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Meanwhile in Quebec

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If you read in French, see this article about the extremes to which helicoptering parents go in Quebec. Now they are refusing to send their little babies to CEGEPS where the tiny little tots (of 18 years of age and more) might be involved in student activism. A CEGEP is either a pre-university or a professional training program that people attend after graduating from high school.

The idea that at the age of 18 one can choose which CEGEP to attend (for the enormous fee of something like $200 per year) doesn’t seem to cross anyone’s mind.

46 responses to “Meanwhile in Quebec”

  1. David Gendron Avatar
    David Gendron

    Many students begin their CEGEP at 17 years old, but this changes nothing.

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    1. David Gendron Avatar
      David Gendron

      Cegep replaces the last high school year and the first college year in Québec.

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  2. Ol. Avatar
    Ol.

    Please lets give Sarah-Maude Lefebvre a Pullitzer… ParentS are against student activism, yet the journalist uses the point of view of one parent to prove her point.

    This parent do not need to worry. He can helicopter his precious kid to Marianopolis. Then McGill is the next logical step 🙂

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    1. David Gendron Avatar
      David Gendron

      Lefebvre is an ad hominem specialist.

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    2. bloggerclarissa Avatar
      bloggerclarissa

      Do you remember how in Seinfeld the protagonist hated his neighbor Newman and always pronounced his last name Noo-man, with the greatest disgust possible?

      This is how Montrealers pronounce Marianopolis. 🙂

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  3. valter07 Avatar
    valter07

    As far as I know, the number of applicants on the university level has been significantly reduced this year in Quebec. Some universities even had to extend the admissions period… Why do you think this is happening?.. Because economy is improving and every high school graduate can get a well-paying job? 🙂 🙂
    As tempting as it might be to ascribe the effect to parental influences, I would suggest that many students themselves do not want their studies affected by strikes and class blocades. (I personally know a lot of such students.) Students want to study at predictable times, work more intensively at predictable times during summers, graduate in time for the next step (university for CEGEP students; grad school for bachelors students), etc.
    Another issue that may be scaring potential students from Quebec universities (probably students from other provinces and local anglophones) is the political situation. People choose not to deal with the atmosphere created by PQ.

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    1. David Gendron Avatar
      David Gendron

      We talk about choosing a particular cegep, not the enrollment.

      “I would suggest that many students themselves do not want their studies affected by strikes and class blocades”

      I agree.

      “Another issue that may be scaring potential students from Quebec universities (probably students from other provinces and local anglophones) is the political situation. People choose not to deal with the atmosphere created by PQ.”

      Again, this immature separatist-bashing…

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      1. bloggerclarissa Avatar
        bloggerclarissa

        If people have the right to be separatists, then other people have the right to be anti-separatists. 🙂

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      2. David Gendron Avatar
        David Gendron

        Of course, but there’s no factual difference between now and the last regime.

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      3. valter07 Avatar
        valter07

        David, I do not see how describing the situation as it is means bashing anybody, separatists or otherwise. The difference between the previous regime and now is that there is some non-zero chance now that Bill 14 will be accepted, and the opportunities for anglophones in Quebec will be further limited. Also, I do not know how “real” you consider the change in the psychological atmosphere, but there is a change. Even if you ascribe 100% of this change to evil anglophone propaganda 🙂 and not to actions and opinions expressed by PQ, this change is visible to the outside observers, and may influence their choices.

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    2. bloggerclarissa Avatar
      bloggerclarissa

      “Students want to study at predictable times, work more intensively at predictable times during summers, graduate in time for the next step (university for CEGEP students; grad school for bachelors students), etc.”

      – If at 18 they care about that more than about student activism, that’s kind of sad. Do they also take Metamucil to stay “regular”? 🙂 🙂 And go to bed at 9 because “the best sleep you can get is before midnight”? 🙂 🙂

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      1. David Gendron Avatar
        David Gendron

        “If at 18 they care about that more than about student activism, that’s kind of sad.”

