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Jews

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Yesterday I met with a friend who is a child of Holocaust survivors.

“We were brought up to be ashamed of being Jewish,” she said. “We grew up feeling there was something deficient about us. This is why just now when you asked me if I were Jewish I flinched and looked around to see if anybody was hearing us. I know on a logical level that there is nothing to fear or be ashamed of but this feeling goes too deep for logic.”

“I know,” I said. “I felt the same, my father felt the same when he was growing up, everybody did. It took me a long time to get rid of this feeling and not to flinch whenever anybody said the word ‘Jew.’”

35 responses to “Jews”

  1. Sandra Heine Merchant Avatar
    Sandra Heine Merchant

    How odd that while so many who are Jewish were/are feeling shame, other people are wanting to claim Jewish blood. What is with this desire among non-Jews to claim some tiny degree of Jewish heritage? Are they wanting to feel better about the horrible treatment of the Jews over the centuries? Maybe that’s why so many people also want to find that elusive “Indian princess” in family tree.

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      I’ve noticed this phenomenon. The biggest surviving stereotype about Jews is that we are smart, successful and own the world. 🙂 I guess everybody wants to claim some of that.:-)

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      1. Sandra Heine Merchant Avatar
        Sandra Heine Merchant

        Must be.

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  2. el Avatar
    el

    As you said, it’s not unique to being a child of Holocaust survivors. I feel great about being Jewish in Israel, but abroad would wonder why somebody is that interested in my nationality.

    // I know on a logical level that there is nothing to fear or be ashamed of

    Not exactly. Antisemitism isn’t dead yet, and non-Jews wondering to what extent you’re Jewish may be such. In addition, I would wonder whether a speaker wants to verbally attack me for being responsible for Middle East conflict in his eyes, even had I been a Jew who has never visited Israel.

    Very interesting, informative article about Belgium:
    http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Anti-Semitism-in-Belgium-reaches-new-heights-326993

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      “Not exactly. Antisemitism isn’t dead yet, and non-Jews wondering to what extent you’re Jewish may be such.”

      – Last year, an administrator prepared a memo where he listed everybody in the department as Jewish, noting in the memo who was Ashkenazi and who was Sephardic. My colleague from Argentina flipped because there anti-semitism is really rabid. I didn’t mind but I’m younger and I emigrated when I was young. The administrator in question is also Jewish, by the way.

      “In addition, I would wonder whether a speaker wants to verbally attack me for being responsible for Middle East conflict in his eyes, even had I been a Jew who has never visited Israel.”

      – Actually, yes, that’s another thing this colleague said. And she has, indeed, never visited Israel.

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      1. Clarissa Avatar
        Clarissa

        “He notes that opinion polls indicate that nearly half of all European adults – close to 150 million people – are today convinced that Israelis behave toward the Palestinians like the Nazis did toward the Jews”

        – What is it with people who conduct such polls? All I see in such question is, “All those semitic people are the same, so who cares about them?” If Europeans are so worried about the (really tragic) plight of Palestinians, why are they not opening and facilitating the emigration of every Palestinian who wishes into their countries? I actually care about Palestinians. And not in the “let’s stick it to the Jews” way. If there was a program for Palestinians to emigrate to my community, I’d gladly donate money, skills and time to help them integrate.

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      2. el Avatar
        el

        // Last year, an administrator prepared a memo where he listed everybody in the department as Jewish,

        A memo for what and whom? Would students be able to see nationalities of profs? What for?

        Is *everybody* in your department Jewish?!

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        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          “Is *everybody* in your department Jewish?!”

          – We are in academia, my friend. Everybody is Jewish. 🙂 You should see the English department. 🙂

          “A memo for what and whom?”

          – We were asked to show that we are ethnically diverse. As if our list of last names weren’t enough. 🙂 No, it wasn’t for the students (who don’t even know who Jews are, mostly.)

