Sign up for a free recipe e-book →

Clarissa's Blog

Civil War

Published by

Clarissa

on

A question on the quiz is, “Who won the Spanish Civil War?”

As the students write, I walk around the classroom and spot that one of them answers, “The United States.”

“Think about it,” I say quietly. “It’s a CIVIL war. What does that tell us? Who fights in civil wars?”

“Oh gosh, of course!” the student exclaims. “Silly me!”

She crosses out her answer and writes, “Cuba.”

As you know, the Civil War is my topic. Can you imagine how many times I spoke about it? How passionately? In how much depth? I’d interrupt my discussions of medieval poetry to talk about the Civil War because I’m so obsessed. (And if anybody can figure out how I connected the two gets extra points on this blog).

And in case you think the student didn’t understand my lectures in Spanish, she is a native speaker. And this is a high-level course for Spanish majors.

69 responses to “Civil War”

  1. danmillerinpanama Avatar
    danmillerinpanama

    As you know, the Civil War is my topic.

    Mine too, assuming that the reference is to “the” U.S. Civil War, the one with which I am most familiar. An article I wrote about the U.S. Constitution and the Civil war back in December of 2011 has had 42,650 “hits” thus far (far more than any other at my blog) and the number continues to grow.

    The genesis of the article was a piece written by Cokie Roberts in the contexts of Arizona’s then new immigration law and ObamaCare, that we need to ignore parts of the Constitution to save the rest.

    It’s hard to imagine what would happen politically if the Supreme Court sided with some states against Congress. The already severely frayed fabric of government would certainly be further torn apart. It’s far better to leave the health care debate in the arena of electoral politics — and for the losers to accept defeat. That’s the essence of democracy.

    I don’t think so. Nor is it the essence of our Constitutional Republic.

    My thesis was that emasculating the Constitution, even for a good cause or because “we can’t wait,” is a bad way to preserve the Constitution and the nation. Circumstances where there is no Constitution are likely different. We had one in 1861 and we have one now, rather frayed around the edges and often ignored, but it still exists.

    As the United States trend more toward the model of the European Union, we should be wary of the consequences.

    Like

    Reply
    1. danmillerinpanama Avatar
      danmillerinpanama

      My HTML goof: the blockquote should end with “I don’t think so. Nor is it the essence of our Constitutional Republic.”

      Like

      Reply
  2. twicerandomly Avatar
    twicerandomly

    This is very funny and also kind of sad. So if it’s not your teaching, and not her comprehension, what does that leave? How does someone manage to be that clueless in an upper level college course? Is this an automatic American reaction – if there’s a war, we must have won it? Is this a failure of the (local?) high school?

    Like

    Reply
  3. sarahjpearce Avatar
    sarahjpearce

    “(And if anybody can figure out how I connected the two gets extra points on this blog).”
    Okay, I’ll bite: Through FGL’s Divan del Tamarit?

    Like

    Reply
    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      Wow, I surely have phenomenally brilliant readers. You got it on the first try!!!

      Like

      Reply
      1. sarahjpearce Avatar
        sarahjpearce

        To be fair, as a medievalist that’s how I do it.

        Like

        Reply
        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          You totally rock. 🙂

          Like

          Reply
  4. el Avatar
    el

    I almost haven’t studied it at Israeli school. Only remember one famous painting in the textbook on the topic, and that fascists won it? No idea what happened to Spain in WW2 and later, how they deal now with the heritage, etc. Wanted to ask whether you want to write about it here, but probably other readers of your blog know more than me?

    Like

    Reply
    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      Does anybody else want my rendition of the Spanish Civil war? Because I’d love to do it.

      Like

      Reply
      1. Clarissa Avatar
        Clarissa

        “o idea what happened to Spain in WW2 and later, how they deal now with the heritage, etc. ”

        – This is precisely what my research is about. Fascinating stuff. Truly fascinating.

        Like

        Reply
      2. Stille (@aperfectbalance) Avatar
        Stille (@aperfectbalance)

        Count me in.

