Reader el writes from Israel:
I live near Tel Aviv, so yesterday & today (so far, once per day) we for the 1st time experienced hearing the warning of a rocket. From Gaza rockets were sent to Jerusalem & to Tel Aviv, my favorite city. Today in the morning we heard of the additional “Iron Dome” launcher put to protect the center of the country, and already today it succeeded in preventing a rocket from falling near / in (?) Tel Aviv.
I am more worried about our soldiers, if there’ll be a land operation too. Looks as if it will be, so far.
Citizens of the South have been getting those rockets for years, in “peaceful” times, so many, I guess, don’t want the operation to stop and them being again under fire. That’s also what somebody said on TV.
Also, for some reason, Israeli channel showed Hamas propaganda movie in Hebrew, made specially for us. How we should wait for suicide bombers on our bus stops and in cafes. Why show it, instead of only saying “they encourage suicide bombing again”, as was said on TV (more than before, I guess) ?
Wanted to add that I think very anti-Israeli people don’t understand how much of Israel lives (esp. south), that we are attacked too, not only attack ourselves. That it’s really a war over a house, so to speak.
This is a very scary situation, and I have no idea how it will be resolved. El’s comment tells us a lot about how the people in Israel are feeling right now.
If anybody has any positive prognosis to share, please do so. I want to hope for the best.
Thank you for sharing, el. Stay strong, my friend!
Clarissa's Blog 
Safe wishes to everybody in the midst of the conflict!
Meanwhile, here at home, I am concerned about being a victim of retaliatory violence if things escalate and people start blaming “the Jews” for this, especially if it turns into war. I have Muslim friends who are also concerned about being victims of retaliatory violence as well. I hope everybody remains safe and that this is over soon with a minimal loss of innocent lives.
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The tragedy is that the instigators of such conflicts rarely suffer, yet many many completely innocent civilians do.
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Now I am sorry, I didn’t write more informative one. After watching just now “Israel weekly” I understand much better. If you’re interested in what happens in Israel, this Russian program is highly recommended. It’s only 1 hour a week. Now
More info:
This week Lieberman, Israeli Minister of Foreign Affairs and Deputy Prime Minister, was the guest and he answered why Israel decided to attack. The reasons were
1) to destroy Fajr-5 (long range) rockets, which can reach Tel Aviv & an airport
2) late high activity of Hamas. F.e. on Sunday you could read that “Palestinians Hit Israeli Jeep With Anti-Tank Missile”. 4 were injured, one was them badly.
Thus, Israel decided to restore its’ deterrence and protect its’ citizens.
The 1st step was to
(From the 1st Internet link I found).
Then the air force started bombing rockets and other targets.
Israeli residents living within 40 kilometers (25 miles) from Gaza are under fire the most, of course.
In the program they, as usual, also talked of economics. Since South, the most shot at part, is also the least economically developed part of the country (unlike the center & North), the *economical* damage isn’t that bad. (Of course, I am not talking here of human suffering).
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I will definitely watch the program. I didn’t know how much it could be trusted so I never watched it but now I will since you say it is credible.
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I don’t want to wrongly present myself as authority on politics or programs. I do tend to trust this program since:
1- Every week they invite another politician and ask him / her questions. Of course, the answers depend on politics & ideology, as always.
2 – I don’t see why their economic commentator, who also works as a school teacher (in Israel), would be lying about economics.
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But you live in Israel, so you can judge whether what the program says corresponds to reality.
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“Wanted to add that I think very anti-Israeli people don’t understand how much of Israel lives (esp. south), that we are attacked too, not only attack ourselves.”
I think you seriously underestimate the knowledge of anti-Israeli people, regardless of intensity. If you live in the western world and even glance at the media you will know about HAMAS’s attacks against Israeli civilians. I think instead it’s largely a matter of not seeing it as relevant. HAMAS’s attacks do not remove the rights of the Palestinians to live in peace in their homeland excersising democratic rights any more than Israel’s treatement of the Palestinians removes the right of Israeli people not to be killed in HAMAS attacks.
I hope the current flaring up fizzles with as little suffering and death as possible.
