Malaysia Airlines Flight Disappears Over Ukraine

Horrible news:

Malaysia Airlines reported Thursday it had lost contact with a flight bound from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur over Ukraine.

The Interfax news agency said the airliner, with 295 people on board, crashed in Ukraine near the Russian border and that it may have been shot down.

The Interfax report said the plane came down 20 miles short of entering Russian airspace.

Terrorists are desperately trying not to let the conflict die down. This is the latest in their efforts to involve as many parties as possible in it.

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44 responses to “Malaysia Airlines Flight Disappears Over Ukraine”

bwcarey

July 17, 2014

bless them, evil spirit never wants war zones to find peace, pray

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valter07

July 17, 2014

The problem is – just like in Israeli-Palestinian conflict, there are more than one side who could profit from that incident.
Russia could shoot the plane down and pin it on Ukraine to prove Ukraine is a failed state which shoots its weapons left and right, unprofessionally. And to reduce the world’s support of Ukraine.
Separatists (if they have long-range surface-to-air missiles) might have mistaken the plane for Ukrainian transport jet. Or they could deliberately create pretext for pausing the hostilities (because there will be a bunch of international experts investigating the crash site) so that they could regroup and fortify Donetsk. Or retreat to Russia, for example.
Ukraine could shoot the plane down and pin it on Russia to prove Russia is participating in the war directly, using weapons not available to separatists…
Or they could shoot it mistaking it for a Russian warplane.
Probably there are other possibilities…

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Clarissa

July 17, 2014

Who has been shooting one air vehicle after another down for months? Why look for meaningless, non-existent possibilities when there is such an obvious and constantly repeated pattern?

On which planet would either the Russian or the Ukrainian army actually want to shoot an airplane full of civilians? This is a disaster for both of them.

This is just like the case of the Nazi uniform all over again. People who openly identify as Nazis and openly pose with tattoos of swastikas and Hitler cannot possibly leave behind a Nazi uniform because why on earth would they even have it?

“Russia could shoot the plane down and pin it on Ukraine to prove Ukraine is a failed state which shoots its weapons left and right, unprofessionally. And to reduce the world’s support of Ukraine.”

– Because Russia cares so much about this non-existent “support.”

“Ukraine could shoot the plane down and pin it on Russia to prove Russia is participating in the war directly, using weapons not available to separatists”

– Those who don’t want to be convinced at this point, after everything, will not be convinced now no matter what happens.

“Probably there are other possibilities”

– I’m thinking maybe Estonians shot it down because they really have a motive. 🙂

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valter07

July 17, 2014

—= People who openly identify as Nazis and openly pose with tattoos of swastikas and Hitler cannot possibly leave behind a Nazi uniform because why on earth would they even have it?

I’d appreciate if you would not misrepresent my arguments. They may have those uniforms at home all right. But why would they take those uniforms with them when going to war against alleged “Ukrainian nazis”? (I hope you see the quotation marks?) So that they could wear Nazi uniforms at the victory parade over … Nazis?

– I’m thinking maybe Estonians shot it down because they really have a motive.

Sure they do have a motive. They do not have long-range missiles, though.

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Clarissa

July 17, 2014

“I’d appreciate if you would not misrepresent my arguments. They may have those uniforms at home all right. But why would they take those uniforms with them when going to war against alleged “Ukrainian nazis”?”

– Try reading their websites – like I have been doing for years – and you will know the answer. These are their prized possessions of which they are most proud. And they are not going to war against “alleged “Ukrainian nazis”. They are going to war against an inferior race. There are different groups of terrorists coming in from Russia with different slogans.

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Michael Blekhman

July 17, 2014

There is another possibility: the evil Malaysians shot down themselves.

FYI: Ukraine has no air defense at all. That’s official data.

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valter07

July 17, 2014

Note to myself: do not argue with people whose country is under attack…

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1. twicerandomly
  
  July 17, 2014
  
  Ha! I learned that lesson, too. But sometimes I just can’t help myself.
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    July 17, 2014
    
    “Ha! I learned that lesson, too. But sometimes I just can’t help myself.”
    
    – Then try. Obviously, people who follow the events will be more informed than you. That’s self-evident.
    
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2. Clarissa
  
  July 17, 2014
  
  “Note to myself: do not argue with people whose country is under attack…”
  
  – We’ll argue in a few years when Estonia “attacks itself.” 🙂
  
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3. valter07
  
  July 17, 2014
  
  Who is speaking of “attacking themselves”? Hint: there is a person speaking of it, but this person is not me…
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    July 17, 2014
    
    According to the anti-terrorist operation’s information center, Ukraine’s aviation did not fly today. The area where the plane crashed was in an area controlled by Kremlin-backed separatists.
    
