Articles and blog posts that attempt to answer this question appear on a regular basis. The explanation they provide for this phenomenon is usually an exercise in inanity of major proportions. Here is the most recent example:
The obvious question is why so few men are interested in dating women their own age. . . The reasons older men chase younger women have less to do with sex and everything to do with a profound desire to reassure ourselves that we’ve still got “it.” “It” isn’t just physical attractiveness; “it” is the whole masculine package of youth, vitality, and, above all else,possibility. It’s not that women our own age are less attractive, it’s that they lack the culturally-based power to reassure our fragile, aging egos that we are still hot and hip and filled with potential. Inspiring desire in women young enough to be our daughters becomes the most potent of all anti-aging remedies, particularly when we can show off our much younger dates to our peers.
Leave it to somebody born and raised in a Puritanical society to get into a rush to reassure everybody that relationships between men and women cannot possibly be based on anything related to human sexuality.
So let us cut through this pseudo-psychological blabber about peers and egos and look for the real reasons behind this phenomenon that Hugo Schwyzer, the author of this article, chose to ignore.
The sad truth about sexual desire is that, in terms of age, it does not develop equally in men and women. Men normally experience the peak of their sexuality in their twenties, at the latest. In the meanwhile, their 20-year-old female peers are not all that interested in sex. For a variety of cultural and physiological reasons, female sexuality awakens and reaches its peak much later. Forty and fifty-year old women are significantly more interested in sex than 20-year-olds.
Male sexuality, however, begins to fade in men’s late forties and fifties. The reasons for that are also socially constructed to a great degree, and we can discuss that later if people are interested. So where does a man go when he realizes that he cannot satisfy the sexual demands of his female peers? Obviously, he often turns to 20-year-old women who don’t need or want a lot of sex. Relationships with much younger women are simply a way for many men to conceal from themselves and women of their age the waning sexual potency they often experience as they move into their 50s and 60s.
P.S. I hope it’s clear from the post that I’m not talking about situations when a man falls in love with a woman who happens to be younger. I’m talking specifically about cases where a man chases after women (plural) and a defining criterion of his search for a partner is that the partner should be younger.
Clarissa's Blog 
What psuedo-feminists believe:
Homosexuality is natural and hard wired. We should let gay people be.
Heterosexuality is artificial and socially constructed. We need to tell straight people who to fuck so that they do not offend our political agenda.
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Projections, projections. . . 🙂
It would also be nice not to have people use the silly Dr. Phil’s expression “hard-wired” in discussions of human beings. Can this terminology be taken to a programming blog?
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“It would also be nice not to have people use the silly Dr. Phil’s expression “hard-wired” in discussions of human beings. Can this terminology be taken to a programming blog?”
As a Terminator robot I find this statement very offensive.
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Maybe the kind of men who go after younger women find younger women more attractive than older women.
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The question I was trying to answer is why they find them more attractive.
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Maybe because they are more attractive?
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Here we go again. On this blog, we don’t see “just because” as a valid answer. We are looking for reasons why people find certain things attractive as opposed to other things.
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Youth is synonymous with beauty because men are attracted to the HALLMARKS OF FERTILITY. Just how we evolved. That’s not to say some women can’t age really well. It’s important to note that what men and women are generally attracted differs pretty considerably, which is why women’s attractiveness will wane as they age while the same doesn’t hold true for men. By the time women hit their mid-30s or early 40s they’re in for a rude awakening if they’ve been relying on their looks all their lives, whereas for guys this can be the time they’re the most attractive they’ve ever been due to their rising STATUS (all things being equal).
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And another defender of evopsych baloney. Can I be spared these inanities on my blog?
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I have asked this same question on a male dominated message board, and a whole stampede of them claim that they like younger women because youth=beauty, plain and simple. Not trying to say your ideas are wrong here. You make a strong point about sexual peaks in men and women and that probably does play a part, that lots of men may not even realize or just not want to admit.
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“I have asked this same question on a male dominated message board, and a whole stampede of them claim that they like younger women because youth=beauty, plain and simple.”
-Here we are not looking for plain and simple trivialities but, rather, search for explanations of why X = Y.
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“I have asked this same question on a male dominated message board, and a whole stampede of them claim that they like younger women because youth=beauty, plain and simple.”
Keep in mind: All people on the internet are awful and gross.
“The reasons for that are also socially constructed to a great degree, and we can discuss that later if people are interested.”
Okay we should.
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May I add that this message board I went to was full of men in their late 20s and early 30s “chasing 18 year old tail” as they put it, and possibly younger but they just didn’t mention that for fear of Chris Hansen standing by.
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Of course, there are quite a few sad cases where male sexuality begins to fade as early as the late 20s. 😦
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I think that in my old age, I am going to be one of those horny old women who chases after much younger men and women, because I find curiosity, above all other traits, to be incredibly sexy, of which young people are brimming full. There’s no denying the sexiness of someone who is willing to explore and doesn’t get stuck in a routine, sexual or otherwise.
