Clarissa&#039;s Blog

This may be a function of the ‘results oriented’ rather than process oriented education. We reward people for their pieces of paper at the end, not on whether or not they have truly ‘learned’ anything.

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bloggerclarissa

August 29, 2011

So true. And so sad at the same time.

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Diego

I am enrolled in an online Master’s program at a reputable bricks and mortar university and I find the classes a complete joke. I recently discovered that no matter the quality of the work, as long as all the boxes are checked, every student gets an A. Why should I work hard on my research? I have found students who are taking their last business management class who don’t know the difference between revenue and profit. For those unfamiliar with business jargon, revenue is all of your income. You then deduct your expenses to get your profit. Everyone understands this concept…expect for some students about to receive a business management degree from this program.

The “professors” primarily have their “PhDs” from Capella “University” and all of those are incompetent in their fields. I have only found one who was competent and his degree is from the University of Phoenix. I don’t know if his competency is due to the University of Phoenix or if it is due to the fact that he spent 35 years working in the field. My wife has been, and is currently, enrolled in online programs and some are better than others. A major problems appears to be that the good professors at bricks and mortar institutions don’t understand, and many don’t want to learn, how to operate in an online environment. A second problem is that the syllabi for most online courses are prepared by “educational corporations”, that don’t know much about the content of the courses.

My conclusions so far are 1)Capella University is a diploma mill and I would never put their name on a resume or CV and 2)for anything other than highly technical courses for professionals working in the field, online education in its current form sucks.

I learned my profession by what was essentially a modern day apprenticeship. I have seen “college educated” people in the field and they all have the technical education, but cannot correctly apply what they have learned. I suspect that the same is true for most fields. Unless you have years to practice (I think 5 years is minimum for almost every field)under the tutelage of an experienced professional, you will not understand how to do the job well. Hey, that sounds like a traditional PhD program doesn’t it?

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Shedding Khawatir

I actually think it is possible to design a quality online PhD program (which would of course include discussions with mentors and peers). It is just extremely difficult, extremely time-consuming, and extremely expensive, as it would definitely require much more than a few Powerpoints online. It is also something that most people would probably not prefer, and is probably not worth the expense and frustration. Just because something is typically done badly, doesn’t mean it can’t be done well. I have no idea what the quality of the Boise State program is, but I don’t think the idea itself is ludicrous.

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Patrick

August 29, 2011

Well said – but I think default skepticism is appropriate until proven otherwise.

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Spanish Prof

Here is another joke: a PhD in Leadership. With no dissertation requirement. No, I have no idea what it means, but since some states require superintendants in public schools district to have PhDs, it’s all the new rage.

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bloggerclarissa

August 29, 2011

You always say something that makes me laugh. 🙂 Thanks! This is terrifying in a really hilarious way.

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Diego

August 29, 2011

I guess I’m old fashioned, but I think of PhD is supposed to be a research degree. Yes, most researchers teach to pay the bills and to ensure a new generation of researchers, but it is still supposed to be a research degree. How does being a school superintendent qualify as research instead of practice? What happened to the good old EdD degree for school administrators, MBA for business executives and MPA for public agency administrators? I could see a PhD in Leadership, if it combined training in psychology and sociology with research in what makes an effective leader and a poor leader.

A resume for an administrative or executive job with that on it would go in my circular file immediately.

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1. Spanish Prof
  
  August 29, 2011
  
  Don’t look at me. I have no idea, but I guess it goes along with the trend that you need a Masters in Education to teach high school (instead of good knowledge of the subject). And what is worse, those Masters are taught by people who haven’t been in front of a high school classroom ever. I’m old fashioned too.
  
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  1. bloggerclarissa
    
    August 29, 2011
    
    We get these Masters students who have been teaching for a decade or two and now are forced to take classes with us. It is no fun to have a bunch of people in the classroom who have no desire to be there but have to for fear of being fired.
    
    This is really wrong, in my opinion.
    
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  2. Diego
    
    August 29, 2011
    
    BTW, Spanish Prof, every time at work when I click on your name to go to your website, I get a denial and warning that “teaching Spanish” is a sex site. Who knew just how risque your profession is? Not me. Maybe it is “out of bounds” because I left a comment on your site about Vidas Privadas as a tragedy instead of just a melodrama.
    
