Who Is Hurt More By This, Men or Women?

When only mothers get tested to see if they have an impact on their children’s obesity, whom does this hurt more (besides the children, of course), men or women? Who is insulted more by this kind of study, men or women?

This is obviously insanely offensive to both men and women. This is why I keep repeating like a broken record that gender stereotypes and the entire stupid gender binary hurts both men and women. And instead of getting together and trying to figure out how we can break down this system, we engage in creating endless check-lists of who has been victimized more by this system. As evidenced by the recent thread on gender discriminating feminists.

And I’m willing to bet that this thread will also be graced with comments as to how men (or women) are victimized more than women (or men).

47 thoughts on “Who Is Hurt More By This, Men or Women?”

  1. Do any of those commentators don’t know the difference between causation and association?

    I find it hard to get offended by stupid people their opinions just don’t matter to me.

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  2. I don’t have an answer to that – perhaps obese people?

    Yes, both sexes are exploited and hurt by sexism but there is one form of sexism that men seem to get on top of the regular ones: The denial that harmful sexism even exists and on top of this, the refusal to acknowledge that that hurt is worth anybody’s attention. This little flavour of sexism is a very special kind. While not harsher or worse than any other by itself, it has the magical effect that it undermines our efforts to deal with ALL other kinds of sexism (and all issues for that matter) that men face.

    In light of that, making it look like both sexes are equally often getting exclusive sympathy from the mainstream, is painting a false picture of the situation and therefore making it harder to address.

    Oppression Olympics is a weapon that is almost exclusively wielded against men. In light of that, and the fact that you cannot argue against it without using it yourself, I would never reprimand those few who use it for men – as you have done too when answering to the nutters who claim sexism only hurts women.

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    1. The denial that sexism exists is something people encounter irrespective of their gender. What do you think is the 1st, 2nd, etc. thing a woman hears when she shares thar she is being harassed, discriminated against in the workplace on the basis of gender, etc?

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      1. No way. Sure, not EVERY complaint by a woman is immediately taken seriously by everyone. But it is nowhere near the same resistance that one faces when calling out discrimination against men. They’re not even remotely comparable.

        There is a very strong public sentiment that regards women as victims (the fact that that is also a form of sexism seems to escape most people). This sentiment is reflected everywhere in the mainstream media. That’s why you get people saying that even when men die, their wives are the “real victims”. Men are almost invisible to the public as victims of disasters.

        I don’t believe you can really deny this imbalance. Just ask yourself how heavy resistance you got when talking to people about either discrimination against women or men. And I’m not just talking about feminists. That problem is everywhere.

        As long as this denial of men’s issues persists in the mainstream, I don’t see any other way but the use of Oppression Olympics. But I”m open to suggestions. By all means, if you have a better idea then share it.

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        1. “There is a very strong public sentiment that regards women as victims (the fact that that is also a form of sexism seems to escape most people). This sentiment is reflected everywhere in the mainstream media. That’s why you get people saying that even when men die, their wives are the “real victims”.”

          – This is undoubtedly true. 😦 😦

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      2. So you can understand why some men may react to feminism less than kindly sometimes? I mean when a movement, that started partly because of those things a woman hears when she shares her stories, turns around says some of those same things to men….

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        1. Is there a philosophy under the sun that doesn’t suffer the same pollution from intellectually limited people? Christianity now revolts many people (and rightfully so) because they see so many shrill, angry, hateful Christians. Was that Jesus’s goal, however? The same happens with Marxism. It’s hard to concentrate on the very profound ideas Marx expressed without thinking about all the people who were killed in the name of Marxism. The list could continue forever.

          People have a tendency to pervert even the greatest ideas, that’s a sad fact of life. But those pseudo-feminists you describe cannot possibly bother you more than they bother me, believe me.

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  3. What a shitty, shitty study that looks to cause more shitty, shitty ideas to bubble up to the surface of the collective social imagination toilet.

    [In before feminism flame war.]