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I don’t agree with Hugo’s egos explanation, though it plays a part sometimes, but I can’t agree with yours post that this is the central reason either. May be it plays a part too, imho on level less than Hugo’s, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and rather than think that all those men have fading sexuality in the late 20ies, I’ll take their word on it that they think:
(now comes what I heard, not what I think is true about women their age or younger ones)
– young women are more beautiful
– young women are “less jaded” by failed relationships, more trusting & open
– young women are “more pure” with less former sexual partners (but if an older woman has zero or close to it number of former partners, it means she has problems and doesn’t love sex, a woman to avoid)
– young women are easier to mold into what you want
Unfortunately, I could never feel attracted to much older men (>10 years older) and would prefer ideally somebody my own age (+5 … -5 interval). And it’s not only because of sex. Could never see (~10 years) older men as sexual partners.
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Had I been a man, my age preference would seem as natural and even not high standards by both genders, including potential partners, but, as a woman, it’s harder.
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I am only attracted to men of my age. And it never caused any problems. 🙂 🙂
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“Unfortunately, I could never feel attracted to much older men (>10 years older) and would prefer ideally somebody my own age (+5 … -5 interval)”
-What’s so unfortunate about that? 🙂 Relationships among people of the same generation are great because they have the same frame of references / are at the same developmental stage / have approximately the same level of energy.
” I’ll take their word on it that they think”
-I won’t. 🙂 People have an incredible capacity to lie to themselves when they don’t want to accept unpleasant truths. 🙂
“all those men have fading sexuality in the late 20ies”
-Who are “all those men”? Have you really met all that many men who specifically chase after younger women? I can only think of one such man I used to know. He’d travel to Cuba to buy underage prostitutes.
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I don’t talk of underage prostitutes, but of seeing women their exact age as too old for them.
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I think you are right Clarissa, but I also think that it is necessary to distinguish between different ranges of ages and the gap inbetween them.
I think there is a different dynamic between someone who a 50 years old and a 30 years old, then between a 26 years old and a 16 years old (which is legal here, by the way, so don’t pile me).
I think you are more right the older the men in your example get, but with younger men a glaring factor is the (often perceived) difference in sexual experience. I know lots of men who think that they are supposed to be the one running the show and as a consequence need to know more about having sex.
Now, we all know the rampant lie that all the other people have more and better sex all the fucking time, except us, of course. And I think that is a reason why they may be looking out for younger, and thus hopefully less experienced women.
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“Running the show” with an inexperienced, confused, probably disinterested partner must be a lot of work. This must mean that sexual enjoyment is not the primary reason a man seeks such a relationship. And if at this age sexual enjoyment is not the central goal, this sounds like a definite problem with the sexual function.
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OK, this is killing me. It is “uninterested” not “disinterested” and sorry, I can’t help it, Grammar Nazi, we all have our failings. “Disinterestedness” is a positive thing, meaning to have no agenda. Such as giving charity disinterestedly, not because you want everyone to know what an a ltruist you are. Or giving disinterested advice, such as this (I think it’s disinterested, got nothing to gain, have I?) “Uninterested” is how the woman at the bar with a man’s hand creeping into the small of her back feels. Oh wait. That’s disgusted.
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Also, I start to be able to recognize Schwyzers writing by just reading an excerpt.
I thought “Is that him? I bet it is”. And then I clicked the Link and I was right!
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Contrariwise, I once read an article that Hugo Schwyzer linked to from his Twitter account. It was actually pretty good. “Maybe Hugo’s not such a terrible writer after all” I thought. Then I realized it wasn’t actually written by Hugo, he just linked to it.
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I think the truth is more complex than either Hugo Schwyzer or Clarrisa describe, either of these dating preferences would generally not lead to long term relationships.
I think men that actually want a long term relationship look for women of a similar age.
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The average age of first marriage for a woman in the United States is 26.5. For a man, it’s 28.4. So while it’s true that the average man marries a younger woman, we’re talking a couple years, not a couple decades.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_at_first_marriage
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I find these kind of constant conversations totally rediculous. Young women are desire able over a whole huge raft of different reasons in a way that MEN find them desirable. It has very, very, very little bearing upon what age the man happens to be. Why on earth are there not endless conversations seeking the obscure reasons why men of 19 or twenty like girls of 18, because, though you may have difficulty getting a grasp of it, it is not altogether totally different, other than young men tend to be immature quite often. I am almost fifty years of age and I find the idea of having a 50 year old woman as a partner, as obscure and weird as I did when I was 17. I naturally converse with younger women. I would have little natural inclination to talk with an elderly lady unless I needed to know the answer to a question, just the same as when I was twenty. If you want to know and understand all of the complex reasons why an older man likes young women, understand the reasons why the younger man does also. Then you will have the answers.