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    1. bloggerclarissa
      
      August 29, 2011
      
      This is a link to Spanish Prof’s great blog: http://spanishteachingissues.blogspot.com/
      
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    2. Spanish Prof
      
      August 29, 2011
      
      Wow, I never knew I was so riské… Maybe “teaching Spanish” has some hidden meaning such as “turning Japanese” (look for that in your spare time, I don’t want to get you fired)
      
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      1. bloggerclarissa
        
        August 29, 2011
        
        I must be a really good girl. 🙂 I didn’t know what this expression meant. 🙂 Leave it to an Argentinean to teach you sexually explicit stuff. 🙂
        
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        Spanish Prof
        
        August 29, 2011
        
        Actually, I learned it a month ago, after The Economist cover page story was titled “Turning Japanese”, but it referred to the economic problems of the US and Germany. Somebody sent a really funny letter to the Editor, so I had to look it up.
        
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        bloggerclarissa
        
        August 29, 2011
        
        No need for detailed explanations. 🙂 We know what sexy beasts you, the Argentineans, are. 🙂 I don’t remember when was the last time an English-speaking novel about Argentina came out that didn’t refer to Buenos Aires as “the sexy Buenos Aires.” 🙂
        
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        Diego
        
        August 29, 2011
        
        OMG! No wonder Mark Sanford fell for María Belén!
        
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        Spanish Prof
        
        August 29, 2011
        
        Now if only somebody could convince Rick Perry to take a trip to Buenos Aires… Although from what the Texans I know tell me, it’s not a “Maria Belen” what would do the trick.
        
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David Bellamy

I think it depends a lot on the field, but I cannot imagine a mathematics Ph. D. without a lot of face to face time with ones advisor. I also cannot imagine a Ph. D. in paleobotany, say, without at least a few months of field work digging up fossils. What exactly does online mean here? Do you do this kind of field work using a remote control robot, using technology similar to a CIA drone??

It really is offensive and cannot but make the degree meaningless.

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bloggerclarissa

August 29, 2011

When I was a grad student, I benefited greatly from hanging out in my profs offices, looking at their libraries, chatting with them about life. Walking around the library was also extremely important and inspiring. Spending time with other grad students, having coffee or drinks and debating literature and philosophy, gosh even just walking the hallways of the university – these were all absolutely invaluable experiences. A PhD diploma isn’t just a piece of paper attesting to how many courses you took. It’s a testimony to being part of a certain culture. You can’t get that from being online. You just simply can’t.

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1. David Gendron
  
  August 30, 2011
  
  Actually, you’re right. But some day, technological development will permit all of this online, even if some real human contact is always interesting.
  
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  1. bloggerclarissa
    
    August 30, 2011
    
    I’m afraid that the rich will still be getting real education while the not-so-rich will be passed on to these online diploma mills. 😦
    
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As usual, playing devil’s advocate here…

I actually gave some serious looking at an online degree, mostly because in music there just aren’t that many places to get doctorates of any kind, and Boston University (NOT a diploma mill, last time I checked) has online Music Ed Masters and PhD degrees. These are, as far as I can tell, geared to the needs of folks who are already working in the field but can’t take a few years off to go live somewhere else and get a degree, also a situation in which I found myself at the time. (As it turned out, I quit my job and will be eating ramen noodles for the next 3 years, that glorious staple of grad students. Hope my kids like it. 🙂

I don’t know the quality of Boston’s online degrees, but I did take one online course for my Master’s at another school–primarily brick-and-mortar, but branching out–and the prof really did work hard to make sure we all contributed AND did the work. Mini-papers due every week, mandatory discussion participation on a strict schedule, and ample final project with mandatory reading of and commenting on one anothers’ final projects. More writing than I’ve ever done for a single course. It was hard work, rigorously planned, and I learned a lot. That school has since started offering complete distance learning degrees, which involve two weeks onsite at the beginning and end of the degree, and the rest happens via various media; a friend of mine is in that program. I haven’t seen his classwork, but it’s a helluva lot more than a few power points.

Yeah, it’s not the ideal, and I’d miss that apprenticeship vibe too, but even so–my biggest couple of “mentor” profs are ones I have corresponded with primarily via phone and email anyway, at their preference, and the relationship has been a very apprentice-y one nonetheless.

And yes, I realize that as someone who doesn’t actually HAVE a PhD I should probably shut up…but there’s a bit of irony in assuming that people online can’t “get educated through discussions with their peers and mentors”…and doing it on this blog, immediately before a fairly interesting discussion among a bunch of peers and mentors right here:-). There’s a LOT of substantive relational stuff that can happen online, and I personally spoke up a lot more in my online course than I ever do IRL, because that’s just how I roll.

