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Netanyahu Is a Hitler Apologist

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Clarissa

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October 21, 2015

We all know I dislike Benjamin Netanyahu but not even in my most suspicious moments did I expect him to be a Holocaust denier and an apologist for Hitler:

Benjamin Netanyahu sparked public uproar when on Wednesday he claimed that the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, was the one who planted the idea of the extermination of European Jewry in Adolf Hitler’s mind. The Nazi ruler, Netanyahu said, had no intention of killing the Jews, but only to expel them.

The Arab hatred that is such a huge part of Netanyahu ‘ s propaganda machine has warped his mind to the point where he actually makes excuses for Hitler.

I didn’t think I’d live to see the day when a Jew would say that Hitler never really wanted to exterminate Jews. I’m floored.

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83 responses to “Netanyahu Is a Hitler Apologist”

danmillerinpanama

October 21, 2015

A video of PM Netanyahu’s remarks is posted here. An article noting the efforts of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and placing PM Netanyahu’s remarks in their intended context, is available here. The context is that the Grand Mufti

was among the first to claim that the Jews wanted to destroy al-Aksa mosque.

Netanyahu did not say that the Mufti convinced Hitler to annihilate the Jews.

It is simply true that as the destruction of European Jewry evolved from 1933 until 1945 the Nazis tried different approaches to solving the “Jewish problem.”

. . . .

But what matters in 2015 is this:

(1) The claim that the Jews want to change the status quo on the Temple Mount dates back at least to the Mufti’s days.

(2) The fierce criticism by dovish Jewish journalists, pundits, and politicians (and of course the foreign media and the Arabs) of Netanyahu is intended to undermine his not-so-subtle implication that Arab intentions then and now are much the same.

That is the crux of the issue.

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1. Clarissa
  
  October 21, 2015
  
  I’m sure the Mufti was an idiot of massive proportion. But that’s not an excuse to absolve Hitler of the responsibility for the Holocaust. No matter how politically expedient it might be for some minor squabble of today, Holocaust should not be used in this way.
  
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Stringer Bell

October 21, 2015

I was gonna post ‘In before Netanyahu’s apologists start justifying his hideous speech’ but I was late, it seems.

DanmillerPanamaHat wins this round!

On a tangential note, don’t know where I read this but it rings true to me. Israel is becoming to the US as North Korea is to China: an embarrassing client state forcing its benefactor to defend and justify its every outlandish speech and action.

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1. Clarissa
  
  October 21, 2015
  
  Not that there was much to lose, but now Netanyahu has lost it completely. I don’t even know what to say because after going in this direction, where won’t he go?
  
  When I was about 5, I made a joking reference to somebody being “as thin as a Buchenwald victim.” My Jewish grandmother was very visibly shaken by this and gave me a very stern talk on how monstrous it is to use the Holocaust as a figure of speech. And if I managed to get the point at five, then Netanyahu should have done it by now.
  
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  1. Stringer Bell
    
    October 21, 2015
    
    It is a source of great embarrassment for me to note that the word ‘Hitler’ is bandied around in India like it’s nothing. Daytime soap operas where some mean mother-in-law is referred to as Hitler. MPs calling each other Hitler in political debates on TV.
    
    That word is considered a milder form of ‘asshole’, would you believe that?
    
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    1. Clarissa
      
      October 21, 2015
      
      And when a Jew does it, that’s just beyond anything I could ever understand. This just goes to show what this sort of relentless propaganda does to people in Israel. They lose track of reality, and that’s very sad.
      
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  2. Michael Blekhman
    
    October 21, 2015
    
    Your grandmother was a very clever woman! I know that for sure! 🙂
    
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Shakti

October 21, 2015

I…what?
That’s a new twist on Godwin’s Law.

Are Israelis that jaded he needs to say something like this to make a point? Serious question.

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1. Clarissa
  
  October 21, 2015
  
  I think he got caught up in his own propaganda and lost touch with reality. It seems he doesn’t even fully realize how these things sound, and then somebody tells him and he begins to backtrack.
  
  In Israel, there is this extremely powerful propaganda machine that’s warping people’s minds in scary ways.
  
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  1. el
    
    October 21, 2015
    
    \ In Israel, there is this extremely powerful propaganda machine that’s warping people’s minds in scary ways.
    
    I think propaganda only works because of not imagined terrorist acts. One journalist called the current wave of terror – a civil war. Since many (would be) murderers are Israeli citizens, often from Jerusalem.
    