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John, your hormonal dysfunction or lack thereof is of zero interest to anybody here. Inflicting your physiology onto the notice of complete strangers is both rude and creepy. Haven’t you got any friends to share all this melodrama with?
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I find these kind of constant conversations totally rediculous. Young women are desire able over a whole huge raft of different reasons in a way that MEN find them desirable. It has very, very, very little bearing upon what age the man happens to be. Why on earth are there not endless conversations seekinobscure reasons why men of 19 or twenty like girls of 18, because, though you may have difficulty getting a grasp of it, it is not altogether totally different, other than young men tend to be immature quite often. I am almost fifty years of age and I find the idea of having a 50 year old woman as a partner, as obscure and weird as I did when I was 17. I naturally converse with younger women. I would have little natural inclination to talk with an elderly lady unless I needed to know the answer to a question, just the same as when I was twenty. If you want to know and understand all of the complex reasons why an older man likes young women, understand the reasons why the younger man does also. Then you will have the answers.
Clarissa, your poison pen character assassination of weird plucked from the ether daft assumptions of someone you admit you do not know, as a response to a qualified contribution to a discussion, speaks for itself. I have no problems either with hormonal balance, nor with people I choose to associate with, nor with much else, except for ignorant people.
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And you decided to copy-paste the whole boring story for what reason, exactly? 🙂 Because you find it cute or something?
That’s just sad, man.
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Lol burn!
It’s amazing that older gross creeps not only impose their foulness on young women…but they don’t seem to realize they’re creepy and perceived as gross?
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All I can add to this conversation is that for those men who hate and disparage women, this state of mind is not compatible with happy heterosexuality. The age old agenda, to separate a male’s capacity to have sex from his emotional involvement with the “object” of his sexual desire is doomed because it just doesn’t make any sense in the first place. After this failure comes rationalisation.
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JFA I am not sure what you mean here, would you mind expanding your thoughts a bit?
This chasing young women seems to be a form of objectification to me. The men that do it don’t seem to have a plan for what happens after they have caught the object of their desire.
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I have to start work shortly, but I did a quick search for “masculinity” on my blog and this was one of the first entries I opened, which has some resonances with Clarissa’s views in the post above. http://unsanesafe.blogspot.com/2009/05/its-merely-sign-of-depths-of-depravity.html
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Not objectification, please! We can only be objects of other people’s actions and nothing else. This isn’t offensive or wrong. It’s just grammar.
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I don’t have time to expand my concepts here, but the issue of separating sexual desire from emotional interest is what I am on about. My ideas may be hard to follow as they are not mainstream.
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Men normally experience the peak of their sexuality in their twenties, at the latest. In the meanwhile, their 20-year-old female peers are not all that interested in sex.
– If that’s the case shouldn’t we be seeing the majority of men in their 20s pairing up with women in their 40s and 50s? Why do they (for the most part) still prefer to be with women within their own age group?
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“If that’s the case shouldn’t we be seeing the majority of men in their 20s pairing up with women in their 40s and 50s?”
-And for sexual purposes huge numbers of men do.
“Why do they (for the most part) still prefer to be with women within their own age group?”
-“Be” for sexual fulfillment or “be” in a relationship? These are very different things.
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Also, when you say:
“So where does a man go when he realizes that he cannot satisfy the sexual demands of his female peers? Obviously, he often turns to 20-year-old women who don’t need or want a lot of sex.”
Couldn’t we then make the same argument for women? So women in their 20s cannot satisfy their male peers because of mismatched libidos, so they must naturally turn to men whose sexual appetites match theirs, that is, men in their 40s and 50s.
According to this model of sexual behavior the majority of heterosexual relationships should primarily be of two kinds: older man/younger woman and older woman/younger man. I just don’t see this happening often enough.
Also, if this model is indeed true, I guess those men are doing something right by seeking out partners whose sexual appetites closely match their own. I imagine those kind of sexual relationships would work perfectly for both people involved.
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“So women in their 20s cannot satisfy their male peers because of mismatched libidos, so they must naturally turn to men whose sexual appetites match theirs, that is, men in their 40s and 50s.”
-Of course. That’s exactly how it works. Which is why the idea of relationships between older men and younger women being exploitative is silly.
“According to this model of sexual behavior the majority of heterosexual relationships should primarily be of two kinds: older man/younger woman and older woman/younger man. ”
-Most people manage to become aware of their sexual issues and resolve them in different ways. Here we are talking about a segment of the population that is completely unaware of how their physiology works. Also, younger women who are not that interested in sex need to get other bonuses from those relationships. Such bonuses are not of the kind that all that many older men can provide.
“Also, if this model is indeed true, I guess those men are doing something right by seeking out partners whose sexual appetites closely match their own. I imagine those kind of sexual relationships would work perfectly for both people involved.”
-Of course.