        Like

        Reply
      3. Kathleen Avatar
        Kathleen

        Yes, I would like this.

        Like

        Reply
      4. el Avatar
        el

        // Does anybody else want my rendition of the Spanish Civil war?

        Already 3 people (Stille, Kathleen and me) are interested.

        // “o idea what happened to Spain in WW2 and later, how they deal now with the heritage, etc. ”
        – This is precisely what my research is about

        I don’t understand one thing. Is your research about literature or about history? Or do you research how Spanish lit has been dealing with their history?

        Like

        Reply
        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          Right now I’m studying novels (fiction) that discuss the Spanish Civil War in order to resolve the current economic crisis. I know it sounds a bit convoluted at first, but it’s not that weird at all. The characters in these novels believe that without addressing the unresolved historical past, it will not be possible to stop replicating its mistakes and move into the future. The discussion of the Spanish Civil War is an enormous, huge, raging issue in Spain that provokes great passions. Eminent scholars begin to heap insults on each other in the pages of academic journals saying things that you wouldn’t even expect from an online troll. It’s still a very painful, raw issue.

          Like

          Reply
  5. el Avatar
    el

    You remember you asked me what I had been afraid of at the beach. Today I read in Israeli newspaper and found a great article online in English:

    There is a clear trend of Arab men sexually assaulting Jewish girls and women as a form of anti-Israel terrorism, attorney Roni Sadovnik said Wednesday, speaking to Arutz Sheva.
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166968#.U1pXwtp_tPk

    The following case isn’t mentioned in the above article, but is in Hebrew newspaper:

    The Jerusalem District Court on Wednesday, sentenced 37-year-old Anwar Ahdush of the Palestinian village of Tzurif, to two consecutive life terms and an additional 17 years, for the rape and murder of eight-year-old Lipaz Himi and the murder of David Ben-Hemo in 2006.
    […]
    throughout the course of the case, the State had no indication suggesting Ahdush was acting out of nationalist motives.

    The Hebrew newspaper has reported today that since Ahdush’s arrest, his family has been getting 4000 shekels each month from Fatah, to which Ahdush belonged. In addition, during his 1st police investigation, he said that he has killed twice as “a revenge for the suffering of Palestinian mothers,” and was planning to kill a female soldier and to kidnap a bus of school children (to kill) as next steps.

    Still not nationalist motives?

    Like

    Reply
    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      OK, this is a little beyond what I can understand. This is a rapist and a murderer. Who cares what silly excuse he invented to justify his crimes in his own eyes? Would he be any less scary if he said he raped because he felt like it?

      Like

      Reply
      1. el Avatar
        el

        Clarissa, Middle East Conflict is a prolonged state of permanent war(-lite).

        It’s not silly excuse, unless you want to claim rape isn’t used as a weapon of war, but is always a crime against individual only. It’s not one case, there have been numerous similar cases. They don’t hide attacking Jewish girls and women for being Jews and/or settlers. What must they do to get you to believe them? Stand on their heads?

        It’s not punishing innocent relatives either. For instance, here is a story I read a while ago: a woman’s son (Israeli Arab) commits a terrorist act and is jailed. This woman gets help from Palestinian authority and gives interviews to Arab radio about how proud of her son she is. What next? Is she an innocent relative, who should continue getting all rights like me (f.e. payments from social security)? Would USA suffer that? I am sure not!

        Families get payments because their member/s killed a few Jews. Why should I pay their social security and else? If they are enemies, let them live elsewhere.

        Like

        Reply
        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          “They don’t hide attacking Jewish girls and women for being Jews and/or settlers. What must they do to get you to believe them? Stand on their heads?”

          – Believe who about what? I’m saying that rape is a horrifying crime and the excuses rapists do or do not attach to their crimes are unimportant. They don’t make one rape better or more or less excusable than the other. Would there be any difference if these same rapists said they raped women because they are red-headed? I’m sure it’s not what you are saying but this is what I’m hearing.