    Russian-backed separatist leader Igor Girkin (who also goes by the name of Strelkov) claimed credit. “The plane has just been taken down somewhere around Torez (Donetsk Oblast). It lays there behind the Progress mine. We did warn you – do not fly in ‘our sky.’ And here is the video proving another ‘bird’ falling down. The bird went down behind the slagheap, not in the residential district. So no peaceful people were injured.” There is also information about another plane shot.
    
    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukraine-government-confirms-crash-of-malaysian-plane-in-donbas-356499.html
    
    Let’s now just agree that I know what I’m talking about. 🙂
    
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twicerandomly

July 17, 2014

In 2001, Ukrainian military accidentally shot down a Russian passenger jet. If they could do it in 2001, why not now?

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1. Clarissa
  
  July 17, 2014
  
  “In 2001, Ukrainian military accidentally shot down a Russian passenger jet. If they could do it in 2001, why not now?”
  
  – Since 2001, we’ve had Yanukovich who completely dismantled the Ukrainian army. But I know I’m wasting my time offering you any point of view that is not completely pro-Russian.
  
  Remember, I’m still waiting for your honest answer as to why you want to defend the Russians so much.
  
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2. twicerandomly
  
  July 17, 2014
  
  I am not pro-Russian. I am trying to find out the truth, from the morass of propaganda that comes from all media. I have no irons in the fire. I don’t care what the truth is. I don’t care if it shows that Russia is the gatekeeper to hell. But there is only one acceptable viewpoint here, Russia is evil, Ukraine is holy and questioning this means you are a Russian apologist.
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    July 17, 2014
    
    “But there is only one acceptable viewpoint here, Russia is evil, Ukraine is holy and questioning this means you are a Russian apologist.”
    
    – The only person who keeps repeating this is you. I said as strongly as I possibly could that the idea that the plane was shot down by the Russian army is as ridiculous as the idea that the Ukrainian army did it. You are choosing not to hear this, so I’ve got to wonder why.
    
    The terrorists have already claimed responsibility, by the way.
    
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Stringer Bell

July 17, 2014

“Terrorists are desperately trying not to let the conflict die down.”

Could you be more specific about your guess?

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Clarissa

July 17, 2014

“Could you be more specific about your guess?”

– Girkin (the leader of the terrorists) has been begging and even threatening Russia to send more people. Now he has taken responsibility for shooting down the plane. Putin sends a lot of weapons but he hasn’t been able to scare up any more volunteers, or not a lot, especially since bodies started coming back in zinc boxes.

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shadowofashade

July 17, 2014

Just a rundown of various links:

NYtime article

““We don’t have the technical ability to hit a plane at that height,” he said. He said the plane apparently came down in an area of Ukrainian military operations and that it was not out of the question that the Ukrainians themselves shot it down….“Remember the Black Sea plane diaster.”

Michael McFaul Twitter Feed
@McFaul · 2h

Russian GRU officer Strelkov admitting that he ordered the missile strike against the Malaysian jet.

McFaul is the former US ambassador to Russia.

Flight Tracker location data located here.

Going with the principle of Cui Bono? (and the bad track record of Malaysian Airlines), one does have to wonder why anyone would fly over a war-zone in the
first place…

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Clarissa

July 17, 2014

“Going with the principle of Cui Bono? (and the bad track record of Malaysian Airlines), one does have to wonder why anyone would fly over a war-zone in the first place…”

– Interesting. This definitely warrants thinking about.

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1. Stille (@aperfectbalance)
  
  July 18, 2014
  
  They were flying on a trajectory that’s used for most international flights in the area, so the first presumption of anyone on the ground should be civilian international flight. This was also a very long flight, near the plane’s maximal range, so any detours from the shortest path might not have been coverable by adding extra fuel before takeout but would have had to come out of the budget for avoiding storms etc. There’s also a possibility that adding more fuel would’ve been possible but too expensive (fuel is a major airplane cost) for Malaysian Airlines. I’m really not an expert (or even a very knowledgeable amateur) but that flight’s trajectory itself doesn’t look suspicious to me. I’d love extra info from anyone who knows better than me, of course.
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    July 18, 2014
    
    I saw a map on TV that showed planes avoiding Ukraine. The war zone is just a tiny strip of land. Ukraine is a big country, the second largest in Europe, and the terrorists only hold a smallish portion of land. I’m not trying to blame the air carrier. I’m just wondering if there are people who are unaware where the fighting is taking place.
    