    In this evening’s breaking news – “5 Israelis wounded, 1 critically in continued violence. 1 terrorist shot dead, 1critically wounded, another apprehended; 15 year old armed with knife shot.” Before that (today) a terrorist critically wounded a female soldier, and was shot to death by another female soldier. (A day before?) yesterday – 2 terrorists at central bus station – one with a gun and one with a knife. An Eritrean was mistakenly identified as a terrorist and killed by security. Here is an opinion column:
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4714059,00.html
    
    Btw, this is ridiculous:
    
    After last-minute changes, however, the resolution approved by UNESCO’s executive board dropped a potentially more controversial clause laying claim to Jerusalem’s Western Wall as a holy site for Muslims only, Israeli diplomats said.
    That clause, which was proposed by several Muslim countries and would have stated that the Western Wall was an integral part of the al-Aqsa mosque compound, vanished after it was condemned by the Israeli government and Jews worldwide, and disowned as dangerous by UNESCO’s own director general, Irina Bokova.
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4714533,00.html
    
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    1. Clarissa
      
      October 21, 2015
      
      “I think propaganda only works because of not imagined terrorist acts.”
      
      Propaganda works because it is based on refined techniques of manipulating the human psyche. The extent to which reality corresponds to the ideas transmitted by propaganda is irrelevant. Russians believe that Putin raised oil prices, which is obviously entirely divorced from reality.
      
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    2. Clarissa
      
      October 21, 2015
      
      “5 Israelis wounded, 1 critically in continued violence. 1 terrorist shot dead, 1critically wounded, another apprehended; 15 year old armed with knife shot.”
      
      This is horrible but evoking the Holocaust and absolving Hitler of responsibility will not make it better. Netanyahu is using this tragedy to keep people terrorized and enraged which will result in more violence.
      
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  2. danmillerinpanama
    
    October 21, 2015
    
    Here’s a link to an article you might find interesting. It includes Nuremberg trial testimony of a senior Nazi officer on the impact of the Grand Mufti’s efforts to have Jews killed rather than banished from Germany.
    
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    1. Dreidel
      
      October 21, 2015
      
      Excellent link, @danmillerinpanama, but do you really expect historical evidence to compete with emotion in any discussion about Hitler and the Jews? Or for that matter, about Netanyahu?
      
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      1. Clarissa
        
        October 21, 2015
        
        Yes, it makes total sense to listen to what war criminals guilty of genocide say to justify themselves. I’m sure they all speak truth, the whole truth, etc.
        
        Are we going to believe Putin too when he says he never invaded Ukraine? I mean, if that’s what he says, it’s got to be crucial historical evidence. We can’t get too emotional and suspect the fellow of lying.
        
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        Dreidel
        
        October 21, 2015
        
        Even Putin doesn’t lie all the time. You think Putin isn’t telling the truth when he says that Obama’s foreign policy against ISIS has been a total failure?
        
        You can’t discount unpleasant historical details (if they really are unpleasant, rather than relatively minor details in a much broader picture) just because you don’t like one of the sources, when there is other historical evidence to back the details up.
        
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        Clarissa
        
        October 21, 2015
        
        Historical evidence that Hitler killed Jews because some mufti told him to? Seriously?
        
        This is again the feudal mentality I’ve been talking about. You can be a passionate supporter of Israel yet accept that Netanyahu said something egregiously stupid. But no, people need to worship a deity in human form.
        
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        Dreidel
        
        October 21, 2015
        
        “Historical evidence that Hitler killed Jews because some mufti told him to?”
        
        NO ONE is seriously making that specific argument. (Netanyahu is stupidly suggesting it for propaganda purposes, so what?)
        
        The evidence is clear that Hitler used the mufti’s considerable help in exterminating the Jews, but the fact that they worked together doesn’t mean that Hitler actually changed his plan of action because of anything the mufti said.
        
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        The Dark Avenger
        
        October 21, 2015
        
        Except for what a historian of the Holocaust has to say about it:
        
        While the Nazis’ official endorsement of the Final Solution came months after the meeting, historians note that the Nazis’ mass killing of Jews was already well underway.
        
        Several concentration camps were up and running, and Hitler had previously repeatedly declared his lethal intentions for the Jews. If anything, they said it was the Nazis who were trying to use al-Husseini for their own propaganda interests and that Hitler didn’t need any outside inspiration. When Hitler did consider deporting Jews, it was in the context of sending them to countries like Ukraine and Lithuania where they would face persecution or death.
        
        Moshe Zimmermann, a prominent Holocaust and anti-Semitism researcher at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, said Netanyahu made a “far-reaching argument” that didn’t hold up.
        
        “Any attempt to deflect the burden from Hitler to others is a form of Holocaust denial,” he told The Associated Press. “It cheapens the Holocaust.”
        
        http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/universal-outrage-greets-netanyahu-s-hitler-apologism
        
        Do you find being gullible is something you have to work on, or does it come naturally?
        
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        Clarissa
        
        October 22, 2015
        
        That’s exactly what I’m saying. Denying any aspect of the Holocaust constitutes Holocaust denialism. Very few denialists deny it outright. These days, people mostly deny parts of it. Like in, “yes, the slaughter of Jews was real but only 600,000 were killed,” etc.
        