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// the rights of the Palestinians to live in peace in their homeland excersising democratic rights
Since Palestinians still demand the “holy right of return”, to which Israel can’t agree, and numerous attempts at negotiations have failed, many Israelis don’t believe there is a real partner for negotiations.
I, like most Israelis, would be glad to have a Palestinian country as a *peaceful* neighbor, but unfortunately don’t see how it can be possible in my lifetime. For me, better no state for them (meanwhile) than a state that’ll attack us with all new weapons it would get: planes, etc.
Today I saw a post, linking to a YouTube (in Hebrew) of Yitzhak Rabin’s speech of 1994, in which he said “there will be no rockets from gaza”. A quote:
“Already a year, when Gaza strip is mostly under Palestinian Authority. There hasn’t been any katyusha, and it won’t be. … Likud is afraid of peace as much as of death itself.”
Likud, btw, is the ruling party today, to which Netanyahu belongs.
HAMAS’s attacks against Israeli civilians, most likely, are relevant to Israelis’ lack of belief in possibility of peace and to the shift to the right of public opinion.
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“Since Palestinians still demand the “holy right of return”, to which Israel can’t agree, and numerous attempts at negotiations have failed, many Israelis don’t believe there is a real partner for negotiations.”
Of course they do. It IS their right after all. I can say with absolute certainty that were I in the Palestinians’ shoes I would not for a moment consider. The fact that Israel “can’t” respect the Palestinians’ rights show that there is no real partner for negotiations
“For me, better no state for them (meanwhile) than a state that’ll attack us with all new weapons it would get: planes, etc.”
Of course that’s better for you. However it’s pretty clear that without those new weapons for the Palestinians to attack with Israel will not respect Palestinian rights. So that seems the best goal for an outsider with no direct investment in either side to work towards as long as the international community does not have the desire to intervene on the side of the Palestinians.
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//Of course they do. It IS their right after all.
After WW2 other moved peoples settled down and didn’t demand such. (After a generation even stopped having it as a legal right.) One of examples is exiled Jews from Arab countries around Israel. Or do you think they would be taken back today, had they asked?
Israel was created as a democratic and a Jewish country, and it wouldn’t be able to stay this way with 2 millions of Palestinians added. For 2000 years Jews hoped to have their own country again. Nobody among Israeli Jews wants to follow your plan.
Moreover, Palestinians wouldn’t agree to live in one country (with Jewish majority!) with me. They want their own country without any Jews in it. Ask them, if you aren’t sure.
Look at countries around Israel, where existence of different Arab (not Jewish!) groups leads to prosecutions and blood. The best, most practical, most just solution in my opinion is 2 countries side-by-side after agreeing on land swaps. It isn’t possible with the right of return, thus if Palestinians don’t agree to leave this demand, they won’t get it anyway till Israel exists and will hurt their own people, who want a country AND don’t want it with me there.
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“After WW2 other moved peoples settled down and didn’t demand such.”
Someone not excersising a right does not remove it from others. I have supported other groups displaced during that period (especially Karelian Finns) and I will continue to do so. Luckily European integration is allowing this for many of those groups.
“After a generation even stopped having it as a legal right”
Did they? Having an expiration date on rights seems designed for nothing except to make tyrants double down.
“One of examples is exiled Jews from Arab countries around Israel. Or do you think they would be taken back today, had they asked?”
No. But I would support their right to if they did. I have even criticized the US for not making Iraq pass a law to that effect when they were in control there.
“Israel was created as a democratic and a Jewish country, and it wouldn’t be able to stay this way with 2 millions of Palestinians added.”
Then the most basic principle of democracy is that it shouldn’t stay that way.
“Moreover, Palestinians wouldn’t agree to live in one country (with Jewish majority!) with me. They want their own country without any Jews in it. Ask them, if you aren’t sure.”
That’s just as bad as your current position and I would oppose that just as much.
Insisting on the right of return is not the same as expecting you to implement it tomorrow with no regards for your own safety. If Israel had acknowledged the validity of the right of return, but refused to actually act on it while the Palestinians remained hostile then I would not hold that against it. And that would given an actual incentive for the Palestinians to moderate which now seems like nothing more than accepting their rights being trampled.
