Let’s Keep Voting

The UK election results mean that a new vote needs to be held immediately. Because in the 15 seconds since the last vote, everybody must have definitely decided they don’t want Brexit any more. Definitely. Because it’s not possible voters actually mean what they say they mean.

I’m neither pro nor against Brexit because it’s definitely nothing to do with me. But I’m horrified by the contempt for the will of the people that the incapacity to make Brexit happen revealed.

In the US they are smarter. They don’t even want to ask voters any more. Let’s just impeach instead and fuck voters, they say.

Again, I didn’t support Trump and was very unhappy he won. But that’s not the point. It’s all about the egregious contempt for all of us. And I mean, all of us. Because tomorrow you will vote for something or somebody these slick bastards don’t like and you’ll immediately become a fascist and a white supremacist entirely irrespective of how non-white and super-duper progressive you might be.

16 thoughts on “Let’s Keep Voting”

  1. Do you agree with Mike that NHS is going to be destroyed now and Brits will suffer?

    http://www.technologyasnature.com/how-bad-it-can-be/

    Now started wondering how all kinds of health and welfare systems work in EU. If a German citizen has been working for several years in France and then lost a job, will he be entitled to French social services? What if a citizen of one EU country develops a costly illness while living in another? What will prevent all EU citizens f.e. from Poland from moving to a richer EU country, if they know they may need medical help?

    I suppose, there are limitations. May be, cliff who lives there knows …

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    1. Corbyn couldn’t handle a 15 interview but he would have totally saved the massively dysfunctional NHS. Makes total sense.

      The guy is a total loser and the NHS has been imploding forever.

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    2. “NHS is going to be destroyed ”

      From talking with some Brits online I have the idea that successive UK governments have been destroying the NHS for years (not what they say but the result of what they describe).
      AFAICT the UK has all but given up on educating doctors and nurses and rely on poaching them from other countries, which doesn’t sound sustainable but training medical personnel is very expensive and since (in theory) they’ll know English it’s easier (and cheaper!) to lure medical staff from countries that train them but don’t have any sick people that need treatment like India and the Philippines.

      “how all kinds of health and welfare systems work in EU”

      The general idea is that EU citizens are eligible for local social benefits after some time living/working in a country (each country sets its own rules).
      There’s a health insurance card (forget its official name in English) that entitles those on trips to healthcare access, a friend used it a few months ago to see a doctor while on vacation in Malta. I have the card but I’ve never had the need to use it.
      A number of Poles in the southwest of the country routinely go for treatment to the Czech republic (and some have begun working there). There’s a compensation plan but I’m hazy on the details.

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  2. We obviously disagree on the facts. You’re repeating a right-wing talking point that Trump is being impeached because the Democrats hate him. I think there is enough evidence that what he did was a clear abuse of power – and most of the people with immediate factual knowledge of the events refused to testify.

    Imagine that someone widely suspected of murdering his first wife is elected president. If he murders his second wife while in office, he should be impeached despite the will of the voters.

    Letting the majority decide everything often ends badly for minorities. That’s why we have laws. If one of the things Trump promised voters was that pregnant women weren’t allowed to continue being professors and the majority was OK with that (because they are not female professors), you probably wouldn’t be as enthusiastic about the will of the people.

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    1. Nancy Pelosi said yesterday that this impeachment has been going on for 22 months. She’s hardly a massive right+
      -winger.

      I’m honestly not good with analogies, my brain doesn’t process them well but on the subject of murder, Obama murdered a US citizen with a drone with no trial, no due process. Nobody ever considered impeaching him for that. George W started a war in Iraq under false pretenses. And Trump said “do us a favor” in a phone call. I mean, seriously. If we are talking about murder, let’s talk about murder. What did Trump actually do? Whom did he kill?

      As for letting the majority decide, that’s an interesting turn of phrase because it begs the question, who’s doing the letting? Who’s the deciding agency that supersedes the will of the people?

      You talk about laws. The law of the land that he’s president and he sets foreign policy. I hated Bush’s and Obama’s foreign policy. Hated it. But I never thought it would be a good idea to have a rebellion of some unelected “foreign service officials” who disagree with that policy and think they should be doing anything but advancing the policy set by the president. There is no law I’m aware of that gives them such power.