        Out of the various forms of denialism, this is one of the most stupid ones. To imagine that Hitler would take orders from an Arab is every kind of crazy. But it’s not a new form of denialism. Another similar version I’ve heard is that Hitler only killed Jews because a powerful Jewish organization blackmailed him into doing it.
        
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        Clarissa
        
        October 22, 2015
        
        And the Stalin denialism looks exactly the same. I haven’t heard the version of “Arabs made him do it” but I’ve heard variations on “Jews made him do it dozens of times.
        
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        Dreidel
        
        October 21, 2015
        
        “Do you find being gullible is something you have to work on, or does it come naturally?”
        
        Ah, more childish insults from an indignant commenter. Thin-skinned people are so entertaining. 🙂
        
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    2. danmillerinpanama
      
      October 22, 2015
      
      Here’s another link.Of course, it’s “stupid” and mere propaganda because it doesn’t fit the meme.
      
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      1. Clarissa
        
        October 22, 2015
        
        The history of the Holocaust is not “a meme.” For some of us, it’s a deeply tragic time in history that has impacted our families and is still a burden that we carry every day.
        
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        danmillerinpanama
        
        October 22, 2015
        
        No, the holocaust is not a meme. But why what happened happened seems to have become one here.
        
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        Clarissa
        
        October 22, 2015
        
        Where is this “here”? The history of the Holocaust has been studied at length by historians. The origins of Nazism have been studied as well. There is no need to invent the wheel here.
        
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        danmillerinpanama
        
        October 22, 2015
        
        “Here” is right here, at your blog.
        
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2. el
  
  October 21, 2015
  
  \ Are Israelis that jaded he needs to say something like this to make a point?
  
  What do you mean by jaded?
  
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  1. Shakti
    
    October 21, 2015
    
    No matter how true it is that you’re constantly threatened, and how many time you are reminded, after a while, it just doesn’t have the same impact. So, Netenyahu thinks, why not evoke the Holocaust so people don’t forget how terrible those Palestinians are?
    
    There’s no denying the mufti was a huge anti-Semite and did side with the Germans in WWII, but it seems REALLY over determined to think that Hitler wouldn’t have started the Holocaust otherwise or gave much weight to anything this dude said.
    
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el

October 21, 2015

Netanyahu denies absolving Hitler for Holocaust, says mufti ‘wanted Jews dead’
[…]
Netanyahu said that the reason some researchers and others offer “apologetics” for al-Husseini is clear.

“My aim was not to absolve Hitler from the responsibility he bears, but to show that the father of the Palestinian nation at the time, without a state and before the ‘occupation,’ without the territories and with the settlements, even then aspired with systemic incitement for the destruction of the Jews,” Netanyahu said.

Unfortunately, Netanyahu added, the mufti continues to be an admired personality in Palestinian society, and is depicted in textbooks as the father of the Palestinian nation. “And the incitement that began with him, incitement to kill Jews, continues.”
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Netanyahu-denies-absolving-Hitler-for-Holocaust-says-mufti-wanted-Jews-dead-428619

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1. Stringer Bell
  
  October 21, 2015
  
  Frantic backpaddling commences.
  
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  1. Dreidel
    
    October 21, 2015
    
    The word is “backpedal,” not “backpaddle” (!), and the backpedaling should be coming from commentators delusional enough to compare a Western democracy like Israel to a brutal, crazed dictatorship like North Korea.
    
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    1. Stringer Bell
      
      October 21, 2015
      
      back·ped·al
      ˈbakˌpedl/Submit
      verb
      move the pedals of a bicycle backward in order to brake.
      move hastily backward.
      “backpedaling furiously, he flipped a perfect pass”
      reverse one’s previous action or opinion.
      “you’ve criticized him for backpedaling on budget reform”
      synonyms: change one’s mind, backtrack, back down, climb down, (do an) about-face, reverse course, do a U-turn, renege, go back (on), back out (of), fail to honor something, withdraw, default (on)
      “they agreed to the peace initiative, but soon after they backpedaled”
      
      You’ve been embarrassed before on your views on the English language. But will you listen?
      
      ‘Western democracy’ lol. Keep telling yourself that as you enthusiastically support that butcher.
      
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      1. Stringer Bell
        
        October 21, 2015
        
        Oops, I did make that typo. Never mind.
        
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      2. Dreidel
        
        October 21, 2015
        
        Excuse me, but YOU’RE the one who embarrassed himself by using the incorrect pseudo-word “backpaddling.”
        
        Your own list of synonyms for the correct word “backpedal” — “change one’s mind, backtrack, back down, climb down, (do an) about-face, reverse course” — proves MY point, not yours.
        
        Like I said, delusional. (And I DO have a medical degree in psychiatry.) 🙂
        
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        Stringer Bell
        
        October 21, 2015
        
        Congratulations on being correct for once on this blog. 🙂
        
        Blog readers: Please form an orderly queue to witness this goddamned miracle.
        