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  3. el Avatar
    el

    I think Europeans don’t really care, but are glad to find any excuses for publicly expressing their anti-semitic feelings. Look at the examples in the article. Those attacked Europian Jews have nothing to do with my country, but sometimes their children can’t go to usual school?! Reminds me of the Germany’s anti-Jew propaganda campaigns.

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  4. el Avatar
    el

    // I know on a logical level that there is nothing to fear

    See a comment from Jerusalem post article:

    “I currently live in Europe. Showing your Jewishness is taking a non negligible risk in most of its big cities. But you’re right, we’re in 1930, not 1942.”

    “So we should ignore the fact that a Jew dare not wear a Kippah in Belgium, France or Sweden? That a schoolgirl can be beaten up on a tram just because she looks Jewish? That in Holland, a journalist who exposed anti-Semitism among youth had to go into hiding?”

    And another person arrives to a conclusion:

    “Since we are living in such terrible anti Semitic World the answer is simple . Israel must not give away our LANDS and but keep them so we can have place for our Jewish family. Also the 1967 boarders are indefensible, and we give in, and give away our land we are looking for second extermination. Just look what the Arabs are doing to each other do you really think they will be nicer to us.”

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  5. el Avatar
    el

    Explanation (from comments) what’s wrong with Belgium:

    “Who do Belgians hate more than Jews? Themselves!

    If there wouldn’t be Jews to hate the Walloons & Flemish would be in a sectarian war a long time ago. So deep is their hate towards each other.

    Like this they can fend their anger towards Jews, Israel & “”palestine””, instead of dealing with their own divided country in which “”language”” is the biggest problem.”

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  6. amspirnational Avatar
    amspirnational

    “The horrible treatment of Jews over the centuries?”….

    Anybody read Professor Israel Shahak’s great book on the causes of anti-Semitism?

    http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-History-Religion-Israel-Shahak/dp/074530818X

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    1. el Avatar
      el

      // Anybody read Professor Israel Shahak’s great book on the causes of anti-Semitism?

      In short: Judaism is to blame for antisemitism. Why am I not surprised? 🙂 From reviews:

      // He seems deeply toubled by the rigidity, and intolerance of Jewish religion.

      It’s true for “Orthodox” version of all religions. (Shahak discusses only “Orthodox” Judaism in his book)

      // Shahak quotes from the Talmud and points out a pervasive Jewish racism and haughtiness toward non-Jews.

      It’s also true for Islam and Christianity.

      // He believes that anti-semitism may have its roots in this historic Jewish mindset.

      Since all 3 major “Orthodox” religions are inherently enemies and can’t accept living near each other (it follows from what he describes), Jews must have their state with enough land for all Europian (and probably one day USA) Jews, who won’t be suffered because of their “mindset” / religion.

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      1. Clarissa Avatar
        Clarissa

        ” Judaism is to blame for antisemitism.”

        – Gosh, where have I heard this before? Was it from the same people who said that Jews are to blame for the Holocaust and Hitler was a Jew anyways?

        How incredibly boring.

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      2. el Avatar
        el

        // – Gosh, where have I heard this before?

        Still, that’s only the impression I got from the few reviews (and now think it may not reflect the book, so I probably was too quick to judge) and, naturally, antisemitic people are all over books of Jews criticizing Israel. And write reviews through their antisemitic lens. May be, the book is deeper and worth reading. Look at the biography, now I think it’s probably worth reading:

        “Israel Shahak (born Himmelstaub, April 28, 1933 – July 2, 2001) was a Polish-born Holocaust survivor and Israeli professor of chemistry at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, known especially as a liberal secular political thinker, author, and civil rights activist. Between 1970–1990, he was president of the Israeli League for Human and Civil Rights and was an outspoken critic of the Israeli government. Shahak’s writings on Judaism have been a source of widespread controversy.”

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        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          I hate Judaism. I hate all organized religions. Of course, I hate Christianity the most because I am a Christian and the organized Christians sully things that matter to me.