        But this is the sad reality. It’s not about bullying by student activists, this is about not caring at all about this.

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        1. bloggerclarissa Avatar
          bloggerclarissa

          Why are they not caring? Why is everybody just sitting there while the higher ed is being destroyed?

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      2. David Gendron Avatar
        David Gendron

        Because a diploma is a merchandize for them. And the government portrays student activists as “violent bullies” and that propaganda works.

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        1. bloggerclarissa Avatar
          bloggerclarissa

          A diploma should be worth something. And what is the value of a diploma that comes from a place where research has been destroyed?

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      3. valter07 Avatar
        valter07

        Well, as far as I can see in our predominantly immigrant university, many students just cannot afford the luxury of dabbling in activism. While the local students may be reasonably confident that they will get a job even if they are lousy students – because they are francophones, or have connections, or their parents have connections, etc, the immigrants have to prove themselves. Also, they cannot trust the locals to be treated equally, they have to be better than locals. And Metamucil has nothing to do with it. By the way, I thought it is not a psychotropic drug, I though it as something against heartburn… or a laxative…

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        1. bloggerclarissa Avatar
          bloggerclarissa

          “By the way, I thought it is not a psychotropic drug, I though it as something against heartburn… or a laxative…”

          – Yes, it’s a substance for elderly people who have problems with using the potty. 🙂

          ” While the local students may be reasonably confident that they will get a job even if they are lousy students – because they are francophones, or have connections, or their parents have connections, etc, the immigrants have to prove themselves.”

          – This is not an either / or thing. I was a union organizer in grad school.

          “Also, they cannot trust the locals to be treated equally, they have to be better than locals.”

          – That, of course, is true.

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      4. valter07 Avatar
        valter07

        And by the way, I do not see any activists doing anything in favor of research. Our activists are for free/low cost education. Period. And that is OK, as long as they do not infringe on the rights of other students to continue studying. But do not ascribe to them any enlightened views they do not actually espouse. One can even argue that they are those for whom education is merchandize, that they want to acquire by the lowest possible price and with smallest amount of effort.

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        1. bloggerclarissa Avatar
          bloggerclarissa

          “And by the way, I do not see any activists doing anything in favor of research. Our activists are for free/low cost education.”

          – I know! I’m beyond disappointed in their immaturity, short-sightedness and stupidity. Yes, they will pay the same. BUT FOR A LOWER QUALITY PRODUCT. How are their arithmetic skills?

          I’m still shocked.

          “One can even argue that they are those for whom education is merchandize, that they want to acquire by the lowest possible price and with smallest amount of effort.”

          – What do they want to acquire? Garbage? I’m disappointed in you, Montreal activists!!!

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      5. valter07 Avatar
        valter07

        I am also union activist… Seriously. 🙂 It is not only about if you do certain things, it is also about how to do them. Same things can be done with integrity, and appealing to the best in people, or they can be done pandering to the worst in people.

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        1. bloggerclarissa Avatar
          bloggerclarissa

          “Same things can be done with integrity, and appealing to the best in people, or they can be done pandering to the worst in people.”

          – You are telling me? I left my union precisely after it became a club for underachievers. 😦 😦

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      6. Ol. Avatar
        Ol.

        “And by the way, I do not see any activists doing anything in favor of research. Our activists are for free/low cost education.”

        Yes yes yes. It all about low costs and nothing else. Such a lack of scope… There is money in our university system but it is often poorly spent, money that could be used for research or hiring promising professors. I can provide you with many examples in my own academic field.

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    3. Ol. Avatar
      Ol.

      “Another issue that may be scaring potential students from Quebec universities (probably students from other provinces and local anglophones) is the political situation. People choose not to deal with the atmosphere created by PQ.”