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One aspect researchers are looking at in regards to men and attraction is that of testosterone and age. As we get older testosterone begins a slow decrease in men, this hormone is one of the main driving forces of male sexuality. I cannot find the reference right now but one study suggest that novel and younger women seem to increase the testosterone levels in aging men. Testosterone is connected with enhancing many of our senses such as taste, smell and sight. So in essence this seems to make men “feel” more alive and vibrant. Also shown in the study, this increase is temporary. That is probably one reason why there are so many regrets of men who give up the love of their life for a new love in their life only to find out that they were fooled by their hormones.
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That’s exactly what I’m saying, only said a little differently. 🙂
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I am not sure that women reach their sexual ‘peak’ later than men, in their late 30s or in their 40s. This may be a social construct.
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Of course, this happens because of the way we are socially conditioned. It happens, though.
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I am afraid that this is one of the places where, in spite of your disaffection, evolutionary psychology plays a huge role. Men, like all creatures, have a powerful urge to reproduce, biologically. A woman in her sixties is not likely to be a successful partner in this enterprise, so pursuing younger women makes perfect sense.
I say this as a 67 year old who is has been married for two years to a woman of 65 years, so I am not trying to justify any behaviour of my own. I am very much in love with my wife.
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So you are saying that the majority of 60-year-olds would be happy to get a bunch of 20-year-olds pregnant? 🙂 Something tells me that the absolute majority of men will see that as a complete disaster.
Evopsych fails to take into account that human beings have completely divorced sexuality from reproduction a very very long time ago. For the greatest parts of their lives, people do all they can to ensure that sex does not result in reproduction. Instead, sex has a variety of crucial physiological and psychological functions.
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But these aren’t men looking to reproduce. For the most part, they’re looking to fuck. The question is why men want to fuck women so much younger than them, not knock them up.
Plus, it’s the species as a whole that has “a powerful urge to reproduce, biologically,” not men as a subgroup of the species. And while humans are animals with certain animalistic traits I think it’s obvious that we’re qualitatively different from any other species on earth in terms of our social structures and cognitive faculties, so I don’t much see the point in going “well humans are like all creatures in that [X]” without some serious qualifications. Human desire’s a complicated mess all cobbled together from psychological and cultural influences as well as biological.
P.S.: Evo-psych, at least as far as my own encounters with it have gone, is reductive post-Lacanian baloney that has all but completely misinterpreted sociobiology.
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Correction: “why SOME men want to fuck women younger than them.” Obviously, you’re not part of this group of men.
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“But these aren’t men looking to reproduce. For the most part, they’re looking to fuck. ”
-Or, rather, they want to look like they still fuck when they don’t really do much of that any more. 🙂 🙂
“Evo-psych, at least as far as my own encounters with it have gone, is reductive post-Lacanian baloney that has all but completely misinterpreted sociobiology.”
-Exactly!
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Sexuality fills many other roles besides reproduction for humans; also for bonobos. But this is very different from saying that we no longer have any biological urges. We do often choose not to act on them, but saying they do not exist is not at all reasonable. It is somewhat like saying that gravity does not apply to humans, since we have built airplanes and spacecraft.
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“But this is very different from saying that we no longer have any biological urges.”
-Did I ever say anything like that? All I said was that human beings have divorced human sexuality from reproduction a long time ago. Often, 70-year-olds have happier and more vigorous sex lives that 20-year-olds. Actually, the decade of the 20s is often the saddest and emptiest for people sexually.
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People have urges. This is true. The question is, why (some) older men have the urge to fuck younger women in particular.
It’s probably worth taking into account that even among these men, there seems to be a lot of concern about appearance. It isn’t just “young women.” It’s “young HOT women” that these men want. Figuring out why, therefore, is going to require thought about standards of beauty, which are hugely influenced by culture.
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“It’s “young HOT women” that these men want. ”
-If you have no other use for her, at least she should be nice to look at. 🙂
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What I am saying is that your phrase “completely divorced” means something much stronger than is really true. It means to me that they have nothing to do with each other at all.
I do think the biological urges account for a large part of older men’s interest in younger women.
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“I do think the biological urges account for a large part of older men’s interest in younger women.”
No. No no no. Not JUST younger women. Younger women who meet whatever standard of beauty these men desire. Youth may be part of that standard but it is not the whole thing. Beauty is subjective and its standard is influenced to a great degree by culture and psychology.
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Is there any evidence that older men are happy to reproduce on a massive scale rather than horrified to?
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Then why do men feel so annoyed when women try to look younger than their age? I myself find it annoying that women try to fool men by looking younger. This is an instinctive reaction; I do not think it affects my actual behaviour, but the feeling is unmistakable and reliable. I feel really offended by advertisements that offer products that claim to do this, for example skin creams, cosmetics, etc.
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“Then why do men feel so annoyed when women try to look younger than their age?”
