You know what is difficult to get used to? Not to refer to myself or to the baby in the third person when talking to her. For instance, not to say “Mommy is going to feed Klara” but instead “I’m going to feed you.”
This is like a weird third-person mode that switches on completely out of nowhere. It’s very bizarre.
Wait until your husband starts calling you “Mother” or “Mamma” in front of the baby — then it’ll really feel weird!
LikeLike
Yeah, especially I’m used to hearing him use the word “mother” to refer to his ogre of a mother. (Who, by the way, has not even offered congratulations so far. Russian people are often strange.)
LikeLike
Yeah, there’s also this almost irresistible compulsion to pitch your voice higher and more musically.
Do you switch to your first language as well?
LikeLike
I speak to her in her language which will be English. Although I also have Russian terms of endearment for her.
LikeLike
It works that way with pets, too.
By the way, you are going to raise your child multilingual, aren’t you?
LikeLike
Children of immigrants have the language of the new country as their first language. Whether they have any interest in learning the parents’ language depends on the parents’ willingness not to bug them about it. 🙂
Russian speaking immigrants tend to be extremely obsessed with “preserving the language” for their children. As a result, the children never speak a word of Russian. 🙂
Not that I’d mind it if nobody ever spoke a word of Russian again anywhere. 🙂
LikeLike
“Not that I’d mind it if nobody ever spoke a word of Russian again anywhere. :-)”
So teach Klara Spanish instead. In twenty years she may need that language more than English, anyway.
LikeLike
Children of immigrants have the language of the new country as their first language. Whether they have any interest in learning the parents’ language depends on the parents’ willingness not to bug them about it
Thank you so much for this! My kids speak only English and everybody always gives me crap about it along the lines of: being multilingual develops the brain, you are ruining them, knowing two languages makes it easier to learn a third, they had such a great opportunity to be bilingual and you squashed it. Most of these people speak only English and I want to tell them to go eff themselves; also, if that’s so easy, why don’t they do it? The thing is, my husband and I are from a tiny country, we never go back to visit, there is nobody around who speaks the language, so why the f*** would we teach it to the kids? I’d much rather they speak Spanish or Mandarin, at least there are people around them who speak it. Also, plenty of people in the wold speak it. The nosy people also say, “But, they should learn the language to they would talk to grandparents!” To which I also say WTF? Language isn’t only speaking, it’s the schooling, it’s the grammar, writing, reading, literature, it’s the puns, the jokes, the idioms, the whole culture. And I am doing nothing for the sake of grandparents alone.
It’s virtually impossible to teach the kid a foreign language (we sort of tried with the first and it worked for a little, as long as there was a grandma there and before he strarted daycare, then quickly failed) unless you constantly enforce it at home, there are other kids around who speak it, there is Sunday school or daycare in the language, and you often go back to where it’s spoken for long periods of time. None of that is what we had for our kids.
Plus, honestly, I have always been panicked that my kids would somehow be deficient in the English-language department because husband and I are not native speakers (e.g., how will I ever be qualified to correct their essays?) It turns out they are more than fine.
Even my husband would have liked the kids to speak our language, even though he and I speak English to each other more than 90% of the time, it’s just easier, and we don’t want to be rude in front of the kids.
My father is the only person IRL who has been behind me 100% (he is a writer, by the way). He says language is deeply connected to one’s sense of self, of belonging. If you want the kid to be comfortable in America, to feel it as his own country, then you raise it to speak the language of the country and his own.
I wonder it all the concern trolls who scold me for not forcing my language on the kids actually want my kids to be ghettoized, disenfranchised, othered forever as not really American. Well, not on my watch.
(Sorry for writing a novel. As you can see, this is a hot-button issue for me. I am in vehement support of you raising Klara with English as her first language.)
LikeLike
I agree with you and your father completely. This is absolutely an identity issue. I’m a philologist, and I know how central language is to one’s sense of self. Children of immigrants want to fit in, be like their friends, feel normal. It’s absolutely healthy and great. So why should a parent stand in the way of that and try to complicate a child’s life needlessly? Would that really come from love or from a need to control and project oneself onto the child?
As for speaking several languages, I’m all for it, if that’s what people want. But what’s the hurry? I started learning Spanish when I was almost 23, and I’m perfectly fluent. Your kids have their entire lives to decide if they want to learn other languages. It’s so much more important that they are not forced into anything they don’t really need now.
LikeLike
As for speaking several languages, I’m all for it, if that’s what people want. But what’s the hurry?
YES! I have never understood this notion that you exit childhood and all hope for learning anything is forever lost. Or do people just think it unfathomably hard? Sure, learning a language may be easier when you are young, but a) so what, b) why would you force this “wonderful gift” on someone? If you have a lively, curious mind, you can learn things into old age.
