Rape Victims and Child Support

An interesting post has been placed on ethecofem (which is a great blog that I highly recommend, by the way), and I want to address it here. Blogger Danny writes:

Kris Bucher is being held up for child support. However he says that he was raped by the mother of the child and should therefore not be held responsible for child support.

Alright we’ve seen cases before where under aged boys were held up for support of children they had with adult women. Or even worse sometimes said under aged boy’s parents would be held responsible to pay it (can you imagine being ordered by a court to pay child support to a woman that statutorily raped your son?). In this case though Kris is saying that the age difference is not the issue (and I’m inclined to agree since he was 17 and she was 18 at the time of conception) but rather that he said no to the sexual encounter that conceived the child.

As a quick reference I’ve laid out before that a woman can rape a man, so there is no need to try to question that. The hard part to think about is was he raped (he never pressed charges) and should he be held responsible for supporting a child that was conceived through rape?

I agree that a woman can rape a man, so for me, as for Danny, this is not something that needs to be questioned or discussed*. Now, my opinion on this issue is that such a person is, indeed, responsible for paying child support. I hope, of course, that every rape victim presses charges against the attacker and removes any possibility that a child would end up being raised by a criminal.

Child support, however, is not about either parent or the process of how they ended up being parents. It’s about ensuring that a child – a separate human being who never asked to be brought into this world and who in no way influenced the circumstances of his or her conception – has adequate means of support. It is the role of the justice system to defend the person who is the weakest and who cannot even speak for him or herself, namely, the child. A justice system that prefers to deprive a child from adequate means of existence in order to avoid being unfair towards an adult is no justice system at all.

The fact that a person was created during the commission of a crime in no way reduces that person’s need for food, clothing, medical care, and education. Imagine baby Anna and baby Jessica. Anna is a product of a passionate loving consensual sex act. Jessica is the product of rape (whether by a man or by a woman). Is Jessica going to eat less? Will she be less deserving of visiting a dentist? Should she have fewer toys than Anna? Can anybody reasonably argue that one of these kids should be punished because she has a criminal for a parent?

People seem to think way too often that child support is money that is given to the other parent instead of to the child. This way of thinking comes from their inability to see a child as a separate human being with rights of his or her own. What everybody needs to remember is that the moment a child comes out of a woman’s body and takes his or her first breath, s/he stops being a woman’s body part and becomes a person.

* Reader Christopher Marshall pointed out to me that the man went to the police 2 weeks after the incident and they refused to follow up on it. This is what we need to fight: the prejudice against men that positions them always as the perpetrators of violence and never as victims. Here is the real injustice in this case. A statement that a crime has been committed is dismissed by the authorities.

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437 comments on “Rape Victims and Child Support

  1. What about the rape victim’s rights? If you feel that the rape victim should have no choice as to whether to become a parent or not, you must oppose female rape victims getting abortions. Should Jessica’s life be cut short just because her father is a rapist? Or, should she get the same chance at life as Anna? Can you reasonably argue that Anna is more deserving of a chance at life than Jessica? Let’s be consistent and respect everyone, including male victims of rape as being human beings worthy of respect and basic human rights.

    • “Should Jessica’s life be cut short just because her father is a rapist? ”

      Jessica doesn’t have a life before she gets born. You can’t cut short the life of your body part, can you? Do you walk around naming your fingers or toes and deciding if they have rights? Of course, after Jessica actually is born, nobody should be allowed to take her life no matter who her parents are. Am I suggesting killing off rapists’ children anywhere?

      Please read my post carefully. It says explicitly that until a person is actually born they are simply their mother’s body part.

      • My purpose is not to argue for or against abortion. That law is well established. However, your argument is contradictory regarding the rights of a male rape victim vs a female rape victim and not founded in science regarding the fetus being merely a body part.

        Body parts (e.g. fingers, toes, ears, etc.) aren’t Homo Sapiens (aka Human) organisms, as are fetuses toddlers, and teenagers.

        “Jessica doesn’t have a life before she gets born.”

        What is the result of abortion on the fetus? Does it not die? How does death occur if there was no life? But, I’m not here to argue that, or to argue against abortion.

        So, to support part of your argument: why should Homo Sapiens fetus Jessica be denied the opportunity to grow into an adult Homo Sapiens but not Homo Sapiens fetus Anna? Why should one be treated worse than the other?

        Women have the 100% right to choose to become parents or not. However, with rights come responsibilities. The rape victim cannot compel her to abort or to become a parent; likewise, the female rapist must not be able to compel him to become a parent.

        If she exercises her right to become a parent, she must also accept the responsibility. If “Jessica” suffers by not being born or having a little less than Anna because she is a product of rape, blame her rapist mother.

      • You do understand that your argument has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of the post, right? Nothing you say has to do with rape. You are simply arguing that NO man whatsoever should pay child support on the basis that he had no role in deciding whether to abort or not.

        This is a position that is profoundly delusional in nature. Pregnancy takes place inside a woman’s body. Get over it.

        I’m in a very vile mood today, so I suggest that all complaints as to whose body a pregnancy occurs in should be addressed to God or Mother Nature. I don’t see why I should be bugged about it.

        I also repeat that a fetus is a woman’s body part. Anybody who disagrees can go join a group of vicious fundamentalists.
        Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

      • You evidently didn’t read my entire post, or did not take the time to comprehend it. Take a deep breath. . .

        “You do understand that your argument has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of the post, right?”

        I used the term “rape” six (6) times. How did you miss that?

        “You are simply arguing that NO man whatsoever should pay child support on the basis that he had no role in deciding whether to abort or not.”

        Nowhere did I say that “NO man whatsoever should pay child support.” Feel free to quote any such statement.

        Nor did I argue against abortion. Sorry you’re arguing with yourself on that issue.

        However, no rape victim (male or female) should be forced to relive the rape for the rest of their lives by, as you argue, being forced to parent the child of their rapist.

        It’s impossible to fathom someone being in favor of a rape victim being raped over and over again by their very same rapist. Incredible.

      • “Women have the 100% right to choose to become parents or not. However, with rights come responsibilities. The rape victim cannot compel her to abort or to become a parent; likewise, the female rapist must not be able to compel him to become a parent.