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//If Israel had acknowledged the validity of the right of return, but refused to actually act on it while the Palestinians remained hostile then I would not hold that against it. And that would given an actual incentive for the Palestinians to moderate …
Do you mean to moderate to agreeing to 2 countries or to moderate to having Israel a bi-national state and Palestinian state with zero Jews near it (Abbas’s words)?
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That depends on wether any Jews driven from the West Bank or Gaza would want to return, or you could demand a single bi-national state though that would give the Palestinian more votes in that single state.
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// That depends on wether any Jews driven from the West Bank or Gaza would want to return,
No, they’re not insane.
Wait, why would Palestinians’ right to return or not depend on what Jews want?
In general, I think your position resembles that of a person saying “I think all people should contribute accorditing to their abilities & get – acc. to their needs, and care about the good of society. I am against people being selfish”. When communism was tried, it led to lots of blood, though.
I mean, it surely makes one feel good to say “I am against all oppression. Everybody should move to where s/he wants” and doesn’t cost much (to you). To think about really solving a problem, with real people & peoples in the picture, is much harder.
Imo, if your ideal solution is
“without those new weapons for the Palestinians to attack with Israel will not respect Palestinian rights”
which I take to mean
“Palestinian weapons will turn Israel into a bi-national state”.
And this solution would lead to seas of blood, and, in case of Israel almost losing, to a nuclear catastrophe, I would advise to rethink it.
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That single state would also have two classes of citizen much like South Africa did.
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“Wait, why would Palestinians’ right to return or not depend on what Jews want?”
It doesn’t. But the Jewish right of return could mean Palestine would not be without Jews either.
“In general, I think your position resembles that of a person saying “I think all people should contribute accorditing to their abilities & get – acc. to their needs, and care about the good of society. I am against people being selfish”. When communism was tried, it led to lots of blood, though.”
That’s a potential result of any stance on any conflict. In this case lot’s of bloodshed is happening already.
“And this solution would lead to seas of blood”
A conflict happens because the victim fights back. That doesn’t make the victim responsible. I would say your solution of dissmissing the idea of respecting Palestinian rights is what could potentially lead to those seas of blood.
“in case of Israel almost losing, to a nuclear catastrophe,”
If Israel was losing then the nuclear solution would mean nuking Jerusalem and Haifa. I don’t think that sounds reasonable. In any case it would be the Palestinians’ place to decide wether that risk is worth it not me.
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You should remember how this discussion started though and that I’m explaining a possible (my) reason for being very anti Isreal, not expecting you to agree with it. For me an Israeli being killed or a Palestinian being killed is equally bad while for you (or a Palestinian) it’s not. Same for Isreali or Palestinian rights being violated.
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The key issue is the right of Israel to exist as a country. Many Arabs do not grant that right. And that is the principal source of instability in the Middle East. Israel is the only stable democracy in the Middle East. And that is something that the west should treasure.
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The Palestinians live under a state of occupation, it is unsurprising that they violently protest against this.
Many Americans were willing to send money to the IRA so that they could violently protest in the UK ( rocket and bomb attacks on the public , politicians and the military). The situation in the occupied territories is no different.
In fact Israel exerts more control over Gaza and the West Bank than the British did over the US before the war of independence. So I find it strange that more Americans don’t empathize with with the Palestinians in their struggle for freedom.
Israel is running out of time, from some points of view it looks like they are running an apartheid state.
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But what do you suggest? What would the solution be?
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Israel has to accept that there will be opponents to its existence and find a pragmatic solution.
The current approach of refusing to deal with its opponents until they accept its right to existence ensures no progress is made and that Hamas and other groups have a steady supply of supporters.
Israel needs to win the hearts and minds of those that just want a life for themselves and their children. They should strike deals with whomever will make this possible. If a future is possible for the occupants of Gaza why would they need violence?
Create housing, create schools, create universities, create jobs, create opportunity, create a climate where violence is not necessary.
After years of refusing to negotiate with terrorists it was this more type of pragmatic approach by the British Government which has brought calm if not complete peace to Northern Island, this all despite the constitutions of both the IRA and Ireland denying that Northern Ireland should exist.
There is absolutely nothing some Palestinian family not part of Hamas can do to stop rockets being fired at Tel Aviv, yet these types of military interventions will likely punish thousands of such families.