      1) The strike was not created by the PQ. Rather, it lasted for more than 3 months because the PLC thought it would served them politically.
      2) People who for whichever reason “choose not to deal with the atmosphere created by PQ” letf the province circa 1976. Those who have decided to stay and those who are planning to live in Quebec are hopefully politically- and culturally-savvy human beings, and thus well aware of and ready to deal with the special political situation in Quebec.

      And Valter07’s post is not a sign of immature separatist-bashing because the PQ stopped being a separatist political party more than 15 years ago.

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      1. valter07 Avatar
        valter07

        Ol, I am talking about two groups of potential students, one of them being out-of province students.
        Also, I guess I told that to you once already… Quebec did not introduce iron curtain after 1976. Since then, because of migration, you’ve got new anglophones from all over Canada, as well as new migrants, who may be savvy enough human beings to learn French (as well as English), but who do not see much value in forced monolingualism. Just a simple example – an immigrant works in a library. Immigrant is fluent in French, English, Russian and one other Eastern-European language. The immigrant is willing to help clients in all those languages. However, according to new regulations, it is librarian’s job to “encourage” clients to speak French. Who is more savvy here?

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      2. Ol. Avatar
        Ol.

        “Just a simple example – an immigrant works in a library. Immigrant is fluent in French, English, Russian and one other Eastern-European language. The immigrant is willing to help clients in all those languages. However, according to new regulations, it is librarian’s job to “encourage” clients to speak French. Who is more savvy here?”

        I agree with you. I saw forced monolingualism in action when I worked in Montreal (both in French and English) and it is wrong. My point has always been that people should learn/know French to live and work in Quebec, as a common language.

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        1. bloggerclarissa Avatar
          bloggerclarissa

          Alternatively, you can let people choose if they want to learn the language and let them deal with the consequences. My mother has been living in Quebec for 15 years, she speaks no French or English. But she’s perfectly fine. And she causes no problems to anybody. So what’s the big deal? I wouldn’t want to live this way but she seems happy.

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      3. valter07 Avatar
        valter07

        Peace, then, Ol. 🙂
        I never opposed learning French per se. I oppose measures limiting the freedom of choice. (Does it mean that I am more consistent anarchist than David?? 🙂 )
        Let’s just be honest – some people feel that need to put other people down to feel better. There is equal percentage of those people in all nations. This is due to psychological problems, and has nothing to do with being francophone or anglophone. However, I have problem with the government giving those people a license to put other people down, under the guise of “encouraging use of French”.

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      4. Ol. Avatar
        Ol.

        Oh yes… hurray for freedom. People are attached to one language (or two, or more) and I am OK with that… but not knowing the language people use in your new country (after you are settled, that is) seems to me like an unexplainable self-imposed handicap.

        Hurray for freedom, sure, but unless we find a better way to ensure the good health of French in QC then I believe in linguistic laws.

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      5. valter07 Avatar
        valter07

        Ol, may I ask you for a bit of your time? Can you explain what exactly is threatening the good health of French language, going a little bit deeper than the standard “5 million francophones in a sea of 300 million anglophones” argument. It is not like someone is going to force all those 300 million to come to Quebec, while the francophones in turn will be deported all over North America, Soviet style. Most of those 300 million will never even visit Quebec.
        Is there any real danger that English will displace French from some important public sphere (important as in “necessary for normal functioning of the society”)? Why exactly are current laws not enough? I am genuinely fascinated especially by the paragraph preventing the francophones themselves from attending English schools… If every francophone is committed to good health of the French language, then why is this necessary? Why is bilingualism (and I mean real bilingualism, not “saying bilingualism, really meaning English only”) perceived as threatening by francophones? I am genuinely trying to understand to what extent it is about language per se, and to what extent it is about history? Or about the need to make society more homogeneous? And if so, is it the end goal, or is it the means to an end? To what end? What does this currently parallel English society represent to frencophones?

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      6. Ol. Avatar
        Ol.

        So many good questions Valter07. I will make an effort to write an equally good answer very soon.

