Why Not Ban History?

This is what happens when you allow a bunch of Scott Walkers to make decisions:

Oklahoma legislative committee overwhelmingly voted to ban Advanced Placement U.S. History class, persuaded by the argument that it only teaches students “what is bad about America.” Other lawmakers are seeking a court ruling that would effectively prohibit the teaching of all AP courses in public schools.

What an absolute disgrace that this should be happening, people. This is a story straight out of Putin ‘ s Russia. Is that the example we want to emulate.

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50 responses to “Why Not Ban History?”

valter07

February 18, 2015

—This is a story straight out of Putin ‘ s Russia. Is that the example we want to emulate.

In fact I think it is another way around – Putin’s Russia has been emulating the worst there is in the US for a long time. Remember the discussions on a certain Russian forum? Those arguments advanced by social conservatives – “but this is the way it is in your America” – meaning someone from the Tea Party, or perhaps Pat Robertson said or did something like that…

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Clarissa

February 18, 2015

Putin as a Tea Partier is an inventive idea. 🙂

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1. valter07
  
  February 18, 2015
  
  Credit for this idea goes to Pat Buchanan
  
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  1. Z
    
    February 18, 2015
    
    Wow!
    
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    1. valter07
      
      February 18, 2015
      
      http://townhall.com/columnists/patbuchanan/2013/12/17/is-putin-one-of-us-n1764094/page/full
      
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      1. Clarissa
        
        February 18, 2015
        
        Wow, thanks. I will print it out and start handing it out to Putin-loving Liberals.
        
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      2. Z
        
        February 18, 2015
        
        Wild, valter07. Thanks for the link.
        
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      3. Z
        
        February 18, 2015
        
        And there is this, which I have not listened to yet, someone sent it to me: http://seansrussiablog.org/2015/02/12/podcast-war-donbas-mr-putin/
        
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      4. Z
        
        February 18, 2015
        
        This also has just been sent to me for comment. https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/sean-guillory/review-mr-putin-%E2%80%93-operative-in-kremlin
        
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        Clarissa
        
        February 18, 2015
        
        I’m wary of fixating on Putin as if he really mattered. He’s only doing what the overwhelming majority of Russians wants him to do. That’s the real tragedy. He tried other things before and they weren’t very successful. So now he’s trying this and it is. We’re he to drop dead tonight, that would change nothing. 😦
        
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        Z
        
        February 19, 2015
        
        Hmmm… bad. Meanwhile here is another, also just sent. http://www.defenseone.com/threats/2015/02/american-education-vladimir-putin/105387/?oref=d-river
        
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        Clarissa
        
        February 19, 2015
        
        “So Putin is right: Washington shouldn’t “mirror-image” him, and U.S. leaders shouldn’t assume that he will interpret events and words as they might.”
        
        Exactly.
        
        “As European leaders continue to consider how to deal with Russia’s aggression, the ICC investigation of Russian war crimes should be at the top of the agenda.”
        
        True. If there is anything that can help Russia crawl out of this hole, it’s this.
        
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        Z
        
        February 19, 2015
        
        And the EU is terrified and appears to believe they can pacify by caving on Ukraine.
        
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J. Otto Pohl

February 18, 2015

The Central Asian states pretty much banned history when the USSR broke apart.

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Clarissa

February 18, 2015

What a great example to follow. 🙂

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Shakti

February 18, 2015

“America is the land of puppies and kittens and scratch and sniff stickers where leprecauns and unicorns frolic in exploding rainbows, timeless and full of Muzak. It is the Candy Crush world come to life. ”
“What happened in World War II?”
“A balloon race, which we won!”
“Hooray!”
“Now write a 5 page essay filled with typos and plagiarism about the balloon race’s causes and turn it in next week.”
“But I wanted to hear about the great Shopkin Olympics!” cries

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David P. Bellamy

February 18, 2015

I don’t like the concept of advanced placement courses, honors courses, nor anything that segregates the best students from the average students. We did not have them when I was in school, and since I was the sort of student who would have been put into such courses, I had time to pursue my own academic interests, reading widely in science, literature, etc. I would not have had time to do this if I had been directed into courses which were more difficult and took up all my time.

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Clarissa

February 18, 2015
“I don’t like the concept of advanced placement courses, honors courses, nor anything that segregates the best students from the average students. ”
- Why?? People have different interests. Why not let those who want to acquire a more profound specialization in a specific field just do that? AP course and Honors courses are, in my opinion, the best thing about this country’s secondary education. Is anybody forced into them against their will?
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Shakti

February 18, 2015

The overwhelming majority of students, gifted and otherwise, are NOT self directed.
Gifted students are not well served by dumping them into classes with average students. They “act” out because they’re trying to keep themselves awake while they are dying from boredom. Gifted students tend not to learn study skills if course material is too easy for them.