          “Is she an innocent relative, who should continue getting all rights like me (f.e. payments from social security)? Would USA suffer that? I am sure not!”

          – I watch many criminal justice documentaries, and there are always mothers of serial killers on them who always say, ‘My boy is a good boy and I’m proud of him.’ None of them are deported.

          I think in such horrible crimes as rape it makes sense to concentrate on the criminals and not their mothers.

          Like

          Reply
  6. el Avatar
    el

    Forgot to add: when Ahdush committed what he committed, he knew Fatah would pay to his family. I don’t think Israel should allow that at all. Kill us and then your relatives are going to be helped by your organization, while still getting all rights of Israeli citizens?

    May be, it’s more beneficial for us to allow this situation, but imo his relatives deserve to be sent to Palestinian authority and their home – destroyed. Another case of limits of one’s rights on private property, btw.

    House demolition is a controversial tactic used by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) in Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip against Palestinians and Israeli settlers.
    […] During the 2nd intifada, the IDF adopted a policy of house demolition following a wave of suicide bombings. Israel justified the policy on the basis of deterrence against terrorism, and providing an incentive for families of potential suicide bombers to dissuade the bomber from attacking.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_demolition_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict

    Like

    Reply
    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      Punishing families for their relatives’ crime is what Stalin used to enjoy doing.

      I have to say, I’m disturbed about both the crimes and the way they are covered. Now it isn’t about the victims at all any longer and their tragedy is used for blatant political purposes. This is just not right.

      Like

      Reply
      1. el Avatar
        el

        // Now it isn’t about the victims at all any longer

        Have you read the article? Victims are fighting to be recognized by Israel as victims of terror. During years, I’ve read of quite a few such victims, and the state (almost) always refuses to do recognize them as such.

        Like

        Reply
        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          “Victims are fighting to be recognized by Israel as victims of terror. ”

          – is there financial compensation for that or something?

          Like

          Reply
  7. el Avatar
    el

    On another topic: on Sunday evening (when a new Jewish day begins) begins a Holocaust Remembrance Day in Israel. Our ministry of education (which new minister *loves* stupid reforms, in general) announced:

    Israel Holocaust education to begin in preschool
    Education Ministry says curriculum is meant to combat inappropriate teaching methods that distress children
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-holocaust-education-to-begin-in-preschool/

    Remember there was a discussion on your blog from which age parents should tell kids about anti-semitism, etc? Here, our children will hear a lot about genocide in daycare. One professor in a Hebrew newspaper wrote an opinion column against it, claiming that small kids often don’t distinguish between present and past, and that she has seen several children who were traumatised by it all. Of course, children would hear the sound a siren anyway.

    If it’s not too private, does Klubnikis know about it already? Do you think it’s a good idea in kindergarten with 4-5 years olds? (Our 1st grade is at the age of six.)

    Like

    Reply
  8. el Avatar
    el

    // – is there financial compensation for that or something?

    Please, look at the article, if you are interested:
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166968#.U1p6edp_tPl

    Like

    Reply
    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      OK, now I understand. You are saying the state discriminates against victims who were raped for “less important” reasons. Absolutely horrifying. Where are the feminist organizations in all this? This classification of rape as more or less respectable or important is abhorrent and feminists should fight against it!

      Like

      Reply
      1. el Avatar
        el

        It’s not purely that. Look: if you have a car accident and become disabled for life, you get help from the state. However, if you were injured while serving the state as a soldier, you get additional help since you were sent to protect everybody. Imo, in this example of mine, everything is fair.

        With rape, it’s more complicated. Nobody classifies rape as “more or less respectable,” and I wish all victims of rape would get all help they need. As laws stand now, victims of terrorism get more help, whether that terrorism was rape or something entirely different.

        Like

        Reply
        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          ” Look: if you have a car accident and become disabled for life, you get help from the state. However, if you were injured while serving the state as a soldier, you get additional help since you were sent to protect everybody. Imo, in this example of mine, everything is fair.”