-Honestly, this is the very first time in my life I hear about such a sentiment. If this does happen, then the reason can be that men don’t have the same means to look younger readily available to them and they are annoyed at the unfairness.
” I myself find it annoying that women try to fool men by looking younger. ”
-I’m very surprised to hear such an anti-women statement from you, David. Fool men? What makes you think that women use creams and cosmetics to fool men? Or that the use of cosmetics has anything to do with men at all? I’m a huge fan of creams, facial masks and cosmetics. And I do look much younger than my age. This doesn’t prevent me from talking about my age all the time here on the blog.
So who is it I’m trying to fool with my creams and cosmetics?? 🙂
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“Think” has little or nothing to do with it. I am referring to instinctive emotions that are far below the level of social conditioning. Probably, many men will not admit to having them. Naturally looking younger than ones age is wonderful. Faking it evokes this emotional response in me. I would be surprised if it did not do so in other men. But, as usual, it seems to be emotionally dangerous for men to admit their feelings.
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May be it’s just you? If men are so annoyed, why do many expect their GFs to use make-up to look good, sometimes even pressure to have a cosmetic surgery to enlarge breasts or “lift” a face?
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Does this really happen? I have often tried to talk women out of such things.
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Pressure or great approval of surgeries, yes sometimes.
Expecting to wear make-up, shape eyebrows (making them thinner), etc, yes. AM even wrote several times how many men say they love natural look, but look at women with “natural” make-up.
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“Expecting to wear make-up, shape eyebrows (making them thinner), etc, yes. AM even wrote several times how many men say they love natural look, but look at women with “natural” make-up.”
-I’ve lived for many years, met many men, and not a single one ever exhibited any awareness of the thickness of women’s brows. I really don’t want this thread to turn into a collection of myths about bad horrible men who pressure women into whatever. If a couple exists in a dynamic where one person is controlling the other person’s looks, it’s the dynamic they both chose and enjoy for whatever reason. That’s a discussion for a completely different thread.
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“If men are so annoyed, why do many expect their GFs to use make-up to look good, sometimes even pressure to have a cosmetic surgery to enlarge breasts or “lift” a face”
– This is all mythology. Most people choose cosmetic surgery and makeup with absolutely no pressure from their partners.
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“I’ve lived for many years, met many men, and not a single one ever exhibited any awareness of the thickness of women’s brows”
One time I was running late for a family wedding and on last mirror check I realized I had kind of a unibrow thing going on that I didn’t much care for but there was no time to pluck so I figured I’d go in real careful with a leg razor and long story short my dad and brother had a real good laugh.
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OMG, you are such a victim of patriarchal objectification, Helena! 🙂
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The urge to reproduce is the initial motivation. This is only later tempered by other considerations when the encounter progresses.
But, yes, I think older men, especially those with no children, have a strong urge to reproduce. I do myself; but I have given it up as impossible.
I have known women who have faked [lied about] pregnancies which they hoped would scare such men away [not me; these women were not my lovers.] They were almost always shocked when the men were thrilled that they might become fathers.
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“The urge to reproduce is the initial motivation. This is only later tempered by other considerations when the encounter progresses.”
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAseriously?
I mean, just to state the obvious: how do gay people fit into this crazy logic? You do know that there’s a cliche about older gay men lusting after fey pretty boys too, right?
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That’s actually easy one. Their switch is turned on male, instead of female, but other manly impulses remain, such as looking for young partners.
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Yeah but my point is that if homosexuality even exists then how can anyone still make the claim that desire is about reproduction first?
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Exactly.
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@Helena
Well, eventually even the gay people will start offering it up for procreation. If not their toast. 😉
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Artificial inseminatory possibilities notwithstanding, I think straights like my dad have been doing just fine pumping out more gays. 🙂
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“Yeah but my point is that if homosexuality even exists then how can anyone still make the claim that desire is about reproduction first?”
Depends on what you mean by “about”.
People evolved to have sexual desires because horny people have more sex, and more sex means more reproduction. However, when people feel sexual desire, they are not subconsciously trying to reproduce.
An anology can be made to huger. Hunger people evolved to have hunger because people who don’t get hungry die of starvation. But when people are hungry, it’s not because they fear starving. They just want to eat. You can feel hungry without knowing that eating is necessary for survival, just as you can be horny without knowing that sex makes babies.
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You have the right to be interested in evopsych and believe its tenets. I, however, believe that it’s a pseudo science and find it to be reductive, simplistic and boring.
If people have no use for my explanations and prefer evopsych, that’s up to them. I’d like my website to be free of evopsych musings if possible.
Thank you for understanding.