I’ve seen very intelligent people who are taking gifted courses, and very intelligent people who were just dumped in regular courses. The people in gifted courses thrived. The people who weren’t challenged ended up stunted.

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1. Clarissa
  
  February 18, 2015
  “Gifted students are not well served by dumping them into classes with average students. They “act” out because they’re trying to keep themselves awake while they are dying from boredom. Gifted students tend not to learn study skills if course material is too easy for them.”
  
  Exactly.
  
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2. David P. Bellamy
  
  February 18, 2015
  
  “The overwhelming majority of students, gifted and otherwise, are NOT self directed.”
  
  This is not true. The only students who are not self-directed are those who have always been directed by outside pressure and so have never learned to be self-directed. I have seen it so many times: A student who was brilliant in high school because of constant parental pressure to study fails in college. Those who were allowed freedom to study or not study, at their own volition, are the ones who are successful.
  
  If this were not true, our species would have died out millenia ago.
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    February 18, 2015
    
    Cancelling AP courses will not remove the problem of overbearing parents.
    
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    1. David P. Bellamy
      
      February 18, 2015
      
      “Cancelling AP courses will not remove the problem of overbearing parents.”
      
      It helps. It means that the schools are not collaborating with the overbearing parents.
      
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      1. Clarissa
        
        February 18, 2015
        
        “It means that the schools are not collaborating with the overbearing parents.”
        
        How so? Is anybody forcing people into AP courses against their will? If not, then I don’t see the problem.
        
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        David P. Bellamy
        
        February 19, 2015
        
        “How so? Is anybody forcing people into AP courses against their will? If not, then I don’t see the problem.”
        
        Yes, parents often force their children into AP courses for the prestige value. The existence of AP courses also provides a convenient excuse to further water down the mainline courses.
        
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        Clarissa
        
        February 19, 2015
        
        “Yes, parents often force their children into AP courses for the prestige value.”
        
        If the AP courses are not there, the parents will just find something else to control these kids. The problem does not lie in the AP. It lies in the parents.
        
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      2. Shakti
        
        February 19, 2015
        
        Yes, parents often force their children into AP courses for the prestige value. The existence of AP courses also provides a convenient excuse to further water down the mainline courses.
        
        I’ve never known anyone or anyone’s parents to push AP courses for prestige. They want the college credit that comes with a high score on an AP exam. If you can take enough AP courses and get high enough scores on the exams, you can test out of a lot of distribution requirements. It makes those students more attractive to colleges and for scholarships. This translates to saving money and time. And in this case, there’s no indication that the Oklahoma legislative committee is going to make the mainline courses “more rigorous.” Also if you lump everyone in a class, they gear it toward the average students, not the top of the class and not the bottom. This does not make the courses “more rigorous.”
        
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        Clarissa
        
        February 19, 2015
        
        “Also if you lump everyone in a class, they gear it toward the average students, not the top of the class and not the bottom. This does not make the courses “more rigorous.””
        
        I agree. Many people develop specific interests quite early in life. And if they want to explore these interests, why not? I’m just not seeing the downside.
        
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  2. Shakti
    
    February 18, 2015
    
    The only students who are not self-directed are those who have always been directed by outside pressure and so have never learned to be self-directed.
    And this describes so many many students. Haven’t you noticed this is some kind of generational complaint? Further, look at the vast failure of online courses which assumes academic preparedness and self directed learning in adults. Most kids don’t decide on their own to read textbooks and challenging books widely and for fun. Most adults don’t either. In many schools, like charter schools, reading whatever the heck you wanted during class time would result in disciplinary action.
    
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    1. Clarissa
      
      February 18, 2015
      
      “Haven’t you noticed this is some kind of generational complaint?”
      
      It is. Parents are not very busy and not very fulfilled, so they see their children as a battlefield.
      
      Most people find it incredibly hard to work on their own. This is why telecommuting and online learning are failing so badly. I work from home 6 days a week this semester, and it’s a daily struggle. It’s very very hard.
      
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djiril

February 18, 2015

So the implication is that the less advanced courses teach a happier version of American history? Why?