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2. Clarissa
  
  October 21, 2015
  
  Just as I said, first he comes up with these things and then has to come up with weird ways of denying that his comments were what they were. Actually, the habitual flat-out denial of one’s own very recent actions or words is a sign of a pathological personality.
  
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  1. Stringer Bell
    
    October 21, 2015
    
    Knowing how to measure their words to produce desired effects is the one thing politicians do so well. This was not some throwaway remark that was not intended for public consumption. A hot mic didn’t pick this up when he was having a beer with his buddies.
    
    This was a prepared speech.
    
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    1. Clarissa
      
      October 21, 2015
      
      I think it’s pretty clear that Netanyahu wants to escalate the situation. It’s like he can’t rest until everything explodes. This is shameful, shameful.
      
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      1. Dreidel
        
        October 21, 2015
        
        “I think it’s pretty clear that Netanyahu wants to escalate the situation.”
        
        Actually, Netanyahu is being very restrained while Palestinians are butchering Israeli civilians on a daily basis, clearly egged on by Hamas leaders.
        
        Hard-liners in certain factions of the Israeli government would like Netanyahu to END the 67-year-old terrorist problem once and for all by re-entering Gaza, exterminating all Hamas leaders, annexing as much of the disputed territories as necessary to give Israel permanent, defensive borders, and expelling the Palestinians into the arms of their fellow Arabs in Jordan and Egypt, similar to the expulsion of Jews from Transjordan after 1948. (This would work militarily, but politically the world wouldn’t tolerate such decisive action.)
        
        Netanyahu is justifiably very angry, but he definitely isn’t overreacting.
        
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        Clarissa
        
        October 21, 2015
        
        Terrorists are horrible, vile criminals. And I just managed to say this without trying to absolve Hitler or even mentioning him at all.
        
        Right now in Ukraine I’m seeing a leader who is really trying to deescalate and bring peace and that’s a clear example of how this could be done. Netanyahu, however, prefers to learn from Putin and not from Poroshenko. And that’s a bad choice.
        
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        Dreidel
        
        October 21, 2015
        
        I respect Poroshenko for doing what he has to, but he’s acting from a position of weakness, after Merkel, Hollande, and Obama have shamefully abandoned his country to totalitarian might.
        
        You can’t compare Netanyahu to Putin when the rats gnawing endlessly at Israel’s heels are the ones picking the fight.
        
        His mentioning Hitler was politically stupid — Israel should have stopped mentioning the Holocaust as an excuse for anything decades ago — but it’s the Palestinians trying to provoke a major conflict.
        
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        Clarissa
        
        October 21, 2015
        
        There can be any number of excuses but the reality is that Netanyahu is escalating, just like Hamas is escalating. And the reason is that Netanyahu has nothing else to offer his voters. He doesn’t know how to solve the country’s problems, so he drowns them out with the sound of saber-rattling. And it’s exactly the same for Hamas. The two are identical while the people are suffering.
        
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        Dreidel
        
        October 21, 2015
        
        Gee, Clarissa, when I become the first commenter on your website to earn a hundred “thumbs down” compliments, do I win a free toaster? 🙂
        
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        The Dark Avenger
        
        October 22, 2015
        
        My question above has been answered. Thanks!
        
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tombers

October 21, 2015

amazing, isn’t it?

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jeff

October 21, 2015

Yeah, cause Hitler was so likely to take orders from a guy named Haj Amin al-Husseini. That’s such a convincing story Bibi came up with this time.

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1. Clarissa
  
  October 21, 2015
  
  Exactly. The next stage in the story will be that al-Husseini made Hitler kill Jews entirely against his will. Then we will all sit down and pity poor little Hitler who was so under the thumb of the horrible al-Husseini. Forget the Jews, let’s feel bad for Hitler who was the real victim here.
  
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  1. Stringer Bell
    
    October 21, 2015
    
    I, for one, cannot wait to see the ADL take Netanyahu to task over this. 😀
    
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  2. Clarissa
    
    October 21, 2015
    
    “According to Netanyahu, Hitler then asked: “What should I do with them?”
    
    It’s like he spat in our collective faces with this story. Netanyahu needs to be thinking that his audience is composed of absolute idiots who will swallow this ridiculous narrative.
    
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Stringer Bell

October 21, 2015

“This is again the feudal mentality I’ve been talking about. You can be a passionate supporter of Israel yet accept that Netanyahu said something egregiously stupid. But no, people need to worship a deity in human form.”

There is nothing these idiots won’t defend. They just won’t let go. Justifications upon justifications. ‘Unpleasant historical details..’ god, just listen to yourself for once, Dreidel.

“..really expect historical evidence to compete with emotion (emphasis mine)”

said, without irony, by the most hysterical reactionary on this blog. 😀

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1. Dreidel
  
  October 21, 2015
  
  “god, just listen to yourself for once, Dreidel.”
  
