Our discussion about the “discriminated” male WASPS continues. One colleague stated that
Research shows that Whites, as a group, do feel discriminated against
which is something that started in the 1980s.
Is that true? Because that sounds very insane. I mean, who would be discriminating against them? Other white people? Racial minorities?
This also drives me bananas. Yes. There are white people who feel “discriminated” against. It mostly goes back to affirmative action. Since there are no aa programs dedicated to white people, some whites feel that somehow they are discriminated against in American society. I find it to be an incredibly unempathetic and ignorant world view.
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Many years ago I worked in an office that disbursed AA scholarship checks to grad students and it certainly didn’t work as advertised. The black recipients were mostly middle class and there were some doubtful cases too: a US born Asian American and a “native american” who looked whiter than Clarissa.
AA also had/has some unintended consequences, like students getting accepted to schools that are out of their academic league and then floundering (and black faculty being so intensively hunted after that their research suffered).
I still believe in some of the ideas of AA but think it should be more class and wealth based than race based.
But also, human beings respond to incentives – if you make victimization and disadvantage the moral coin of the realm then don’t be surprised if everyone wants to join in.
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“[I] worked in an office that disbursed AA scholarship checks to grad students and it certainly didn’t work as advertised. The black recipients were mostly middle class ”
Why is this an issue? The fact remains that black Americans are woefully underrepresented in the middle and upper classes. This under-representation is largely due to long and brutal history of institutionalized racism. The United Stated had overtly racists laws until the 1960’s–which wasn’t very long ago. We can’t expect an oppressed people to suddenly “catch up” in 50 years or so. So affirmative action programs are aimed at increasing black participation in locations of power: the university, careers that have been traditionally dominated by whites etc etc.
So in the beginning middle class blacks might be the beneficiaries of affirmative action (and historically we are at the very beginning of AA). In time, once Black participation in these locations of power resembles their demographics, attention can be shifted to minorities in the lower classes. Saying AA shouldn’t be race based is completely ignoring the very real racial injustices that are still intertwined in the American socio-political system.
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There were kids in my high school class who had one Native American and one White parent. One sibling looked Native American, the other two looked white. Another sibling group in my high school was 1/4 Native American; all three kids were redheads with pale skin and freckles.
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The liberal PC police, hollywood and the media (read: jews) who’ve made it their mission to destroy the moral fabric of this great country, Barack HUSSEIN Obama and the New World Order, uppity blacks who don’t know their place, etc.
Boogeymen aren’t hard to invent if you’re that intent upon finding them. Oh my god, the TYRANNY, I can’t take it anymore!
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Is that true? Because that sounds very insane. I mean, who would be discriminating against them? Other white people? Racial minorities?(Clarissa)
The government(Canada). For a white male trying to get a job in policing, firefighting and several other areas is darn near impossible right now. Trust me, when they look at the application they know exactly the color of your skin before they hire.
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“The government(Canada). For a white male trying to get a job in policing, firefighting and several other areas is darn near impossible right now. Trust me, when they look at the application they know exactly the color of your skin before they hire.”
Oh please. You mean to say that the police and firefighters in Canada are largely nonwhites? White men complain about the same thing here in the US; and you know what? White men still remain the single largest demographic in both the police and firefighting forces. I feel fairly confident that if were to consult the demographics on the Canadian police and firefighters, it would reveal something similar. White men just have to share a bit now.
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Given that the Canadian government is overwhelmingly white, the whole concept becomes very confusing. White people are discriminating against other white people. . . for what reason exactly?
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When you call it “white people discriminating whites” this indeed sounds ridiculous. It is not “white people discriminating whites”, it is government engaging in projects much respected Evelina Anville is advocating above – speeding up the process of minority groups “catching up”.
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But the government consists of people. And those people overwhelmingly belong to one race on North America.
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White men just have to share a bit now.(Evelina)
Its not about trying to make reparations for the past. Equality is about hiring the best person for the job, not trying to even it along racial and gender lines. If the hiring process starts to discriminate against the hiring of white males because there are more white males already there, well, that is both racist and sexist. The best person should get the job. That may not have happened in the past but two wrongs don’t make it right.
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I am wondering which team put a “like” to my previous comment?.. 🙂
As Evelina Anville said, white people have to share. Meaning the probability of white person getting a job has been reduced. Being upset by one’s reduced job prospects does not necessarily exclude having empathy towards Blacks (or other minorities) in general. And having some empathy also for a White who happens to be in this situation is normal.