The current excuse that Hamas started it by firing rockets trivialises the fact that Israel has occupied these lands for more than 40 years and in doing so has robbed whole generations of people a decent life. It is time to get past this biblical “eye for an eye” thinking and come to a more nuanced solution.
Nobody is completely innocent in this conflict but Israel has the upper hand militarily and financially, thus it can afford to make concessions to drive towards some sort of liveable compromise but instead for years it has taken a “my way or the highway” approach.
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Israel is the only stable democracy in the Middle East. And that is something that the west should treasure.(Charles)
If we would get alternatives to oil your point would be mute.
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The only solution to this issue, which is not unique to this part of the world is a reduction in population. People can and will fight over land. There is nothing inherently noble about this. The bourgeois-liberal concept of independence and/or self-determination is political, not necessarily ethical. Nonetheless we take national independence as an ethical imperative. One could make an argument that ethics and national self-determination are necessarily combined, but nobody seems to bother. It’s just assumed.
Also a big thumbs down to those who post pictures of dead children and demand that I should feel guilty about this “as a Westerner”, or that I must feel duty bound to oppose Obama as the instigator of such mayhem. Not only does this approach cloud a lot of issues by combining them inappropriately, it also makes the assumption that I should identify as a nationalist, or Westerner, and that I have amazing powers to change the course of history. None of this is true.
Nationalist moralists, I have found, are not the wisest human beings, nor are they they kindest, or the most ethical. They just have a thing for bourgeois democracy. They want it imposed, and then get temporarily sad if it isn’t — but not too sad. They easily forget if things don’t work out as anticipated — for instance if war continued in Africa long after the white regimes are removed.
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@JE: are you writing to us from Palestine?
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Hamas has to be eliminated for any kind of peace process to begin
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Israel needs to stop occupying these territories if it doesn’t want Hamas to be labeled freedom fighters.
I would be kind of happy to see a one state solution, then Israel would have to either decide to actually admit running an apartheid state or give these dispossessed people some basic rights.
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Many people on both sides want a peace that’s more or less feasible (either two states or some kind of federal one state) (okay the federal part is wishful thinking on my part).
Those in charge (on both sides) don’t want that to happen. Those in charge (on both sides) either
a. want all the land and are not willing to share it. There’s no compromise or negotiation possible when that’s the case. There’s just an eternal holding pattern until one side manages to expell the other. It’s not nice but it’s how primate groups in conflict behave.
b. have a vested interest in keeping peace far, far away and consistently act in a way so as to ensure that it, in fact, stays far, far away.
Another big problem of course is there’s no one on the Palestinian side who can deliver compliance on the ground with any particular agreement reached. Negotiating in that case is pointless. Tied to that there’s no reason to negotiate with someone who does not accept your existence, why should they actually comply with any agreement if they don’t except that you exist? I fully support not negotiating with Hamas until they learn the rules of diplomacy and negotiation.
The Palestinians face two problems :
– Arab governments who like to use them as a diversion from their own incompetence and corruption. Many Palestinians would gladly shake the dust from their heels and start over elsewhere if they could but they’re not allowed to by their ‘allies’. With ‘friends’ like Arab governments, who needs enemies?
– Foolish enablers from the west who treat them like children and make excuses for their behavior (which would not be allowed in any other political conflict anywhere in the world).
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You are right.It is amazing the marxists of europe support reactionary,homophobic hamas and the excuses keep coming
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If that type of thinking was applied to the IRA we would still be waiting for them to decommission all their weapons before discussions could take place. Fortunately the British government eventually saw that the pragmatic approach was to negotiate towards that end.
Proxy, you are aware that Israel only exists because the Jewish people were given Arab land? Do you think it was the Arabs that lived on that land that handed it over?
Eventually China will need the oil in that region (more than the US who are headed for oil independence in the next few years) when that happens the Chinese will deal with the area on the basis of who can sell them oil. Israel needs to have made peace with its neighbors by then.
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Is it only me or does anyone else find it nauseating that people would find it appropriate to proclaim their anti-Israel sentiments in this particular thread. When a person writes to us from the actual war zone, after hearing rocket warnings and fearing for her life, as well as the lives of others, one has to be an animal to start proclaiming anti anything. How desensitized have you people become? If you are unable to offer words of support or encouragement, go find a political blog and debate there. When a person is going through the scariest situation one can only envision, how dare you to start arguing with them from the comfort of your comfy couch? El is not a politician, she is someone who is actually living through a situation, about which you watch on tv and read in newspapers. Have some compassion, people.
