UBI World

At least, we all got to experience life in a country with a Universal Basic Income. The result is riots, looting, mass hysteria, and crowds of people going over the deep end.

Unlike predicted, the idle yet UBI-ed masses didn’t create works of art or explore new hobbies. Instead, they started prowling the streets and punching strangers in the face in a search for a sense of purpose.

Can we put this idea to rest, at least? Or is more proof needed?

I’d gladly recognize I was wrong and embrace the UBI if the results weren’t as horrid as they are. Why can’t the supporters of the idea change their minds now that there’s clear evidence that UBI leads to misery and chaos?

25 thoughts on “UBI World”

  1. Australia went considerably closer to UBI than America, in the sense that unemployment benefits had no jobsearch requirements for six months, and hundreds of thousands of employed people had ‘JobKeeper’ payments that preserved their jobs while their employers had no trade. We did not have riots and looting.

    But actually I would ask, in what sense did America approximate UBI during this crisis? I thought there was very little in the way of extra income support for ordinary people…

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    1. We had Trumpbucks. Everybody got mailed checks. You didn’t have to do anything, apply, request them in any way. Even high-income people like us got them.

      In top of that, there’s been increased unemployment payments. $600 a week, which is a lot more than any real UBI offers.

      Everybody was at home, not working.

      Typical UBI.

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    2. Exactly. Most developed countries introduced some programs involving giving money to the people. And yet in most countries this did not result in riots. One can debate to what extent the US riots are orchestrated, or somewhat provoked, or spontaneous, but UBI is not their cause.

      Bread and circus (in the context of this discussion – bars whose absence allegedly results in too much pent-up energy) is the ancient recipe for governments maintaining stability or canalizing energy of the masses. The fact that it works proves only that humans are humans and are easily gullible, not that given government or political system in general are reasonable or just.

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      1. We must have a different news feed. Mine showed massive protests of happy idiots BLMing it away in Canada, UK, Germany, all across Europe. Yes, it was a lot less large-scale because there’s no party running for election egging them on but wasn’t there a statue pulled down in Montreal? Didn’t people try to get rid of the statue of McGill? Weren’t windows broken on St.Catherine in a city that has the most relaxed and laissez-faire police in North America?

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  2. < “At least, we all got to experience life in a country with a Universal Basic Income. The result is riots, looting, mass hysteria, and crowds of people going over the deep end.”

    Ah, Clarissa. I’m VERY sleepy this 3:50 a.m Arizona night, but I believe that you and I may be moving toward a common ground.

    I am so goddamn sick of turning on the television every singe night, and seeing garbage containers and dumpsters being set on fire by obscenity-screaming cretins after they’ve smashed windows and trashed the property of local shop owners, while the local police stand down and do essentially nothing, because they’ve been ordered by their cowardly (mostly Democratic) mayors and governors to stand down.

    The terrified-rabbit silence from ALL the leading Democrats from Biden and Harris and Pelosi on down, echoed by their apologists on MSNBC and CNN, disturbs me as much as the actual rioting.

    Our “fascist” President condemns the anarchy and keeps offering to send in the federal troops, but holds back waiting for the local mayors and governors request them, perhaps because he knows that legally he’s required to do so to avoid being considered a “dictator declaring martial law” — or perhaps cynically to allow the destruction to continue to election day at Democratic expense.

    These lawless riots will continue every day until some authority is willing to exercise sufficient authority to crush them while simultaneously condemning them in the harshest terms. The Democrats at all levels refuse even to mouth the latter.

    Trump suggests that if reelected, he will put the jackboot down and restore a reasonable state of law and order. I suspect that much of his words are simply empty mouthing, but at least he’s talking in the right direction.

    I can’t wait until this verrückt election is finally over in the days (weeks?) after Nov 3rd!

    Goodnight!

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    1. It’s disgraceful, I agree with you, Dreidel. But it’s like with the lockdowns. This will be over once the people are fed up and want it to be over. But they clearly aren’t, so let’s keep waiting.

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  3. Any long-term handout by the governments is bad if you ask me. They started giving assistance to unwed mothers and boom, all the baby mamas decided to get lots of kids and not care whether they go to school or what they do all day while daddies explore their Peter Pan side.

    The Corona bucks are a little different though. I personally know some people who are desperate. A friend of mine got his time and salary cut to 70% and he is the sole bread winner for a family of four, so the extra cash was a boon for them.

    As fas as the protesters goes, let’s not forget that all the venues where young people could let out some steam like clubs or bars are now closed. I’d say many of them are on the street protesting as an alternative evening entertainment. You can end the protests two ways, either fully reopen, or come up with a mental illness for young adults like ADHD for kids and medicate the energy out of them.