          I was at my grief support group last month and one woman said, “I was reading my Bible the other day and it said. . .”

          I felt like she had hit me in the face. If she’d said, “I was reading my Koran or my Torah”, I would have had zero reaction because Koran and Torah don’t mean anything to me (other than Koran being phenomenal poetry). But she said “the Bible” and I just wanted to run away and hide at that point.

          That’s the price of living in the Bible Belt, I guess! 🙂

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      3. cliff arroyo Avatar
        cliff arroyo

        I haven’t read the book and don’t intend to, but AFAIC very orthodox Judaism is hardly a barrel of laughs, is not really tolerant at all (like Islam the more I learn about it, the less I like it) and more or less requires followers to embrace an outsider mentality and see the world in ‘us vs them’ terms.

        The very orthodox Jews in Israel are a constant source of trouble and friction – first in line for handouts while claiming all kinds of special treatment and being a general economic drag and doing classy and charming things like throwing feces at women who don’t know their proper place.

        Secular or non-religious Jewish people are fun to be around but for the orthodox the world is forever 18th century Russia and everyone else is a tsarist thug (I’m guessing at the dates and political particulars but the idea holds).

        If orthodox Jews can irritate secular Jews so much maybe it’s not a mystery why they were never very popular as neighbors.

        Of course that doesn’t excuse violent oppression or stupid beliefs about all Jews being a malevolent presence but why like a group of people who don’t like you either?

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      4. el Avatar
        el

        // If orthodox Jews can irritate secular Jews so much maybe it’s not a mystery why they were never very popular as neighbors.

        Cliff, I have a few problems with it. You mention Judaism and Islam, but don’t refer to very orthodox Christianity. Is it prettier somehow? All 3 religions “require followers to embrace an outsider mentality and see the world in ‘us vs them’ terms”

        Another problem is of painting all epochs in today’s colors /terms. Centuries ago, non – Jews were very religious too. The world was very different from today, and Jews in practice could either be the way you described OR convert into very orthodox, intolerant Muslims / Christians.

        Also, often Jews were kept in (not WW2 definition) ghettoes for centuries and prevented from getting secular education and participating in wider society.

        With decline of religiousity and emancipation, many Jews were happy to get secular education and know more about non-Jewish world. Some even managed to stay religious while doing so. 🙂

        //Secular or non-religious Jewish people are fun to be around but for the orthodox

        There also exists Reform & Progressive Judaism. It’s not “either atheist or 18th century Russia”.

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      5. cliff arroyo Avatar
        cliff arroyo

        “You mention Judaism and Islam, but don’t refer to very orthodox Christianity. Is it prettier somehow? All 3 religions “require followers to embrace an outsider mentality and see the world in ‘us vs them’ terms”

        Actually Xtianity and Islam see the world in “already us” and “not yet us” terms. Proselytizing has that effect (though the means preferred by each to hasten the ‘becoming us’ proces varies by religion/sect).

        As for orthodox Christianity do you mean Orthodox (big group of non-Roman catholics) or extreme conservative theist Christians. The latter are unpleasant and scary but have very little real power or influence.

        “Also, often Jews were kept in (not WW2 definition) ghettoes for centuries and prevented from getting secular education and participating in wider society.”

        Yes, enforced segregation had a role (as it does in creating any socially unpopular minrotiy). The problems come when the segregation is embraced by the minority.

        “There also exists Reform & Progressive Judaism. It’s not “either atheist or 18th century Russia”.

        I put reform and progressives in the secular camp (that is they recognize secular authority) and wasn’t referring to atheists at all since, as an American, Jewish for me refers to someone following a religion and if they’re not following it to the point of calling themselves athiests they’re not Jews anymore than I’m a Christian.