        If she exercises her right to become a parent, she must also accept the responsibility. If “Jessica” suffers by not being born or having a little less than Anna because she is a product of rape, blame her rapist mother.”

        I totally agree with this part, but abortion is not an argument.

      • So, to play advocatus diaboli here, female rape victims are free to get abortions, after all, it’s only a fetus.

        Should a male rape victim have the right to force the female rapist to get an abortion? Equal rights and all, right?

      • So, technically you could make it law that all pregnancies based off of a rape (eg: female raping a male) must be aborted; Tough one here though considering you don’t have much time to go through a trial..

    • My sentiments exactly, and I couldn’t have said it better. This is my first time reading this blog so I can’t speak for it overall, but this really stung me. The child fully deserves to be treated equally, but so do the parents, especially if one was forced into the responsibility. Should the child be punished for a crime of one of their parents? No. Should the parent be punished? Yes. If the child is not being raised fairly, not only is that also true of many in consensual relationships, but it is fixable through harder work by the parent or foster care. Foster care and having only one parent is hard on a child, but so is rape especially when it comes with consequences for the raped. Rape is far worse and more frequent for women, but in this way they have it better; women can choose to abort when raped, men don’t have this privilege. Finally, the money does indeed go to the parent, and is supposed to be used on the children. I have an aunt that gets child support for her kids from my uncle, as it should be. However, the money does not often get used for the children. My uncle has talked to many people about this but apparently can do nothing about it because my aunt makes enough to support them on her own, and just pockets the extra she gets. My uncle makes similar wages and watches the girls more often than she does, and yet he has to pay her; money makes people immoral.

    • I can’t support what you are saying at all. The problem with this solution is that then he is not only paying for an unwanted baby, but he is also forced to take care of it. Are you saying that it is fair for someone to be raped, and then have monetary harm enforced on them for the rest of the baby’s young life because of it? The baby has the same needs as any other, but someone else should pay for it, not the raped. Should male rapists get visitation rights, or be able to force a women to have a child that is the product of rape? This would not even be a question if the sexes were reversed, and if we want equality, we must strive for equality not privilege.

      • When one person loses money (by being ordered to pay for something that should not be their responsibility, for example), you can say that they “suffered a monetary harm.” You really couldn’t figure that out?

      • “We use English on this blog.”

        But you obviously don’t use deductive reasoning. What “monetary harm” means is fairly obvious to anyone who isn’t just trying to be snarky.

        That someone coins a new phrase with an obvious meaning does not make them illiterate.

      • It’s obvious just this far in the comments section that the author of this blog has no interest whatsoever in using any form of reasoning except that which is both emotional and reactionary. The blogger has a truly open mind unhindered by logic.

      • Let me explain what Clarissa is saying, for those of you who don’t get it. She doesn’t believe that forcing someone to lose a large portion of their income harms them; therefore, the rights of the victim in such a case would not matter, as forcing someone to forego a large portion of their income doesn’t strike her as hurting them in any way.

        That is why she completely ignores the issues of the rights of the victim in female-to-male rape cases that result in a child.

        Unfortunately, she cannot bring herself to say that she doesn’t care about the victims rights, or that she actually doesn’t care about causing financial hardship to a male victim, so she simply nitpicks anyone who brings up the issue in order to dodge it.

      • Ah, we have another translator visit us. How nice. Just what we’ve been missing, yet another person who talks to voices in their head. Of course, anybody who is capable of creating this verbal atrocity ” so she simply nitpicks anyone who brings up the issue in order to dodge it” should chew rather tan talk. But hey, let’s not discriminate against the barely literate.

      • Okay, how about this:

        Unfortunately, she cannot bring herself to say that she doesn’t care about the victims rights, or that she actually doesn’t care about causing financial hardship to a male victim, so whenever someone brings the issue up, she changes the subject by criticizing their word choice.

        By the way, I notice that once again you are changing the subject.

    • Are people really arguing that having one’s genetic material stolen from you in an act of violence makes you culpable for any life thus created? Really?

      THey may as well select a random man and tell him he has to support the child. At least they wouldn’t be rubbing salt into a rape victim’s wound, then, and the selecrted man would have just as much responsibility toward the baby as any other man who was in no way voluntarily involved in its creation.

      I can’t believe people are even maing this claim. Yes, the child deserves support. But no, this man should bear none of that responsibility.

      • No, nobody is saying that. The only weird person who put the words “culpable” and “human life” in the same sentence is you.

        Please read before you post silly comments.

      • You have said many times in this thread the rape victim should be responsible for the welfare of the child of the rapist (and now you are denying it). Which is just another way of saying that he should be culpable for the human life resulting from the rape. You really needed to have that explained?

      • No, I said a parent should be responsible for HIS or HER own child. Being “culpable for a life” is a statement that makes no sense unless you see all life as something inherently negative.

        Who is culpable for your life? Or do you think you are somehow better than a child of rape?

  2. People seem to think way too often that child support is money that is given to the other parent instead of to the child.

    Well, the money should be given to the child (or rather, used to care for the child), no argument here. But why should it be taken from the *rape victim*? I would argue that it would be less unfair to assign some well-to-do man who can easily afford paying child support to be held responsible for child support than the rape victim; in both cases, the man had no choice in the matter, but if a random man is assigned to pay, that man at least didn’t have his bodily autonomy breached.

    Fairest of all would be holding the rapist solely responsible for financially supporting the child, as she is the only person who was responsible for the conception and birth of the child. Each dollar someone else pays for taking care of the child is a dollar the mother doesn’t have to pay, so indirectly, the mother *does* profit from the child support paid to the child.

    • Child support is paid by people whose genetic material makes 50 per cent of the child and not by strangers. Is this news to you? Irrespective of the matter of conception, that fact remains the same.

      • So, then let’s force women who were impregnated by rape to become mothers and be responsible for the child for 18 years? After all, she is responsible for 50% of the genetic material.

        Neither men nor women should be forced into parenthood. Both should have the option to opt out of parenthood. A case of rape is an even more obvious one.

      • If you are here to advocate forced abortions, go fuck yourself. If you are here to argue that the price of parenthood is equal for men and women, then go fuck yourself some more. Just don’t expect people who don’t have your brain defect to take you seriously.