          – There is a very obvious difference between an accident and rape. Rape is a violent crime committed purposefully by one individual against another.

          “Nobody classifies rape as “more or less respectable,” and I wish all victims of rape would get all help they need. As laws stand now, victims of terrorism get more help, whether that terrorism was rape or something entirely different.”

          – These two sentences contradict each other.

          I seriously wish I didn’t know about any of this because it’s just too disturbing.

          Like

          Reply
          1. Clarissa Avatar
            Clarissa

            Would you agree that if victims of “terrorist” rapes get more help and support that must inescapably mean that there is an assumption that their suffering was greater and more destructive?

            Like

            Reply
      2. Stille (@aperfectbalance) Avatar
        Stille (@aperfectbalance)

        Victims of rape, no matter what justifications the rapists might try to push, don’t find themselves in those circumstances because of a service they’re doing to the state. Any attempt to frame it as such is a masked attempt to subsume women’s sexuality (and this is generally women, I haven’t read about this case in particular, but I’m sure any male rape victims won’t get the public that scandalized) to the building and/or maintaining of a certain national identity. I find this very dangerous.

        Like

        Reply
        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          Stille: that’s exactly what I’m saying. It’s like the state is saying that there is JUST rape, which is ONLY about the woman, and the IMPORTANT rape, which is against “all of us.” How is this supposed to make the victims of JUST rape feel?

          It’s exactly like the mentality where the rape of a virgin was considered worse because it hurt her entire family. It’s a disgrace! Rape hurts victims of rape, not “society.” Jeez.

          Like

          Reply
  9. el Avatar
    el

    // I’m sure it’s not what you are saying but this is what I’m hearing.

    I am only saying the following:

    FROM WIKI:

    In both crime and law, hate crime is a usually violent, prejudice motivated crime that occurs when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her perceived membership in a certain social group. Examples of such groups include but are not limited to: ethnicity, gender identity, language, nationality, physical appearance, religion, or sexual orientation.

    A hate crime law is a law intended to deter bias-motivated violence. Hate crime laws are distinct from laws against hate speech in that hate crime laws enhance the penalties associated with conduct that is already criminal under other laws, while hate speech laws criminalize a category of speech.

    Like

    Reply
    1. Stille (@aperfectbalance) Avatar
      Stille (@aperfectbalance)

      The whole point of additional hate crime legislation is to aid the prosecution of crimes against members of groups that are normally discriminated against, since often people won’t bother properly prosecuting violence against trans people, Black people (in the US), Roma (in Europe) etc. Are you saying that Jewish people are discriminated against in Israel?

      Like

      Reply
  10. el Avatar
    el

    // There is a very obvious difference between an accident and rape.

    OK.

    Another driver has a case of road rage and injures you VS. you are injured as a soldier.

    // there are always mothers of serial killers on them who always say, ‘My boy is a good boy and I’m proud of him.’ None of them are deported.

    You completely change the subject here. Imagine a Muslim mother saying: “I am proud of my boy’s planning the Boston Marathon terror attack (or any other attack; I know who did that attack in reality). Those Americans deserve that for doing XYZ.” For how long would she stay a free American permanent resident / citizen? I am 100% sure the American public would treat her differently than those mothers.

    Like

    Reply
    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      “Another driver has a case of road rage and injures you VS. you are injured as a soldier.”

      – The soldier is compensated (or should be) by the organization that hired him or her. It’s a work-related injury.

      “You completely change the subject here. Imagine a Muslim mother saying: “I am proud of my boy’s planning the Boston Marathon terror attack (or any other attack; I know who did that attack in reality). Those Americans deserve that for doing XYZ.” For how long would she stay a free American permanent resident / citizen? ”

      – I haven’t heard of anybody’s citizenship being revoked and anybody being deported for that. Does anybody know? Are there conditions for the revocation of citizenship and subsequent deportation from the US on the basis of what people say?

