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How Russia Sees the Tragedy of Flight MH17

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A very good article on how the tragedy of Flight MH17 is perceived in Russia:

Did you know Malaysia Air Flight 17 was full of corpses when it took off from Amsterdam? Did you know that, for some darkly inexplicable reason, on July 17, MH17 moved off the standard flight path that it had taken every time before, and moved north, toward rebel-held areas outside Donetsk? Or that the dispatcherssummoned the plane lower just before the crash? Or that the plane had been recently re-insured? Or that the Ukrainian army has air defense systems in the area? Or that it was the result of the Ukrainian military mistaking MH 17 for Putin’s presidential plane, which looks strangely similar?

Did you know that the crash of MH17 was all part of an American conspiracy to provoke a big war with Russia?

Obama is showing great leadership in addressing the tragedy. Of course, if back in February he had started doing and saying what he is now, things would be different. But better late than never, I guess. I’ve been listening to his speeches on Ukraine with horror, afraid of hearing something that will put me off him for good. On the day the plane was shot down, Obama disappointed with a vastly insensitive, “This looks like it might have been a tragedy,” but yesterday and today he’s been very clear and forceful on the subject. Which is good news.

22 responses to “How Russia Sees the Tragedy of Flight MH17”

  1. Stringer Bell Avatar
    Stringer Bell

    “Obama disappointed with a vastly insensitive, “This looks like it might have been a tragedy,”

    Well, at least he acknowledged something bad happened, tragedy or not. Regarding the Gaza attacks all he has to say is he stands with Israel. John Kerry actually said ‘Israel is under siege’. It’s like words have no meaning anymore.

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      I hear that Kerry also said that “Hamas should be reasonable.” Which makes me wonder what his definition of reason is. Especially after a hospital was shelled and hundreds have been killed already.

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      1. Stringer Bell Avatar
        Stringer Bell

        ‘Others’, indeed.

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        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          Unbelievable. What kind of an animal can come up with such a title?

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          1. Clarissa Avatar
            Clarissa

            “At last count, more than 550 Palestinians — mostly civilians — and 25 Israeli soldiers have died. On Monday, an Israeli strike hit a hospital in central Gaza, killing people in the intensive care unit.”

            http://www.npr.org/2014/07/21/333737321/israel-targets-tunnels-but-hits-elsewhere-including-gaza-hospital?ft=1&f=1001

            There does seem to be a scary similarity between Putin and the Israeli government: they don’t seem to care about the international image.

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      2. valter07 Avatar
        valter07

        —Unbelievable. What kind of an animal can come up with such a title?

        Not an animal, but a human being used to eternal war and resulting dehumanization of adversaries.
        By the way, if we were to make parallels between Putin, Israel, Ukraine, etc, I’d draw those parallels differently:
        Ukraine=Israel
        Pro-Russian rebels=HAMAS/Islamic Jihad/Martyrs-of-Whatever/etc
        Russia=(Part of) Islamic World supporting the HAMAS
        Putin=Ahmadinejad

        I am not implying that Ukraine treats its insurgents exactly the same way Israel treats Palestinians, but I am worried Ukraine could turn out the way Israel did, with all the political and psychological consequences of that arrangement. (Obviously, I am not blaming only Ukrainians for these developments or potential developments, but this is one of the possibilities, and I see signs some Ukrainian patriots would welcome such a possibility.)

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        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          Putin has won the war. There is nothing that can be done. He has managed to impose his narrative, and now there is nothing that can change it. People want to believe it, and if they want to, they will. I know this is useless but I’m still compelled to try.

          There are no “its insurgents.” Ukraine has been invaded by Russia. Girkin and Borodai are citizens of the Russian Federation, that is not and never has been in dispute. The weapons used are all brought over from Russia. The Chechens, the neo-Nazis, the “regular” volunteers are not concealing the fact that they have crossed the border. They are publishing their info on social networks, they are very open about who they are. Chechens patrolling the streets of Donetsk laugh and say,”We are Kadyrov’s boys.” They do all this so openly precisely because they know that nobody will hear. Because nobody wants to hear. People want to believe in Ukrainian insurgency and that is what they’ll do.

          Just like with any invasion, there is a small number of local declasse elements who have joined the invaders. Hitler had some locals defect to his side in every country he invaded, yet it doesn’t occur to anybody to refer to the existence of French, Russian, Ukrainian, etc. Polizei as “French, Russian, Ukrainian insurgency.” Everybody somehow managed to accept that Hitler invaded.