        I knew this topic would attract some sex-deprived MRAs who can’t get anybody to fuck them for any amount of money.

      • Why the extreme hate? Hate gets in the way of rational thought. The issue here is whether rape victims should be forced into parenthood. The answer, obviously, is no for either sex – IF you believe in gender equality, which I do. Evidently you don’t.

        BTW, I’m a happily married father of two beautiful daughters who love and respect both their parents. They are totally happy and secure. Love is way better than hate.

      • That’s not what he’s saying. I think he’s saying that if men can be raped, isn’t it a bit harsh to force these men to parent? I mean, child support, esp. in Canada, is high, which I’m not against, but it’s kind of a big deal to be a crime victim and then pay monetarily for that for 18 years.

        I of course think there should be tax money supporting kids, as in Scandinavia. But what’s missing is this: the male rape victim would have to report the rape and have it prosecuted, not just wait until the perp is pregnant and then say, “Oh, I was raped.”

      • Actually, I think you’re reading into Eric’s comment and improving it! As far as I can read it, Eric wholly caricatured Clarissa’s suggestions with a completely NOT analogous situation (forcing women to remain pregnant after rape). Plus, the statement “Both should have the option to opt out of parenthood” seems to suggest that men should be able to force abortions and/or abandon a child and refuse to pay child support if they want to “opt out”, no matter how a child was conceived. You yourself suggest that opting out should be available in a narrow set of circumstances, but I’m afraid that Eric hasn’t made that suggestion himself yet!

      • graciado :
        Eric wholly caricatured Clarissa’s suggestions with a completely NOT analogous situation (forcing women to remain pregnant after rape).

        The issue is forced parenthood. A male rape victim shouldn’t have that forced upon him any more than a female rape victim. Neither should be forced to parent the child of their rape. That would be like getting raped by th esame person repeatedly for 18 years or longer.

        graciado :
        Plus, the statement “Both should have the option to opt out of parenthood” seems to suggest that men should be able to force abortions and/or abandon a child and refuse to pay child support if they want to “opt out”, no matter how a child was conceived.

        The above has nothing to do with abortion whatsoever. The female rapist would still have complete and total right to choose to abort, adopt, raise, or even abandon.

        In cases other than rape, both men and women should have the right to opt out during the first trimester, and women also would continue to have the choice up through the end of the the second trimester in most states (24 weeks). If the man chooses to opt out, that would give the woman at least an additional 12 weeks to decide whether to abort, adopt, or raise.

        Again, the woman still has 100% control over her post-conception reproductive rights. The only difference is that men would finally also have some level of post-conception reproductive rights. It’s long overdue.

      • There would be a shred of validity to your concerns if the enforcement of child support was even approaching effective in North America. Frankly, the man has total control to walk away and never be heard from again, be it socially, emotionally or economically. That is the reality of our society. Thus making your concerns of post-conception reproductive rights for men to be a lot of smoke and not much substance.

      • Exactly. I wish people who participated in this thread started voicing what really bothers them. Then, we could expect a more productive conversation. Otherwise, it’s all just smoke and mirrors.

      • A fact of this case that seems to have escaped a lot of commentators (and I apologize if I missed a posting which highlighted this fact – I know how you hate repetitive posts) is that the women in question is not a rapist – she is innocent until proven guilty (like any person in North America) and she has not even been charged with a crime as of yet. So, from a judicial perspective, this is nothing more than a routine case of child support.

      • Patrick :
        Frankly, the man has total control to walk away and never be heard from again, be it socially, emotionally or economically.

        Let me guess. You personally know of a guy who managed to walk away from his obligation to support his children once, so you figure that it must be generally true.

        Even if that were true, though, I don’t see how that changes what a male rape victim’s obligations should be to the child of the rape. You seem to be saying that punishing a male victim of rape with a child support obligation is a rational way to strike back at a system that unfairly favors men. Jeez.

      • I always wonder why people feel the need to rewrite other people’s statements in the “you seem to be saying” format. As a result, they end up addressing their own strange assumptions and fantasies rather than the original comment. It makes an impression of somebody talking to voices in their head.

      • You would have guessed wrong. I know of thousands of fathers who avoid their financial responsibilities to their children. And more to the point – this child is not the product of rape – until the man files charges and she is convicted as a rapist. At which point, children’s aid (or CPS in the US) would become involved in the child’s life (that is, the STATE, not the individual) unless the raped father advocated for custody himself.

        Creating straw man arguments are only useful for building campfires.

      • a logical solution would be to take the child away from the rapist-mother, give it to the male rape victim, and allow him to unilaterally put the child up for adoption (or allow him to collect child support for the next 18 years from the rapist-mother).

      • So not only are you irrational but you your ego cannot take being shown that you have flaws? Laughable. Let us ban that which makes us uncomfortable!

      • Not uncomfortable. Bored. Can you read at all?

        What is it? Another group of repressed hysterics have discovered the blog?

        Buddy, go be laughable, uncomfortable, or anything else somewhere other than here, OK? You are boooooring.

      • “If you are here to advocate forced abortions, go fuck yourself.”

        Eric is saying that forbidding abortions is the logical extension of YOUR argument. If you aren’t smart enough to understand that, maybe you shouldn’t have a blog to spread your ignorance.

        Just because you don’t believe in equal rights between the sexes, that doesn’t mean that it’s wrong for other people to believe in equality.

      • No, it isn’t a logical extension of anything other than this loser’s mental issues. As for whether I should have a blog, feel free to lobby WordPress to close it down.

      • Are you kidding me? I was able to read your original post and understand your point of view if not agree with it. Your replies to some of the above comments are a little much but “Eric” was being a bit aggressive but this comment right here just blew me away. Seriously? Are we willing to have a serious discussion here or just spout insults at each other?

        I think “Anonym” presented a great argument regarding the fairness of child support being forced upon a victim but you just disregarded it.

        Just as profits garnered through the commission of a crime, even if the profiteer didn’t know a crime was committed or was not part of the crime, are forfeit, so to is the mandated penalty of child support.

        What of the woman that saved semen from oral sex and impregnated herself with it? Should the “father” be forced to pay for this deceit?