      Like

      Reply
      1. el Avatar
        el

        // Are there conditions for the revocation of citizenship and subsequent deportation from the US on the basis of what people say?

        There are Obama’s kill lists on the basis of what people say, no? 🙂

        Like

        Reply
        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          And there is capital punishment. But we are discussing something very specific, namely deportation of citizens.

          Like

          Reply
      2. el Avatar
        el

        “Islamist hate preacher Anwar al-Awlaki and his 16-year-old son were both killed in separate drone strikes in Yemen. They were U.S. citizens. Awlaki had exorted Muslims including Nidal Hasan to kill Americans. ”

        USA would’ve killed him for being too successful at this kind of preaching, whether or not he had “done” anything himself. Inspiring others to kill is also an act.

        Like

        Reply
  11. el Avatar
    el

    // Would you agree that if victims of “terrorist” rapes get more help and support that must inescapably mean that there is an assumption that their suffering was greater and more destructive?

    Not necessary. It doesn’t have to follow logically. Somebody injured by another driver may suffer horrific injuries, but society decides to provide even more help (more money each month) to a disabled former soldier.

    Soon after Holocaust day, we’ll have Day of Remembrance, which full name is “Day of Remembrance for the Fallen Soldiers of Israel and Victims of Terrorism”.

    Here, victims want recognition as Victims of Terrorism.

    I think that every society views crimes against itself (hate crimes, terrorism, treason, etc) as, quoting you, “more destructive” to ITSELF (not the victims!) than “usual” crimes, which target individuals but not society as a whole. That’s why the former kind of criminals are often punished harsher. Look how many years Jonathan Jay Pollard has been in USA jail despite stopping being dangerous long ago vs. usual murderers (Pollard wasn’t one, I know) being released much sooner. And victims of former kind get more help. May be, the idea is “you’ve been targeted for being one of us, don’t fear and don’t leave our group as a result, we will help you even above usual, our group protects its members.”

    Like

    Reply
    1. Stille (@aperfectbalance) Avatar
      Stille (@aperfectbalance)

      And if soldiers are raped while they’re out doing Army stuff, there’s a case to be made for having the Army offer them extra compensation. But in the way this is described, it seems like it’s something that would apply to any Jewish woman (I find the “girls and women” phrasing very weird unless there’s a lot of 14-year-olds in this situation) raped by a Palestinian man….which means the Jewish women are doing the state a favour just by existing, and the road from that to Kinder, Küche, Kirche isn’t that long.

      Like

      Reply
      1. el Avatar
        el

        // I find the “girls and women” phrasing very weird unless there’s a lot of 14-year-olds in this situation

        The victims are often teens, still at school, and there’ve been cases of 8-9 year old girls.

        // And if soldiers are raped while they’re out doing Army stuff, there’s a case to be made for having the Army offer them extra compensation.

        Of course. I think it’s even done in Israel.

        // Kinder, Küche, Kirche

        It’s not about gender, it’s about nation. Look at my comment: “I think that every society views crimes against itself … “

        Like

        Reply
        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          Unless this criminal or these criminals rape men and women indiscriminately, this is absolutely about gender.

          Like

          Reply
        2. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          “Society” is an empty concept. It doesn’t have eyes, so it can’t view anything. There is a popualr consensus that women don’t matter a whole lot unless they can serve some useful purpose. This is the absolute essence of sexism.

          Like

          Reply
      2. Clarissa Avatar
        Clarissa

        It really bothers me that real suffering of real women gets shoved aside while an entire society plunges into the discussion of its favorite itch, nationalism. It’s like these women and their tragedy is being used for political purposes.

        This is why I believe the Israeli government is absolutely right in judging this criminal as a criminal who committed crimes against specific people. But it isn’t right in offering less rehabilitation and support to his victims.

        Like

        Reply
      3. el Avatar
        el

        There is zero need to worry about the road to “Kinder, Küche, Kirche” in Israel.