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Clarissa

February 18, 2015

They regular courses are very primitive and superficial. Just to give an example, compare the “in 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue” version that most students some to me with and an understanding of Columbus’s journey that is based on the reading of his diaries and the writings of the conquistadors who followed him that we get in my course on Hispanic Civilization. These are the same events but I go much deeper than the childish “rah rah go Columbus” version.

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1. djiril
  
  February 18, 2015
  
  Well, that’s good to know. My high school history education was kind of the opposite of this, and I was never in any AP classes. One of my history teachers was voted “Most Likely to Make the FBI’s Most Wanted List” in the yearbook.
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    February 18, 2015
    
    “One of my history teachers was voted “Most Likely to Make the FBI’s Most Wanted List” in the yearbook.”
    
    Hilarious! 🙂 I know I would have enjoyed those classes.
    
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2. David P. Bellamy
  
  February 19, 2015
  
  “They regular courses are very primitive and superficial. Just to give an example, compare the “in 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue” version…”
  
  This is pretty much the way my history courses were throughout my pre-college experience. We had history beginning in fifth grade, topped off with a required U. S. History course required of all seniors in high school.
  
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Shakti

February 19, 2015

Regular courses expect students to read one textbook for facts and dates and then regurgitate that on exams.
More advanced courses will have more than one book and some with primary sources, even. When you get to college you get to know the exciting news that historians disagree about events and have different interpretations and even what most historians agree about can change over time.

“Happier” translates to “more conservative and right wing” which translates to “simpler.”
The regular history class I had my junior in high school was b-o-r-i-n-g as it asked nothing of me beyond reading the textbook.

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1. Clarissa
  
  February 19, 2015
  
  I didn’t go to an American high school, obviously, but my experience supports what Shakti is saying.
  
  It is absolutely true that it’s a revelation for the students that different history books propose different readings of events. I wish this were introduced earlier.
  And then we are debating whether a president of the country needs to have a college education. Imagine a president who never even heard that there might be different readings of history.
  
  I’m seeing students fresh out of high school all the time. And I’m not trying to be mean when I say they are not ready for the modern workplace. And it’s not the fault of the school. The world us changing, that’s all.
  
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  1. el
    
    February 19, 2015
    
    \ It is absolutely true that it’s a revelation for the students that different history books propose different readings of events. I wish this were introduced earlier.
    
    In Israeli schools one only reads one history textbook too. In post-SSSR Ukraine, I also had only one textbook with one version of history. Of course, the textbooks in both countries promote patriotism and don’t say “we did wrong at …”.
    
    Are there any countries, where school students are taught about versions of history? I don’t talk about university courses taken by a tiny number, but about an average student.
    
    \ I’m seeing students fresh out of high school all the time. And I’m not trying to be mean when I say they are not ready for the modern workplace. And it’s not the fault of the school. The world us changing, that’s all.
    
    I think schools could try to do more, especially if you say some American students can’t send a respectful email and some even (amost) can’t read despite graduation. I remember you said something on the topic.
    
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2. cliff arroyo
  
  February 19, 2015
  
  My public US high school education was hardly what you’d call ….. distinguished but as I recall they did get across the idea that different scholars had and continued to have different interpretations of historical events (and English class did allow for some different interpretations of things we read as well).
  
  Has US education gotten that much worse?
  
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  1. cliff arroyo
    
    February 19, 2015
    
    And I’ll that this was hardly a liberal area, in 1968 my parents (in journalism) were recording local election results in the presidential election and were scared silly when early local results showed George Wallace having a healthy majority. It wasn’t until they saw national returns that they calmed down.
    
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cliff arroyo

February 19, 2015

Maybe high school students are different from when I went (while the last wooly mammoths were being hunted down).

When I was in high school there was a state-mandated course on “Americanism vs Communism”. When I took it about half the time the teacher was proselytizing for conservative Christianity and the other half was made up of cold war materials (mostly from the 50’s and 60’s I believe) on the Red Menace etc. It basically turned most of the class into socialists (for at least until the class ended).

Surely if they want to strengthen traditional patriotism they should force feed AP placement courses with “America is irredeemably evil and broken” content and stand back as the students gain research skills by wanting to prove the teachers wrong.

But then maybe millenials and whatever come after them are so passive and browbeaten by their obsessive parents that they would calmly accept whatever the teacher says.

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Clarissa

February 19, 2015

What I fond really curious in today’s students is the enormous capacity to take absolutely everything said and written as gospel truth that doesn’t allow for the slightest doubt or analysis. If Columbus said that the indigenous people had no religion and couldn’t speak, not a single student is likely to stop and wonder how that is even possible. They will just memorize and reproduce.