      • I’m the anonymous guy from above, screwed up with my name there …

        I don’t think making it about the DNA is sensible here: Assume a male identical twin who impregnates a woman and dies afterward. Should his brother be held liable for child support afterwards, because the child carries 50% of his genes? Wouldn’t fly with me …

        Of course, I don’t believe that we would ever get a system where strangers would be held responsible for child support; still, I find it less unfair to hold someone totally uninvolved responsible than the rape victim himself – if the judicial system has to be unfair to anyone, it shouldn’t be the child and neither should it be the rape victim, and there does exist (at least in theory) a third alternative to redirect the unfairness.

        Best practical solution, IMO: Should a rape lead to a pregnancy which results in childbirth, the rape victim gets sole custody of the child and may hand it over to the state (à la safe haven laws), relinquishing all parental rights and responsibilities.

        To claim that the judicial system has only the choice either to be unfair to the rape victim or denying a child the means necessary to live (which just assumes that the rapist isn’t able to provide enough money to take care of the child herself) is only possible if one ignores a mass of other alternatives.

      • That is not necessarily true. All that matters is who is listed as the father on a birth certificate. If a woman lies or is able to deceive a man into claiming that he is the father of a child, he is legally held liable for the welfare of that child as well the possibility of paying child support.

      • This is a completely separate issue and it should be discussed separately. Nobody mentioned lying on birth certificates in the original story, so I don’t see the point of bringing this up in this thread.

  3. Please read my post carefully. It says explicitly that until a person is actually born they are simply their mother’s body part(Clarrisa)

    Technically that would not be true until AFTER you cut the umbilical cord. I wonder what would happen if the mother decided to terminate the ‘Bodypart’ before that happened.

    • If you want to discuss abortion rights, I don’t mind opening a separate thread for that. I’d prefer that this thread is free for the discussion of the declared topic: children’s rights.

    • Uh, no, the umbilical cord and placenta are part of the fetus, not the mother. Goddamn, take some biology classes.

  4. Child support is paid by people whose genetic material makes 50 per cent of the child and not by strangers.(Clarrisa)

    Really? What happens in cases of adoption? Also, what happens if one biological parent dies and a step parent becomes involved? No DNA in that situation either.

      • I know that silly, Im talking about the possibility of the step parent having to pay, afterall, they dont have 50 percent of the genetics.

      • David

        I mean if the step parent is involved long enough he/she could be held accountable for support regardless of the fact they have no genetic involvement.

      • What if there is no step-parent? Your argument is that every child is entitled to financial support from two (biological) parents, because else she/he is “deprived of adequate means of existence”, so all children who have lost one parent are … starving? Living on the streets?

        I don’t really think this is true, and so there are many cases where it is possible for a single parent to provide for their offspring on their own, even though it may mean that the standard of living is lower than it would be with another parent providing.

  5. Rape-forced-to-be biological-parent victims should not be forced to be parents by the rapist. In this case, if the rapist mother (if she’s really a rapist) can’t raise her child without the rape victim assistance, she should undergo abortion.

    • As I already said, those who want to advocate either forced abortions or forced births should go do it someplace else. Such arguments are not welcome on my blog.

      Why is this so hard for people to understand?

      • This is a public blog Clarissa. You opened your commentary up for a public forum of response. You do not “own” this blog, because no-one owns a public space. To attempt to place limits on what people do here is childish and ignorant. To attempt to place limits on people’s opinions, furthermore, only reveals yourself to be close-minded and petty. I would suggest you find another mode of expression that allows yourself the agreeable and self-affirming response you so obviously desire.

      • I would have to agree with Ben G. I’m not sure what exactly you find funny about his comment, it’s both factually correct and apparently necessary.

        Further, to the point of your post, I have a question. Should a rape victim with an STD be financially responsible to cover the cost of treatment to the rapist as is the case if two consenting adults engage and one knowingly withholds this information? Does this line of reasoning not strike you as “victim blaming?”

        I’m a male victim of rape, and not only do I find your post incredibly insensitive and grotesquely lacking reason, I’m honestly baffled as to how anyone who claims to be a proponent of gender equality could take such an absurdly ignorant stance. Ignoring the complete lack of ethical consideration you’ve seemed to give this matter, I’m amazed that someone who appears to be a fairly articulate person, can be so genuinely misguided.

      • If you’re a rape victim, and you are sued for child support as a result of it, and that is the first time you say it was rape, then it will appear that you are now saying so to evade child support.
        You really need to report rape, get the rape kit done at the hospital, file and press charges right after it happens … not just because there is a now a child. I’m sorry about what happened to you but you have to get realistic about what it takes to defend yourself legally. I repeat: report because it was rape, not just because there is a child.

        I have a question, too, having once gotten an STD from someone who didn’t tell me he had one and to this day has not admitted it. How would I have gotten him to cover the MD visit and Rx? Small claims court? How do you prove to a court that the STD *had* to be from this person and only this person? This just doesn’t sound realistic, and also curing a virus is a lot easier and cheaper than raising a child is.

      • I must have misunderstood your original post. I agree with you that you should have to be able to prove that you were raped to use it as a defense against a child support obligation, and that unless you report the rape right away, you would typically have no chance to prove that you were raped.

        I thought you were saying that even if you could prove that, you should still be liable for child support.

      • No, you did not misunderstand. My position is that both men and women should support their child irrespective of how that child came into existence. Of course, if the rape was reported, I see no way for the rapist to preserve custody, so this becomes a non-issue.

      • How does that make is a non-issue? What if the rape victim doesn’t want custody of the child? Or were you thinking that the victim should be able to compel the rapist to get an abortion before the birth, and that’s why it is a non-issue?

      • This has all been discussed a gazillion times. if a person doesn’t want custody, it’s their obligation to support their child financially. The tragic circumstances of conception don’t make it any less one’s child.

        I hope the questions that have been answered at length already don’t get repeated ad nauseam.

      • i am actually curious about the rape laws and am not trying to prove any points.

        if a women is raped but reports it after she finds out that she is pregnant, is it too late?

      • It’s not too late to press charges – but the potential for getting justice are greatly diminished. Prosecutions of rape is difficult under the best of conditions – allowing time to pass before reporting only minimizes the chance of successful prosecution.

      • So… basically… are you saying anyone who doesn’t report a rape right away, must be lying?