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  4. I’ve seen exactly one sort of study on the impact that fathers have on the health and body image issues in their children, and it was focusing more on the impact that divorce had on these. There really needs to be more on the subject, because focusing on only one parent will skew it, big time.
    In my case, both of my parents played a role in my health and body-image issues. My mother was very strict about meals and exercise, and shamed me and my sister for not being as skeletally thin as her. My father, before he died, therefore came to be seen as the “fun” parent when it came to food, when mom was away for long weekends or some other activity, he would take us out to pizza, let us have dessert (something forbidden when our mother was around) and didn’t mind if we took seconds or drank something other than water. So I associated him with comfort, indulgence, and escape from my mother’s rules, which meant I ate a lot more after he died because I missed that comfort and needed a familiar way to deal with the grief of losing him, and as a rebellion against my mother’s diet and exercise regimes. I’m sure I’m not the only one who has a story like that to tell about intersecting parental dynamics in their health and body image development.

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  5. Seems the study attempts to correlate obesity with attachment. As far as gender goes an examination should focus on the one doing the greater portion of nurturing. If nurturing attachment correlates to obesity. But I do get the point your making. Being the sexist that I am, my belief is that children are better off with fathers when they are between age 3 and age 9. This is when they are more physically active and in general sexist terms men are more active than women, or may be more likely physicaaly active than post partum women. My imression

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    1. I don’t get the part about the physically active children. I was a child who hated any form of physical activity and loved spending time with my father who hated it even more. Some kids and adults are into being active. Some are not. Nobody has found any gender correlation with love if actibity. Or age correlation.

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      1. IMO activity is age relative, which is to say you were active as a child. Learning to walk is active, I spent many hours with my daughter curled up beside me and many hours active.I changed my outlook when observing the determination of a child to engage the environment around them. I no longer believed they were playing rather they were learning,working to learn. Kids don’t play they engage in physically educational geometry, which to me makes their activities so interesting. Its like watching a program being written. I do happen to believe that obesity and early childhood attachment do correlate but are not nessassarily the governing agent.

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      2. We are also behaviorly sympathetic, so your fathers inactivity may have influenced you, kind of like a benefit analysis kid style. Hey this harry dad guy is great and he loves me lets hang out. If those qualities you love in your father happened to be more physically active you may have become more active. I just happen to beleive that childhood has stages and trends that are better served by alternating nurturing between parents.

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  6. Clarissa,

    How do you propose to cancel out gender duality? It’s core genetic coding. Are you proposing an alternative reproductive mechanism? I enjoy the one I’m using now.

    In science, we look down every alley, no matter how dark. That approach leads to questions of all things. Sometimes the questions offend. We ask anyway.

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      1. I find this redifinition of words (sex/gender) bothersome. You may be correct regarding general use of the words in English, and you are definitely correct to clarify your use of the words for this discussion, but I still find the conflation of these terms hinders productive discussion of many topics.

        For me, sex is an act, although not a verb. Gender is the biological construct. Modern usage may be evoling beyond my ability to keep current and “hip” but that’s a separate issue. As you certainly know, people are biologically either male or female at the chromosomal level, or rarely intersex. Beyond that, there are several other things that might infuence gender depending on gestation, hormones, morphology, and so on. Part of what we (humans) research when studying these things is whether one thing of another impacts, causes, influences, or otherwise correlates with other parts of our lives. If, for sake of discussion, it is true that children are made fat by relationship bonding issues with a maternal parent (defined according to your use of gender), makes for an interesting question with perhaps interesting answers. A similar study regarding male gender would also have similar merits. When one is confronted with the existence of such studies and their results, my advice is to allow one’s own interest to lead to further research. In your case, it appears you are interested to know if there are similar studies related to paternal parents, as well as if there are studies that control for gender.

        Am I mistaken?

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        1. “I still find the conflation of these terms hinders productive discussion of many topics.”

          – I agree! This is precisely why I suggest we don’t conflate and, instead, keep the two concepts separate.

          ” In your case, it appears you are interested to know if there are similar studies related to paternal parents, as well as if there are studies that control for gender.”