  I listen to myself all the time, and I hear very sage advice.
  
  Give my regards to your fiancee. 🙂
  
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  1. Stringer Bell
    
    October 21, 2015
    
    Ha, I will, thanks. Though that word seems too precious. It’s going to be a straight transition from girlfriend/boyfriend to wife/husband for us. None of that fiancee malarkey.
    
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    1. Dreidel
      
      October 21, 2015
      
      Skipping the engagement phase is an excellent idea, but why not skip the wedding as well? That extreme stage doesn’t seem to be necessary for many successful couples nowadays (at least not in the U.S., can’t speak for India).
      
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Stringer Bell

October 22, 2015

“But why what happened happened seems to have become one here.”

Explain to us, you fucking dum-dum, how the holocaust has become a ‘meme’ here. Do you even know what the word means?

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1. danmillerinpanama
  
  October 22, 2015
  
  I don’t usually bother to respond to comments with foul language, but I’ll make an exception, just for you.
  
  Yes, I know what “meme” means. The meme here (this blog) appears to be that PM Netanyahu is inciting violence and distorting history to do so while Palestinian leaders are not.
  
  Here is a link to an article you might find enlightening.
  
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  1. Stringer Bell
    
    October 22, 2015
    
    Listen all you holocaust scholars, don’t get too emotional, don’t give in to the hype. Danmillerpanamahat is here with a hot take on why you’re wrong.
    
    And while you’re at it, take a look at the writing on his blog too, which reads like rants of a insane man locked in a padded room who nevertheless found the ingenuity to scribble the walls with his own feces and then paid someone to transcribe those ramblings on to his blog.
    
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    1. Dreidel
      
      October 22, 2015
      
      Gee, Stringer Bell, do we detect an anger manager problem here???
      
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      1. Clarissa
        
        October 22, 2015
        
        Mentioning anybody else’s anger when I’m around is hurtful. What, like I don’t sound angry enough any more? Huh? HUH???
        
        I’m so angry I just freaked out an innocent, kind receptionist because of how terrifying I am. (I now feel guilty because that was never my purpose.)
        
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    2. danmillerinpanama
      
      October 22, 2015
      
      Thanks for promoting my blog. Here’s a link.
      
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el

October 23, 2015

I am surprised only 53% disagree (may be, they think he said something else from what you described?):

Survey finds 53% of Israelis disagree with Netanyahu’s version of Holocaust history

Neo-Nazi website lauds Israeli PM’s Holocaust claim as ‘completely factual’

A poll commissioned by Israel’s Knesset Channel found that 53% of Israelis disagreed with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s claim that the idea for the extermination of the Jews came from the then-Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini.

According to Israeli news site Ynet the survey published on Thursday and carried out by the Panels Politics polling institute revealed that 26% of respondents said that they agreed with Netanyahu’s theory regarding the Nazi leader and Husseini.

The poll also asked respondents if they felt that Netanyahu’s claim diminished Hitler’s responsibility for the Holocaust – 37% accepted the claim and 53% rejected it. The sample size and margins of error for the poll were not publicized.

The survey also addressed levels of public satisfaction with the way that Netanyahu is handling the current security crisis – 72% were not satisfied, and 28% were satisfied. Netanyahu also did not fare well in the survey when respondents were asked who they would like to see in charge of security in Israel – 22% responded Avigdor Lieberman, 18% Naftali Bennett, 12% Moshe (Bogie) Ya’alon, 11% Netanyahu, 6% Yair Lapid, 3% Tzipi Livni and 1% answered Isaac Herzog.

Neo-Nazi support for PM’s speech
Benjamin Netanyahu’s speech on Tuesday seems to be gaining him fans in new quarters. Neo-Nazi website The Daily Stormer described the Israeli leader’s comments as “completely factual.”
http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/society/89897-151022-only-53-of-israelis-disagree-with-netanyahu-s-version-of-holocaust-history

My explanation: Avigdor Lieberman and Naftali Bennett present themselves as much more Right wing than Netanyahu. Even if (OR especially if) you think Netanyahu is bad, you would want Netanyahu, not one of those two.

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1. Clarissa
  
  October 23, 2015
  “Benjamin Netanyahu’s speech on Tuesday seems to be gaining him fans in new quarters. Neo-Nazi website The Daily Stormer described the Israeli leader’s comments as “completely factual.””
  
  Of course. This has been the dream of neo-Nazis for a very long time. And now they can say, well, the Jews themselves said that the Holocaust was nothing but a brawl between two groups of Semitic people. We, the Aryans, have nothing to do with these animals slaughtering each other.
  
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  1. el
    
    October 23, 2015
    
    I don’t care what neo-Nazi think or say. They are going to want to kill me, no matter what my PM says or doesn’t say. I am not angry at Netanyahu for providing ammunition to neo-Nazis.
    