        Also, the idea we are discussing is, “Should a man have to pay child support if the child was conceived during rape.” Even if in this particular case, let’s just pretend he was lying, it still makes the topic a worthwhile discussion in general.

        Knowing nothing about the case, going straight to victim blaming and character assassination doesn’t forward the discussion at all.

      • The fact that you want to make fun of your readers just proves your own immaturity. As the author of the article being discussed, please conduct yourself in a more seemly and polite manner. It is rude of you to verbally assault people for disagreeing with you or for calling you out on your behaviors.

      • What is so hard to understand that your own position is contradictory with your other stated positions. Introspection and logic – they you not get made a fool of on your own blog.

  6. Clarissa,
    I think the thing is that Danny is essentially saying that “You’re forced to support this child because you share 50 percent genetic material.” is bunk. If you want to argue against him, you can’t just say “That’s how it is.” You have to say why you think it’s a good idea for it to be that way.

    • “You’re forced to support this child because you share 50 percent genetic material.” is bunk.

      I was thinking more along the lines of bullshit but you get the picture. I think that circumstances of how that person’s 50% came to make up that child makes a difference. And while I’m not accusing Clarrisa of this I notice that a lot of people seem to think, “You’re forced to support this child because you share 50 percent genetic material.” holds true as long as we’re talking about the sperm half of the child. Switch to the egg half of the child and all of a sudden extenuating circumstances come out of the woodwork and that person with the egg should have all the rights, privileges, and powers conceivable.

      This comes very close to touching on how MRAs (correctly) point out the double standard with it comes to reproduction.

      • That difference does not translate into literally giving the one that goes through the pregnancy have full control over the other person’s role in the resulting child’s life. Well that’s how the system rolls now but it shouldn’t.

      • It’s actually more complex than that. But I repeat – if you’ve been raped and you want legal recognition of that, you should report it. More like, should have reported it, when you still had signs of struggle and stuff like that on you. It’s hard to prove for women and I am imagining, harder for men. It’ll never work weeks or years later to say oh but that was rape when you’re trying to get out of child support. Your best bet is to report it before you even know your rapist got pregnant.

  7. Thanks for chiming in on this Clarrissa.

    Child support, however, is not about either parent or the process of how they ended up being parents. It’s about ensuring that a child – a separate human being who never asked to be brought into this world and who in no way influenced the circumstances of his or her conception – has adequate means of support. It is the role of the justice system to defend the person who is the weakest and who cannot even speak for him or herself, namely, the child. A justice system that prefers to deprive a child from adequate means of existence in order to avoid being unfair towards an adult is no justice system at all.
    Based on this line of logic if a woman has a child from a sample from a sperm bank and falls on hard times she should be able to get the ID of the man that generated that sample and hold him up for child support (and after reading through Glenn Sacks’ old blog and Fathers and Families I’ve noticed this scenario has actually happened). Based on this logic if an adoptive couple is coming up short they should be able to go after the biological parents for support. I’m sorry but I don’t buy that.

    People seem to think way too often that child support is money that is given to the other parent instead of to the child.
    While there are people who think that there is still the matter that in this case child support is going to a constant reminder that that payer was (allegedly) raped. Make no mistake this is not some irresponsible one night stand and a baby was produced. This was a forceful nonconsensual act. I simply do not think that a rape victim should have to go through that on a monthly basis for 18 years.

    But as for the gender difference let me ask you. Let’s skip gestation and go right to birth. If this woman gave birth to a baby that was produced by rape would you say that she has a responsibility to support it?

  8. To get special consideration for anything as a result of rape, the rape does have to be reported, etc. Not just mentioned to parents or something — reported and more. Saying later, oh, but that child was a product of rape, when the objective is not to pay child support, doesn’t look too believable.

  9. If you can’t substantiate your suggestion that I have a double standard on this issue, then maybe you should think twice before making it.

    If I were a woman who for whatever reason had to give birth to a child conceived as a result of rape and ended up not having the custody of that child, I wouldn’t just pay the puny child support awarded by the court. I’d pay a lot more. Because it’s a human being who came out of me and who is not to blame. And if you don’t get that, I think your maturity level is terrifyingly low.

    • If I were a woman who for whatever reason had to give birth to a child conceived as a result of rape and ended up not having the custody of that child, I wouldn’t just pay the puny child support awarded by the court. I’d pay a lot more.
      So, would you hold other women to that as well?

      Because it’s a human being who came out of me and who is not to blame.
      And its not about blaming the baby. Its about that rape victim being able to safely remove themselves from that situation and all ties to it.

      If you decide to support the child then so be it. I just think its unfair to hold someone else to that, much less trying to call someone immature for not agree with it.

  10. I now want arecognition from you, Danny, that I don’t have a double standard on this issue. Because it’s kind of unfair that such a suggestion is made baselessly on my blog.

    The standard that both I and the justice system want to impose on everybody is that everybody who participated in creating a child should contribute financially to maintaining this child. If you manage to find a double standard in this, then we must have a different definition of what it means.

    If an adult keeps getting reminded of the circumstances of their violation, that is tragic. However, a child who doesn’t get child support is more tragic than that. Do you really not get that?

    • I now want arecognition from you, Danny, that I don’t have a double standard on this issue. Because it’s kind of unfair that such a suggestion is made baselessly on my blog.
      So are you saying that you hold any and all people to the expectation that they should be held to paying child support regardless of gender and regardless of how they contributed their half of the genetics? If you are then I’ll acknowledge you aren’t holding a double standard.

      The standard that both I and the justice system want to impose on everybody is that everybody who participated in creating a child should contribute financially to maintaining this child. If you manage to find a double standard in this, then we must have a different definition of what it means.
      You may not hold a double standard (that would depend on your answer to my question above) but with the court system I still say there is because I firmly believe that this would not happen to a woman.

      If an adult keeps getting reminded of the circumstances of their violation, that is tragic. However, a child who doesn’t get child support is more tragic than that. Do you really not get that?
      Yes I see where you’re coming from. It comes down to a comparison of the raising of the child with the violation of the raped parent. We just differ on which is more tragic. I don’t think that “best interests of the children” justifies this.