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  7. el Avatar
    el

    Clarissa, if you decide to read Shavak’s book, I would love to read your take on it. The description does sound interesting, even if I passionately disagree with his advocating for the destruction of my state:

    Shahak, who came to Israel in 1945 after surviving the concentration camp in Belsen during the Holocaust, contends that the potential for Israel’s right-wing Jewish religious movements to seize power represents a threat to the peace of Israel and to the Zionist movement. He posits that Israel as a Jewish state constitutes a danger not only to itself and its inhabitants, but to all Jews and to all other people and states in the Middle East. Shahak, who was raised as an Orthodox Jew, condemns what he sees as discrimination against non-Jewish citizens of Israel. The real test facing both Israeli and diaspora Jews is the test of their self-criticism, which must include the critique of the Jewish past. Most disturbing, Shahak insists that the religion, in its classical and talmudic form, is “poisoning minds and hearts.” This controversial attack of Israel by a Jew is bound to alarm Jewry worldwide. George Cohen

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  8. el Avatar
    el

    OMG, I went to look at Shavak’s book and among “Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought” found this jewel:

    Jewish Domination of Weimar Germany

    Jewish Domination of Weimar Germany was the National Socialist government’s first English-language attempt to explain the rationale behind their legislative moves to restrict Jewish influence in Germany after 1933. Using official pre-Nazi-era demographics, this work showed that Jews were massively over-represented in all fields of German social and economic life—except that of farming and creative work. It lists the ownership of mass media in Weimar Germany, the astonishing financial scandals, Communism and political subversion, degenerate theater, sexual psychology, Communist indoctrination in educational institutions and the media—all of which was predominantly Jewish in origin. This new edition contains the entire original text and illustrations, and benefits from a series of appendixes which reveal: – The measures taken by the Nazi state against Jews; – Details of the Havaara transfer Agreement whereby the Nazi government and the World Zionist movement worked together to help create the state of Israel; – The World Jewish declaration of war against Germany in 1933; and – A series of eye-opening parallels between Weimar Germany and the present-day United States of America, showing exactly the same trends of Jewish domination of educational institutions, the mass media, and financial scandals—proof that history does repeat itself.

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  9. el Avatar
    el

    // As for orthodox Christianity do you mean Orthodox (big group of non-Roman catholics) or extreme conservative theist Christians.

    The second.

    For centuries a vast majority of Christians has been anything but tolerant to anybody else, and they had plenty of “real power or influence.” Jews got pogroms, forced conversions, forced segregation, etc. It’s not a tiny thing.

    // The problems come when the segregation is embraced by the minority.

    What do you mean by “embraced”? Jews wanted to keep their religion, and gentile society wasn’t ready to let them exit the ghettoized position otherwise. Is it embracing the segregation?

    I think the discourse about embracing segregation or not has sense in Europe only after emancipation and seclurization of both Jews and others.

    Besides, may be I am mistaken, but the feeling I get is similar to blaming the oppressed (don’t like the word, but it’s the best I can think of, for now) for letting the oppression influence their souls. “Yes, you’re hated and segregated and etc, but you should continue dreaming of joining those wonderful gentiles and not embrace segregation.”

    // I put reform and progressives in the secular camp (that is they recognize secular authority) and wasn’t referring to atheists at all since, as an American, Jewish for me refers to someone following a religion and if they’re not following it to the point of calling themselves athiests they’re not Jews anymore than I’m a Christian.

    Orthodox Jews also recognize secular authority. For instance, in USA they work in usual jobs (more than in Israel), pay taxes (in Israel too) and recognize need to follow the laws of their country (as long as they’re not against religion, but it’s the same for progressives).

    Whether you’re an American or not, the word “Jew” also refers to nationality. I am sure there are many Americans, who define themselves as both Jewish and atheistic.

    And Israel was founded by non religious Jews, who somehow aren’t Jews according to you. 🙂 My family isn’t religious, but we’re Jews. No matter where: Russia, Israel, America, etc.

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    1. cliff arroyo Avatar
      cliff arroyo

      “For centuries a vast majority of Christians has been anything but tolerant to anybody else”
      Your choice of tense implies you think this intolerance is current. Can you give examples? Preferably of state instiutions in Christian majority countries being intolerant of non-Christians?