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“Meaning the probability of white person getting a job has been reduced. ”
– I have never ever ever heard from my sister (who is a professional recruiter) of anybody rejecting white employees. But I have heard a lot about rejecting non-white employees.
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But the government consists of people. And those people overwhelmingly belong to one race on North America.(Clarissa)
And the collective guilt caused by the actions of their ancestors makes them do some pretty strange shit.
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Come on, have you actually seen Stephen Harper? Collective guilt, that guy? Lets not be ridiculous here. They are a party of over entitled overfed pricks who are congenitally incapable of feeling any guilt for anything.
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Clarissa
Stephen Harper pretty much has nothing to do with the hiring and firing in the vast majority of jobs. And don’t kid yourself, just because the conservatives are the elected government doesn’t mean there is not a shit load of guilty bleeding heart liberals there to. 😉
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But something is driving them. If not guilt, then what, in your opinion? Desire for social justice understood as proportional representation of all groups? Harper? Their predominantly white voters?
Because obviously some AA is happening
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“But something is driving them.”
– Whom? This alleged discrimination against white policemen is only happening in Titfortat’s imagination. There is really harsh discrimination against non-white job candidates in private companies even in the ultra-progressive Montreal. As well as discrimination against immigrants with funny last names.
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But it is not mutually exclusive. We have discrimination in some places and affirmative action in others. As long as we look only at statistics of how this or that group is represented here or there, and how discrimination compensates for AA and AA compensates for discrimination,, we are ignoring the stories of particular people, who, individually, perceive discrimination. And I do not see why empathy towards representatives of one group should preclude empathy towards representatives of another. I have empathy for both.
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I’m just not seeing what there is to be empathetic about in the case of white people in North America. If some of them choose to perceive things that are not there, the only thing to feel empathy for is their tenuous psychological state.
As for AA, never saw it while living in Canada and here in the US it is limited to a few black students getting accepted to our university on a probationary basis in spite of having lower SAT scores than required. This in now way impacts any white students, so I don;t know what they could be upset about.
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@Valter
Common theme, disagree with Clarissa and its either your an idiot, delusional or some other expletive. I will just have to tell my client who is an officer in the FD that he was wrong about the hiring practices. They obviously don’t favor women and minorities over white males presently. Afterall, Clarissa says so, its all my imagination. Lmfao.
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“I will just have to tell my client who is an officer in the FD that he was wrong about the hiring practices. They obviously don’t favor women and minorities over white males presently. ”
– Somebody told your client that he was not being hired because of his race and gender?
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And “ultra-progressive Montreal” is just something Montrealers (and those with nostalgia 🙂 like to believe. In reality, Toronto is much friendlier to “people with funny last names”.
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I don’t know, my childhood friend from Ukraine changed her last name to sound less Ukrainian after 10 years in Toronto.
Besides, just imagine what goes on in Manitoba and Saskatchewan if Montreal is that way.
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As well as discrimination against immigrants with funny last names.(Clarissa)
That is because your typical Ultra-progressive Quebecois doesn’t really like foreigners all that much. Nor anglos, regardless if their families have been Quebecors for 6 or more generations
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@Clarissa
My client is one of the ones who does the hiring. The words come from his mouth, not mine. My nephew is the one who has been waiting 3 yrs to get hired. Take a wild guess what his color and gender are.
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“My client is one of the ones who does the hiring. The words come from his mouth, not mine.”
– Which words? Can you finally transmit what you are trying to say? Because nobody will be guessing anything here. Does he say that somebody makes him avoid hiring people because of their race and gender? Who? How is that order worded? Does he get it in writing? What is the penalty for not following the order?
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Do you honestly think someone would be foolish enough to put that in writing. And as far as punishment goes, I have no idea how they do that. All I can go by are the words he says. They do presently try to fit more women and minorities in place over white males regardless of skill or competency.
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So all you can tell us is that your client for some unspecified reason chooses to act in this way. How is that evidence of institutionalized discrimination if a single bigot makes weird choices and you, in spite of all your bluster, seem completely supportive of his personal choice to discriminate?
“They do presently try to fit more women and minorities in place over white males regardless of skill or competency.”
– How did that single bigot turn into “they” within a short comment. I wonder?
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You know, you say this, but I’ve lived in Canada for almost thirty years and I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a non-white police officer. Maybe you can’t get hored for some other reason. Just saying.
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Political correctness.
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“and a “native american” who looked whiter than Clarissa.”