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    1. Clarissa
      
      October 23, 2015
      
      “They are going to want to kill me, no matter what my PM says or doesn’t say. I am not angry at Netanyahu for providing ammunition to neo-Nazis.”
      
      I like the “MY PM” bit. Yes, who cares about Holocaust denialism, the neo-Nazism, anything at all as long as the deified figure of “MY PM” remains unblemished. He is, in the end, the only thing that stands between me and the immediate violent death. This is the purest essence of nationalism. And it’s precisely why the Russians are supporting Putin with such an abandon.
      
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      1. el
        
        October 23, 2015
        
        \ I like the “MY PM” bit. Yes, who cares about Holocaust denialism, the neo-Nazism, anything at all as long as the deified figure of “MY PM” remains unblemished.
        
        I wrote “my PM” since his name is long and I didn’t want to write it twice. Also, he is “a PM of my country.” Is this OK? You care about Ukraine, and I care about Israel while considering myself both a patriot and a thinking person.
        
        He isn’t unblemished in my eyes at all, but I honestly don’t see better candidates to vote for.
        
        As for Holocaust denialism and neo-Nazism, again, I am not going to blame any Jews for those. Those haters are going to hate anyway, and blaming Jews for those is what antisemites are doing.
        
        \ He is, in the end, the only thing that stands between me and the immediate violent death.
        
        You are wrong. IDF does that. 🙂
        
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el

October 23, 2015

I thought people were smarter. Do you see now that “Jews are smart” is an untrue stereotype? Jews abroad may try to succeed harder on average, but so do other immigrant groups, like Asians in USA. In natural environment of being a majority in one’s nation state, people are not so smart en masse. Jews or not Jews. It’s not Ashkenazi vs Spharadi as you described before. Not something unique about Jewish culture since Asians seem to have it too.

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1. Clarissa
  
  October 23, 2015
  “In natural environment of being a majority in one’s nation state, people are not so smart en masse. Jews or not Jews.”
  
  I don’t want to believe that but it seems that it’s true. Which must mean that the erosion of the nation-state and the increased forced mobility of many people will bring out a lot of brilliance. That’s the good news in this situation.
  
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  1. el
    
    October 23, 2015
    
    \ I don’t want to believe that but it seems that it’s true.
    
    I do think it’s true. It’s a bit like failed children of rich parents you wrote about. Here, being rich = from childhood finding a comfortable, safe place in the mainstream (political) culture, ideology, etc. Being inside rather than on the sidelines makes going (=thinking) against the current harder and more costy. One has to make a bigger effort in order to lose more and become less happy, so why make it?
    
    \ Which must mean that the erosion of the nation-state and the increased forced mobility of many people will bring out a lot of brilliance.
    
    So nobody will feel comfortable anywhere, everybody will be an outsider, thus the brilliance. Only I am not sure how “everybody is an outsider” may work. I think it may go another way too. What about all places becoming the same (except some hellholes) and hardly anybody feeling an outsider? After all, if everybody moves, we’re all in the same boat.
    
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    1. Clarissa
      
      October 23, 2015
      
      “So nobody will feel comfortable anywhere, everybody will be an outsider, thus the brilliance.”
      
      Any acquisition of knowledge comes through discomfort, that’s true. In my own life, I have adopted the principle of “the moment I create a truly comfortable, safe place, I need to get up and leave because hence lies intellectual and spiritual stagnation.”
      
      “Being inside rather than on the sidelines makes going (=thinking) against the current harder and more costy.”
      
      Yes, growth is harder than stagnation.
      
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el

October 23, 2015

Last comment for now: haven’t you yourself agreed once that people care about the past / history only as much as it can be used for (nation state building) purposes in the present? Why would treatment of Holocaust memory be different from treatment of all other horrible wars and tragical events?

I don’t want to excuse anything here, only trying to analyze something purely intellectually, without feelings.

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1. Clarissa
  
  October 23, 2015
  
  Holocaust is not just any event in history. It’s a profound multi-generational trauma. Usually people react in a very intense way when their trauma is retold and exploited.
  
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el

October 23, 2015

\ Usually people react in a very intense way when their trauma is retold and exploited.

They are themselves retelling and exploiting it, making it part of the narrative (suiting the present hateful Arabs and helpful Germany, not the past) of “Arabs have always hated Jews and wanted to kill them, even before foundation of the state.” To be fair, leaving Holocaust manipulation aside, factually the narrative is much more right than wrong.

\ Holocaust is not just any event in history. It’s a profound multi-generational trauma. Usually people react in a very intense way when their trauma is retold and exploited.

WW2 is also “not just any event in history,” but it is exploited in FSU.