      “the word “Jew” also refers to nationality”
      This is one of those things I’ll never understand, the difference in world view is too different. For me, raised in a racially mixed (black and white) nominally christian environment but essentially a non-believer since the age of 10 or so I find it hard to comprehend
      a) equating ethnicity and religion and
      b) clinging to a label after rejecting its defining characteristic. It’s one of those things we’ll have to agree to disagree about “atheist jew” makes as much sense to me as “hetereosexual lesbian”.

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      1. el Avatar
        el

        // a) equating ethnicity and religion

        What is ethnicity of Jews, if not Jewish? If it’s too hard, take even only Ashkenazi Jews.
        What is their nationality? Or are they the only people in the world w/o nationality? 🙂

        Btw, I read than genetic tests also found more in similar between Ashkenazi and Sfaradi Jews than between Jews and citizens of countries where Jews lived.

        I was raised in Ukraine, where there are no other races (till today) and discourse concerns nationalities only.

        As Germans have German ethnicity and nationality, Jews – Jewish. Otherwise, what is it?

        // b) clinging to a label after rejecting its defining characteristic.

        What is the defining characteristic of the word “Jew” is in dispute among Jews themselves. 🙂 However, even most extreme Orthodox Jews won’t see atheist Jew as a non-Jew. (They will see him as a “bad Jew.”) Judaism isn’t a missionary religion, but Orthodox Jews are very happy to behave as missionaries towards non-believing Jews, trust me. And they don’t behave so towards gentiles.

        Israel defines as a Jew any member of the nationality (only mother’s nationality counts), who hasn’t converted to other religion. Secular Jewish (as opposed to Arab) Israelis see as Jews both people born with Jewish nationality and religious converts (or “converts”).

        By “converts” I mean non believing immigrants, whose mother isn’t Jewish. During army service f.e., they can officially convert, even though most lie and don’t believe in God, with everybody understanding it. What is important to most secular Israelis is that their children will be recognized as Jews by rabanut, as part of the Jewish people, and believing in God often isn’t part of the concern for them at all.

        If the state of Israel and Orthodox Jews see (in practice) being a Jew as either faith or nationality, who are we to object? 🙂

        // Your choice of tense implies you think this intolerance is current. Can you give examples? Preferably of state instiutions in Christian majority countries being intolerant of non-Christians?

        I meant in the past, but today a person on the street doesn’t tend to like Others, which includes races, religions, nationalities, etc.

        And most citizens in Christian majority countries aren’t “deep believers”. Many are even atheists and agnostics, others say they’re Christians but don’t mean too much by it.

        Btw, I would define as intolerant the kind of Christians that support Israel because of believing that when every Jew reaches Israel, we will be killed and the end of the world will come (with all Jews going to hell).

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        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          If genetics testing can determine Jewish ancestry, what else is there to discuss? Science trumps opinions, even those of Orthodox Jews. 🙂

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      2. el Avatar
        el

        // Your choice of tense implies you think this intolerance is current.

        Forgot to mention antisemitism on the street, and state institutions teaching school children that “Nazis vs Jews” = “Jews vs Palestinians in Middle East conflict.”

        I don’t think only state instiutions count. How people on the street behave counts not less, and in the end influences state instiutions.

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      3. Clarissa Avatar
        Clarissa

        Not practicing Judaism for generations doesn’t make Jews change the DNA they share and that predisposes them to certain diseases, for instance. When i go to see a doctor and I’m asked if I have Jewish ethnicity, should I pretend I dont because I don’t go to a synagogue and risk being misdiagnosed?

        Every Soviet Jew was non-religious. And that in no way made us less Jewish. In Russian, the words for a Jew and a person who practices Judaism are completely different. It’s hardly my problem that English-speakers didn’t manage to find equivalents to both these words.

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      4. cliff arroyo Avatar
        cliff arroyo

        “If genetics testing can determine Jewish ancestry, what else is there to discuss?”