Oh pu-lease. I am a light-skinned Native, and people who think that light-skinned Natives and Métis people are somehow not Native enough have to open up a history book. Preferably one that’s not written by fools like Tom Flanagan. There are a lot of white-passing Natives out there, and a good portion of it, surprise, surprise, is directly related to there being destructive assimilation policies set up by white people in the United States and Canada, some of which continue to this day.
What makes a person Native isn’t their looks, or their blood quantum, it’s their acceptance by their community and taking ownership of their culture and identity.
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I know that many ‘real’ native americans may look partly or mostly white (or black) but this seemed like something different.
I don’t want to get too specific for confidentiality reasons, but the ‘tribe’ the person belonged to seemed a little dubious, as in a recently cobbled together group of some ancestory claims with no discernible linguistic,cultural or ceremonial links to the past. They seemed like mostly white people who could trace an ancestor to one of a set of 19th century rolls and were trying to cash in on that fact. As far as i can tell the group is not federally recognized (but recognized enough at the state level at the time that members could qualify for minority status). I have no idea if members of this group still qualify.
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“I will just have to tell my client who is an officer in the FD that he was wrong about the hiring practices. They obviously don’t favor women and minorities over white males presently”
Oh good grief. Before white men constituted 100% of those serving as police officers and fire fighters. Now, laws have been enacted to make sure that the number is no longer 100%. (But I would guess the percentage hovers around 75% if not higher.) When white men sniffle because they can no longer occupy 100% of these jobs, my sympathy and patience run dry.
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@Evelina
Nope, its when young white males who had no participation in any discrimination but have to suffer the consequences of those actions and in turn they suffer discrimination based on their gender and race. Pretty shitty if you ask me. They don’t need your sympathy, they just need to see some of your “treat people equally” pretense put into practice. You talk a good game but turns out you aint much different from the ones you rail against.
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So you don’t think it’s problematic for white men to constitute 100% of police officers and fire fighters? Because that was literally the statistic before affirmative action started making young white males “suffer.”
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They don’t anymore. And what you are suggesting regardless of intention is sexist and racist. To deny a applicant based on their gender or race is exactly that. And that is EXACTLY what happens today. More often than you obviously care to admit.
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” To deny a applicant based on their gender or race is exactly that. And that is EXACTLY what happens today.”
– You have offered not a shred of proof that this happens to white men. Just some vague hints about clients and nephews.
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I don’t need you to believe me. Take it as you wish and believe what you want.
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“I don’t need you to believe me. Take it as you wish and believe what you want.”
– Translation: “I just wasted everybody’s time by yakking foolishly for an hour without even being capable of explaining where I’m getting these weird ideas.”
OK, then.
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“They [meaning white men constituting 100% of police officers and fire fighters] don’t anymore.”
Right. And WHY aren’t white men exclusively serving as police officer and fire fighters? Say it with me…..because of affirmative action. And yes: sometimes fairly draconian measures have been put in place in order to make sure that this shift happened. For instance , I know that in the American deep south, there are quotas and strict laws in place expressly stipulating that white men by law can NOT constitute 100% of the police department. And of course, white men plaintively demand that quotas be thrown out. (As if a 100% white male police department has somehow been determined because of the impressive skills of white men…)
And even with these AA measures in place, white men CONTINUE to make up the vast majority of police officers and fire fighters. Until that fact radically changes, I’m not sure how the white men can whine about discrimination policies.
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Why does that need to change? The best person for the job should get the job, and if that’s a White man, then so be it.
PS: Why doesn’t the NBA need to be changed? After all, it’s mostly Black men and it’s not like they’re superior to White or any other race of men.
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What a strange comment. How can being white make one better at firefighting?
I started the thread to ridicule the completely deluded people who think that WASPS are victims of discrimination in this country only to discover that such people are quite numerous. I should not be surprised given how whiny and drama queenish this demographic is.
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Maybe white men just have better qualifications or maybe more white men are interested in firefighting than black men. There are a series of tests and qualifications that they must pass.
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Or maybe they have worse qualifications and whine so much that nobody wants them. What is the value of all these unsubstantiated assumptions other than to feed the drama queenishness of the defenders of this weird theory?
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Btw, I’m not a WASP; I’m an Eastern European immigrant to Canada, but I do understand where WASPs are coming from as I see numerous examples of this bias (e.g. White men need not apply).
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There are no examples and there is no bias. Nobody in this thread has offered anything but their fantasies.