        Among other things, the country wants more religious (let alone secular) teenage girls in the army. Women in combat units are heroes of the nation. Even haredi women work to support their studying husbands, unlike in other faiths:

        “While husbands stay home and study Jewish texts, ultra-Orthodox women become primary breadwinners for their large families”
        http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4402181,00.html

        We have enough problems, but K-K-K isn’t one of them.

        Like

        Reply
      4. Stille (@aperfectbalance) Avatar
        Stille (@aperfectbalance)

        What I’m saying is that it’s very easy to present a bunch of crimes as something nation-related unless you have stringent requirements for having the justification for the crimes something the victims did. Under what circumstances would a Palestinian rapist of a Jewish victim not be tried under such hate crime laws, practically speaking?

        Like

        Reply
      5. Stille (@aperfectbalance) Avatar
        Stille (@aperfectbalance)

        “It really bothers me that real suffering of real women gets shoved aside while an entire society plunges into the discussion of its favorite itch, nationalism. It’s like these women and their tragedy is being used for political purposes.”

        No “it’s like” about it, from the way things look over here. If you want to rile people up against group X, the classical method is to start complaining that said group is raping our women and hurting our kids for not being part of group X. The rapes and other such acts of violence may very well happen, but unless they are happening in vastly greater numbers than the reverse (after correlating for other influences), they are not violence against society any more than other such acts are. (and yes, I agree that violence against society is a meaningless concept normally used as cover-up by those who try to damage the functioning of a society in quieter and more effective ways)

        Like

        Reply
        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          Yes, exactly, “our women”. Our property is damaged, and that’s serious crime.

          Like

          Reply
  12. el Avatar
    el

    I think people miss our discussion since it isn’t in a separate post and don’t join.

    Like

    Reply
    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      The other thread is so popular that its comments crowd out all others from the Most Recent Comments panel.

      I sure know how to enliven a blog.

      Like

      Reply
      1. Stille (@aperfectbalance) Avatar
        Stille (@aperfectbalance)

        Oh, this thread is certainly giving the Americanized thread a run for its money. Since it’s on such a sensitive subject though, I’d guess most people try to read more and speak less.

        Like

        Reply
  13. el Avatar
    el

    // Unless this criminal or these criminals rape men and women indiscriminately, this is absolutely about gender.

    Usually, they want to rape only women and girls, being not gay, but here:

    The Tel Aviv District Court on Wednesday sentenced Palestinian Ahmed Bani Jaber to 30 years in prison after he was convicted three months ago of raping a teenage girl and sexualy abusing her boyfriend,using a knive, at a parking garage in a city shopping mall last year.
    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d4_1372279399

    Like

    Reply
    1. Stille (@aperfectbalance) Avatar
      Stille (@aperfectbalance)

      “Usually, they want to rape only women and girls, being not gay”

      In that case, usually these rapes aren’t being used as a weapon of terror against society. In the sort of war-torn times and places that exemplify the rape-as-weapon-of-terror-against-a-group situation, said rapes have little to do with gender (or the sexual orientation of the rapists) since their point is to terrorize a group, not to terrorize a person or gratify the rapist.

      Like

      Reply
      1. el Avatar
        el

        // In the sort of war-torn times and places that exemplify the rape-as-weapon-of-terror-against-a-group situation

        We aren’t such kind of a war-torn place yet, thankfully. Not Congo. Our place and hate crimes have a different dynamic.

        Individual terrorists succeed sometimes to enter Israel and commit terror attacks. Sometimes an Israeli Arab citizen decides to become a terrorist too.

        Why attack men, if girls and women make easier and more attractive victims?

        Also, Palestinian society is extremely homophobic, and the terrorist’s “friends” may not “understand” rape of men, if done with a male organ, and not knifes.