Regarding Jews and Holocaust, I want to do something sacrilegious and challenge its unique position. I read once something that rang true: after leaving religion, many American Jews accepted Holocaust as a central part of Jewish identity, while Israeli Jews, living in a nation state of their own and being in a continuous war to protect it, have many other things too, except religion and Holocaust.

To an Israeli Jew, whose relatives died or were injured in Israeli wars, operations and terror attacks, those wars are going to feel much more real and traumatic than Holocaust in Europe. Uri wrote well about the perception of Holocaust in a column I linked once – about small children learning about Pharaoh ordering to kill Jews in Exodus, about Holocaust in Europe, about Israeli wars. Small children don’t really get the concepts of time and history yet OR distinguish between historical facts and Exodus’s myths. Everything becomes a part of “they want to kill us.” I don’t see why Holocaust should be the most traumatic part or even the part that stands out.

Speaking personally, my grandparents lived during WW2 and suffered from losing relatives. My mother already hasn’t known any killed / murdered (both as soldiers in war and as civilians who were shot) relatives personally. I don’t know who all of them were at all and am not sure how multi-generational trauma works here. Except feeling uncomfortable / ashamed at the thought of visiting Germany or even liking songs in German. Though some Israelis do visit the country. Don’t think it’s because I am an especially horrible person without proper feelings. Often “I feel the most about …” is used for political purposes and the kind of patriotism you said you were ashamed to witness.

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1. Clarissa
  
  October 23, 2015
  “Everything becomes a part of “they want to kill us.” I don’t see why Holocaust should be the most traumatic part or even the part that stands out.”
  
  You are full of bad news today. 🙂 That is horrible, what can I say?
  
  I still can’t get over the visit to the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin back in 2012. It was a very intense experience but only because I didn’t let anybody steal from me the capacity to get in touch with the trauma. The trauma itself is there, in every Jew, but not everyone has been allowed to preserve the capacity to access it. It’s like this person who I know who has a bouquet of eating disorders that obviously date back to Holodomor, yet refuses to accept that Holodomor even happened.
  
  “I read once something that rang true: after leaving religion, many American Jews accepted Holocaust as a central part of Jewish identity, while Israeli Jews, living in a nation state of their own and being in a continuous war to protect it, have many other things too, except religion and Holocaust.”
  
  Oh Lordy. Yes, it’s definitely time to let the nation-state go.
  
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  1. el
    
    October 23, 2015
    
    \ The trauma itself is there, in every Jew, but not everyone has been allowed to preserve the capacity to access it.
    
    “The trauma itself is there, in every Jew” — I think it’s something that people tend to take on faith. And, again, in case of Israeli AND not-Israeli Jews, Holocaust may be a part of general “they want to kill us” trauma of centuries of hatred and current antisemitism. It doesn’t have to stand out (at least, as much as people sometimes assume) psychologically.
    
    Allowed by whom? How does it work? I am honestly curious. May be, you could write a post about historical traumas, capacities, etc?
    
    \ while Israeli Jews, living in a nation state of their own and being in a continuous war to protect it, have many other things too, except religion and Holocaust.”
    — Oh Lordy. Yes, it’s definitely time to let the nation-state go.
    
    I don’t understand how “Oh Lordy” follows from what I said. Do you think this claim about American vs Israeli Jews is wrong? Or are wars so horrible that Jews should become (almost) the only people w/o a nation state to prevent them, while nation states still are and will be extremely important in the future? (You yourself said the latter.)
    
    Btw, had Israel existed, there would be no Holocaust and antisemitism is still alive and well. In some European cities with large Muslim population Jews are becoming afraid again. At least, in Israel I have an army and a government whose goal is to care for my Jewish interests, not for interests of Swedes, who would want to blame me for any Jewish/Muslim conflicts since Muslims frighten the Swedish majority more than Jews.
    
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    1. Clarissa
      
      October 23, 2015
      
      “I don’t understand how “Oh Lordy” follows from what I said. Do you think this claim about American vs Israeli Jews is wrong?”
      
      Who needs the memory of the Holocaust now that we have something better? What reaction can you expect to this? Applause? 🙂 It’s horrible. Again, it’s just like what the Russians did with Stalinism. They said, “Oh, forget that boring thing, let’s move on to more important issues.” The results are obvious to everybody.
      
      “Btw, had Israel existed, there would be no Holocaust”
      
      I think we’ve had just about enough Holocaust denialism in this thread. Maybe it’s time to stop. But wow, it took less than a hundred years to get Jews themselves to start denying it and busily erasing the memory. All I can say is that I’m enormously saddened by all this.
      
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el

October 23, 2015

I will comment with something that definitely is NOT Holocaust denialism:

\ Again, it’s just like what the Russians did with Stalinism. They said, “Oh, forget that boring thing, let’s move on to more important issues.” The results are obvious to everybody.

It’s not “just like” at all. In Russia, people keep quiet about Stalinism and Stalin is “an effective manager” in history school books, etc.