And if you don’t see how horribly racist North American countries are, maybe you should browse less and get out more.
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How do you figure it’s racism? Maybe Black men don’t get hired because they’re whiny; it’s not like the police force is refusing to hire them.
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For the especially gifted who think they can’t get hired because of their race, I can repeat: what is the value of all these unsubstantiated assumptions?
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Here’s a better analogy, why not let women play in the NBA. Im sure there are a few that are more physically capable than the men on the court. Nope, aint gonna happen. Now, lets see how many women are more physically capable than the men when it comes to firefighting. I have a sneaky suspicion about as many that play in the NBA. Though that doesn’t prevent the fire departments from hiring the most capable of applicants, right? I don’t think we need a scholarly report from a Spanish professor to show us the reality of what happens in the real world. Quotas, we have to be fair and equal minded afterall.
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After the big fail of your story about the bigoted client whom you support, I don’t think it makes much sense for you to chirp on this subject.
Try to put your money where your mouth is: tell us the name and the rank of the bigoted client of yours and share the story of his engagement in discriminatory practices. This will be real activism. Everything else is mindless blabbing.
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Come on Clarissa, I actually enjoy sharing some mindless babble with you on a Saturday morning. It goes great with the coffee and newspaper. 🙂
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So you enjoy the discrimination you have been ranting against for two days? Just as I thought. People like you and your client invent these ridiculous stories and then sit there feeling massively sorry for yourselves.
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Talking were just talking. Not everyone was made to be an activist. Just like not everyone was made to be a Spanish Professor.
“una cerveza por favor”. 😉
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Sexist (racist) discrimination in favor of women (Blacks) are a product of the Patriarchy (Racism) that considers women (Blacks) as inferiors, not a feminist (anti-racist) policy.
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Sexist (racist) discrimination in favor of women (Blacks) is a product of the Patriarchy (Racism) that considers women (Blacks) as inferiors, not a feminist (anti-racist) policy.
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What a disgusting jerk! http://themattwalshblog.com/2013/08/12/you-cant-rage-against-the-machine-that-feeds-you/
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Oh God. This is the worst shit I’ve read in a long time. He must be crazy to fantasize about surfer dudes eating lobster on food stamps.
Or was he trying to be funny?
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He shouldn’t be raging against any aspect of life himself… after all he has been fed. Who knows what elements of historical circumstance went into his feeding?
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He’s not fantasizing, he’s reacting to this (about a surfer dude who does eat lobster on food stamps). I have no comment on the veractiy of the video, but it has gotten a lot of attention.
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Here are some examples of discrimination against whites (particularly White men):
http://news. nationalpost.com/2013/04/29/cbc-no-caucasian/
http://www. briancraigshow.com/2013/06/white-men-need-not-apply.html
http://www. amren.com/news/2013/06/whites-need-not-apply-at-d-c-labor-board/
http://www. thinkadvisor.com/2013/05/07/middle-age-white-guys-need-not-apply-aigs-advisor
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None of these links offer anything but boring gossip and silly rumors. Thanks for wasting my time with this.
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How are these “boring gossip and silly rumours”?
1. A casting call where one of the selection criteria was to be a PoC
2. North Carolina looking for a county manager and the Black female commission says that the new manager must not be a White male.
3. District of Colombia not wanting to hire White men
4. AIG not hiring white men
These are real facts, not “boring gossip and silly rumors”.
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If you can’t see the difference between rumors and evidence, might that be the reason you have difficulties being hired? I can cook up a hundred of similar links saying you are a turtle who speaks 200 languages. Will you believe that too just because it appeared online in a “somebody said something” format?
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These are not rumors; these are the companies that are doing the hiring saying that they don’t want to hire white men. How is this not evidence?
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“These are not rumors; these are the companies that are doing the hiring saying that they don’t want to hire white men. How is this not evidence?”
– Say you were doing research on the subject of discrimination. Would you use these links as evidence for your scholarly article? Also, do you think these links are more reliable or less reliable than, say, Wikipedia?
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Well, if I would be writing a scholarly article on the topic of discrimination against whites, I would quote academic articles as proof. However, what academics actually research this topic? None, because doing so would be racist and politically incorrect, everyone knows that White people are not discriminated against *rolls eyes*
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“However, what academics actually research this topic?”
– You can’t research what isn’t there. But thank you for recognizing that these links you provided are useless.
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I support private organizations that do that kind of “positive” discrimination. I’m against when the State uses its violence to do the same thing.
