26 thoughts on “Been Had”

  1. Given what’s coming out about how the vaccines not only don’t prevent infection, but they allow vaccinated people to build up extremely high viral loads while not having symptoms… I am very concerned about a Marek’s scenario developing. Looking at this… my attitude toward vaccines used to be “get one if you want one”. Now I’m leaning toward “the lower the density of vaccinated people, the better.”

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    1. I’m interested in what the official narrative is. It’s all the fault of the unvaccinated, OK. But a year ago, everybody was unvaccinated. And the numbers were lower. How do they explain it? Last August in Illinois we were out of the lockdown. It restarted in late Fall. So it couldn’t have been that. The mask mandate in the state is identical. What changed? Other than vaccinations, I got nothing. They got to have a narrative, so what is it?

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      1. Yeah. I am not willing to be a frontline volunteer for human medical testing (I have young kids! But I salute the people who willingly with full informed consent do sign up for that– it beats unethical testing on African villages…), and fully expected an outsized number of negative side effects from the things, but at the very least, I figured it might actually work as a vaccine.

        That does not appear to be the case. So… what now? It is looking more and more like we have just conducted a very irresponsible failed medical experiment on millions of people. How are they gonna spin that?

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      1. Marek scenario is when a virus becomes more dangerous as a result of vaccination. It mutates to adapt and since this isn’t a sterilizing vaccine (meaning it doesn’t destroy the virus), this is very likely.

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      3. Uh, the short, not-a-virologist version: Marek’s is a disease in chickens. It used to kill a fair number of chickens and caused not-insignificant financial losses in commercial chicken-houses. A vaccine was developed, and now pretty much every commercially-raised chick is vaccinated for the disease. On the surface, it looks like the vaccine was a raging success: vaccinated chickens don’t die of Marek’s. The problem is, it’s a “leaky” vaccine. The chickens don’t die, but they do still get infected, and spread the virus to other chickens. This appears to have led to the virus evolving to become more virulent over time.

        It happens like this: viruses, in order to keep spreading, can’t just kill the host immediately. That limits disease vectors pretty sharply. Over time, viruses naturally evolve to become less virulent because otherwise they can’t keep spreading. But in the Marek’s vaccine scenario, the virus can be pretty damn virulent and still not kill the chickens, because they’re all vaccinated. This seems to have led to a couple of very negative results:

        1) It is now very difficult to have chickens and not vaccinate them. Previously, MD would kill a certain small percentage of the flock, you’d cull any sick birds, and you’d then have a closed flock: you didn’t bring in any new birds or sell your birds to anyone else, creating a virus dead-end. With the vaccine, infection is really common, and you wouldn’t know about it unless you tested, so it gets to spread without limits. Because of the vaccine, and because chickens can have a pretty high viral load without getting sick and spread it around to all the other chickens, etc. there is no evolutionary pressure for the virus to become less virulent, like you’d see in a natural evolutionary process. Instead, it seems to have gotten more virulent over time, so now, if you have a flock of un-vaccinated chickens, and they get exposed to the disease, they all die +(see footnote).

        2) Because the virus is apparently getting more virulent over time as a result of vaccination, the vaccines are also getting less effective over time.

        So the mass-vaccination program for Marek’s seems to have actively bred a more virulent form of the disease, made it virtually impossible to raise chickens without vaccinating them for this disease, and the vaccines are becoming less effective with time, so it’s now an arms race: we can either keep continually developing more-effective vaccines for the disease to keep ahead of it, or eventually, the virulence of the virus will overtake the effectiveness of the vaccine, and the entire poultry industry will be poleaxed by it. Which probably would not have happened if there wasn’t a vaccine, and we continued to simply cull sick birds and close flocks that tested positive for MD.

        Caveat: I am a mere layperson, and there are probably aspects of this that I don’t understand or have explained badly.

        +Marek’s is spread by feather particulates. Because of this, it does not seem to be much of a problem outside industrial poultry production: birds that are kept outdoors most of the time, allowed good forage and high-quality feed, and are given plenty of space, don’t seem to have much problem with MD, even if they are not vaccinated. This solution was not, of course, pursued by the poultry industry.

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        2. We’ve all had to get ready to defend doctoral dissertations in virology to withstand the barrage of propaganda. I’ve lived my whole life knowing nothing about leaky vaccines, animal reserves, and T-cell driven immunity. But I’m not an obedient robot who takes whatever somebody says on TV. I’m a rational human being and I will get informed before taking anything.