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    1. “I’d say many of them are on the street protesting as an alternative evening entertainment”

      A few are likely mere thrill-seekers. But it has become increasingly apparent that a militant and organized core has been planning and creating the venues for these pop-up party-goers. And so the protests won’t end until the orchestrators either decide it’s in their interest to stop or are criminally charged.

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      1. Or until we, the people, decide to stop supporting the rioters. Things don’t happen for so long if society doesn’t want them. Currently, it’s perfectly fine and laudable to bring BLM slogans into the workplace. And it’s absolutely impossible to question it in the workplace. This is how we all support it. We need to stop and it will go away.

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        1. I’m not supporting the rioters but what can I do? Ask my boss to change their background on Zoom? If a student showed up to your class wearing a BLM shirt, would you ask them to go and change?

          People say we should stop supporting businesses that are openly pro BLM. That means pretty much to stop shopping, eating and going online.

          Liked by 1 person

          1. You definitely aren’t supporting but I can’t go to FB anymore because there’s nothing in my feed except these weepy pro-BLM proclamations. People are massively and actively in favor. That’s the problem.

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  4. As other commenters note, there was not anything meaningfully resembling UBI. Unemployment benefits are not universal. And a one time payment hardly qualifies as UBI. Do you honestly think things would’ve been better without the stimulus? I think the rioting and deaths of despair would be as bad or worse.

    However, your analysis is correct because we are living in UBI world, or more accurately, unemployment world. UBI is meant to act as a substitute for jobs, but it does not provide all the same personal and social benefits, not by a longshot. It’s just a way to alleviate elite guilt (if they’re capable of that feeling; it may be more accurate to say it’s public relations.) Progressives continue to think that the only important thing is ensuring people’s physical needs are met. That is one important thing, but man cannot live on bread alone.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. // UBI is meant to act as a substitute for jobs, but it does not provide all the same personal and social benefits … ensuring people’s physical needs are met. That is one important thing, but man cannot live on bread alone.

      May Jews in Israel be one of the first groups leading the trend for UBI, aka ‘back to the future’ ?

      In Israel we already have UBI for many Jews and the only problem is that they are all too happy to continue thus, while having 5+ children per family. Those people definitely have more than enough meaning w/o a job.

      QUOTE

      According to Wasserzug, the employment rate among haredi men has been in a downward trend in the past two years dropping from 52% to 50.5% today, compared with 87% for non-haredi Jewish men.

      Should this remain the case, the exclusion of haredi men from the workforce would cost the Israeli market NIS 40 billion (approximately $11.25 billion) a year by 2030 and NIS 400 billion (approximately $112.5 billion) by 2065,” CTech said.
      This data was calculated using the normally high fertility rates throughout the haredi population, costing the Israeli government around 8,000 NIS a month per each family.

      the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics says [the haredi population] will account for 33% of the country’s population by 2065

      https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/haredi-prohibition-from-israeli-labor-force-will-cost-100-bln-in-next-decade-595827

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      1. Deeply religious people do have a sense of purpose so it’s not a big deal for them. They are such a small minority plus they are doing the crucial work of making sure there are Jews in the future. I’d just let them be.

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        1. “they are doing the crucial work of making sure there are Jews in the future”

          Exactly. In a sense they are doing a job: providing Jewish people for a Jewish state. Thank God for them.

          Liked by 1 person

        2. // Deeply religious people … are such a small minority

          May be in America or Europe. It may be hard to grasp for people outside the Middle East, so people project what they know on Israel. It is natural but wrong in this case.

          In Israel 2019-2020 , “Only 41% of Israel’s First-graders Attend Secular Schools” and 20.3% of (all) first-graders are in Haredi Jewish schools in contrast to 14.5% of Haredi first-graders in 2000.

          In 2019, among Israeli children aged 0-14, 19% are ultra-Orthodox and 25% – Arabs, “ie: about 44% of the future labor market consists of populations whose participation rate in the labor market today is lower than the total population.”

          Are 19% ” such a small minority”?

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          1. “Are 19% ” such a small minority”?”

            I would say no. Ultra-Orthodox Jews don’t seem to pull their weight in Israeli society… first in line for any kind of handout and not in the line at all for anything that contributes to the country as a whole. Producing large numbers of children who will grow into adults who don’t work… is not a viable model (Ultra Orthodox Jews don’t seem to be able to create a viable society on their own because there are too many necessary jobs that they just won’t do….).
            Given that 19% is a lot. It will be interesting to see how this plays out…

            In other Israeli news, I just watched the sci-fi series the Grave (BaYom SheHaAdama Raada – what does that mean?) and enjoyed it. Do you know if there will there be a second season? I liked the character Chava a lot.