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      7. Ol. Avatar
        Ol.

        OK…

        I do not think that current laws are not enough. I think that Bill 101 was an excellent and necessary idea in the 1970s, and still is. Because of that, I think that the idea of making post-sec education in French mandatory is ridiculous and downright wrong. I would not make linguistic laws more stringent that they actually are. French is the language of the majority of people in QC, and this is reflected in the public space. It was not before Bill 101. Thank you Bill 101.

        “I am genuinely fascinated especially by the paragraph preventing the francophones themselves from attending English schools… If every francophone is committed to good health of the French language, then why is this necessary? Why is bilingualism (and I mean real bilingualism, not “saying bilingualism, really meaning English only”) perceived as threatening by francophones?”

        They may be prevented (which is not true anymore anyways) because not everyone is committed to the good health of the French language, trust me. There is a double tradition among colonized francophones in QC of 1) defending the French language against the English Other (or a variant like defending Catholicism against Protestantism or other religions) and/or 2) having the impression of speaking the wrong language, of being ashamed of it, of feeling inferior because of it, or of having the impression of not speaking English well enough to be as successful as the [Anglophone] colonizer. How can we cope with this double legacy and this sort of colonial mind? How to embrace your French linguistic heritage while being told to “speak white”? Some people develop defense mechanisms, and it is quite normal. This has to do with the weight of history and it cannot be ignored nor can it be erased in one or two decades. A solution would be to transcend that colonial legacy by being self-assumed bilingual, and a lot Québécois (native-speakers of French, English, or other languages) took this way. I did, even if my English is far from being perfect (you see? I am self-apologetic about my poor language skills. Why is that!?!?). Real bilingualism, however, is never going to happen in Canada, and this is very important to understand the linguistic dynamic of this country. In the Canadian context bilingualism means that, in theory, you have to be ready to speak both French and English… but seriously… who are those bilingual individuals and where do they live? Is Canada really a bilingual country? As a native speaker of French, when I am asked to be bilingual in a Canadian context, what I am really asked is to speak English. I mean… I cross the border in Cornwall every week (30 minutes east of QC) and the Canadian CBP officers barely speak French. So yes indeed, saying ‘bilingualism’ in Canada really means English only.

        I think (and this is what I think) that if Quebec were an independent country the English language would be perceived as less of a threat because it would be clear in the eyes of all that Quebec is a country, a French-speaking country with hopefully many bilingual individuals. There will be less linguistic and political ambiguity in such a context. If Quebec were independent I would be the first to encourage more rigour in our English classes. But then, what would happen to the francohpone communities outside of Quebec?

        I am not satisfied with my answer, but I am confident that Clarissa will write another post that will bring our attention to the lingusitic peculiarities of Quebec. We will meet again virtually here!

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        1. bloggerclarissa Avatar
          bloggerclarissa

          Quebec is one of the topics that are guaranteed to attract many comments on a blog. Sometimes, you can just write “abortion,” ‘breast-feeding”, “Israel,” “Quebec”, and boom! everybody is interested. 🙂

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      8. Ol. Avatar
        Ol.

        Well. it is one of the very few topics about which you and I sort of disagree, so you will find me there for sure!

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      9. valter07 Avatar
        valter07

        Thank you, Ol.
        I understand why, except I do not agree that independence will make francophones more secure. And I am saying that not because I think ill of francophones in particular, but because I believe they are humans like everyone else. For instance – like the people of my home country. The experiences of my home country are particularly valuable, since the level of the problems is nearly identical with that of Quebec, and many solutions are similar as well – language laws, language inspectors, etc… So let’s see what the experiences of my country are teaching:

        Once Quebec gains independence, the francophones will not suddenly turn more benevolent towards the anglophones (and associated creatures like me, who meant no disrespect, but just came to QC via English-speaking country).