    • “[e]verybody who participated in creating a child should contribute financially to maintaining this child.”

      But that’s the crux of the matter, isn’t it: Can we really say that a rape victim *participated* in creating the child, i.e. that the victim participated in her/his own rape? I disagree.

      “However, a child who doesn’t get child support is more tragic than that.”

      I would say that this statement is only conditionally true: If the custodial parent doesn’t need the other biological parent’s money to be able to raise the child with a standard of living higher than, say, 70 % percent of other children enjoy, *tragic* isn’t the word I would describe the situation of the other parent not paying child support (for whatever reasons).

      • *If the custodial parent doesn’t need the other biological parent’s money to be able to raise the child with a standard of living higher than, say, 70 % percent of other children enjoy*

        That’s a big “If”.

  11. In real life, though, lots of guys do in fact abandon children on a regular basis and child support is still not all that easy to collect from those who don’t want to pay it.

  12. Montreal Internet connections are weird, so I can’t leave a comment directly to a person I’m responding. This one is for Danny. I agree that, unfortunately, the court system is still sadly very biased in favor of women and not just in what concerns children. Also in what concerns violent crime perpetrated by women. This is very detrimental to women’s rights.

    I think we have mostly reached an agreement, which is a good thing. :-)

  13. T

    Mictlantecuhtli :
    In real life, though, lots of guys do in fact abandon children on a regular basis and child support is still not all that easy to collect from those who don’t want to pay it.

    True enough, which is why allowing men to opt out in advance is not only the right thing to do for the man, it also gives the woman (while she still has time to choose to abort) advance knowledge that should she choose to raise rather than abort or adopt, she will be doing so on her own – rather than have to chase him all over the country for support. So, it really is a mutually beneficial arrangement. If she feels she doesn’t want to be a single parent, she has total control over her options to make a different choice.

  14. The last comment by Eric is the most disgusting piece of vile crap I have ever heard on the subject. When a child is born, you can’t “opt out” of the fact that this is an actual human being who is half you. The attempt to blame women for the behavior of dead-beat dads who are the vilest cockroaches imagnable is beyond ridiculous. You need to solve your Mommy issues like yesterday, buddy. Because any person in their right mind simply spits on people who would go to such extent just because they begrudge a few bucks to their own flesh and blood.

    Bleh.

    • I strongly urge you to READ what I write before knee jerk responding to something not stated.

      “When a child is born, you can’t “opt out” of the fact that this is an actual human being who is half you.”

      1) There is NO CHILD during the first trimester when women opt out and when men should have the right to opt out, which is why abortion is legal. This is called the parents right to choose – whether to become parents or not. Neither men nor women should be forced to become parents. They should and must have the right to choose before there is a child.

      “The attempt to blame women for the behavior of dead-beat dads who are the vilest cockroaches imagnable is beyond ridiculous.”

      Again, you haven’t read any blame of men or women. Couples sometimes conceive accidentally. Both should have the right to choose during the first trimester, and she should also be able to choose during the second trimester. Actually, in Canada it is legal to abort up until the time of birth.

      “Because any person in their right mind simply spits on people who would go to such extent just because they begrudge a few bucks to their own flesh and blood. ”

      I’ve heard your identical argument from anti-choice groups.

      • Eric, you are very confused.

        “There is NO CHILD during the first trimester when women opt out and when men should have the right to opt out, which is why abortion is legal. This is called the parents right to choose – ”

        No. This part only involves the parent that is carrying the child.

        The time to opt out of supporting any child that results from an accidental pregnancy, for both parents, is before having sex.

        In other words, these are two separate issues.

        That said, I wish there was some way a man who has been raped can sue for damages that go into escrow for the eighteen years of child support. I understand the desire to remove oneself from the ongoing ties to the attacker. And yes, awful that the child would remain with the violent parent. What a nightmare for everyone involved :(

      • Of course I am pro-choice. The choice is entirely up to the woman. This is an entirely separate issue from supporting the child. Not being in control of the woman’s choice may seem “unfair” and be frustrating for you, but that is hardly reason to abandon any resulting children you may have.

      • “The time to opt out of supporting any child that results from an accidental pregnancy, for both parents, is before having sex. ”

        That’s utterly false, because women have the choice (I’m strongly pro-choice) to abort.

  15. How common is all of this, though … men raped by women who then sue for child support? (Remember, by the way, that movie Forrest Gump? I think legally that was sexual battery or something, the way his mom got pregnant.) But there’s something in this whole line of concern, men traumatized by child support, that reminds me of the old “she got pregnant to trick him into marrying her” story.

  16. I really, really hated with the passion of 1000 suns this line in that post:

    Oh and one more thing. Why is she asking for child support when she’s already got another guy in her life? And it doesn’t help that Kris himself is married to someone else and has become a step dad of two.”

    When we came to Israel and for a while got social security support, one of their job tasks is to do “checks” – ask neighbors, come into the house to check for signs of any… male lover. In our case there was none, my mother was really alone, and I partly understand why, but I am not sure a single father would have his sex life monitored like that.

    This was just cultural exchange stories moment. Whatever one thinks of the mentioned above practice, which may be justified in RL, I can’t understand why a male lover means automatically “economic support” at all, and, especially, support of not his children. Why should he take all this financial responsibility? It’s not only “sex for money” mentality, it’s “sex for any (my or not) children” thing, when the moment a man doesn’t “get sex”, the children like aren’t his.

    • Very good points in this comment. And “the moment a man doesn’t ‘get sex’, the children like aren’t his” is key (although I’d like to underline every single point you make here).

  17. Isabel :
    Of course I am pro-choice. The choice is entirely up to the woman. This is an entirely separate issue from supporting the child. Not being in control of the woman’s choice may seem “unfair” and be frustrating for you, but that is hardly reason to abandon any resulting children you may have.

    Thank you for that clarification. Let’s be clear: then there is no “child” to be abandoned prior to birth (assuming you do not believe that abortion kills a “child”), and certainly no “child” to be abandoned during the first trimester (the opt out period).

    Regardless of the man’s choice to opt out or not, the woman is the one that will unilaterally decide if there ever will be a child. If she knows that the man has opted out, she may very well decide to proceed with an abortion whereas she otherwise may not have.