          The standard gotcha of “do you know how Tylenol works, then?” is useless with me because no, I don’t. And that’s precisely why I don’t take Tylenol. “Taking” something as a standard response to an ailment has always been utterly alien to my way of thinking. And people from a culture that regaled the world with the opioid epidemic should be a little humbler on this issue.

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          1. Heh. I knew about it from having a small flock of chickens. Mine were home-hatched by someone’s broody hen, and not vaccinated, so it was a concern. They were never ill a day in their lives. But I probably should have been more concerned about hawks… live and learn, live and learn.

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          2. …and yeah, I don’t know how Tylenol works either, but I do know it’s extremely toxic to your liver and I had some wacky and disturbing side-effects from it, so I stopped taking it a long time ago. Do I need to know how it works to make that decision? Nope.

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            1. Even if you knew how it works, you’d know that it attaches to this and this receptor and interrupts this and this pathway. Hard to know how many other proteins the drugs interacts with and what long term damage it causes.

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            2. I was stunned to discover when I moved to the US that all of my childless 30-year-old peers had something called “a medicine cabinet.” I still don’t have a medicine cabinet. Now that I’m a mom, I have a first-aid box with bandages and antiseptic. I’m not planning on a medicine cabinet for the next 20 years, God willing. People are gigantically overmedicated, in my opinion.

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              1. I grew up very American in that whenever you get a fever, a sniffle, a headache, or whatever, you “take something for it”. But with frequent severe migraines, and painful menstrual issues, that led to me taking a whole lot of something for it. I never exceeded the recommended dosage, but I developed problems with NSAIDs over time, that became worse than what I was using them to treat. So with age, I’ve gone from being a “take something” well-stocked medicine cabinet sort of person to an “I’m not taking anything unless I’m dying and it’s necessary to save my life” sort of person. And now I can’t figure out how we got so blase about drugs in this country. Don’t people notice how miserable the drugs are making them? I think they don’t make the connection, they just see a new weird symptom, and they take something else for it. It’s disturbing.

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      4. “You’ve mentioned before Marek’s scenario. What is it actually?”

        If I may:

        You know how people are given antibiotics to kill bacterial infections, and told that they have to finish all of the antibiotics even if they have gotten better to make sure the bug has been killed? They are told that because the last thing we want to happen is for some of the bacteria to survive antibiotics that weren’t given for long enough.

        Bacteria can get used to antibiotics that aren’t given to people for long enough, and then develop a resistance to them so that they become so-called “super-bugs” that don’t die even when people take antibiotics. Super bugs then go on to kill many people, with an example being, say, Golden Staph.

        Well, the same thing can happen with poorly made vaccines.

        What happens there is that really good vaccines result in making people’s immune system so strong against a particular virus that the virus can’t infect them, which means that viruses can never get into someones body and evolve to become an even deadlier virus.

        On the other hand, when people are given vaccines that aren’t very good, it means that the virus can actually get into their body and start evolving/mutating. Eventually, one of the mutant virus strains becomes much deadlier than the original virus and starts killing everyone even if they get vaccinated.

        That is what happened with Marek’s disease. There was a mild virus that was around for decades, that made chickens sick. Not many died, but some did. Then the chickens were given a vaccine that wasn’t very good, which meant that they still got infected by the virus. Since the virus got into the chickens, it had a chance to mutate, just like bacteria can mutate inside people who stop taking antibiotics too quickly.

        As a result, the virus mutated, and instead of making chickens sick with only a few of them dying, it killed every chicken that wasn’t vaccinated within a couple of weeks, and killed many vaccinated ones too.

        Regarding COVID, it is possible that the untested, ineffective vaccines people are taking will lead to more people being infected with the virus, getting used to those vaccines, and giving the virus a chance to mutate into a super-COVID that is so bad that people will need a vaccine just to have a chance of not dying, with many dying anyway.

        That is what is meant by talking about a Marek’s scenario regarding COVID.

        Apologies to both Clarissa and methylethyl for posting across them. Since the issue is important I thought to offer up a differently structured explanation that might be easier for some people to understand.

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          1. “I love it when I can read multiple explanations from different angles”

            That was the intention. I get the feeling that your concerns about Marek’s will be more and more justified as time goes on, which means that it will probably benefit everyone to have more than one mode of explanation available in our/their memories.

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