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Evolution is not teleological. All biological forms and traits begin as very tiny random mutations in gene structures that manifest in physiological and/or cognitive changes at the micro or macro level, depending on the nature of the gene(s) and the mutation. If they prove useful to a creature’s survival in its ecosystem, or (this is important) do not present problems to survival, the mutations themselves survive and over very long stretches of time may become phylogenetic (as long as something doesn’t destroy all the creatures that possess the trait or form). The original mutations may even mutate into different forms and traits, but they’ll do so slowly, randomly, one generation at at time, and only as much as they help or do not hinder the survival of the creature(s) who posses(es) the form or trait. Evolution doesn’t happen “because” or “for” anything, unless you maybe count things that directly affect genes like radiation.
If nature is “about” anything, it is variation, not reduction. Get this through your skulls, evo-psych people.
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Instead of “over very long stretches of time” it’s more accurate to say “over multiple generations”. But you get the idea.
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Like the general trend in contemporary culture, evolutionary psychology seems to be designed to finesse the human relationship aspect out of human relationships. It neatly replaces religion in this regard, assigning a role to each gender which is implicitly understood and embraced prior to any interactions.
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Very true. It offers a very simple and basic way of explaining the world, which reduces the stress of feeling lost in the vastness and variety of human difference. Of course, this entire way of reasoning falls apart under even the most cursory analysis, but who cares?
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[evo psych.] offers a very simple and basic way of explaining the world, which reduces the stress of feeling lost in the vastness and variety of human difference.
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Ah, you mean that evolutionary protectionism will take over even in the modern world. 🙂
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Don’t know what you are talking about. I am a Terminator robot.
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Also, the “fittest to survive” are (tautologically) those who survive. There is no moral equivalence in evolutionary outcomes. Or if there is, it is at best indirect and most probably unperceived and therefore unappreciated.
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Yep. The mistake of attributing moral equivalence is what made those activists dump cold water on poor E. O. Wilson’s head.
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Which activists are those? The reason I’m not a keen admirer of ideologies that predominantly bestow biological causes as the reason for human behaviour, is that so much of what it justified as “natural” and “human nature”, I did not grow up with at all. For instance, gender roles are entirely different in this society than the one I grew up in. One important difference is that women were more morally authoritative in that old-fashioned society than they are today. Nowadays, they are less “spirit” and more “body”, if that makes any sense.
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The argument from evolutionary biology, properly understood, answers questions like “why society and culture at all?” not “what specific forms ought society and culture take?” It is a rigorous scientific explanation of the phenomenon of socialization, not an excuse to assert specific social and cultural systems as natural and essential to all humans or some group of humans perceived to share similar traits. It just gets abused like that a lot by people who don’t understand it very well.
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Here is an interesting illustration of cultural differences in gender relations:
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Why is there pee?
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I am trying to think of how your theory might apply to a recently sacked (hopefully for good) Italian Prime Minister…
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Berlusconi has been sacked?? I’ve snoozed through everything.
This is what happens when you stop following the news for a few days.
Has something else of importance happened in the world while I’ve been snoozing?
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OK, then please don’t follow the news for a while more, who knows, he may end up in jail…
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Hee hee hee. 🙂 I had no idea I was that powerful.
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Hey, it may be a long shot but… we are talking desperation here…
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You really hate him, eh? I’m sure it’s richly deserved.
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I always assumed three things about men
1. Men have a very narrow range of what they find attractive. Attractive= skinny, well-endowed, and younger than they are.
2. Men aren’t interested in anyone over 25. If they are interested in anyone who doesn’t met 1 and 2, they are probably creepy or playing a practical joke.
3. Men aren’t really interested in what a person they want to screw thinks. If they are interested in what a woman is thinking, they aren’t interested in her romantically.
I don’t date, I just observe. I can’t afford make-up or cute clothes, both of which are required.
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I sincerely hope this is meant as a joke. Otherwise, it makes me too sad for you. I hope nobody really has such a tragic, limited and reductive worldview.
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None of that is true.
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I can’t answer completely in response to pgp, because my situation obviously varies. I am fortunate enough to be married to an ape, which means he likes me any way at all and in all sorts of seasons.
I think the thing defined as “men” in the list above must be some kind of entity that has no mind. I don’t get it. What is the advantage in not having a mind? Does it improve the intelligence or something??
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“I don’t date, I just observe.”
It looks like what you’re observing is television. When you get to really know people
you find out they’re quite complicated.
“I can’t afford make-up or cute clothes, both of which are required”
This is a very capitulative attitude. You can find some awesome stuff if you put in the time looking around secondhand stores and taking advantage of sales.
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I’m sure there are quite a few forms that evolutionary biology could take. It seems speculative rather than definitive, to me. Nonetheless, there must be general principles that are capable of being observed. One of these is that society is something categorically distinct from whatever might be understood as a state of nature. What follows from this is that whatever is generally agreed WITHIN SOCIETY as to what a “state of nature” consists with regard to humans, the ACTUAL state of nature with regard to humans must almost certainly have applications way beyond what is perceived of it in principle.
After all, “nature” works out its means on a different level from human consciousness.