    Knowing that there will be no father involved prior to birth is much better than finding out later. Would you not agree? This would likely increase the number of abortions but decrease the number of kids without two involved parents. That is a positive outcome.

    Regardless, the issue is choice and equality. Both sexes should have post-conception reproductive choice – while there still is no child.

  18. bloggerclarissa :
    I love it how these MRAs are traumatized by the female reproductive system. Eric is practically foaming at the mouth in impotent anger. As I said, Mommy issues.
    My sincere condolences, Eric. Your Mommy sure did one hell of a job on you.

    I am not an MRA nor a feminist. They are, in general, two sides of the same anti-opposite sex” coin and neither are truly interested in equality, rather their focus is on seeking their own advantage. As I continue to state, I seek equality.

    As shown by tone and tenor of your comments vs mine, only one of us is overcome by hate and anger – and it’s obviously not me.

    As I said yesterday: “I’m a happily married father of two beautiful daughters who love and respect both their parents. They are totally happy and secure. Love is way better than hate.” Why not give it a try? You’ll be less angry (and maybe even happy) for it.

    • I’m kind of doing very well without the advice of people who are so ignorant that they don’t even know that a parent who says “my children are totally happy and secure” is the most horrible curse for any child. I would have pitied your daughters were I not completely sure that no woman on this planet would have agreed to get pregnant by you.

      • Then you don’t know what it means for a child to be happy and secure. I experienced it as a child and and am now seeing it from the parent’s perspective. I’m sorry that the idea of a man being in happy marriage with happy and secure kids bothers you but that’s my life, and I make no apologies for it.

        Although I wish for improvement and change, as can be discerned from my comments, I’m not angry at and don’t hate anyone, even people who continually personally insult me. I am teaching my girls the importance of being able to communicate, disagree, and even passionately debate an issue without being disrespectful and insulting the other person(s).

      • There are no girls at 100 miles around you, you freakazoid. Whom do you think you are kidding?

        And I’m glad you confessed people keep insulting you. IT’s only because you don’t deserve anything better.

      • People without the ability to intelligently and civilly debate and who don’t have a rational argument often to sink to name-calling and hurling insults.

      • People who intelligently and civilly debate with freaks are either insane or have nothing else to do. Since you are an obvious freak, why should I waste my time? You think I have nothing better to do with my life than mull over the boring old arguemnts from yet another boring old MRA? You people are all the same, all equally boring. I thought one of you’d come up with something new, but it’s always the same.

      • Wow, Clarissa…you’ve resorted to name calling…you DO know you automatically lose any debate after you use mean names against someone who is trying to be rational and logical.

      • I’m not trying to win any debates. Why is there an advent of hysteric illiterates to my blog today? Did some jerk quote me or something? Go away, losers. Nobody wants you here. Go back to your lonely, miserable parody of a life.

  19. Why this is so complicated? Feminism principles give the answer to all these questions:

    1) Men and women should have the same time to opt out to parenting: the legal limit for abortion.

    2) A rape victim forced-to-be-a-biological-parent should not be forced to be a parent, whenever he/she is a man/woman.

      • David’s comments have nothing whatsoever to do with pregnancy or abortion. Women would still have 100% authority over whether to get an abortion or not.

      • Which has nothing to do with men. So, why do you keep trying to tie a man’s choice to pregnancy and abortion when they have nothing to do with it?

      • Men have nothing to do with pregnancy? Freudian slip, huh? You must be suspecting that the woman who convinced you that you have daughters sold you a bill of goods.

        Yes, men like you have nothing to do with anybody’s pregnancy.

        This is too funny.

      • They man’s involvement took place prior to the pregnancy. Unless you are strictly pro-life, what a woman does about her pregnancy has nothing to do with what a man wants her to do. As I said, a pregnant woman’s choice has “nothing to do with men.”

      • And it’s still bleating and going in circles to show its complete lack of understanding of anything. Eric, you are trolling. This last comment is completely meaningless. Do you not see that?

      • The comment was/is clear, concise, pointed, and addressed your consistently contradictory comments about men and abortion. It’s the woman’s right to choose, regardless of what the man has to say. Full stop.

        You, obviously, are unable to counter it with anything resembling a rational argument.

      • “It’s the woman’s right to choose, regardless of what the man has to say”

        -I don’t know who’s “the man” in this case. Are you referring to the governments of those counries and American states that do everything they can to remove this right from women?

        “Consistently contradictory” is the joke of the summer. I was wrong about you, buddy. You are not a troll, you are a budding comedian. Do you have any other funnye expressions like this one?

      • I didn’t say that men should have the right to force women to abort or to give birth. This is not what I’m talking about. I’m strongly against that kind of machist shit.

        I talk about parenting. And, in Canada at least, women have to right to abandon parenting during the pregnancy without the consent (even without informing him, which I support) of the male genitor. In a feminist perspective, the same thing should apply to men (at the exception that he should inform her because only women can be pregnant)

        You should try to know how abortion became legal in Canada. (Hint: this is not because of the government nor because of popular pressure nor because of feminism) After that, if you’re not a femi-favoritist gynocrate, you will understand my argument.

      • I’m very well aware of the hostory of abortion in Canada. Who isn’t? I’m also well aware that only women can get pregnant. What are we arguing about here? :-)

    • Oi, I completely forgot that too. My mother’s friend after abortion in her youth couldn’t have any more kids and in the end adopted 2 children. But adoption isn’t for everybody and most people’s 1st choice is biological children.

      Also, a woman may not immediately notice pregnancy, so one has less than 3 months. Even without all restrictions and costs on abortion in US.

  20. OK, everybody, while I’ve been momentarily away from a computer because I was traveling, this thread was hijacked by a stupid, worthless and ugly MRA called Eric. Please do not waste your time and energy on it. This creature only exists for us, nor,al people, to poke vicious fun at it. All of these pseudo-arguments are age-old, as well as the tired “I have 2 daughters” trick. It’s really hilarious how every single MRA has 2 daughters.

    So feel free to make fun fo this fool but please don’t take him seriously.

  21. To resume: MRAs like Eric have a single argument: men can’t choose abortion so they should not owe child support. This is a ridiculous argument that it makes no sense to discuss. Now that I have summarized their long and boring efforts to just say it already, maybe they will finally go away.