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Ed123

July 17, 2014

Pretty obvious with anyone with half a brain that this was a Russian separatist attack that mistook the plane for a Ukraininan transport plane. The seps were even bosting about shooting down a plane before it became known that it was a civilian passanger plane.

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Thoreau

July 17, 2014

I think this is the work of MSNBC or Fox News. They saw how CNN spent most of their cash holdings to relocate their entire operation to Kuala Lumpur after the Malaysian flight disappeared in spring. They’re betting that this will force CNN to move their entire operation to eastern Ukraine, and between the moving costs and the security costs they’ll have to file for bankruptcy.

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Clarissa

July 17, 2014

“While it’s always dangerous to underestimate the divisions in Europe, if any kind of definitive intelligence linking Russia to this tragedy emerges, it will be much harder for skeptical Europeans to remain straddling the fence”
http://www.the-american-interest.com/blog/2014/07/17/is-this-a-game-changer/

– Ha ha. As we have seen, nothing at all can happen to turn Europeans away from Putin.

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Clarissa

July 17, 2014

And here is idiocy from the otehr side: “U.S. officials told NPR that they believe the plane was shot down by a surface-to-air missile, but it was unclear whether the missile came from Ukraine or across the border in Russia. Ukraine, and the area where the plane crashed in particular, has been embroiled in a separatist insurgency for months.”
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/07/17/332355791/some-airlines-say-they-are-avoiding-ukrainian-airspace?ft=1&f=1001
The idea that Russians would be shooting down the plane is beyond bizarre.

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musteryou

July 17, 2014

From Facebook:

In 1978 and 1979 two Rhodesian airliners were shot down and on the first one the passengers who survived were butchered by terrorists. Both planes were brought down with SAM 7 missiles and the world did nothing. There was no condemnation by the Americans or the British and the reality of life is that if you accept this sort of behavior in one place you condone it in other places. My sincere sympathies to those on board the Malaysian Airlines aircraft and their surviving relatives. The blame is squarely on the shoulders of the Russians who will wriggle out of this one just like they saw no responsibility for the Viscount disasters in 1978 and 1979. Shame on you world leaders, hang your heads in shame for allowing this nonsense to continue unabated.
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July 18, 2014

I was especially sad / angry after hearing that “Malaysia Plane Crash Victims Included About 100 AIDS Conference Attendees” , “including a former president of the International AIDS Society”. “Prominent AIDS researcher Joep Lange among 298 killed”

Also, that there were many children there, according to Russian TV.

All kinds of scum begin wars and the best people (intelligent and/or brave combat soldiers, like in Israel) are dying in them.

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Stringer Bell

July 18, 2014

“..and the best people (intelligent and/or brave combat soldiers, like in Israel) are dying in them.”

Jesus christ, how old are you? Who writes like this? North Koreans probably aren’t this effusive about their country. And they’re made to think like that with torture.

BEST PEOPLE! WITH INTELLIGENCE AND/OR BRAVERY!

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el

July 18, 2014

// “..and the best people (intelligent and/or brave combat soldiers, like in Israel)

I mean intelligent AIDS researchers & brave combat soldiers.

Israeli combat forces now in Gaza are risking their lives to protect their country. That’s function of soldiers . And everybody, including me in the past (not combat) and my relatives, serves in Israel, except (most of) Haredi and Arabs.

Whether one should negotiate or attack is government’s decision, not this 20-year old’s, who was killed previous night.

May be, I expressed it badly, so here again: whether you’re Right or Left in Israel, even if you’re 100% against our government’s behavior, you feel the pain of our soldiers being endangered (of course, much less than this dead boy’s family 🙂 ) and value those 18-year-olds who are ready to die for me, among others. Many Europian poets expressed the sentiment of best, most brave youths dying at wars (which old men begin).

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1. el
  
  July 18, 2014
  
  I meant :
  
  of course, much less than this dead boy’s family 😦
  
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2. Clarissa
  
  July 18, 2014
  
  Let me put everybody out of their misery: “the best are the first to die” is a Russianism. It is always said at funerals, for instance. I don’t like the expression either but it’s just a cultural thing.
  
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July 18, 2014

// Jesus christ, how old are you? Who writes like this? North Koreans probably aren’t this effusive about their country. And they’re made to think like that with torture.

Clarissa, if I ever write something that sounds strange, ask for clarification. Sometimes I try to write fast and don’t express myself well.

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July 18, 2014

// Let me put everybody out of their misery: “the best are the first to die” is a Russianism. It is always said at funerals, for instance. I don’t like the expression either but it’s just a cultural thing.

You are completely wrong about “a cultural thing.” I left in early teens and don’t remember this expression. If cultural, then Israeli culture, not Russian. In my case.