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My husband formulated the sentence: “Why dost I find not also shit?”
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Why do my profile pics continue to change? They make me dizzy!
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I thought you were the one who changed them.
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Clarissa: I didn’t make the culture, I just live in it.
Profacero: Keep in mind, I am generalizing from a very specific group: white American males between 25-30. I’ve noticed that Hispanic men tend to be a little broader-minded. That or they think I’m their neighbor 😀
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“generalizing from a very specific group”
Yep. See your problem right there. Maybe don’t do that.
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If you don’t like a certain group, why not hang out with a different group? It’s like some people look for reasons to be miserable.
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Then you should choose to live in a different part of this culture. Remember, it was your choice and nobody else’s to surround yourself with this type of men. You can make a different choice today.
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If you don’t like a certain group, why not hang out with a different group?
Clarissa, you don’t think all “white American males between 25-30” are like that, do you?
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Of course not. 🙂
It will be a sad day for me if I ever come to despise a huge group of people in this way.
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I still doubt it even about that group. But try younger, older, Black, Asian, Native American, etc. if this is really true. Or someone who’s not a frag guy type, maybe.
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I hate those males. I pee on their deformed heads.
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Lol.
You and Hugo are basically saying the same thing – namely that this “phenomenon” is down to some male ego trip and has nothing to do with men being attracted to younger women.
This page needs to be saved for later generations and historians together with ideas like why eating beetroots prevents HIV or why 9/11 was caused by homosexuals.
Such evidence will help explain to post apocalyptic civilizations why this one destroyed itself. That way at least something good may come out of it.
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Wow, I’m surely powerful, I can destroy an entire civilization with my blog posts. I now feel very important.
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Please don’t destroy my civilization, Clarissa! On balance, I like it better than I would a paleolithic or bronze age culture.
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OK, since you asked nicely, I’ll try not to. 🙂 I’m always willing to accommodate my readers.
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Ah, the wealth of useful knowledge in this post is “indescribable”.
I should go sailing because now I’ve learned that the wind will blow the way that suits me best and if it isn’t, well then it should (Hugo) or society has just indoctrinated it to blow unfavorably or I could just declare that it is in fact blowing favorably and use sarcasm to brush off any suggestion that it might not be (that’ll teach those oppressive dolphins trying to pull my boat to safety without my consent).
All these techniques will surely be more useful than accepting that I cannot control the wind but I can learn to adapt so that, as a good sailor, I can get where I want regardless of what way the wind is blowing. Gosh I was so blinded by my dumb male ego that I believed that.
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Honestly, I don’t understand a word of this comment. And I analyze texts for a living. 🙂
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Clarissa: I don’t hang out with them, it’s just I end up in certain places where white men tend to accumulate. I haven’t been able to damage my hearing to the point where I’ll consider rap to be music, I don’t want to live in an unsafe area, and I don’t speak Spanish well enough to blend in. *Shrug* I think I’m just too practical for romance.
Profacero: Again, don’t make enough money to date. Maybe I’ll consider it once I can afford the required gear. (Any man who says ‘I like women who don’t wear makeup or dress up for dates’ is just making mouth noises as far as I’m concerned.)
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Then try to end up in different kinds of places. There must be something that draws you to jerks for some reason. That’s what needs to be addressed.
Or, alternatively, you can project your own unhappy choices onto the universe. That can be fun, too.
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Helena: Because my pay is pretty unpredictable, some weeks I can’t even afford sales stuff.
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Nobody buys clothes and makeup every week. Usually two purchases per year do it.
In any case, the person who loves you will prefer to have you around with no clothes at all. That will allow you to save a lot. 🙂
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Well you don’t buy every week or go to every sale. You just be discriminatory in what you buy when you have a need.
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Clarissa: Most of the concert-goers I’ve met have been pretty nice people. It’s just that I don’t look like the women they want to date. And I never will.
And you might also want to consider that men, whatever they say, don’t want a relationship of equals. They want to be smarter, or more experienced, or richer, than their partner, so they have some control. That’s why men usually go for women younger than they are.
An older man will have more money than a younger woman, so he’ll have a bit of control over her. Women, in turn, usually marry older men in order to advance socially. In some cases, May-December marriages happen because the man wants someone to take care of him, and the woman wants to take care of someone, but doesn’t want to have children. Either way, there’s no romance there.
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“And you might also want to consider that men, whatever they say, don’t want a relationship of equals. They want to be smarter, or more experienced, or richer, than their partner, so they have some control. ”
-We only find in life whatever we are looking for. I was raised to believe that all men want women who are superior, more in charge, stronger, smarter, more resourceful than them. As a result, I kept encountering this kind of men during my entire life. This was pure confirmation bias. I needed to believe that all men were pathetic, clingy weaklings and I kept encountering evidence of that wherever I turned. This, of course, had nothing to do with men but only with my skewed perspective.