          The “Novorossia,” “The People’s Republic of Donetsk” didn’t exist in anybody’s mind before the FSB invented them, named them, and then crossed the border and created them. The proof of all this is overwhelming. There is and has never been any interest in independence from Ukraine in any part of Ukraine. I even feel bizarre writing this. This was all created in the past few months by Russia. If citizens of the Russian federation cross the border back today, the problem will disappear.

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      3. valter07 Avatar
        valter07

        The leaders are indeed Russian, and are supported by Russia, no question about that. But there are a lot of locals among the grunts and lower-rank commanders. I know some people in my own country who would welcome Russia, and a few who could probably join the armed insurgency if it gets organized by Russia. Despite my country being in much better shape than Ukraine.
        This conversation reminds me of a dialogue at some other forum… Remember Russian patriots were accusing the US and the West of all kinds of anti-Russian conspiracies, and in particular of “ruining the Soviet Union”? And my response then was precisely the same as it is now – “Try supporting Texas separatism, you have a lot of oil money… Just buy some local politicians. According to your logic it should work easily.” One cannot incite separatism from outside if there are no internal conditions for separatism.

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        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          This is precisely why I’m insisting that there is no separatism in Ukraine. Haven’t you seen the pleas of Girkin and Co for Putin to send more people because there aren’t any local volunteers?

          And Estonia is extremely different precisely because of the language issue and of people who specifically identify as Russian. As I said before, I cannot even imagine a generation of young Ukrainians who barely speak Russian comparable to the generation of young people from the Baltics.

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      4. valter07 Avatar
        valter07

        Sorry, but I tend to disagree.
        It is only partially about what language one speaks or does not speak; self-identifying as a Russian, which may or may not involve identifying as Russian imperialist, is not directly correlated with language proficiency. Besides, one logical conclusion from your rejecting comparisons between Estonia and Ukraine is that in Estonia, unlike Ukraine, with larger language divide, Russian separatism would be justified???

        And in North-East of Estonia 90% are Russian, and everything functions pretty much like in Ukraine: everyone speaks Russian, but official business is done in Estonian.
        Anyway, back to Ukraine. Imagine some random Russian-speaker of Donetsk. Now, not in your memories of 15 years ago. He sees Bulgaria and Romania which are doing badly (or at least worse than Russia) after joining the EU, and he believes this is what Euromaidan is offering (let’s face it, what would make him believe, knowing the history of the previous 20 years, that Ukraine will suddenly do well in the EU, defeat corruption, oligarchs and general poor management?) He sees the Baltic states, with Quebec-level nation-building, “this land belongs to us, and we generously agree to consider you gastarbeiter (but this is a compromise, because in fact you are occupation heritage, better remember that, and not make any demands)”. And by the way, your argument that everyone speaks Russian in Ukraine will be used by nationalists as justification for tougher language policies and other nation-building measures. Because they, like you, believe and feel this is not normal, this is imperial oppression heritage, and something to be changed, that Ukrainian language needs more protection, etc. Some Rabinovich getting more votes than the “Right Sector” does not necessarily prove me wrong. In Estonia the characters that came to power after the independence were much more nationalist than those who were most prominent during the fight for independence (which went under the slogan “for freedom, yours and ours”, and as a result was supported by many local Russians). The leader of independence movement is by now generally despised for being too pro-Russian… The Right Sector does not have to win the elections, there is other possibility – nationalist protectionist measures being adopted by mainstream parties. Which is rather likely to happen, especially given the war.

        You may think I am just forcing my pet theory explaining Baltic states and Quebec onto Ukraine, to which it is inapplicable. First, it applies to more countries, but this is not the point I want to make here. Having access to Estonian information space has some advantages. Namely, I know that current Ukrainian elites do consider Baltic states as a desirable model. How far they actually manage to go this way is a different issue, but they will try, and this will further alienate some local Russians.

        Why should a Russian-speaker of Donetsk want any of this? Of course this is where the Russian propaganda came in, and exaggerated both potential economic problems and national problems to the scale of economic catastrophe and genocide of Russian-speakers, respectively. And then Russia sent in the “volunteers” to lead the people… But I see a lot of internal reasons for separatism in Ukraine. Also, do not underestimate the somewhat irrational desire to belong to something “great”. To us this Russian “greatness” might be of dubious variety, but not to those who already identify with Russia…

        I suspect that in mid 20th century when most of decolonization was going on, and precedents were set, nobody was thinking about situations where independence of certain territory resulted in a country populated by several groups of comparable size with different national or religious identity (or both) and different political preferences. In some cases one of those groups being the former empire-folk… Everyone probably assumed that whoever does not like some nation-building policies (especially the descendants of empire-folk) would just leave… Or maybe the Europeans did not care if freed locals started oppressing each other after being freed, and it did not occur to them that something like that could happen in Europe… And now everyone is trying to force nation-state (of the domineering ethnic group) model onto those situations, and it is not working anywhere.