What I mean is that, on average, best young Israeli people go to most prestigious and most dangerous military units. I live in Israel and I know that for a fact. They are among ground troups, which die first. When I went on a date with a good-looking young man (very rare for me to think so), and he said “I pretended to be insane so that not to waste 3 years in the army,” I decided never see him again that same moment. I served, my relatives too.

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Clarissa

July 18, 2014

” I left in early teens and don’t remember this expression.”

– What language do you speak at home?

“When I went on a date with a good-looking young man (very rare for me to think so), and he said “I pretended to be insane so that not to waste 3 years in the army,” I decided never see him again that same moment”

– He must totally speak Russian at home. This is a very Russian-speaking thing to do. 🙂

You are just like me. I also always rejected people outright after a single statement I’d dislike. 🙂

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1. el
  
  July 18, 2014
  
  // – What language do you speak at home?
  
  With my mother Russian, with a Hebrew phrase here and there
  
  // He must totally speak Russian at home.
  
  Yes But most Russian speakers in Israel serve,
  
  // You are just like me. I also always rejected people outright after a single statement I’d dislike.
  
  I don’t think I reject “outright after a single statement” There is a difference between some views I may not like VS revealing something important which characterizes somebody as a low kind of person, For instance, “when my ex-wife was fighting me for child support I decided not to pay” OR “when my former girlfriend forced me to put her in a hospital, making me that angry”
  
  // – I think it started after WWII back in the USSR, so there is a similarity.
  
  Imo, many people were saying it after WW1 and WW2 in Europe For instance, in anti-war poetry
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    July 18, 2014
    
    “With my mother Russian, with a Hebrew phrase here and there”
    
    – Then that’s your culture. It’s OK, it’s mine as well, as much as I detest that fact.
    
    “I don’t think I reject “outright after a single statement” There is a difference between some views I may not like VS revealing something important which characterizes somebody as a low kind of person,”
    
    – I wasn’t being critical. When I say people are like me, that’s the highest form of praise I’m capable of. 🙂
    
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July 18, 2014

In Russia, it’s just an expression, which doesn’t mean anything. In Israel, unfortunately, it’s often reality. I know, I live hear, Clarissa.

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el

July 18, 2014

Live HERE.

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Clarissa

July 18, 2014

“In Russia, it’s just an expression, which doesn’t mean anything. In Israel, unfortunately, it’s often reality. I know, I live hear, Clarissa.”

– I think it started after WWII back in the USSR, so there is a similarity.

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July 18, 2014

// – I wasn’t being critical. When I say people are like me, that’s the highest form of praise I’m capable of.

I understood that 🙂 But didn’t want to get praise I didn’t deserve

// – Then that’s your culture.

I *want* it to be my culture (combined with parts of Israeli culture), but fear it’s not really true. Suppose one has been living in Israel since early teens, most of my life has passed in Israel VS you were an adult when you left, I was mentally a child. How can I honestly say Russian culture is mine too? Will I be able to say so at the age of 60, despite only first ~ 1/6 of life passing in Ukraine? What does “your culture” mean in your opinion? I don’t have “Russian / Soviet mentality,” if there is such a thing. Think I have “Israeli mentality.” Suppose you haven’t had experience with immigrant children (immigrating at ages 11+), and probably haven’t thought what “belonging to culture X” means for them? If you have thoughts on it, would love to read!

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Clarissa

July 18, 2014

“How can I honestly say Russian culture is mine too?”

– Not Russian, Russian-speaking. That’s a HUGE difference. Language = culture.

“Suppose you haven’t had experience with immigrant children (immigrating at ages 11+), and probably haven’t thought what “belonging to culture X” means for them?”

– This all depends on the language. I was once tutoring a guy who emigrated from Russia to Canada at the age of 6. And he was profoundly one of us and will always be. And I also used to know a guy whose parents were from Spain but he was born in Canada and never lived in Spain (except going on vacations, etc.). But he was completely and utterly Spanish. A Spanish-speaker, of course.

This is a great topic for a future post, you are right.

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July 18, 2014

// “With my mother Russian, with a Hebrew phrase here and there”
– Then that’s your culture.

Sometimes I can’t translate a word from Hebrew to Russian Only speaking a language at home since early age leads to that Still my culture? Don’t see how I am different from other Israelis, except knowing Russian, being relatively acquainted with Russian lit and having some childhood memories from another place. 😦

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Clarissa

July 18, 2014

“Sometimes I can’t translate a word from Hebrew to Russian Only speaking a language at home since early age leads to that Still my culture”

– I also use English words all the time in Russian. It’s every immigrant’s fate. 🙂

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