UFOs and Astrology

So if you find out that a person believes in UFOs and aliens, is that the end of the conversation for you? Or will you be able to take this person seriously on other subjects?

How about astrology? If a person seriously believes in astrology or Tarot, can you trust that she (it’s got to be a she like the UFO believer has got to be a he) can have insight into another topic?

What if the UFO believer or an astrologist is a nuclear physicist or a neurosurgeon? Does that change things? And if you say it’s impossible, you’ve got a lot to learn about human beings.

I’m not trying to make any analogies here. I’m simply interested in how people feel about it.

28 thoughts on “UFOs and Astrology”

  1. Well, the U.S. Navy believes in UFO’s. They’ve got video to prove they exist. Youtube proves it.

    I just this week saw the Phenomenon, which is a History Channel style documentary expose (available on Amazon) of the fact that many in our government – basically a whose who (who’s who?) of Jeffery Epstein’s little black book – not only believe in UFO’s (which every sensible person does, we all see unidentified flying objects, all the time) but extraterrestrial intelligence.**

    And I think it a truth universally acknowledged: that if Harry Reid, John Podesta, Bill Richardson, Bill Cohen and Bill Clinton all believe something real and true, the rest of us should too.

    As for astrology, well, these same sorts of folks are all over that, too.

    I once taught high school French (very poorly it must be said) to the son of a state attorney general. He and his wife had me over to dinner several times.

    On a couple occasions, she and I ended up in their basement glasses of wine in hand, pouring over her astrology library – Many very odd and some seeming ancient texts, which took up an entire wall. I’d stand there at her desk while she did ad hoc charts and horoscopes for everyone in my family, people in the news at the time.

    Her son was quarterback and captain of the football team, a total ****ole and budding psychopath, one of my least favorite students. But she and her husband were both very nice, they put out a good spread, and they really liked me.. And she did my horoscope for free. So even if they were raising a monster, I still give them a pass.

    My horoscope is an interesting one. I was born on the cusp of Aquarius, which if you do not know is both January 20th, as well as our present age. Google “5th Dimension Age of Aquarius,” it’s a very groovy tune..

    The fact that Inauguration Day falls upon January 20th is no accident, in other words.

    If you doubt this, google “masonic street plan DC”.. Our Lords Material are very obviously occultists, numerologists, astrologers. That is an easily demonstrable, material fact provable by one quick google image search.

    You can scoff, but if you do you are scoffing at them. Maybe not the wisest thing to do.. As Saddam Hussein and many others have discovered.

    **cf. Revelation 12:7-17

    Like

  2. If I had to take someone seriously and had to choose between a UFO/alien believer and someone who participates in organised religion, I would choose the UFO/alien believer over the person participating in organised religion.

    At the same time, if I had to choose between a UFO/alien believer and someone who practices their religion by themselves, who reads and contemplates their holy texts alone without being told what the interpretation is by a priest/imam/rabbi, then I would choose the religious practitioner.

    The decisive factor for me personally is whether or not the person thinks for themselves, investigates, weighs up evidence, considers various things etc. rather than what they’re thinking about.

    Just as a quick note though, I personally think that most UFO/alien believers are probably fantasists and escapists who just like to dream about things rather than investigators.

    Like

  3. “believes in UFOs”

    UFOs are completely real, the abbreviation refers to objects in the sky that observers can’t identify… believing that some of them are extra-terrestial or extra-dimensional or time travellers or from inside the Earth is a completely different story.
    Not being a believer by nature, I’ve always been fascinated by different things that people do believe and since I grew up in the UFO-soaked 1960s… I used to occasionally buy books or magazines on the topic and for a time had some familiarity with the main theories.
    I don’t pretend to know if some of them are of…. non-conventional origin but I don’t exclude the possibility out of hand…

    “seriously believes in astrology or Tarot”

    I’ve never been heavily into either but I’ve known people who were. One relative (since deceased) freelanced as a political campaign manager (extremely successfully) and one of his tools was astrology…. not detailed, but he had book that combined a western and Chinese astrology (144 signs) and the first thing he did was look up his candidate’s opponent… and he used that as a point of departure in planning the campaign.
    I do have a pack of tarot cards but haven’t touched it for over a decade…. I remember back in the US a Southern Baptist colleague was visiting, saw the deck on a shelf next to where she was standing. She drew in her breath as if it were a rattlesnake “You need to burn that!” was the advice….