      As for my unconditional support for the will of the people, I hate Zelensky more than Alyssa Milano hates Trump. For real. Can’t stand the damn bugger. But he won the election, and I’d be wailing to the skies if Poroshenko, whom I do admire a lot, tried to contest the election or sabotaged the transfer of power in any way. So yes, my belief in democracy is absolute.

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      1. And by the way, Zelensky met with Putin in Paris the other day. I expected the worst. But he actually did great. And I’m lucid enough to recognize that this guy I deeply despise, deeply deeply despise, did a great job for Ukraine. And I’m happy he did. I called the people I know who are his fans and said, “hey, he did great, I’m so glad.” I still feel nauseous when I see his photo online but I’m looking for any shred of evidence that I’m wrong, not that I’m right.

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      2. Also, on the subject of the Republican talking points. I was very sad when Trump won in 2016. I documented it here on the blog. There was a photo of me with a huge Hillary button, I was in tears reading her concession speech, I had a Hillary app installed, everything. Seriously, I’m not lying. I have witnesses who saw me back then and can confirm. I was as upset as I can be on a political subject. A lot more upset than I was over Zelensky’s win because I live here.

        Something had to have happened to make me interested in Tucker and Co. It’s not like I can’t sustain a feeling of resentment for a long time. I hated Bush for all 8 years with an unwavering passion. So there’s got to be something. In my wildest nightmares could I have imagined I’d even consider being anything but a very progressive Democrat.

        I’m in academia. Can you imagine how isolating it is to be the only person in my world who celebrates the Tory win in the UK? I lost most of my old-time blog readers over this. I’m avoiding people I’ve known for two decades. Even at Church everybody is a Rachel Maddow fan. I didn’t choose this, it’s honestly no fun. I’d love to go back to the time when I had no idea what channel Fox News was on.

        But as a dissident character in a Soviet novel said, “I can’t press a button on my body and believe what I know is untrue.”

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        1. // Can you imagine how isolating it is to be the only person in my world who celebrates the Tory win in the UK?

          What about Jewish academics?

          I love the idea of EU, especially since my region is full of enemies of Israel and of warring among themselves 1001 Muslim tribes and sides. Being surrounded by friendly states instead of terrorists seems a dream, an idea of Paradise in the Middle East.

          However, Corbyn’s antisemitism would overrule other concerns.

          I am Left in American and European terms (in Israel, Left means something else), but Left in Europe and America is increasing its hostility to Israel in the attempt to court Muslim votes. For instance, I am extremely glad Corbyn lost since he promised to take steps against Israel right after his election:

          “New UK Labour manifesto calls to ban arms sales to Israel
          Corbyn’s party also promises to ‘immediately’ recognize a Palestinian state if it wins next month’s general elections”

          Surveys may be slanted, yet:

          ” Some 87 percent of British Jews believe that Jeremy Corbyn—one of two men who could be prime minister in a few days’ time—is anti-Semitic. […]
          Survation found that although Jews voted 2 to 1 to remain in the European Union, 78 percent prefer a hard Brexit to a Corbyn government”

          https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/12/british-jews-are-worried-jeremy-corbyn-and-labour-party/603259/

          In general, liked this article “Why British Jews Are Worried by Jeremy Corbyn.”

          Don’t American Jews care one bit about Jews in Israel and Britain?

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          1. It’s a choice between being a pariah among everybody you know and disregarding some unsavory comments by some guy half the world away. Brexit is”racist and Nazi” and being for it in any way means you are a racist and a Nazi and you are “literally making people die”. And that’s professional death.

            I’ve met a couple of pro-Trump academics in the hard sciences. They are so deeply in the closet they need a civil rights movement to dig them out of it.

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            1. The younger academics are the worst. They look at you with completely sincere, wide open eyes and spout wokester slogans. They are either sociopaths or they honestly believe this crap. With my generation of academics and older, at least there’s always an understanding that this diversity crap is a game we are playing. Nobody takes it seriously. But the younger academics actually do believe it. They look at facts and don’t see them because there’s a diversity slogan that erases reality completely. It’s scary shit.

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            2. // you are “literally making people die”.

              What?! How?

              At first, I assumed it was about post-Brexit Britain stopping to receive refugees, but then remembered they went to Germany and Sweden anyway.

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              1. It’s a new fashion among the wokester crowd. Whenever you say anything they don’t like, they accuse you of “literally making people die.” When I complained about the noise on campus a few weeks ago, that’s what happened.