In Israel, Holocaust is THE central part of high school history lessons. Soon numerous high school students are going to Poland to learn and see the camps. Holocaust Day is every year. Look here:

New Holocaust education program in Israel to start in kindergarten […] Kindergarten teachers will advise and consult with parents on how to best explain to children Holocaust Remembrance Day and the siren that goes off throughout the country. […] “We visited some kindergartens and found that children actually do know a lot more than we thought about the Holocaust. They are just unaware of how to put it into context, and if you don’t talk to them about it their fears can grow.”
http://www.jpost.com/National-News/New-Holocaust-education-program-in-Israel-to-start-in-kindergarten-350335

The problem is not forgetting Holocaust happened. It is how and what for its memory is used in the present.

Jews in Israel are not forgetting. My previous comments tried to analyze the situation beyond the mainstream Israeli “We will never forget.”

And, leaving the topic of denialism, I would be grateful if you could write about capacity to access traumas or not, how society (?) influences the matter.

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Stringer Bell

October 23, 2015

“Btw, had Israel existed, there would be no Holocaust”

Jesus Christ. All that you read, where does it all go? Do you have the capacity to synthesize knowledge? Why do you have to draw the dumbest conclusions from the information the world has to give you?

You are sick.

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1. el
  
  October 23, 2015
  
  \ “Btw, had Israel existed, there would be no Holocaust”
  
  My claim was not factual, but sprang from feelings. Clarissa, I never meant to do Holocaust denial by that and should have said something different, that I do really believe:
  
  When people have a nation state, it’s much harder to kill them than otherwise. Especially if would-be killers know their supposed victims may have nuclear weapons.
  
  Is it OK?
  
  \ Why do you have to draw the dumbest conclusions from the information the world has to give you? You are sick.
  
  SB, I do know one thing. No country will put interests of another people first, if they aren’t ready to protect themselves.
  
  My grandfather, who chose to join WW2 at 16, hid he was a Jew during all his service out of fear. There were cases of Jews being killed by anti-Nazi partizans or even by their own comrades-in-arms. Soviets didn’t want to stress Nazis were killing Jews specifically and after war talked about “Soviet citizens” not “Jews.”
  
  Just before WW2, no country was ready to take German Jews in.
  
  During WW2, American politicians voted against letting in even (only!) several hundred of Jewish children, leaving them to die in Europe. I linked to it here, but it was long ago.
  
  That’s why I believe a nation state is a necessity.
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    October 23, 2015
    
    “When people have a nation state, it’s much harder to kill them than otherwise. Especially if would-be killers know their supposed victims may have nuclear weapons.”
    
    “If she stayed at home instead of going outside, she wouldn’t have been raped. I’m not blaming her or anything but it’s undeniable that if she stayed home with her door securely shut, like all good girls do, the rapist wouldn’t have come across her.”
    
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2. Clarissa
  
  October 23, 2015
  
  “Jesus Christ. All that you read, where does it all go? Do you have the capacity to synthesize knowledge?”
  
  This is all a result of the brainwashing that people are subjected to in Israel. I’m telling you, when I hear what people come up with after living there for a few years, my hair stands on end.
  
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Shakti

October 23, 2015

“Everything becomes a part of “they want to kill us.” I don’t see why Holocaust should be the most traumatic part or even the part that stands out.”
My theory:

Even though the Holocaust might be part of a long chain of “they all want to kill us” it strikes a huge chord not only because of the extent, but also because it happened to people who are already sensitized to a long chain of “they all want to kill us”.

It’s also important to note that the Holocaust is within living memory. (first paragraph). There are still people who are Holocaust survivors on this earth and people who directly know or knew people who are Holocaust survivors/victims/escapees still on this earth. For example, one of my exes had a grandfather who escaped from Austria in 1938 and only died a couple of years ago at the age of 104.

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Dreidel

October 23, 2015

“Btw, had Israel existed [during the Nazi era], there would be no Holocaust.”

@el
I have to disagree with the premise of this wishful statement.

In this fantasy scenario, the Jews living in the nation-state of Israel would probably have been safe from the Nazis, because of a combination of their geographical distance from Europe, and the nation’s ability to fight back militarily if attacked.

But there would still have been millions of Jews living in Europe at the time. (Why would they have left before there was a known threat? Most of them would surely have preferred to stay in their European homelands rather than migrate to a Middle Eastern desert country.)

Thus, the Jews in Europe would still have been within Hitler’s grasp, and tiny Israel could have done nothing to save them — and tragically, the Holocaust would still have occurred.

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1. Clarissa
  
  October 23, 2015
  
  “But there would still have been millions of Jews living in Europe at the time.”
  
  Exactly. There is a mass grave of Jews murdered by the Nazis next to the city where I grew up. The existence of Israel obviously would have done nothing for them.
  
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A conservative literary critic and college professor

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