    Like

      1. “Every human being is a believer by nature”

        I believe in things I can verify (or can be verified by those whose judgement I trust)… But I have no capacity for believing on the basis of (conventional) religious faith… in areas of metaphysics I’m a big ole agnostic.

        Like

        1. Everything you think you know you either know through your own experience, or on basis of authority. I say we need to parse all of it, everything we receive, in humility.

          You trust your senses? Your memory? Your intellect? You trust Authority?

          All you have is trust. Faith. From which follow hope and love.

          Hew to humility, hope, love, faith, trust. Please. Never despise convention. Please. Do not despise religion. We’ve received our language, our religion, the essential epistemic paradigm and prism through which our minds perceive reality from those who precede.

          Gnosticism is pride, agnosticism is humility. But you as an agnostic have nothing but faith to hew to Believe, then, Trust.

          Doubt is arrogance born of pride. Everything that is is true and real. Never doubt it.

          Like

          1. I’m the male oracle of Wildwood, tonight. Thirty years ago, I poured a Natty Light out on a table in front of my brother, and Tommy, both of whom doubt. “All you need is Love!” I shouted. I think it was Bob Dylan who wrote that line. He’s a genius.

            I’ve put down two rather decent bottles of Moldavi red, no Natty, tonight. I say it again, alone, without pounding any tables, this morning. All you need is love.

            I’m rather pleased that people have been putting guillotines up, lately. I hope to follow Sophie Scholl and Franz Jägerstätter into the execution chamber. They can ask me “do you believe Jesus?” I’ll say “yes” and then they’ll clip my head of like a Weiße Rose. That’ll be just the sort of cathartic release I’m as a consumer, am looking for.

            Much nicer than hanging suffocating for three hours, waiting for them to break your legs.

            Or working forty years in a beige cubicle waiting to to be euthanized.

            Like

  4. A Russian FB user looked at several American precedents which may let US courts to limit the power of social media giants:

    ПЕРВАЯ ПОПРАВКА К КОНСТИТУЦИИ,ТВИТТЕР и СВОБОДА СЛОВА.

    в 1946 году Верховный Суд рассматривал дело Marsh vs Alabama. В то время было много поселков, полностью принадлежащих корпорациям. Как бы завод, шахта, плантация плюс жилье. Читали ли вы «Гроздья Гнева» или смотрели ли фильм? Там описываются такие поселки в Калифорнии. Стейбнек, узнав и увидев их, был поражен до глубины души. И не мог не описать по сути рабскую жизнь их жителей в 30-х годах прошлого века. Именно рабскую.

    Вот в одном из таких частных городков Грейс Марш, член секты Свидетелей Иеговы, распространялa свою религиозную литературу возле почтового отделения. И компания, владеющая городком, запретила ей это делать. По закону о вторжении в частную собственность. Но Верховный Суд США решил дело в пользу религиозной проповедницы. В решении суда 1946 года пишется: «Чем в большей степени владелец, для собственной выгоды, открывает свою собственность для публики, тем больше его права ограничиваются конституционными и законодательными правами тех, кто ее использует. Даже если корпорация или мэрия и владеет городом, общество в любом случае имеет равную заинтересованность в том, чтобы это сообщество функционировало таким образом, чтобы каналы коммуникации оставались свободными».

    Второе. Процитированное выше решение суда в деле Marsh vs Alabama полностью применимо как прецедент к социальным сетям. Твиттер, фейсбук, гугл, открыли свои платформы для огромного количества людей. В принципе, для всего населения США уже. Причем, именно так, как там в решении суда написано. Отрыли для своей многотриллионной выгоды. И их права частных собственников, следовательно, ограничиваются конституционными правами всех нас. В частности, социальные сети не могут ограничивать наше право на свободу коммуникации. На свободу слова. Это решение Верховного Суда 1946 г. послужило краеугольным камнем, прецедентом, для целого ряда последующих случаев, о полудюжине которых я напишу ниже.

