Thug

There is a debate going on in Russia as to whether in his youth Putin was a thug.

Putin claims he was definitely a thug but his detractors accuse him of lying and insist he wasn’t as thuggish as he says he was.

The revelations about his 13 palaces, the prostitutes he ships in by an airplaneful, a private plane runway that cost a cool billion, etc did nothing to lower Putin’s prestige. But if the voters find out that he might have actually been a good boy in his teenage years, that will be a stain on his reputation.

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50 responses to “Thug”

Alex

October 31, 2015

What word are they using for “thug” in Russian?

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Clarissa

October 31, 2015

gopnik

Not to be confused with the Canadian journalist with the same last name.

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Dreidel

October 31, 2015

In Russian usage, how does the word gopnik” differ from “hooligan” (which is actually an English word that nobody but the Russian English press uses nowadays?

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el

October 31, 2015

Dreidel, I thought “hooligan” was a Russian word. Did it enter Russian from English?

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1. Dreidel
  
  October 31, 2015
  
  @el
  According to Google, “hooligan” is an English word that MAY may have originated from the surname of a fictional rowdy Irish family in a music hall song of the 189os. But I don’t believe the Brits use it much (or at all) today.
  
  The only time I ever see the word is in English-language Russian press releases. Perhaps the word has been incorporated into the Russian language with a phonic Cyrillic alphabet spelling.
  
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  1. cliff arroyo
    
    October 31, 2015
    
    AFAIK ‘hooligan’ is used on British mostly in the context of unruly/violent soccer fans (as in “football hooligans”)
    
    The word is still used in Polish spelled chuligan (ch is halfway between h and ch in German Bach) and even has a place in the criminal code (mostly vandalism and/or very petty crime).
    
    The British meaning is taken up by the horrible sounding pseudokibice (pseudo-fans).
    
    It’s used informally about themselves by rowdy though not very violent soccer fans (then often abbreviated and respelled hool or hools).
    
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2. J. Otto Pohl
  
  October 31, 2015
  
  Hooligan was taken from English by the Russians. It supposedly originated as a reference to a particular Irish family noted for drunken violence and vandalism. Although unlike the USSR and Russia, hooliganism was never a specific legal offense in the UK. Rather it was a generic description of bad behavior, particular by the Irish at first. Later on it became more generic. Just as thug originated as a reference to murderous cult in India (see my post lower on down).
  
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Clarissa

October 31, 2015

Gopnik is worse. Hooligan is somebody who got drunk after a football game and broke a window. Gopnik is somebody who exists on the fringes of a criminal gang. He’s not a serious criminal but might know some serious criminals.

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1. Clarissa
  
  October 31, 2015
  
  Plus, hooligans don’t have a uniform while gopniks do. They all wear blue Adidas sports pants with a white stripe on the side.
  
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2. cliff arroyo
  
  October 31, 2015
  
  Gopnik sounds more like ‘punk’ before the mid 1970s. I don’t know what’s taken it’s place.
  Thug to me sounds more like a low level member of a criminal gang and/or hired muscle (others may disagree).
  
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  1. Dreidel
    
    October 31, 2015
    
    The word “thug” has now been banished from some college campuses as a non-PC “microaggression” term, because after last year’s riots in Ferguson, Missouri, the word is somehow considered a racial slur toward black people.
    
    (Sounds ridiculous, but I’m not making that up!)
    
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    1. cliff arroyo
      
      October 31, 2015
      
      I could never live down the shame of committing a “microagression”, for me it’s all in or nothing.
      
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      1. Clarissa
        
        October 31, 2015
        
        I just read an article about Halloween costumes of samurais or Pocahontas being banned on campuses because they constitute cultural appropriation.
        
        This is crazy like all hell. I’d be happy and honored if somebody wanted to put on a Ukrainian national costume for Halloween.
        
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cliff arroyo

October 31, 2015

Where’d you find that picture, it’s great!

I’d call those guys ‘low lifes’ instead of thugs though.

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Clarissa

October 31, 2015

It’s from a Russian blog where I found one of the discussions about Putin being a gopnik or not. The author is a famous Russian cartoonist: http://vasya-lozhkin.ru/gallery/tags/vodka/

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1. Clarissa
  
  October 31, 2015
  
  His name is Vasya Lozhkin.
  
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Evelina Anville

October 31, 2015

“the word [thug] is somehow considered a racial slur toward black people. (Sounds ridiculous, but I’m not making that up!)”

In what world is that ridiculous? Clarissa is not using “thug” to describe black people so her example is different of course. But in common American discourse, “thug” is used almost exclusively to describe black people, and even more offensively, used to justify the execution of unarmed black citizens. Seriously: do a search for usage of the term “thug” in the United States over the past two years. It has become a marginally more polite version of the word “n—-r”. I honestly shudder whenever I hear the word “thug” and know that a horribly racist statement is almost inevitably coming.

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Dreidel

October 31, 2015

You and I live in two different Americas. I’ve heard the word “thug” used all my long life, and almost inevitably applied to lowlifes who were white.

Type “define thug” on Google, and you’ll get a dozen different online dictionaries, NONE of which even mentions a racial component as a secondary definition.