        Like

        Reply
      2. Stille (@aperfectbalance) Avatar
        Stille (@aperfectbalance)

        If homophobia in Palestinian society works in any way like homophobia in the rest of the Mediterranean, it’s very likely that said Palestinian terrorist’s friends would very much understand his acts, esp if he talked in such terms as “making Israelis our bitches” and stuff. Symbolic emasculation is often used in such situations. The fact that the vast majority of rapes are against women and girls makes me heavily suspect this is a case of garden-variety rapists using antisemitic justifications to have their family and friends not break off contact with them. If non-Palestinian rapists could avoid some of the social consequences of their crimes – or, hell, even get paid for it – just by claiming antisemitism, do you not think they’d do it?

        One good way to figure out if this is actually an assault against the Israeli state and society, as opposed to a bunch of sociopaths lying in the way sociopaths are wont to do is statistics. Are Palestinians raping Jews in a larger proportion than Jews are raping Palestinians? Is that a difference that remains once you correlate for extra factors unrelated to the whole hate crime angle (poverty, education, any factors traditionally associated with criminality – I’m no criminologist so I’m not sure I’m suggesting the right ones but any criminologist worth their salt should be able to name them and correlate for them)? If no, and if there isn’t any very good explanation for why Palestinians may rape less than Jews except for the whole terrorism aspect, the whole terrorism aspect is probably not a factor.

        Like

        Reply
    2. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      Rapists who rape men are not gay. Rape in prison is rampant but gay prisoners are almost never the perpetrators, although very often the victims.

      Like

      Reply
  14. el Avatar
    el

    // Under what circumstances would a Palestinian rapist of a Jewish victim not be tried under such hate crime laws, practically speaking?

    If he doesn’t tell police he attacked the “Jewess” or “settler” because of national reasons.

    If his family doesn’t begin getting money from Fatah suddenly, as is usual for families of jailed terrorists.

    Both of those happened and Israel still hasn’t agreed to recognize the victims. Read the article I linked twice.

    Most attacks by Palestinians on Jews have a component of a hate crime, since they wouldn’t think of attacking Palestinian men/women/girls, but specifically search for Jews to attack.

    // The whole point of additional hate crime legislation is to aid the prosecution of crimes against members of groups that are normally discriminated against

    No. Even in wikipedia one can see other reasons:

    Hate crimes can have significant and wide-ranging psychological consequences, not only upon the direct victim but on others as well. A manual issued by the Attorney-General of the Province of Ontario in Canada lists the following consequences:[13]

    effects on people – reinforced by the degree of violence of a hate crime, usually stronger than that of a common one.

    effect on the targeted group – generalized terror in the group to which the victim belongs

    effect on other vulnerable groups – ominous effects over minority groups or over groups that identify themselves with the targeted one

    See, there is a talk about targeted group/s as well.

    Also, in “effects on people” point: I want to say something about the degree of violence, and hope I say it well enough not to hurt people. When somebody is a victim of acquaintance rape, it’s horrible. However, when it’s a terrorist attack by a Palestinian, there is the additional component – a victim can be almost 100% certain s/he will be killed too.

    Like

    Reply
    1. Stille (@aperfectbalance) Avatar
      Stille (@aperfectbalance)

      There is a talk about targeted, vulnerable groups. Also, “a victim can be almost 100% certain s/he will be killed too” and “victims are asking for recognition” are mutually contradictory statements.

      Like

      Reply
      1. el Avatar
        el

        // Also, “a victim can be almost 100% certain s/he will be killed too” and “victims are asking for recognition” are mutually contradictory statements.

        They aren’t. Many have been killed, and those who survived most often didn’t die only because of help of other Jews AND/OR being lucky enough to fight back and run away.

        The chance of getting murdered is extremely high, in comparison with acquaintance rape.

        // There is a talk about targeted, vulnerable groups.

        Israelis are and see themselves as a targeted group by Palestinians. We are at war. Terror is a war tactic.

        Is USA a vulnerable group? Still, it reacts to terrorist bombings differenly than to usual crimes.