    Like

  5. Another user in a different discussion provided evidence (Manhattan Community Access Corp. v. Halleck) that:

    Ирония в том, что консервативные судьи, которых столь удачно для себя Трамп напихал в систему, как раз встают на точку зрения, что корпорации не попадают под первую поправку.

    https://ign.livejournal.com/139753.html

    Like

  6. I’m in a hobby where being into Tarot is a recreational hazard – these people are usually brilliant in all kinds of other ways, it’s just an unfortunate side effect of putting in too much effort to be quirky, like playing the ukulele or staircase guitar.

    UFOs, or, uh, speculative xenoanthropology, can be a pretty interesting topic to talk to be people about – given what we already know, what could alien life and culture look like? Could they already be here? It can also be a quagmire conversation with the curious but dumb, where the presence of aliens on earth is simultaneously a TV show proven fact, and a perfectly hidden secret no one else knows about.

    I haven’t really known that many people who are into astrology, but I don’t how the base mechanism by which it’s supposed to function could possibly be true, so any conversations involving that would immediately be iffy to me.

    Personally, I also have very strong sensations of deja vu, where I have something like paired experiences – one, anticipating a future experience, and another, where I recall the exact moment of anticipation. It feels a little bit like high-fiving yourself through time. The actual contents of the anticipation are pretty vague , but emotionally resonant – I get a sense of what my state would be like in the future, rather than what the future will be like. I remember being disturbed for a while after getting a couple of them.

    This kind of thing is apparently pretty common, and the scientific explanation is more or less that only the recollection is real, and the anticipatory moment is more or less constructed. While that’s exceedingly likely to be true, it certainly doesn’t feel like it, and I’m unlikely to drop a personal experience that feels like it’s real just because the reasonable consensus opinion is that it couldn’t possibly. Which in turn means that, as much as I don’t want to be a kook, a part of me essentially believes in prescience, precognition and prophecy.

    I don’t believe that any current knowledge that we have is infallible, or that the most important things to happen also need to be the most clear. It makes me more open to changing my mind and new information, but it also makes me more vulnerable to bullshit and nonsense. I’m usually happy to make the trade.

    Like

  7. Have you heard of Andrey Nikolayevich Illarionov? I was impressed after learning that he was ” Vladimir Putin’s senior economic adviser” and “the personal representative of the Russian president (sherpa) in the G8,” yet had conscience and courage to take a stand against Putin:

    “On 27 December 2005, Illarionov offered his resignation in protest against the government course, saying that Russia was no longer politically free, but ran by an authoritarian elite.” He also protected Ukraine after 2014.

    After moving to US, he started to work as “senior researcher of the Center for Global Liberty and Prosperity of the US libertarian think tank Cato Institute in Washington, DC”

    Btw, it seems Russians go from one extreme to another: if you’re not for authocracy – go libertarian, jumping over my preferred middle path of welfare nation state like Israel.

    Why am I writing about him?

    Illarionov seemed to believe American image as the land of the free a bit too much and lost his job at the Cato Institute after criticizing last US elections, BLM and press coverage of Capitol Hill riots … in Russian in Russian lj platform.

    This is the post that may cost him his job. Imo you would agree with 90% of it at the least:

    «Поджог Рейхстага» – 2021
    https://aillarionov.livejournal.com/1215661.html

    Received news from here:

    Обана! Как я и опасался на днях (в посте “Илларионов рискует”), в отношении Илларионова уже пошли репрессии – пока что его собираются погнать с работы. По доносу. Там, в США, в Вашингтоне. И знаете за что? За его пост в ЖЖ! Натурально – объявлено, что конкретно за пост его уже вызвали “на ковер” к руководству Института Катона. Я даже не понимаю, как руководство может “обсуждать” с Илларионовым его пост – они что, читают по-русски? Не видел, чтобы Илларионов давал его англоязычную версию. Стало быть, пост перевели – и теперь шьют ему целое дело. Как бы “антиамериканскую деятельность” не пришили в итоге, в лучших американских традициях – тогда он увольнением не отделается. Демократы мстительны – могут и посадить лет на 10. А вы говорите – бан в Твиттере.

    https://sapojnik.livejournal.com/3412822.html#comments

    Like

  8. Re “UFOs and Astrology”, I am unsure why asking Tarot regarding the date of the wedding or a child’s name is not kosher and shows a person incapable of being respected and trusted in unrelated fields in a way that asking a rabbi’s advice, including medical advice, is not.