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        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          “Besides, one logical conclusion from your rejecting comparisons between Estonia and Ukraine is that in Estonia, unlike Ukraine, with larger language divide, Russian separatism would be justified???”

          – If a doctor says that I have every pre-condition that can lead to my developing diabetes, is the doctor “justifying” diabetes? Come on, you really know better. 🙂

          “Imagine some random Russian-speaker of Donetsk.”

          – I don’t need to imagine them because that’s my entire Ukrainian side of the family. 🙂 Here is the problem we are having here, my friend. You are imagining, concluding, assuming, comparing, etc. And I simply know these people. I don’t like them, that’s true. But I know them.

          “And by the way, your argument that everyone speaks Russian in Ukraine will be used by nationalists as justification for tougher language policies and other nation-building measures.”

          – When that happens, we’ll talk.

          “The Right Sector does not have to win the elections, there is other possibility – nationalist protectionist measures being adopted by mainstream parties. Which is rather likely to happen, especially given the war.”

          – Again, when that happens, we’ll talk.

          “He sees the Baltic states, with Quebec-level nation-building”

          – I don’t think you have actually met any people from the Donetsk region, have you? 🙂 Because this degree of intellectual sophistication is not there.

          “Why should a Russian-speaker of Donetsk want any of this?”

          – They might want, they might not want. The issue is that this is an extremely passive, laid-back, indifferent, and inert population. For them to actually do something as enormous as posting a leaflet or two about what they do or do not want is unthinkable. That they would actually take up arms to prevent some imaginary scenario of Ukraine becoming like the Baltics – if you met anybody from the Donetsk region you’d know why the whole thing is just funny. Of course, I have family members in that region who drawl between yawn and yawn, “Yeah, like, we might even be better off with Russia, like, whatever. . .” None of them is obviously engaging in any military activities on either side. None of them is engaging in any activities and hasn’t been engaging in them ever. Which is the only and real problem of the region.

          “But I see a lot of internal reasons for separatism in Ukraine.”

          – And 3 doctors see every internal reason for me to have diabetes. But I don’t. 🙂 It works the other way round, too. There are zero reasons for separatism in Quebec right now, yet it exists. Like anybody cares about reasons in this respect.

          “And now everyone is trying to force nation-state (of the domineering ethnic group) model onto those situations, and it is not working anywhere.”

          – There are no defined ethnic groups in Ukraine for obvious reasons, so this discussion is moot.

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        2. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          Your reasoning by the way is very similar to Putin who obviously believed that, since South-East of Ukraine had reasons to join the separatist movement once Russia started it, it would do that. We are all now seeing how much of a mistake that assumption was.

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        3. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          And this was also Hitler’s only hope for the Blitzkrieg: people had every reason to hate USSR so they do join the German troops. And we all know how that went.

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      5. Marek Parbo Avatar
        Marek Parbo

        Valter, where do you get your information that 90% of people in North estonia are russians, or russian speakers? it may be close to it in eastern estonia, like Peipsi lake area and Virumaa(lääne/ida-) because those areas are next to russia border. I live in a small town near capital(north estonia) and i started learning russian in 6th grade, and it was voluntary(i had to choose between German and Russian(two of the most useful languages here aside English)). If i had attended high school(i went directly to study profession: IT) i possibly could also started learning Finnish(kinda pointless,since Estonian and FInnish languages have similar roots and we pretty much understand each-other), Swedish and france(it was probably disconnected for a year if i remember right) or Chinese(it was fresh option since when i was in 9th grade. Like only from my family, I, my parents, grand grandmother speak russian(not much,but neccesary, pretty much medium/slightly lower level), while i only speak basic (ask directions, how much something costs, basic communication (situations and so on) i speak pretty much as a 4 year old russian(based on my russian friends, one who had to go to army when he turned 19 in arhangelsk), but my brother or sister (6 and 11) dont know a single russian word aside “магазин”. i remember that almost from ca -30 pupils from my class, 10-12 went to study german). Since not alot russians speak estonian(not even really basic level), if i ask directions in capital and bump into russian, sometimes i have to use russian to communicate whit russians, but we estonians dont speak almost a single word when we communicate whit other estonians! so your “estonians use estonian for only business” point is pretty wrong! But since you may be russian, you see it slightly differently

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  2. el Avatar
    el

    Regarding Russia, have you seen воспоминания Путиной?

    http://butavka.livejournal.com/1546891.html

    Но все это Людмила Путина воспринимает как должное: “Есть же известная фраза: не хвали женщину, чтобы ее не испортить. Так что Владимир Владимирович меня всегда тренировал, держал, так сказать, в тонусе”.