On MSNBC last week, television host Melissa Harris-Perry actually objected to the phrase “hard work” because it reminded her of images of slavery!

At this stage of my life, I have no intention of relearning my native language because a ridiculous number of common words have now somehow become “offensive.”

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1. Clarissa
  
  October 31, 2015
  
  When I come to visit people for the first time, they often exclaim, “Here, I bought some vodka for you!” or “I’m sorry, I forgot to get some vodka!” While with anybody else this would be an innocuous statement, for a Russian-speaker it’s offensive because it relies on the stereotype of all Russian-speakers being alcoholics.
  
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cliff arroyo

October 31, 2015

“in common American discourse, “thug” is used almost exclusively to describe black people”

I don’t, and if younger Americans do then certainly it’s due to its ‘bragging’ use in hip hop. I’m out of the loop on current use but about 20 years ago a bunch of gangster rappers were using the word about themselves. Why is that offensive now?

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1. Clarissa
  
  October 31, 2015
  “I’m out of the loop on current use but about 20 years ago a bunch of gangster rappers were using the word about themselves. Why is that offensive now?”
  
  I once exclaimed a propos of some routine gaffe of mine, “God, I’m such an idiot!”
  
  “Yes, you are an idiot,” a Russian friend of my mother’s calmly responded. She wasn’t trying to offend but, for her, the difference between what people say about themselves and what it’s OK to say about them is non-existent.
  
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  1. cliff arroyo
    
    October 31, 2015
    
    So… no one is supposed to use the word ‘thug’ about anyone because some people think it’s a slur against blacks? I do not follow the logic there.
    
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Evelina Anville

October 31, 2015

I understand that Cliff Arroyo doesn’t live in the United States anymore and that Dreidel is elderly. Still, I find it hard to believe that both seem completely unaware that the word thug is currently applied almost exclusively to young black men. It seems an almost deliberate refusal to notice what has become a very real–if not dangerous– slur.

I would say just about every single recent murder of a young black man has been justified by using the word thug: Michael Brown, Travon Martin, Christian Taylor. And notice I specified the past two years. The word “thug” is very very rarely used to describe white men anymore. Language changes– sometimes rapidly– and claiming that the word “thug” was used to describe white men in 1958 hardly excuses anything.

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J. Otto Pohl

October 31, 2015

Originally the word thug was used to describe Asian Indian men. Thugee (deceivers ) being a religious cult in India in the 1830s that killed some 30,000 people. The British then started using the word to describe any violent criminal.

http://www.unexplainedstuff.com/Secret-Societies/The-Thuggee.html

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1. Evelina Anville
  
  October 31, 2015
  
  Right but in October 2015, in the United States, the word “thug” is generally used as a slur to describe young black men and to suggest that they deserve to be executed without trial.
  
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  1. cliff arroyo
    
    October 31, 2015
    
    “the word “thug” is generally used as a slur to describe young black men ”
    
    So no one should use it in any other context? Why?
    
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    1. Clarissa
      
      October 31, 2015
      
      “So no one should use it in any other context? Why?”
      
      No, it’s the exact opposite. It’s OK to use it the way I did, to refer to Putin, etc. But if it’s applied to describe a black man, the meaning of the word changes. This was the whole point of my post, which I don’t think people noticed. If somebody refers to Obama as “a thug”, that’s obviously very offensive. But for Putin, it’s a compliment.
      
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      1. el
        
        October 31, 2015
        
        \ But if it’s applied to describe a black man, the meaning of the word changes.
        
        But the same thing is true for Pocahontas costume. Because of American history and the way Pocahontas’s story was presented for nation-building purposes, putting it on is different from an American putting on a Ukrainian national costume.
        
        Am not sure what the deal is with samurais.
        
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        Clarissa
        
        October 31, 2015
        
        “But the same thing is true for Pocahontas costume. Because of American history and the way Pocahontas’s story was presented for nation-building purposes, putting it on is different from an American putting on a Ukrainian national costume.”
        
        I’m not aware of what the story is (and I’m not very interested in finding out), so I can’t comment. Another costume that is off limits according to the article is Caitlyn Jenner. Mariachis are also out. As are karate outfits.
        
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Dreidel

October 31, 2015

“But if it’s applied to describe a black man, the meaning of the word changes.”

Actually, the meaning doesn’t change, no matter who it’s applied to. ALL that the word describes is the person’s behavior (brutish or violent) — it doesn’t imply race, ethnicity, nationality, or anything of the sort.

Calling Obama a thug would be offensive only because Obama doesn’t exhibit thuggish behavior; the fact that he’s black is irrelevant.

I understand that as time passes the connotations of some words slowly change. But the current race to outlaw an ever increasing number of innocuous phrases (“hard work,” “American” as an identifier of nationality, “idiot,” “founding fathers,” “fat,” “actress” because the term is dismiss of female actors, etc., etc.) is accomplishing nothing except dumbing down the English language, while it encourages people to self-identify as delicate, persecuted victims.

This trend reminds me of the call for “trigger warnings” for all college courses, but that’s a discussion for another day.