    For instance, one quote from an article on covid: ” Given that haredi politicians (including the minister of health!) found themselves following the uninformed edicts of nonagenarian rabbis rather than legally binding governmental decisions, resulting, as Pfeffer notes, in a disproportionate number of deaths in their own community”.

    So, to answer your question, I would go and look closely at every case to judge whether this person may be trusted in a certain matter. Would trust a proven neurosurgeon regarding my health, but not on the subject of Tarot.

    As an atheist in Israel, I have no joice but to trust religious people on various other matters. 🙂

    CRC’s comments about the importance of faith (if I understood them correctly) made me feel a bit like discussions of ‘UFOs and aliens’ or believing ‘in astrology or Tarot.’

    “Please. Never despise convention. Please. Do not despise religion. We’ve received our language, our religion, the essential epistemic paradigm and prism through which our minds perceive reality from those who precede. …
    Doubt is arrogance born of pride”

    People differentiate between believing in religion and convention (the way THEY currently define it) and believing in Zionism or Russian nationalism, communism, Woke ideology or transhumanism. (My examples may not be religions, yet they are / have definitely been conventions at some point of time and place. )

    Why?

    I do not see any reason to apart from being socialized (conditioned / brainwashed / choose your pick) from birth to believe in certain things. And am extremely glad to have escaped such conditioning in my childhood when children believe whatever their parents and society tell them.

    Btw, which faith should one adopt? Why not Judaism or Islam? Buddhism or Taoism (both of which are formally recognized by Chinese government among the 5 religions)?

    Protestant / Catholic wars killed millions in Europe, is the difference important now? Should it be? Were CRC or me born then, would we fight over respecting ancestors and remaining Catholic vs. having faith in Protestantism, or being persecuted for believing in the original, most ancestral of the three faith of Judaism?

    After all, religious wars and persecution are also our heritage. Why leave them in the past?

    Like

  9. UFOs exist, see what Cliff has written. The probability that there is life elsewhere in the Universe is asymptotically approaching 100%. The mathematical proof of that is very simple and one can find it in (at least some) introductory probability theory books. Is one thing related to another? I have no idea. But in principle this is not impossible.

    Astrology, on the other hand is a different story…

    Like

    1. A welcome flash of humor in a thread that’s gotten way too fraught. 🙂

      All immigrants are called aliens in the US. I was “non-resident alien” and then “resident alien” for at least 10 years.

      Still never saw a single UFO, and I was a real alien, too!

      Like

        1. I have noticed that women get turned off by talk of UFOs and men by talk of astrology and wanted to see if it’s true. That was the point of this post for me.

          I’m seeing that I was right, and men do take the subject of UFOs very seriously. But not all of them, so that’s good. 🙂

          Like

      1. If it helps to lighten things up, I saw a UFO once. I was sitting on a balcony at night with two other people. I was in my 20s, everybody was drinking beer, and the property was located at the edge of a beach nature reserve, so we could see for a long way.

        In the distance appeared a – this is difficult to describe – a swoosh of blue light, that came in from the South travelling parallel with the atmosphere (ie it was going sideways at a more or less fixed height above the planet) and then suddenly did a 90 or so degree turn that was quite sharp and then shot out into space. It was sort of like a slow moving meteor, except much closer, much bigger, slower, with gentler light, and was a luminescent azure blue. When it shot out into space, it was moving very fast, as if it were a meteor. So, thinking on it now, it seems to have sped up.

        Anyway I jumped up at the same time as the person next to me followed by lots of exclamations and “did you see that?!?”s and “wtf!!”s then lamentations from the other person who didn’t see it because he was facing the wrong way.

        No idea what it was. Never seen once since. Wonder if it was just some strange natural phenomenon or something.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. “immigrants are called aliens in the US”

        When I was a child (at a time of very low immigration) I remember public service announcements on TV advising that aliens living in the US needed to register with the government every year (or if they changed address).
        I’m not gonna say for sure I thought they were taking about UFO style aliens….. but I’m not gonna say I didn’t either.