        I can understand genetic markers and if they’re unique and important enough then I can understand a Jewish ethnicity* but AFAIK those aren’t really the common determiners of jewishness.

        For the sake of the kind of inane theoretical argument I like, if a female convert to Judaism has children who abandon the religion are they still Jewish?

        *I agree a way of distinguishing ethnicity and religion for Jewish people is badly needed in English

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        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          “For the sake of the kind of inane theoretical argument I like, if a female convert to Judaism has children who abandon the religion are they still Jewish?”

          – They were never Jewish to begin with.

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  10. el Avatar
    el

    Cliff, here is a quote from an article on Belgium I gave (a link is above in this thread). Pay attention that it’s designed for 6-12 year olds (!). Are they taught about all conflicts in the world (Iran, North Corea, Syria, etc) and in such black & white fashion? Yes, it’s not about religion, nowadays it’s about nationality, as has been before too.

    The report described an extraordinary Belgian primer for teachers of “Holocaust Remembrance” which appeared on the official central Flanders educational website database. Endorsed and funded by the Education Ministry, the template, designed for teachers of 6-12 year olds, shamelessly promoted hatred of Israel, and anti-Semitism, employing the crudest forms of Holocaust inversion.

    It even reproduced a cartoon which had initially appeared in 2009 at the notorious Tehran Holocaust Denial conference, depicting a Jewish concentration camp inmate impaled on barbed wire in the form of a swastika. Entitled “Never Again,” it was accompanied by a caricature of an Arab in the same position titled “Over Again.” The message conveyed is crystal clear – Israelis, descendants of Jews who were murdered during the Holocaust, are treating the Arabs in the same manner as the Nazis treated their forebears.

    The caricature was produced by Carlos Latuff, a Brazilian of Lebanese origin, notorious for his creations of other obscene anti-Israeli caricatures bracketing Israelis with Nazis. One of his most outrageous recent works was an ugly distortion of the well-known poignant image of the young Jewish boy during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising with his caption: “I am a Palestinian.” He has also depicted the Israeli prime minister as a vampire with blood dripping from his fangs.

    There were other “lessons” on the Belgian website presenting Israelis as bloodthirsty murderers. One included a “play” in which children would adopt the role of Palestinians or Hamas supporters and represent the good guys, while those assuming the roles of Israelis would epitomize the evil tyrants.

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  11. el Avatar
    el

    Wait, following your logic, cliff, Holocaust wasn’t about “real” Jews either since many of the killed were non believers.

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    1. el Avatar
      el

      Forgot to add: when Israel says “6 million murdered Jews”, we don’t mean only believers. (Lest you say it was only definition of Hitler’s sick brain).

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  12. el Avatar
    el

    // “For the sake of the kind of inane theoretical argument I like, if a female convert to Judaism has children who abandon the religion are they still Jewish?”
    – They were never Jewish to begin with.

    According to Israeli and religious laws, they were Jewish, if she converted before their reaching a certain age (I think it’s 12 for girls and 13 for boys) and raised them religiously. If she converted and then gave birth, they’re definitely Jewish. Later, they are atheist Jews, like many others. 🙂

    Even more, theoretically, if you converted in good faith (not lying about it) and then stopped observing religion, you’re still considered Jewish, and rabanut will marry your child with another secular Jew.

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      “According to Israeli and religious laws, they were Jewish”

      – As I said, I believe in science. Science determines this with great ease, so what do I care if a bunch of religious men I never met decided something that contradicts science?

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      1. el Avatar
        el

        But during Jewish history some people did convert to Judaism, and when Jewish women were raped, children weren’t 100% Jewish. Also, Jews from different countries do look different to an extent because of mixed children during generations.

        The usual situation, when conversion would occur, is one Jewish partner and another not, or a person with some distant (more or less) roots. I think whether religious or no, if somebody decides to assimilate with Jews, s/he should be accepted as a Jew.

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