            I wouldn’t mind more Israeli fare, is Kvodo any good?

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            1. // In other Israeli news, I just watched the sci-fi series the Grave (BaYom SheHaAdama Raada – what does that mean?) and enjoyed it. Do you know if there will there be a second season? I liked the character Chava a lot.
              I wouldn’t mind more Israeli fare, is Kvodo any good?

              BaYom SheHaAdama Raada = The day the earth shook

              I tried to check in Hebrew and there is no second season. Don’t know whether it’ll ever be .

              I do not watch TV at all, so it’s the first time I heard those titles. Don’t know what Kvodo is, so cannot recommend.

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  5. // they are doing the crucial work of making sure there are Jews in the future. I’d just let them be.

    I remember you had a different view several years ago and was enthusiastic about programs to encourage IDF service among Haredi Jews among other attempts to make Haredi ‘share the burden.’

    Has your faith changed your views on treatment of religious people?

    // they are doing a job: providing Jewish people for a Jewish state.

    The job is to provide correct or, in non PC terms, ‘normal’ people for a Jewish state. People who will protect the state by participating in its economy and serving in its army.

    As the matter stands today, secular and national religious Jews pay high taxes so that Haredi men would study Torah all their lives. I am sure you wouldn’t be that supportive and thanking God, had it been your money and your (and your children’s) army service.

    Most importantly, Israel doesn’t need Haredi Jews tp ‘provide Jewish people.’
    We have plenty of people already and Israeli fertility rate is the highest in OECD thanks to its secular population too:

    “The overall fertility rate in Israel in 2020 was 3.01 children per woman. The average fertility rate for 2017 for all developed countries of the OECD was 1.65.”

    “(the fertility rate of Haredi women is indeed quite high at around 7 children per woman).

    However, the rise in Israel’s fertility over the last two decades has been largely driven by the secular and traditional Jewish populations, whose combined fertility rate is greater than 2.2, which is itself higher than the overall fertility in any other OECD country.”

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    1. Oh, so there’s a correct way of being a Jew, eh? :-))) The overall trend in secular societies is towards fertility below replacement levels. Given the particularities of the Jewish state, there’s no greater investment into the future economy than creating more Jews.

      I’m guessing that the Haredim aren’t Ashkenazi, though, so this isn’t so doing anything to improve the overall world IQ.

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      1. // I’m guessing that the Haredim aren’t Ashkenazi, though

        Ashkenazi and IQ is a stereotype, though. And, even were it true, what’s the point of IQ, if the people in question use it only for Torah studies? Saw that around 60% of Haredi families live below the poverty line (since they have many children and don’t work). So when people talk about inequality in Israel, one should not ignore the reasons for it.

        I tried to find numbers about Haredim and English wiki says:

        “The vast majority of Haredi Jews are Ashkenazi. However, some 20% of the Haredi population are thought to belong to the Sephardic Haredi stream. In recent decades, Haredi society has grown due to the addition of a religious population that identifies with the Shas movement.”

        In 2018 Hebrew article saw:

        “29.1 percent of the ultra-Orthodox are Lithuanians; 29.7 percent are followers; 22.9 percent are Spaniards; 12.4 percent are Spaniards educated in Lithuanian institutions; 5.9 percent are Chabad followers”

        From wiki -Lithuanians are not necessary Ashkenazi :

        “Lithuanian Jews or Litvaks are Jews with roots in the territory of the former Grand Duchy of Lithuania, split among the present-day Lithuania, Belarus, Latvia, northeastern Suwałki and Białystok region of Poland, as well as some border areas of Russia and Ukraine. The term is sometimes used to cover all Haredi Jews who follow a “Lithuanian” (Ashkenazi, non-Hasidic) style of life and learning, whatever their ethnic background.”

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        1. It’s not a “stereotype.” It’s a scientific fact with a million studies conducted on the subject.

          Lithuanians, yes, are Ashkenazi but Spanish Jews are Sephardic. Sepharad means the Jewish community of Spain.

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      2. // Oh, so there’s a correct way of being a Jew, eh? :-)))

        No, I think there is a correct way – several ways actually- of being a human being.

        And you agree with that too and have previously talked against religious fanaticism.

        What I am worried about is how I will feel in future Israel as a secular woman. Unlike you, I cannot leave and go elsewhere. Will my country become alien to me as I grow old(er)?

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        1. It was reasonable ten or even 3 years ago to talk about religious fanaticism (not the Jewish kind, though) as a threat. But now we are seeing that the real threat is something very different.

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