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I support private organizations when they do that kind of “positive” discrimination. I’m against when the State uses its violence to do the same thing.
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AA is not discrimination. I explained how it works at the beginning of the thread. It gives a greater inclusion to one group but in no way excludes the other groups. We have more black students because of it now but this in no way hurts the chances of white students to be admitted.
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@ Marcie “Why does that need to change? [In reference to 100% white police forces] The best person for the job should get the job, and if that’s a White man, then so be it.”
You don’t see an issue with having a 100% police department in the deep South? Honestly? And you honestly think that the reason white men dominated the police force was because of some sort of superior skill set? And you don’t think that the disproportionate amount of black men arrested and the hyper representation of white men in the police force are related at all?
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ETA: that should say “100% WHITE police department in the deep South?”
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One thing I appreciate about Evelina is that she pretty much acknowledges that there are some policies that practice this type of behavior. Being for the greater good she has no problem looking past the inherent sexism and racism. At least her eyes are open. 😉
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“One thing I appreciate about Evelina is that she pretty much acknowledges that there are some policies that practice this type of behavior. Being for the greater good she has no problem looking past the inherent sexism and racism.”
While I appreciate the compliment, my answer is huh? I don’t think there is any racism towards whites. Please point to one location of power that white people (more specifically white men ) do not occupy and maybe I will change my opinion. Obama notwithstanding, white men occupy the majority of positions in politics; white men make more money than any other single demographic; white men make up the majority of the police force; white men are the majority of CEO’s; white men are the majority of university presidents; white people make up the majority of university professors (in this realm, the gender gap has closed); white people are the jaoirty of lawyers and bankers etc etc.
Honestly, in what position of power or public authority are white men (or white people) outnumbered? From reading this thread, all I’m getting is the impression that people are upset that white people no longer occupy 100% of these positions.
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Is it just me, or are there any others who see this as a very weird thread?
Evelina Anville insists that AA exists, that it is a good thing, and we should have more of it. Titfortat insists that AA exists and that it is a bad thing. Clarissa insists that AA is not applied, but confronts only the people who say AA is bad, repeatedly demands from them the proof that AA is ever applied and dismisses suggested proof as gossip. Why doesn’t Clarissa demand the proof that AA is applied from Evelina Anville? 🙂 Why what Evelina Anville says anyway is not sufficient proof for Clarissa?
On the other hand, Titfortat simultaneously claims that AA is,a widespread official, government-backed policy, and pretends that someone will get in trouble for openly admitting that one is following a widespread, official government policy, of which, according to Evelina Anville, we should have more.
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@Valter
Perfect, lmao. I think we should take you out for a pint in good ole Montreal. 🙂
By the way, I don’t think its official. Though there are areas in the government where it is definitely applied. 😉
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“Clarissa insists that AA is not applied”
– ??? I said that we have AA practices at my own university at the very beginning of this thread. I also blogged about these practices extensively in the past: https://clarissasblog.com/2011/09/12/affirmative-action-part-i/
How can I deny they exist after arguing they do exist for years?
I don’t dispute what Evelina has to say because she is a reasonable and intelligent person who knows what she is talking about. Titfortat, on the other hand, always makes silly and unsubstantiated claims. I’ve been trying to get him to explain what he means but, as you can see, it has all been useless.
“Why doesn’t Clarissa demand the proof that AA is applied from Evelina Anville? 🙂 Why what Evelina Anville says anyway is not sufficient proof for Clarissa?”
– I don’t need proof that today is Saturday. 🙂 I need proof that in the specific case that Titfortat has been blabbing about stupidly for two days there has, indeed, been some institutional discrimination or if he is simply lying and inventing things.
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Clarissa, on this issue, the situation is different in Québec.
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My sister’s company in Quebec places people in jobs every day. And she tells me about massive and constant discrimination against non-white people. Massive, constant, and blatant. I have no reason to disbelieve her.
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Massive, constant, and blatant. I have no reason to disbelieve her.(Clarissa)
Ok, lets hold her to your standard. Prove it, where are the links? Mind you, she might have a point considering all those Ultra Progressive Montrealers you like to wax on about. 😉
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If you tried to keep track, you’d know that I don’t ask anybody for any links. To the contrary, I keep asking people to stop wasting my time with these useless link encyclopedias they like to bring here.
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scholarly links. 😉
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In the private sector, she’s right. In the public sector, it depends of the presence or the absence of the Professionnal Corporations in the field.
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