        Liked by 1 person

  10. I’m all for divination tools like I Ching, astrology, Tarot. But you have to realize these are texts to interpret, tools to aid reflection and give insight. They’re not magic — although I do think the natural cycles, sunrise, the new moon, etc., do have energies that influence the general atmosphere. The part of all of this I do NOT get is that I’m vaguely psychic – – will sometimes just know something is going to happen, someone is going to call, etc. — and I can’t explain it except to guess there must be some sort of scientific basis for this, I don’t think it’s magic either

    Like

    1. Hey, today I went to the grocery store in the morning and I just knew I was going to meet my husband there. He never goes to this store and I never ran into him there before. But I just knew he was going to be there. And of course he was.

      Poor guy, I read his thoughts now. He can’t escape from me anywhere. But yes, this thing is absolutely real. Many times, he’d come to my room from across the house and ask, “What’s wrong? I felt that something bad happened and you are upset.” And I’d just received an upsetting email. He’d feel the bad energy through the walls. I also know his emotional state as I approach the house before even seeing him.

      I don’t understand how people manage to cheat on their spouses. My emotional life is an open book to mine.

      Like

  11. It depends. People who get into astrology/tarot and also purport to be practicing Christians… that’s really dicey. We have rules about that.

    In general, though, belief in UFOs or use of astrology/tarot doesn’t make or break my opinion of the person I’m dealing with, no. I mean, there clearly are things people see in the sky that they don’t have a good explanation for. The field’s wide open for speculation, and favoring one fanciful explanation over another doesn’t invalidate your analysis of more practical things that you have actual experience with. Everybody’s got their area of expertise. My mechanic believes some fairly bizarre things, but regarding cars, I trust him almost as much as I trust God.

    My aunt used to draw up astrological charts for a living. She was fairly nuts, but an interesting person. I regard most popular astrology and tarot largely as readily-available aids for making decisions in conditions of inadequate information.

    That said, there are degrees and shades of everything. People who are really, REALLY into either UFOs or astrology etc. … eh. In my limited experience, they tend, like my aunt, to be crazy. But it’s not the belief in UFOs or astrology that makes them crazy, it’s the other way around, and you notice the crazy long before you find out about the UFOs, so the peculiar belief is not a useful warning sign.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. “it’s not the belief in UFOs or astrology that makes them crazy, it’s the other way around, and you notice the crazy long before you find out about the UFOs”

      Very true. And there’s a difference between Believing in UFOs They Kidnap Me All the TIME!!! and occasionally speculating about things we don’t yet understand.
      It’s like telepathy – there’s evidence that something like it exists but we don’t have a handle on what exactly it is or how it operates which is very different form I Can Read Their Minds!!!!!
      I too had an aunt with….. an interesting take on the universe (including telepathy and aliens among us as settlers and a bunch o’ other stuff). She was actually pretty functional in most ways but if you hit upon one of her topics… like i said, interesting.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. Exactly. Though I should add that I trust the church in these matters, and do actually believe that A) malign spirits exist (as a longtime sufferer of sleep paralysis, it would be difficult to convince me otherwise), and that B) divination opens the possibility of contacting them, and is best avoided. I don’t think that everyone who engages in it is constantly contacting malign entities though. From what I’ve seen, it seems more like picking up the telephone and dialing a semi-random number. Sometimes you get an answer, and sometimes you don’t. But when you do, you have no idea who you’re talking to or what their intentions are. So there’s that.

        But I’ve known people who were totally crippled by trying to make decisions with incomplete information. Take them to an ethnic restaurant where all the food is unfamiliar, and they’ll have a mini nervous breakdown trying to order lunch. They’d be so much better off if they opened a fortune cookie, checked their lucky numbers, and said “I’ll have the number five and the number twelve, please!” and regarded the results as fate. I suspect that this is the way that astrology functions for the majority of people who use it. It would not be a thing if it did not serve a practical purpose for people.

        Liked by 1 person

        1. “the way that astrology functions for the majority of people who use it”

          I think that astrology and tarot also…. help people get in touch with their feelings/intuitions (a bit like lb says at 11.29)
          I suspect that both are forms of self-therapy (as is very strong belief in things like UFOs for that matter).

          Like

          1. Of course, it’s an innocent coping strategy. That is, unless you avoid going to the doctor with serious symptoms and use magic instead. I always say, do both! Get checked out at the doctor’s and then do your Tarot thing.

            Like

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.