    Думаю, что, если Владимир Владимирович — а время у него еще есть — так же строго и требовательно будет относиться к своим подчиненным, как к Людмиле Александровне, у нас еще есть шанс стать гражданами идеальной страны.

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      What a disgusting freakazoid Putin is, jeez. But what the hell did she expect, marrying a KGB fellow?

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  3. el Avatar
    el

    Кто виноват
    http://starshinazapasa.livejournal.com/800716.html

    Начиная любую войну ты соглашаешься с тем, что ты своей волей убьешь – обязательно! – какое-то количество непричастных к твоим играм людей.
    И ответственность за все эти случайные удары и ошибки всегда лежит на одной только стороне.
    На той, которая начала войну.

    Using this logic, Israel says that the responsibility for (mistakingly) killed Gazan civilians lies on Hamas’s shoulders.

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      As I said before, I do believe that it is crucial to see who started a conflict. However, any retaliation should be proportional in scope, at least somewhat. For instance, German troops committed horrible atrocities against the Soviet people, and the Soviet people were absolutely right in striking back and whooping their stupid asses. However, when the Soviet soldiers committed hundreds of thousands of rapes of German women, that was an unspeakable atrocity that was not in any way justified by what the Nazi troops had done.

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      1. el Avatar
        el

        Retaliation, rapes of women, etc. I think you are using wrong vocabulary to describe what is going on. Using your example, Soviet goal was to achieve German capitulation w/o any demands and they achieved it. Rapes were unnecessary and many of them happened after victory.

        Israeli goal is close to Soviet’s – weaken Hamas, demilitarize it via both military and then political pressure, ensure long period of quiet for Israeli citizens. To achieve this goal the operation was begun and will continue till our government thinks it’s time to stop. During WW2, numerous Germans died from carpet bombings of cities, for instance. Not in retaliation, but as an inescapable part of war, the latter being is “an unspeakable atrocity” in its essence. That’s what’s going on in Gaza. Not retaliation.

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        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          The whole thing started with retaliation, let’s not forget that. I don’t think it’s possible to discount the probability that retaliation is still going on, to an extent.

          I read Babchenko’s article and didn’t like it. There was no mistake. Terrorists were aiming to shoot down a plane, as they confessed. They were trying to shoot down a different plane, that’s true. But they were shooting at a plane.

          I also detest this whole Putin is the only person responsible. Putin is nothing. Just like Hitler would have been nothing without the millions who worshipped him. The tragedy is precisely that it isn’t just Putin. Millions of people in Russia are applauding the invasion. They are to blame, every single one of them.

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  4. el Avatar
    el

    RE Gaza’s demilitarization, I read this sceptical person:

    Can Netanyahu really demilitarize the Strip without making Hamas a partner?
    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/22/the_end_game_in_gaza_netanyahu_hamas

    If he is right, wouldn’t destroying Hamas be the right thing to do? Many Israeli soldiers and Gazans would die, but it would stop those cycles of mutual bloodshed, instead of continuing till … When? May be, when Israel does exactly that, but after suffering needless losses during years of pointless war.

    After all, part of Palestinians live in PA, which Israel isn’t bombing now. And live much better than Gazans, w/o shooting endless rockets at us. Some people offer exactly that: destroy Hamas despite huge Israeli losses and then have Abu Mazen responsible over Gaza too. Then, one could talk about improving Gazans lives and negotiations. Many in Israel are against this plan because of the human cost of Israeli soldiers. However, if I reasoned correctly so far, why isn’t it the right way? Our PM wants to weaken Hamas and probably destroy it, but prefers to do it in slower fashion, w/o losing world’s support. Or, he thinks things change fast in the ME & (as he said) “give land and see Islamists [radical Islam] come to power”. Thus, wants only stand in one place as long as possible.

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      Good article. I am afraid, however, that everybody – and I mean absolutely everybody, Israel, Hamas, the US, Russia, Western Europe, everybody – are interested and invested in the conflict continuing into the foreseeable future.

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