What’s scarier is the incapacity to see characters in works of fiction as characters and events in works of fiction as fictional. For them, whatever a character did happened in “reality” and whatever he said reflects “reality.” It’s next to impossible to break out of this extraordinary trust for everything said by somebody else and suggest that there is a possibility to approach texts critically.

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1. Clarissa
  
  February 19, 2015
  
  And of course, any suggestion that texts should be read critically is greeted with “So are you saying he LIED?” So I get into endless explanations that everybody has their own perspective, things are more complex than that. But we get stuck in the moral indignation about “HE LIED!!!” and it’s very hard to move past that.
  
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  1. cliff arroyo
    
    February 19, 2015
    
    What you’re writing now is terrifying … and another good argument against homeschooling. How can a student learn independent thinking when the things presented as facts are from their parents? Most homeschooling parents aren’t going to present differing viewpoints on most issues.
    
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    1. Clarissa
      
      February 19, 2015
      
      Exactly. The uncritical acceptance of everything is the biggest issue I have to battle. One would think that the teenage years are the time when you put everything in doubt, accept no authority, rebel against accepted wisdom but it isn’t really true these days. I want to be challenged in the classroom and not just accepted as a deity who knows THE truth.
      
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2. Shakti
  
  February 19, 2015
  
  I would direct you again to this article and the kinds of discipline students are expected to have and then ask 1)what time would these kids have to analyze or doubt anything in class 2) when they are constantly taught to the tests and the tests determine whether you advance or not, 3)whether any doubting or questioning would be tolerated in class and 4)how likely students would shake off that behavior once they get to college.
  
  At my local high public school, you needed a hall pass to be out in the halls. At a private high school, it was considered an extraordinary freedom for a kid to leave school grounds if they had a free period.
  
  Contrast this with:
  Getting up from your chair to go to the bathroom without explicit permission, for example, or not having your hands folded on your desk, or not looking at the teacher every minute, or not having your feet firmly planted on each side of the center of the desk are problematic behaviors. Because if you don’t conform to these rules then you are going to precipitate the next domino and the next domino. It’s going to have a cascading effect on your behavior and pretty soon you’re going to be very disruptive. If you get up to sharpen your pencil, maybe you’re going to throw your pencil at someone. Or if you get up and get something out of your backpack that you forgot, maybe you’re going to elbow another student on your way back to your seat, or make eye contact with them and divert them from looking at the teacher.
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    February 19, 2015
    
    “At my local high public school, you needed a hall pass to be out in the halls. At a private high school, it was considered an extraordinary freedom for a kid to leave school grounds if they had a free period.”
    
    Jesus. What can I say? This is insane, that’s all.
    
    “Getting up from your chair to go to the bathroom without explicit permission, for example, or not having your hands folded on your desk, or not looking at the teacher every minute, or not having your feet firmly planted on each side of the center of the desk are problematic behaviors. Because if you don’t conform to these rules then you are going to precipitate the next domino and the next domino. It’s going to have a cascading effect on your behavior and pretty soon you’re going to be very disruptive. If you get up to sharpen your pencil, maybe you’re going to throw your pencil at someone. Or if you get up and get something out of your backpack that you forgot, maybe you’re going to elbow another student on your way back to your seat, or make eye contact with them and divert them from looking at the teacher.”
    
    Now I’m understanding why my students keep asking for my permission to go to the bathroom. Every time it happens, it freaks me out. What are we, a jail? What this quote describes is a prison environment. This is just nuts.
    
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    1. Shakti
      
      February 19, 2015
      
      @Clarissa
      Keep in mind when I’m talking about my local high school and that private school, I’m talking about many, many years ago in the past. My local high school is an affluent school district that people move to specifically for the schools.
      
      The quote is about charter schools now. By the way, how many of your students went to charter schools?
      
      Throw in disproportionate disciplining of minority children from preschool, and you get to understand some behaviors.
      
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      1. Clarissa
        
        February 19, 2015
        
        “By the way, how many of your students went to charter schools?”
        
        I have no idea. I make a point of not asking who went to a charter, who was homeschooled, etc. because I don’t want to be accused of being biased or persecuting people.
        
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        Shakti
        
        February 19, 2015
        
        I have no idea. I make a point of not asking who went to a charter, who was homeschooled, etc. because I don’t want to be accused of being biased or persecuting people.
        
        You could do an anonymous survey on schooling, but I see why even that might be a problem.
        
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