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I believe that could be how it works for the majority, who play the “dating” game by conventional rules since they lack the capacity to innovate.
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I have a feeling if you said on this blog, “Males are quite welcome to chase younger women. ‘Feminists’ don’t care what you do with your personal lives, as long as it doesn’t harm anyone”, you would take the wind out of a lot of sails.
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‘I have a feeling if you said on this blog, “Males are quite welcome to chase younger women. ‘Feminists’ don’t care what you do with your personal lives, as long as it doesn’t harm anyone”, you would take the wind out of a lot of sails.’
– I thought that was implied. 🙂 But yes, if this helps, I agree 100%. 🙂
Hear this, people? Everybody should feel free to do whatever they want in their personal life with consenting adults. And I will feel free to blog about whatever I want. 🙂 🙂
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hahahahaha. The rising status thing… is it enough to pin one’s hopes on?
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I made fun of this kind of argument in my very first month as a blogger. I can’t believe people still use this load of baloney to console themselves for getting older.
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Cool. I will check it out. I am staying up late to give a tutoring session, so I have fifteen minutes to spare.
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an older man likes younger women because women his age remind him he is getting old …fragile all that great stuff with aging…Menopause sweet menopause I have very little to no sexual desire at all~
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Hate to burst any psycho babble bubbles, here goes. Most men that I know (including myself) have concluded that women are insane relative to men. That leaves vagina. After child birth, a most woman’s vaginas become a soggy Grand Canyon. There is your reason, don’t shoot the messenger. You should also note that because of womens hyper hypergamous nature, young women will choose to have relationships with these older men (it is their choice).
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Another miserable freak with severe mommy issues. Poor impotent reject.
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Robert, your a joke, even if your pissed and trying to get a rise out of Clarissa this is lame.
How many of these soggy vaginas have you tested? Or is this hearsay from someone you know that has actually had sex?
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This is such a Yankee point of view. The more they listen to their own propaganda they more they send themslves into a downward spiral. It would be very hard to them to realize that nobody’s bubble can be burst by Yankee ideology. There’s no need to shoot (wtf–such a Yankee notion) the messenger, because there is no message. Just a depiction of the downward spiral of Yankee sexuality. But we all heard about that before, and we see all sorts of evidence of it anyway. It’s not a message. Or, it is a message — but without any content.
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I am a man just turned 50 and have a few female friends in their late 20’s early 30’s (mainly grad students). I can’t imagine chasing after them simply because they are so emotionally demanding. Whereas my equally ancient wife is very low maintenance in that regard.
Young women are fine in small doses but if I am going to sit around the house over a long weekend give me somebody who doesn’t need constant attention.
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I think those who comply with social norms lose their sexual drives because sex drives are a measure of one’s overall vitality and enthusaism for life. Over time, men may be inclined to compromise more and with with social expectations about what lifestyle to live and what possessions to own and how to conduct themselves to keep their status in society, which they have been gradually accumulating. By contrast, women will have been gradually learning how to free themselves from the oppressive contraints of mind-numbing gender roles. The more successful they are in this,the greater will be their sex drive. If the typical life trajectory for me is toward greater conformity and compliance with externally-determined norms, in order to shore up their status, women have a different experience of becoming increasingly indifferent to social status, realizing that it is a trap. Therefore male and female sex drives have different trajectories and peak at different times.
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Exactly, exactly, exactly. Men only too often follow the social mandate which tells them that they need to perform whenever, wherever and with whomever they can. After years of forcing themselves into the sex acts they don’t really need, their libido starts to diminish. OK, I won’t continue because that will just be rewriting what you said. But yes, what you said. 🙂 Agreed completely.
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Yes, but it is also just that men accept convention more because embracing conventional norms give them a very smooth path through society, whereas women get jolted out of their hypnotic state by all sorts of experiences, but most particularly when they follow convention.
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It’s smooth until erectile dysfunction hits. And then the whole world begins to suffer.
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I don’t know enough to say about that, but you very well may be right. There may be a huge cost to pay for blind conformity.
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OK then that explains my periods of low drives … too much social conformity (there is also having been, when I started my blog, in a relationship I did not want but thought I had to stay in, which really did kill a lot of drive, but I knew that; understanding it is about too much conformity in general is my revelation for today).
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The sex drive will come back like a tsunami once you complete your liberation.
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I upset my philosophical interlocutor by waxing lyrical and about the virility of the old style soldier types. To me they evince a sensual and asthetic appeal,, but also a lost sense of a surety that life was trustworthy and worthwhile. This attitude of mine is extremely nonconformist and breaks with universalist notions that everybody else’s good is just as worthwhile as my own.
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Youre so cool! I dont suppose Ive read anything like this before. So nice to find somebody with some original thoughts on this subject. realy thank you for starting this up. this website is something that is needed on the web, someone with a little originality. useful job for bringing something new to the internet!
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