“Am not sure what the deal is with samurais.”

The deal is, a non-Asian isn’t supposed to wear a Hallowe’en costume suggestive of anything Asian, because that would be “mocking, demeaning, stealing from, appropriating,” etc. from that culture. Get it? I don’t, either!

If a kid dresses up like a doctor or a cop, is that demeaning medicine and police work?

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Dreidel

October 31, 2015

“I understand…that Dreidel is elderly.”

Oh, how hurtful! The word “elderly” has terrible, soul-crushing, horribly demeaning implications. Be a decent person and remove that word from your vocabulary. The politically correct term is “OLD.” Thank you!

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Clarissa

October 31, 2015
“The politically correct term is “OLD.” ”
- No, the really politically correct expression is “a senior citizen.” 🙂 Which sounds like a weird expression to me but who knows, maybe people do enjoy it. I’m just glad that nobody ever called me “a junior resident alien.” I love the “alien” part but I’d have a problem with “junior.”
P.S. “Resident alien” is my official status in the US, in case people don’t know.

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1. Dreidel
  
  October 31, 2015
  
  I personally dislike the term “senior citizen,” because it sounds like such a contrived, artificial construct that someone thought would avoid sounding demeaning toward older people.
  
  It’s like the expression “65 years young”: If a young person says, “Grandpa is 65 years young,” that young person is being condescending. If grandpa says, “I’m 65 years old,” Gramps has an age complex.
  
  The world OLD has been around forever. It’s accurate and to the point, and it suits me just fine. 🙂
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    October 31, 2015
    
    Thank you for saying this. I also hate the saccharine “x years young.” Bleh. It’s a great thing to grow old. Because the only way not to grow old is to die.
    
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    1. el
      
      October 31, 2015
      
      As a non-native English speaker, “x years young” sounds weird. When I studied English, I learnt “x years old” as an expression, w/o thinking about the meaning of the word “old” as a separate word in this case. If people are so sensitive, why not say “he is x” without adding either “years old” or “years young,” the way it’s done in Russian and Hebrew?
      
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      1. Clarissa
        
        October 31, 2015
        
        Exactly. I hate this pretentiousness of “x years young.”
        
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      2. Dreidel
        
        October 31, 2015
        
        English and German are both considered West Germanic languages, and the Germans would say,”Ich bin 65 Jahre alt” — never anything as silly as “Jahre jung.”
        
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        Clarissa
        
        October 31, 2015
        
        Just give it some time, the American PC movement will teach Germans how to speak a PC version of the language.
        
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October 31, 2015

\ Mariachis are also out. As are karate outfits.

With so many costumes being out, the safest and easiest solution is not to dress up at all. Who wants to read a long list of instructions in order to choose a costume OR get into trouble?

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Clarissa

October 31, 2015
“With so many costumes being out, the safest and easiest solution is not to dress up at all.”
- People are advised to dress up as themselves. So if I dress up in a national Ukrainian costume (and carry around a genetic test to prove that I am Ukrainian, to make absolutely certain that I’m not appropriating), that must be fine.
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1. Dreidel
  
  October 31, 2015
  
  “People are advised to dress up as themselves.” By WHOM??
  
  Hallowe’en is supposed to be a fantasy, but your outfit isn’t a costume if it’s who you really are! If a dentist wore his dental clothes to a party, it wouldn’t be in the spirit of events at all.
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    October 31, 2015
    
    Back when I was a student, a friend of mine dressed like the Arab – Israeli conflict. That was the best costume ever. I’m not sure it would have been allowed today.
    
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    1. Dreidel
      
      October 31, 2015
      
      “a friend of mine dressed like the Arab – Israeli conflict.”
      
      He (she?) dressed like both sides in a single costume??? How did your friend manage that?
      
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      1. el
        
        October 31, 2015
        
        \ He (she?) dressed like both sides in a single costume??? How did your friend manage that?
        
        I think a left half is Jewish and a right half of body is Arab. Or the opposite.
        
        Another option: printing / sticking pictures of Arabs and Jews at war on clothes.
        
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        Dreidel
        
        October 31, 2015
        
        Clever maybe, but definitely not a good idea today. A costume like that could literally get you killed by angry partisans on either side!
        
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        Clarissa
        
        October 31, 2015
        
        He put on the IDF uniform, an Arafat scarf and strapped on a hand grenade model.
        
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      2. Dreidel
        
        October 31, 2015
        
        “He put on the IDF uniform, an Arafat scarf and strapped on a hand grenade model.”
        
        And he made it out of the party alive?? This must have been a LONG time ago!
        
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        Clarissa
        
        October 31, 2015
        
        It seems like it was just yesterday but my God, it was 9 years ago. Time flies.
        
        I dressed in my regular clothes but everybody at the party thought it was a costume of a 1950s woman. 🙂
        
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October 31, 2015

\ I’m not aware of what the story is (and I’m not very interested in finding out), so I can’t comment.

She was an Indian woman who married a white man and accepted Christianity. Here is a famous painting of her baptism. Note how light falls on her, but not on non-Christian Indians:

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Clarissa

October 31, 2015

A beautiful painting!

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