This is a very interesting discussion. I had no idea people were this invested in other people’s children’s language skills. My parents are immigrants in America and I grew up hearing them speak a mix of their language and English. As a result, I learned both at exactly the same pace and time; if asked, I would say I was raised bilingual. My brother, who is older than me, and I only ever speak English to each other. I speak five languages fluently, three of which I learned between the ages of 8 and 25, but I only ever remember in English. I find the argument that bilingualism makes one adept at all languages quite silly. My brother, who had a much more authentically bilingual upbringing than me, is terrible at all languages; I, who always used English as my primary language and still consider it my ‘native’ tongue, have a great facility with languages. There is no magic bullet. I don’t think my parents consciously raised me bilingual (if they had, I assume they would have taught me to read and write their language, which they did not), but rather did what felt most natural and easiest, without really stressing out over it. It seemed to do the trick.
LikeLike
It is SO true that creating a huge drama over the issue, stressing and fretting only creates problems. Your parents were absolutely right.
LikeLike
And if you and N speak Russian together at home Klara will obviously be interested in at least understanding what you are saying.
LikeLike
To which I also say WTF? Language isn’t only speaking, it’s the schooling, it’s the grammar, writing, reading, literature, it’s the puns, the jokes, the idioms, the whole culture. And I am doing nothing for the sake of grandparents alone.
There’s a hell of a lot of schooling to acquire even one language everyone conveniently forget. My parents speak English fluently but they started learning in kindergarten and high school in what would be called total immersion. I can’t write in Kannada which isn’t surprising because I had no formal schooling whatsoever in that language. Most people who airily think bilingualism is easy would blanch at total immersion or double translation (used to teach Queen Elizabeth I!) as being way too hard.
I was exposed to French in some form through schooling from middle school and the year keeps coming back to me in French.
I wonder it all the concern trolls who scold me for not forcing my language on the kids actually want my kids to be ghettoized, disenfranchised, othered forever as not really American. Well, not on my watch.
This is only for immigrants and non whites. When you’re not an immigrant or what people visibly think of as an immigrant knowing three swear words and couple of characters counts as “fluent” and you’re some multilingual genius. 🙂
LikeLike
There is research on how parents speak to babies, there are things you do instinctively that help a baby to learn language, like elongating sounds. “Whoo is sooo cute? Baby is sooo cute!”
“Mommy is going to feed baby” is easier to understand than “I am going to feed you” because “I” and “you” often change in context. They are moving targets.
Here is an example:
Person A says, “Do you want cream in your coffee? I like mine black but I know not everyone does.”
Person B says, “Yes I would. It is nice of you to have me over.”
Now who is “you”? Person A calls Person B “you” and Person B calls Person A “you.” And who is “I”, they both call themselves “I.”
You know what you are doing even when you don’t think you are. That is why you automatically are using nouns, not pronouns.
LikeLike
What psychologists? This sounds a bit like nonsense to me.
LikeLike
Just as I predicted – people flip out and start getting aggressive.
Folks, do I make an impression of somebody who has any interest in your Mommy issues? Because if so, that’s all in your imagination.
I’m back from the hospital after a major abdominal surgery. Take the tantrums someplace else.
LikeLike
“Psychologists actually are deeply opposed to the third person in these contexts. Its use delays the creation of a sense of self. ”
Interesting, especially since in a number of (esp EAsian) languages third person reference (instead of first and second person) is extremely common in all contexts even for adults.
LikeLike
But then they are not distorting the language to infantilize the child. My issue with all this third person ness in English with kids is that it goes with a high pitched voice, fake baby talk, and general assumptions of mental retardation or God knows what other incapacities. I find it very mean and I wish people would not do it.
LikeLike
Exactly. My sister always spoke to her daughter exactly like she speaks to everybody else, without these infantilizing mannerisms. And she spoke to her non-stop, since birth. Now the girl is 6 and her language skills are phenomenal. Of course, she is an English-speaker.
LikeLike
My oldest is going to be ten tomorrow, and I still find myself using third person with him sometimes. It’s instinctual for me in parenting. That said, my kids are both very confident with high self-esteems and are generously loving. I don’t know… I think whatever you feel like doing is fine. I never thought I’d call my husband “daddy” or “Dad,” but it happens. A lot.
LikeLike
I think just talking with the baby however you instinctively feel you should is really fine. I read somewhere that the faces, high-pitched voices, and the silly words are all actually well received by babies, better than lower pitch or less expressive faces. I never thought about referring to myself in the third person, although I am sure I did, but probably not since my kids were little. Honestly, just talk with her however you feel is right; I wouldn’t worry about it too much.