        Like

        Reply
      2. Stille (@aperfectbalance) Avatar
        Stille (@aperfectbalance)

        Ok, if we’re talking chances, I want numbers and statistics. Anything less is, at best, pointless and at worst, an attempt to insert biases into the discussion. For what it’s worth, the chance of getting murdered in stranger rapes is generally much higher than in acquaintance rapes, so how does the chance for murder in inter-group stranger rapes compare to intra-group stranger rapes? Until we see some numbers, this line of argument is useless.

        Like

        Reply
        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          “For what it’s worth, the chance of getting murdered in stranger rapes is generally much higher than in acquaintance rapes”

          – Yet it wouldn’t make any sense to adjudicate these crimes differently and treat victims differently.

          Like

          Reply
      3. Stille (@aperfectbalance) Avatar
        Stille (@aperfectbalance)

        Of course. You treat victims according to the level of trauma they actually went through.

        Like

        Reply
        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          I saw an episode of Shark Tank yesterday. There was a woman who created a business, was running it alone but gave her husband the controlling ownership of it leaving only a 10% stake for herself. In her own company.

          When the stunned venture capitalists asked her what had possessed her to do something so boneheaded, she chirped happily? “But it’s all both of ours anyways.”

          This is the core problem of why women are still in such a pathetic degraded position even in developed countries. They don’t even try to see themselves as separate individuals, with separate interests, with separate needs.

          They think their husbands’ property, success, everything is “ours,”. Silly fools.

          And it’s the same thing we see in this conversation. The same thing. Women throw women’s interests under the bus because of this incomprehensible obsession with the nonexistent “our” issues.

          Like

          Reply
    2. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      “Most attacks by Palestinians on Jews have a component of a hate crime, since they wouldn’t think of attacking Palestinian men/women/girls, but specifically search for Jews to attack.”

      – How about crimes of Jews against Palestinians? Do they get the same treatment as being hate crimes?

      “When somebody is a victim of acquaintance rape, it’s horrible. However, when it’s a terrorist attack by a Palestinian, there is the additional component – a victim can be almost 100% certain s/he will be killed too.”

      – Yes, murder is even worse than rape sometimes. Although that’s very cultural and individual, too.

      Like

      Reply
      1. el Avatar
        el

        // – How about crimes of Jews against Palestinians? Do they get the same treatment as being hate crimes?

        Ministers nix bill defining ‘Price Tag’ attacks as terror
        As extremist Jewish violence against Palestinians grows, many in government, Shin Bet are seeking stronger enforcement powers
        http://www.timesofisrael.com/ministers-nix-bill-defining-price-tag-attacks-as-terror/

        Like

        Reply
    3. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      “The whole point of additional hate crime legislation is to aid the prosecution of crimes against members of groups that are normally discriminated against”

      – This is absolutely correct. Hate crimes against the powerful majority have been argued but are never sustained as charges.

      Like

      Reply
  15. el Avatar
    el

    // Yes, exactly, “our women”. Our property is damaged, and that’s serious crime.

    It’s the same about men. “Our men are murdered by Muslim terrorists, our society must protect itself.” It’s not about gender.

    Like

    Reply
  16. el Avatar
    el

    // Oh, this thread is certainly giving the Americanized thread a run for its money. Since it’s on such a sensitive subject though, I’d guess most people try to read more and speak less.

    If you are right, it’s a pity. I would love to hear more opinions.

    Like

    Reply
  17. twicerandomly Avatar
    twicerandomly

    I used to be interested in the Israel/Palestinian situation, because I thought there was a solution. I don’t anymore. I don’t think enough Israelis or Palestinians care about a peaceful resolution, so why should I. They will just go on killing each other for years and decades, and blaming each other. So I feel sorry for the people stuck in that benighted bit of land, but I’m not taking sides.

    Like

    Reply
    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      Twicerandomly: this summarizes my position perfectly. Both sides are passionately invested in the continuation of the conflict. As sad as that is.

      Like

      Reply

Leave a comment

A conservative literary critic and college professor

Recent posts