          – What I’m interested in is why fathers are so often excluded by researchers from any discussion of children’s development, as if fathers were completely dispensable. I don’t think fathers are dispensable. I believe they are just as important as mothers. This is why such studies as the one I quoted bother me.

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  7. Keith :
    We are also behaviorly sympathetic, so your fathers inactivity may have influenced you, kind of like a benefit analysis kid style. Hey this harry dad guy is great and he loves me lets hang out. If those qualities you love in your father happened to be more physically active you may have become more active. I just happen to beleive that childhood has stages and trends that are better served by alternating nurturing between parents.

    And how, Keith, would you propose this work out in scenarios with parents who are both of the same gender? My significant other and I are both women, and we plan on having children.
    Speaking of, my significant other is more active than I am; her mother is a fitness and swimming instructor who took her to the pool every Friday, while her father remains to this day a highly sedentary individual who prefers chess and reading to doing anything remotely physical, so I don’t see what use it is labelling one parent as the “active” one, since people are all different and it’s fairly useless to make such grand generalizations.

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    1. I agree. My mother is the most energetic person ever and my sister takes after her. I have always been so quiet that I often look comatose. ,it’s all the introspection that makes me this way.

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      1. Keith–
        There were RUMORS of “abortion doping” back in the ’70s, allegations that were never proven, and those related to women from East Germany, for whom the procedure, if it happened at all, may have been enforced by the totalitarian government. Again, though, these are all allegations with no concrete proof. Please don’t repeat unsubstantiated bullshit as if it were evidence of “female privilege”, whatever the hell that is.

        “as a man I’m not qualified to have any opinions on child obesity”

        Uh I don’t think anyone here is saying that. Anyone here, are you saying that? Mostly what I read in the responses to your posts is people refuting the idea that there are specific gender roles necessary for a child’s development that are learned from archetypal fathers and mothers, which sounds suspiciously like traditionalist biotruth / evopsych baloney. And stuff about how studies like the one cited in the OP are doing a disservice to both sexes by focusing primarily on women as caretakers [not to mention the pseudo-Freudian crap idea that mothers as a group are screwing up their kids].

        But I don’t understand the rest of your post at all. Unless maybe it’s sarcasm. Is it sarcasm? I’m pretty good at analyzing texts but the internet plays all kinds of hell with Poe’s Law.

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    2. I can only hope that you have predetermined which womb to use LOL. From my own observations raising kids the mother takes about 3 years to recover physically, those years are pretty much nesting years. I don’t see how its any different for same sex couples. Ideally if nurturing is exchanged between partners as the child develops through their developmental stages they gain diversity of support. The exchange reduces burnout for the parents and the child gains more profound parental bonding. Its really not that grand as much as its more tribal.

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        1. What a fascinating article. Thank you for leaving the link here!

          Unless we are talking about some extremely harsh pathology of pregnancy, childbirth is not something that needs years of recovery. Contrary to what many people think, pregnancy and childbirth are not diseases. 🙂

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      1. We’re mostly considering adopting, or possibly a surrogate. My partner doesn’t have a womb, and any chance I could get to avoid stretching out my stomach and my genitals like a rubber band is ideal for me.

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      2. Thank you I thought I might have been duped by female privilege, now you have confirmed it.
        I would never have believed that such a thing as abortion doping could exist boy am I naive.
        I do apologise for the ridiculous and grand generalizations maybe as a man I’m not qualified to have any opinions on child obesity, maybe thats why the survey focuses on mothers. Maybe mens views are just ridiculous. Of course an increase in red blood cells is a definite indication that the body has recovered. I wonder how that works for 35 year old mothers I wonder if it causes more stress on her system…….naw thats ridiculous. Besides woman don’t birth at 35 and there is no symbiotoc connection like lactating and if you can do the laundry your recovered. Right! I suppose if we own obese pets we should survey the menz.

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    3. I don’t see what use it is labelling one parent as the “active” one, since people are all different and it’s fairly useless to make such grand generalizations.