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Sister, will you offer support and encouragement to the people of Gaza as well? I feel awful about everyone who has been killed and injured so far, and I hope the violence will stop, and soon. I also support the right of the Jewish people to live in peace and freedom wherever they want to. But I support exactly the same right for the Palestinians, who are the indigenous people of Palestine/Israel. Unfortunately, Israel claims that its very existence depends on denying the Palestinians their human and civil rights. I refuse to believe that. And many on both sides – as said above – want to live in peace together. I pretty much agree with everything JE has been saying.
Just one more thing. This was a really interesting article by an Israeli. I think it supports what Ali Abunimah and others have been saying, and shows that all these deaths were entirely unnecessary. Which is truly horrible and tragic.
May peace come soon, so that Israelis and Palestinians can live in safety!
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If I were unable to offer words of support and encouragement, I would at the very least abstain from arguing with someone who is directly experiencing the most awful situation imaginable. The issue is not who one supports or doesn’t support, but rather some very basic tact, very basic manners. Maybe both you and JE should go elsewhere to proclaim your empty and generalized opinions. Obviously everyone wants peace & love, but as el politely pointed out, the issue is far more complex. Ironically the people that so vehemently proclaim that all they want is peace for everyone are the same ones that don’t hesitate for a split second before making deeply inappropriate statements.
This blog often offers posts that cause a lot of controversy, but I have to say that for the first time I am truly disgusted with some people’s profound lack of sensitivity.
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“But I support exactly the same right for the Palestinians, who are the indigenous people of Palestine/Israel”
– What about the Jews? Which lands are they indigenous to?
I also sincerely hope you do not live anywhere in the Americas and if you do that you descend 100% from the Native American people’s. Otherwise thsi comment sounds quite a bit hypocritical.
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To Sister, I want to say that fortunately, unlike south’s citizens, I don’t yet deserve your words:
“directly experiencing the most awful situation imaginable”
&
“from the actual war zone, after hearing rocket warnings and fearing for her life”
Today in Tel Aviv Update:
Twice today (in the morning when 2 Fajr-5 were shot at the city & in the evening) a warning sounded. Look at the uppermost video at this link to see how this evening in Tel Aviv “Iron Dome” launcher shoots down a rocket:
http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/2689/2587631
I read in the paper today that Hamas has but a few Fajrs left, and intends to save them to shoot 1-2 per day at Tel Aviv, if the thing continues.
For comparison, today 90 rockets were shot at Israel (from TV). Hebrew wiki still claims that during 5 days of Operation Pillar of Cloud ~ 500 rockets were shot at Israel. May be it’s already more, but you see the difference 1-4 rockets per day in Tel Aviv versus 24 per day (in Ashkelon).
Here is wiki’s page in English:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pillar_of_Cloud
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“To Sister, I want to say that fortunately, unlike south’s citizens, I don’t yet deserve your words”
– I hope it never gets to the point where you find yourself under direct attack.
The Iron Dome seems to be working quite well. Do you have a feeling that the conflict is slowing down?
I actually feel more hopeful about the situation than I have felt for a long time. If Hamas is incapacitated and its leadership destroyed, there might be a window of opportunity to start a legitimate peace process.
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I’m a little late to this discussion (on my own blog, of all places), but here are the lines of argument I have been able to identify in the discussion:
– A binational state would be a good solution. To me, this suggestion makes zero sense whatsoever. In such a state, today’s violence would seem like a walk in the park compared to the endless daily terror we will see.
– Population reduction. Good in principle but completely oblivious of the actual realities of the peoples we are talking about. There are fanatical religious factions on both sides that see procreation as their only mission in life. Short of annihilating these huge groups of people entirely, you will not convince them to stop procreating.
– Buying love and acceptance from Palestinians through building schools and hospitals. Again, sounds beautiful in theory but completely impossible in reality. This isn’t a Hollywood movie, folks. We are talking about a massive ethnic and religious conflict.