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      3. “on the subject of murder, Obama murdered a US citizen with a drone with no trial, no due process. Nobody ever considered impeaching him for that. George W started a war in Iraq under false pretenses. And Trump said “do us a favor” in a phone call. I mean, seriously. If we are talking about murder, let’s talk about murder. What did Trump actually do? Whom did he kill?”

        I’m sorry analogies don’t work well for you. I love them. I picked murder because it seemed like an easy one.

        I think the Iraq war was the most disastrous and consequential of all of the above (and killed the most people, obviously). We probably agree on that.

        To be frank, what Obama did seems like the amount of authoritarian overreach in the name of security that most administrations get away with.

        Trump caused many unnecessary deaths when he withdrew American forces from Syria on a whim after speaking with Erdogan, and Turkey then started shelling those areas. But the Kurds killed were not American citizens, so no House would impeach for that.

        He previously caused many unnecessary deaths with his administration’s response (or rather lack of it) to Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico. That was within his powers constitutionally, though, so no impeachment there.

        “As for letting the majority decide, that’s an interesting turn of phrase because it begs the question, who’s doing the letting? Who’s the deciding agency that supersedes the will of the people?”

        The previous will of the people as expressed through electing politicians who create laws, appoint judges, etc.

        “You talk about laws. The law of the land that he’s president and he sets foreign policy. I hated Bush’s and Obama’s foreign policy. Hated it. But I never thought it would be a good idea to have a rebellion of some unelected “foreign service officials” who disagree with that policy and think they should be doing anything but advancing the policy set by the president. There is no law I’m aware of that gives them such power.””

        That’s another place where we simply disagree on facts, or rather how we interpret them. I’ve tried but I can’t contort my mind into seeing the situation as a rebellion of unelected foreign service officials. There weren’t even that many involved!

        What actions did they take that interfered with Trump advancing his foreign policy? They followed the policy as set by the president via his Secretary of State and their supervisors. The problematic aspects of the foreign policy weren’t officially communicated to them via any channels. That part was conducted at the president’s direction through a select few government officials, about half of them not in foreign service, and his personal lawyer. The people who you claim rebelled mostly testified after the fact when asked by the elected members of Congress.

        Marie Yovanovich didn’t do anything. She was fired preemptively to get her out of the way. When Trump decided to freeze the aid, the aid was frozen by the department in charge. As people found out, they wondered why because no reason was given. Fiona Hill talked to the lawyer of her department (National Security) at the urging of her supervisor (Bolton), as did Alexander Vindman, I believe.

        The whistleblower went through the official, legal channels, and the report was then reviewed and found credible. Bill Taylor and George Kent took no actions that interfered with the official foreign policy. When Bill Taylor thought he figured out what was needed to unfreeze the aid he texted Gordon Sondland that he thought that was crazy. That was on Sep 9th.

        I don’t really follow or have strong feelings about Ukrainian politics. I just feel sorry for the people, mostly those who aren’t making things worse.

        “Something had to have happened to make me interested in Tucker and Co. ”

        I think it’s the effect of wokesterism (I so hate the word) because you experience it much more personally in academia. It’s the fact that you can’t discuss or question many things without being shunned. I get it. I stopped posting anything on social media about a decade ago because I saw where things were going. I loved making sarcastic jokes, but saw how almost anything can be offensive. That’s why comedians are the subjects of so many of their own jokes, but now even that is becoming dangerous because those who share the quality/experience with the comedian might be offended.

        I agree that the pendulum has swung way too far. I also worry that the eventual result will be it swinging too far back.

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        1. I’m sorry, but after “Trump caused many deaths by withdrawing from Syria,” I can’t keep reading. I’m not seeing any common ground on this subject that can lead to a productive discussion.

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          1. I thought that you might say he kept his promise or whatever to end American involvement. I am talking specifically about the manner in which he withdrew. Our troops weren’t informed in advance and didn’t have a plan in place.

            Trump either didn’t know or didn’t care about what Erdogan was planning to do immediately afterwards. The Kurds and Turkey negotiated a “ceasefire” after civilian deaths to give people time to leave the area. That should have been agreed on prior to the US troops leaving, but who cares about some extra deaths of Middle-Easterners, right?

            And he didn’t even withdraw all the troops! After the dumbass learned about the oil field in the area, he left some of them there to guard it.

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