      Sorry I read that again, thought I might highlight the determination isn’t to label as much as seeing activity as a choice and at times a responsibility. It becomes interchangeable, shared, giving for the sake of benefiting.Its kind of like functioning outside of the essentialism paradigm as essemtialism

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  8. Adi :
    As long as this denial of men’s issues persists in the mainstream, I don’t see any other way but the use of Oppression Olympics. But I”m open to suggestions. By all means, if you have a better idea then share it.

    Engaging open-minded people in an intelligent manner without dismissing their experiences as being less oppressed, and framing your experiences with “I” and “me” language so that generalizations are avoided, and using the language of “flip side of the same coin” to explain how we can all benefit from working together on issues which negatively affect us all?

    That is how I’ve worked with cisgendered women who were close minded or squeamish about the idea of trans* women being included within feminism, and for most of them, it worked. The rest were just lost causes to begin with and I wasn’t too fussed.

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  9. I would say both are affected evenly by the same outlook. In this case the power/responsibility is shifted too much in the women’s direction and too little in the man’s, which ends up being very detrimental to both. The one that gets the brunt of this imbalance, sadly, is the child. 😦

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    1. “The one that gets the brunt of this imbalance, sadly, is the child. ”

      – Exactly!! And then you see mother’s easily kicking out their children’s fathers out of their lives. Who’s surprised since they probably never even heard that a child needs both parents equally.

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  10. P Rhoeas
    The duped by female privelege was referring to my wife……..although I didn’t see a reference to state influenced abortion doping. Not all experience is reference to traditionalism. Grand generalization are offered for the reader to find themselves in the comment not the other way around. Interestingly I was attempting to make a case for father participation……you know co nurturing. Sorry you see that as some evo freudian bullshit. I guess if we cant percieve a role for fathers beyond politically correct definitions then hey who needs them. To answer the question of the article directly those who suffer are the children and their father if they have one. When the mother is surveyed she at least participates the father is excluded. Obviously the survey imposes no judgement on the mother so anything she feels is self imposed. The father however is removed along with anything he may think, believe or feel. It is no different than filing for a birth certificate which is assigned to the mother. Here in canada anyway. I take no position with gender much beyond the freedom to participate. When I am marginalised based on gender I take offense. Tje question was posed as heter normative……..mother father. Why the gender spew about same sex couples …….my only problem is with same name couples….you call one and they both answer. LOL
    Against the notion of archetypal parenting roles as a man I would be satified to participate.

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    1. “The father however is removed along with anything he may think, believe or feel. It is no different than filing for a birth certificate which is assigned to the mother. Here in canada anyway.”

      – And that’s precisely what bugs me. Hello to a fellow Canadian, by the way. 🙂

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      1. @P rhoeas
        why did the canadian cross the road……….

        To get to the middle
        Cheers from the nations glorius crapital

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    2. Ah I see. Well, like I said, I have some trouble with Poe’s Law on the ‘net. Mea culpa.

      No, I completely agree that fathers are a good thing. I love my dad. In general, it’s a good thing for kids to have loving, capable caretakers, male or female. Gender discrimination, including legal and social discrimination against fathers as caretakers, hurts everybody.

      The “evo freudian bullshit” I was referring to is the implication in the study that mothers as primary caretakers are screwing up their kids lives – which goes hand in hand with the implication that fathers are not worthy of consideration as caretakers, also some bullshit – but as long as we agree that kind of stuff is stupid I think we’ll get along. 🙂

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  11. Keith :@P rhoeaswhy did the canadian cross the road……….
    To get to the middleCheers from the nations glorius crapital

    Why did the American cross the road?

    He didn’t. Roads are for pussies.

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      1. What do you call a warhawking, drunk-driving, coke-snorting, spendthrifting, military service-shrifting, Texas accent-affecting C-student daddy’s boy?

        Mister President.

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    1. P rhoeas
      that last joke of yours which really wasn’t

      What do you call a warhawking, drunk-driving, coke-snorting, spendthrifting, military service-shrifting, texas accent affecting C student?

      The decider

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