LikeLike
I hated it, though. It may have something to do with the fact that one person who talked that way was my pediatrician who I am convinced was sexually abusive and who later tried to date my mother, at which point we finally got to switch doctors. But I hated it in general. My favorite speech was from college kid baby sitters who would speak completely normally, as if I were a total equal.
LikeLike
Dsiclaimer: You should talk to your baby however you want. I’m just throwing out some general ideas mostly for other readers.
My assumption is that if something seems to be strongly instinctual (like baby talk with babies) then it’s probably not harmful. In human ethological terms there seem to be a lot of universals in how adults interact with small infants (like the “play face” which signals non-aggression). That doesn’t mean there might not be better alternatives.
Language acquisition (first and second) is a field that is full of myths and accepted truths that seem to be based on very, very little. I once spent some time trying to track down an accepted truth regarding a particular aspect of acquisition (that gets repeated very, very often) and found that it rested on a single casual mention in an article about something else….
IME children seem to decide what languages in their environment to learn and use and parents ultimately have much less effect than do other children – the language of the playground will always trump everything else (which is why parents with non-native accents have kids with native accents).
Small children are not necessarily better language learners than adults – they’re better at accent (less inhibitions?) but worse at almost everything else. They seem better because they don’t have much else to do and can spend much more time at it than adults can.
I’m not sure what the current CW is, but it seems that simple exposure to other languages (the idea that other languages really do exist and there’s nothing wrong with them) at a very young age works as well as immersion in priming a child’s 2nd language acquisition capabilities.
LikeLike
I agree completely. Even kids whose parents create a 100% native language environment at home, discover that the moment the child begins to process of socialization with other kids, there is no way of making him or her go back to the parents’ language. I’ve seen so many Russian speaking immigrants fight this war with their 5 and 6 year olds and lose. It’s a ton of aggravation for absolutely no reason.
If she’s born here, she’s an American kid. It was my decision to emigrate and make any potential children of mine Americans. And now I should punish her for my decision to emigrate? That would be very bizarre.
Besides, I don’t even like the Russian language, don’t value the culture, so there’s not even a sentimental reason to do it. (Not that I would if there were).
LikeLike
“Not that I’d mind it if nobody ever spoke a word of Russian again anywhere”
An idle observation of mine is that strongly multi-lingual people (arbitrarily defined as those who use three or more languages on a daily basis) tend to be most neutral or even negligent about their first language. Not always, but it seems to work like that in over half the cases that I’ve known.
Exceptionally idle speculation. If were to have a child (excedingly unlikely) I wouldn’t care if it learned English if I were living in a non-English speaking country (beyond purely practical reasons). I would want the child’s first language to be the language of the country I was in and secondly I would try to give the child access to the sign language of that country (if it were at all feasible) as that seems to carry lots of communicative (and neurological?) benefits.
LikeLike
I think that the immigrants who are obsessed with making their children speak their language are the ones who have trouble fitting in and who want to create a connection with the children on the basis of a joint experience as outsiders. Not consciously, of course.
LikeLike
I think that the immigrants who are obsessed with making their children speak their language are the ones who have trouble fitting in and who want to create a connection with the children on the basis of a joint experience as outsiders.
BINGO!
LikeLike
“..are the ones who have trouble fitting in and who want to create a connection with the children on the basis of a joint experience as outsiders. ”
Gold, Jerry, Gold!
LikeLike
You want your daughter to call you Mommy, it is normal.
At least this is what I thought when I suprised myself using the third person with my son. My other theory was that there was an identity split between I and Papa.
LikeLike
I suspect it may have something to do with getting used to the identity, Mom. I found it more jarring than I anticipated, at many stages of my daughters’ development, to recognize myself as “Mom.” Saying to yourself, “Mommy is feeding Klara” may just be your way of easing into it.
LikeLike
My mother would say “I am going to feed you,” so if I wanted to be fed I would say, “Feed you?” Later on we discussed the strange interchangeability of I and you, and I got interested in grammar. I always disliked it when other people referred to me and themselves in the third person, found it very infantilizing, and I still hate it today when doctors and people like that say, “How are we?”
LikeLike
Interesting discussion, but it probably doesn’t matter how you talk to Klara, the important thing is that you do. Enjoy talking and singing to her, she’ll love it too. Before you know it she’ll be a bossy nine year old correcting your every utterance!
LikeLike
Well, as for singing, I made songs for her and sang them while she was in utero but N says my singing is do bad that the child doesn’t deserve the torture.
And he’s not exaggerating. 🙂
LikeLike
A conservative literary critic and college professor
Clarissa's Blog 
Leave a comment