        English education will be destroyed. It will be treated as something existing not for the benefit of all people of QC, but only for the benefit of the anglophones, who are Other, not “us”. Destruction of English-language education will be justified by it being economically unreasonable to support two parallel educational systems, by the need to achieve greater social cohesion, by history/geography/civic studies curriculum being too Canadian and contrary to the QC values, and even by caring for increasing competitivenes of the anglophones on the francophone job market (“and why should we use taxpayer’s money educating those who will leave”).

        If PQ manages to pull it off, it will invent some reason to make at least the recent immigrants reapply for QC citizenship, and to pass additional French exams.

        The francophone public opinion leaders will constantly confuse learning French with supporting PQ agenda. (In many cases it will not be deliberate demagogy, it will be just a side-effect of self-identifying primarily through language.) So 20 years from now everyone will be genuinely surprised that the new generation of anglophones, despite attending French schools and speaking perfect French, still do not support the PQ agenda. (This actually is already happening, since QC has been in this half-independent state for quite a while by now) Since nobody would dare to publicly admit that the initial dream (of trying to build a monolingual state in a de-facto multi-lingual country) was unattainable, the failure to achieve unified mentality will be attributed to outside influences.

        Thus, the fear-mongering about the sea of 300 million anglophones will continue.

        Newly-formed and well-funded QC counterintelligence will harass anglophone education activists.

        Please do not take any of the above as particularly anti-Quebec or anti-francophone statements. I just believe that some Genies cannot be put back into bottle, and some historical processes cannot be fully reveres, as unjust as it may feel, given the history. As I used to say on the forums of my own country – if you throw a brick vertically up, it will land on your head eventually, regardless of what you are singing in the process – local anthem, Soviet anthem, or “Deutchland ueber alles”…

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  4. David Gendron Avatar
    David Gendron

    Is Boston living a small-scale 9/11 right now?

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    1. David Gendron Avatar
      David Gendron

      http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/explosions-boston-marathon-finish-line-18960342#.UWxVdsqyLUE

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    2. David Gendron Avatar
      David Gendron

      I thought that killing lists, genocides and torture would prevent against this.

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  5. el Avatar
    el

    Just returned from the concert of Israel’s 65th Independence Day, visited Israeli news site and saw:

    Two Dead, 23 Injured in Boston Marathon Explosions

    Boston police said two were killed and 23 injured after two explosions went off near the finish line of the Boston Marathon on Monday as runners completed the race and thousands of people cheered them on.

    The explosions occurred as thousands of runners finished the 117th running of the Boston Marathon, with crowds watching and cheering at the finish.
    http://www.cnbc.com/id/100643285

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  6. valter07 Avatar
    valter07

    Oh, sh**, that is bad… Sorry for continuing that QC discussion.

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    1. bloggerclarissa Avatar
      bloggerclarissa

      No, that’s OK, we all love Quebec here. 🙂

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  7. David Gendron Avatar
    David Gendron

    The actual version of the Bill 14 has no chance at all to pass in this actual minority government.

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  8. David Gendron Avatar
    David Gendron

    The state should butt out of schools, but since we have state schools in Québec, I think only French schools should be subsidized. Private schools in any languages should be permitted. And I’m against the “ads” part of the bill 101.

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  9. David Gendron Avatar
    David Gendron

    The lack of scope and the destroying of research were initiated by who?

    “they want to acquire by the lowest possible price and with smallest amount of effort.”

    They want to lower price for poor excellent students instead making pay rich bad students, like the government wants.

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    1. David Gendron Avatar
      David Gendron

      Don’t forget that the worst anti-student fucktards belong to non-humanities academia who are the first to battle against humanities’ research.

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    2. valter07 Avatar
      valter07

      —The lack of scope and the destroying of research were initiated by who?

      Unfortunately, this lack of scope is one of the few things in common for all political parties, and both federal and provincial alike…

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      1. David Gendron Avatar
        David Gendron

        Exactly, so this is not only a student union’s matter.

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