– And the argument I find the most useless: a discussion of whose land this is. It is especially cute when people from the Americas advance such arguments (whether on the side of the Jews or of the Arabs.) Such a respect for the indigenous inhabitants of a land all of a sudden. When it costs one nothing, it is so easy to respect the indigenous rights, isn’t it?
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I agree with all your points, especially with the ones about a binational state & population reduction. One has to be a complete idiot to think a binational state is possible (US nuked twice for far less than its’ destruction), or a good idea in an alternative universe, where it would happen.
I think there is some part of truth in my feeling that some people want to see Jews being “punished”, forced to show their “inner horribleness” in this imaginary binational state, forced to “be fair” by losing a country. Saying stuff like (paraphrased):
“If your country is democratic, if should stop to be.”
AND
“Were I a Palestinian, I would never have agreed to two countries, instead continuing mutual bloodshed till Israel’s fall.”
This doesn’t bring peace. Is 0% helpful. Which country in the world would agree to commit suicide? The attitude in the 2nd sentence would never bring peace, unless Jews experience a second Shoa or Palestinians would experience something horrible and forced out, don’t know where.
And I am 100% sure that were Jews in Israel really lose a war and get slaughtered
in millions by Palestinians, many people would talk how it’s Israel’s fault for existing and refusing to stop to exist. While were Palestinians forced out (with numerous dead, but I am sure without genocide), they would say exactly zero about their not wanting peace, instead talking about their sacred right of return and how evil those Jews are.
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Wanted to add that the comment made me laugh:
“It is amazing the marxists of europe (!) support reactionary,homophobic (!!!) hamas”
Those marxists (in today’s age!) of europe & especially choosing to mention that hamas is homophobic (!!!) of all things in 2 adjectives used to describe hamas’s bad sides are *killing* me.
I don’t want to hurt Proxy. It just was as if reading a comment from a different planet.
With all due respect to gays’ rights, Arab societies around us are light years away from them. Why not at least say Hamas is misogynist instead? Women, unlike gays, are more than 50% of population.
It’s so much projecting what Europian citizens care about in their own countries (gay rights) on Hamas. 🙂
And previously on this thread somebody mentioned how Europe’s citizens can freely move among countries, how it solves, even if late and partly, the problem of wanting to return to another country persons. We’re not in Europe, people. Look at Syria, f.e.
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“It’s so much projecting what European citizens care about in their own countries (gay rights) on Hamas.”
– I agree completely. Any discussion of Israel and Palestine always devolves into a string of projections about the speaker’s country of origin. This is Orientalism at its worst.
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No.Even in non european countries like china and india gays while does not have equal rights are not actively persecuted unlike in gaza
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Just read a post, showing what some people don’t understand:
http://www.jewishmarbella.com.es/index.php/en/news-and-information/301-john-mccain-on-jews-and-israel
What they don’t understand is that:
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I meant it for all people fantasizing about Israel’s end or it turning into a binational state (the latter – impossible because of Palestinians – no matter how many schools you build – even without connection to any Israeli Jews).
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A binational state is such a baseless fantasy that I don’t even want to lose time discussing it. It’s never going to happen, and if it were to happen, it would be an enormous disaster for everybody.
From the very beginning, the Jews wanted a state of their own. They have never been too shy about proclaiming this desire. Expecting them now to absorb a competing religion and culture is completely unrealistic. What they want is to survive as an ethnos, religion and culture. This is their goal. And it’s kind of weird to expect them to depart from that goal because strangers who never even visited the country would like them to.
Until people start approaching the situation realistically, this discussion will remain hopeless.
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The position of the US and Europe on the issue has been one of incessant dithering, double standard, wavering, and the desire to see the conflicting sides just shut up and disappear. This is how it has been since 1945 and this is why the entire problem even arose. As a result, Israel, I believe, is quite justified in not listening to the American and European input any longer.
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// No.Even in non european countries like china and india gays while does not have equal rights are not actively persecuted unlike in gaza
Even? Are those countries the lowest of the low? In the Middle East?
Check Israel’s neighbors, starting with countries that border Israel and go over Middle East from there.
Seems ridiculous to concentrate on gay issues here, anyway. Only in Europe, I guess.
— el
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