That’s not to say I think that’s what Boise will have. And bad online education is probably easier to achieve than bad traditional education. (Although I’ve had some pretty bad traditional education along the way…) When I listen to someone “defending” online education this way…well, let’s just say it doesn’t make me want to bookmark the site.

Hanging up my horns again. 🙂
J

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Diego

August 29, 2011

I think that online degrees for working professionals will be the primary post graduate educational resource sometime in the future. They make so much sense. The problem is that the rip-off artists have preceded the responsible educators in the field. This method of teaching will require re-writing a great deal of the pedagogical canon.

However, as Clarissa mentioned, conveying the culture of the institution is as critical as conveying the technical information. The environment and atmosphere of the institution impresses itself on how the student matures as an educated individual. Perhaps the most significant change necessary for online education to be successful will be the cultural change in students who are adapted to doing business in cyberspace as opposed to face to face. In a few years my grandson will think I was totally screwy for insisting that he look someone in the eye when talking with them and that he practices a firm handshake without causing pain.

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1. J.
  
  August 29, 2011
  
  Good point re the culture of the institution…I think you’re exactly right.
  
  And I love what you’re teaching your grandson, I’m trying to do the same with my kids. Those are important skills, whether everyone else thinks so or not.
  
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(Oh, and to clarify–the online degree offered by my old school is a Master’s only, and it’s a “professional” degree not designed to go on to a PhD…so it’s admittedly not as heavy-duty academic as what y’all are talking about…)

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But some day, only online learning (I don’t like the term “education” for this) will be possible.

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In this very case, I don’t know how they do their general doctoral exams.

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bloggerclarissa

August 30, 2011

Good point. 🙂

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1. David Gendron
  
  August 30, 2011
  
  If they’re any. (someday, this will be possible online, but now, I don’t see how)
  
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What’s the tuition fees for all these online programs?

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bloggerclarissa

August 30, 2011

I don’t think they are any cheaper than regular programs. PhD students in the US don’t pay anything and get a stipend to live on, while these online students obviously don’t get anything like that. It’s just a way to squeeze money out of people while offering them nothing instead.

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1. David Gendron
  
  August 30, 2011
  
  So a better diploma could be cheaper than an online diploma?
  
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  1. bloggerclarissa
    
    August 30, 2011
    
    My diploma at Yale was 100% free to me. 🙂 And I got all my living expenses paid for 5 years on top of that. So it is definitely much cheaper.
    
    The only reason schools are turning to online teaching is to make loads of money. Because you have to invest very little and can reap huge monetary benefits. 😦
    
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    1. David Gendron
      
      August 30, 2011
      
      THAT’S IT! YALE IS AN EVIL COMMUNIST UNIVERSITY…SO GEORGE W. BUSH IS A COMMUNIST! 😉
      
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      1. David Gendron
        
        August 30, 2011
        
        FREE UNIVERSITY STUDIES, THAT’S HORRIBLE!
        
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        David Gendron
        
        August 30, 2011
        
        😉
        
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      2. bloggerclarissa
        
        August 30, 2011
        
        They didn’t assign me a job after I graduated, so it isn’t communist. 🙂
        
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        David Gendron
        
        August 30, 2011
        
        Of course, I was sarcastic.
        
        In Québec, this tuition fee debate is utterly moronic.
        
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Spanish Prof

“PhD students in the US don’t pay anything and get a stipend to live on, while these online students obviously don’t get anything like that”

Not in all the disciplines, nor all the schools. You’d be surprised how little funding certain departments can give, and how many American students are willing to accept it. One of the advantages of being a foreigner is that you would never be put in that position, because you can’t get loans. But I know people who got offered acceptance at PhDs in Political Science without funding, a person who got a PhD in Anthropology from Columbia along with a $100,000 debt, or History students that get offered $9,000 a year stipend (as of 2007).

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“But I know people who got offered acceptance at PhDs in Political Science without funding, a person who got a PhD in Anthropology from Columbia along with a $100,000 debt, or History students that get offered $9,000 a year stipend (as of 2007).”

And I’m sure that these students are so better than the stupid Clarissa 😉 WHO ATTEND A TUITION-FREE FUCKING COMMUNIST UNIVERSITY LIKE YALE! 😉

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