    • No, he said that men should have the right to opt-out from parenting during her pregnancy because women have the same right (and I support it), not after the child’s birth!

      • Try to know about how abortion became legal in Canada. Unless you’re a femi-favoritist gynocrate (as Eric’s comments seems to demonstrate), you will understand my argument.

      • As I said, I’m very familiar with the history of abortion in Canada. I live in the US, though, and there the history of abortion is a lot more tragic. And is getting more tragic every day while we sit here wasting our time on the supremely unfucked and unfuckable Eric.

      • “he said that men should have the right to opt-out from parenting during her pregnancy ”

        -Not to worry! Eric will never have a chance to opt out of being anybody’s parent because there sin’t a woman ugly, stupid and miserable enough to want to get pregnant by him. (A little hint: that’s precisely why he is so enraged.)

      • bloggerclarissa :
        -Not to worry! Eric will never have a chance to opt out of being anybody’s parent because there sin’t a woman ugly, stupid and miserable enough to want to get pregnant by him. (A little hint: that’s precisely why he is so enraged.)

        Which one of us is enraged? Which one of us has hurled countless insults and stooped to childish name-calling? I have not once (nor will I) call you an ugly name or personally insult you or your appearance.

        Despite non-stop insults and name-calling from you, I have tried to be calm and respectful, and made a rational argument that you have been unable to counter with anything other than childish name-calling and insults – which are the precisely the tactics that I am teaching my girls to avoid when debating an issue.

      • I don’t really care what you will or will not do, buddy. Nobody cares what you will or will not do. And that’s what bugs you. You can take your “respectful” load of baloney and stick it very very deep in your ugly stinky ass.

        And please stop mentioning your imaginary girls. You are just embarrassing yourself.

      • That one way we differ. I believe it does matter how we treat others, especially when there is disagreement. I don’t believe that just because somehow has a different view that means they are [insert list of vile names you called me].

        I don’t believe that the way to successfully debate an issue is to see if I can possibly sink lower, insult more, and call worse names than the other person. The way to successfully debate is to calmly and respectfully make an intelligent case.

        I also strongly believe in equality, that neither men nor women should be treated as inferiors based on their sex, which is why both sexes should have post-conception reproductive choice.

      • Stop being such a bastard.

        See, now it’ll be easier to be respectful of other human beings. I respect Eric for his rational arguments and respectful/appropriate responses to your vitriol. He is a better person than I am – as noted by my calling you a bastard. (I would have gone with the female version, but in the pursuit of equality I opted for the male version of the word)

  22. David Gendron :
    No, he said that men should have the right to opt-out from parenting during her pregnancy because women have the same right (and I support it), not after the child’s birth!

    That’s how I interpret what Eric said as well though I do not agree with it.

    • What does it matter? It’s all endess and silly verbiage. The laws of nature are the way they are. I’m all for the development of cloning which will liberate women from childbirth and make this issue moot. As for now, there is no cloning though, and things are the way they are. What’s the point of debating the unfairness of that? WE can just as well debate how unfair it is that we don’t have two heads.

      Except ERic, of course. He might well have two heads and three tails.

      • Because I think a couple should discuse such issues before intercourse.

        In my opinion, if a man did not state clearly before intercourse that he would want an unwanted pregnancy to be terminated, he has no right to opt out.

        As for me, I tell my partner that I do not take the pill. So, we will have to use condoms. I tell him that I will not trick him into parenthood and that I expect same from him. Moreover, I inform him that if I get pregnant I will NOT abbort and that I expect him to do his share as a parent during and after the pregnancy. Finally, he must also accept to share any of my medical costs resulting from a pregnancy and childbirth. If he does not agree to these points, I won’t have sex with him.

      • “if a man did not state clearly before intercourse that he would want an unwanted pregnancy to be terminated, he has no right to opt out.”

        So, you’re against abortion (i.e. the right to opt out for women) when she didn’t state clearly the same thing before intercourse. Sorry, but I don’t support that.

      • “I tell my partner that I do not take the pill. So, we will have to use condoms. I tell him that I will not trick him into parenthood and that I expect same from him.”

        But Clarissa’s position is clear on this: a man does not have the right to opt out even if she tricks him into potential parenthood.

        “I inform him that if I get pregnant I will NOT abbort and that I expect him to do his share as a parent during and after the pregnancy. ”

        But if you change your mind, you have the right to opt out of parenting during your pregnancy. Why this right should not be the same for him?

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    Baby, baby
    Take it, take it
    Love me, love me

    Tonight
    I’mma give it to you harder
    Tonight
    I’mma turn your body out
    Relax
    Let me do it how I wanna
    If you got it
    I need it
    And I’mma put it down

    Buckle up
    I’mma give it to you stronger
    Hands up
    We can go a little longer
    Tonight
    I’mma get a little crazy
    Get a little crazy, baby

    Do you like it boy
    I wa-wa-want
    What you wa-wa-want
    Give it to me baby
    Like boom, boom, boom
    What I wa-wa-want
    Is what you wa-wa-want
    Na, na-aaaah

    Come here rude boy, boy
    Can you get it up
    Come here rude boy, boy
    Is you big enough
    Take it, take it
    Baby, baby
    Take it, take it
    Love me, love me

    Come here rude boy, boy
    Can you get it up
    Come here rude boy, boy
    Is you big enough
    Take it, take it
    Baby, baby
    Take it, take it
    Love me, love me

    I like the way you touch me there
    I like the way you pull my hair
    Babe, if I don’t feel it I ain’t faking
    No, no

    I like when you tell me kiss it there
    I like when you tell me move it there

    So giddy up
    Time to giddy up
    You say you’re a rude boy
    Show me what you got now

    Come here right now

    Take it, take it
    Baby, baby
    Take it, take it
    Love me, love me

    Come on rude boy, boy
    Can you get it up
    Come here rude boy, boy
    Is you big enough
    Take it, take it
    Baby, baby
    Take it, take it
    Love me, love me

    Come here rude boy, boy
    Can you get it up
    Come here rude boy, boy
    Is you big enough
    Take it, take it
    Baby, baby
    Take it, take it
    Love me, love me

    Love me
    Love me
    Love me
    Love me
    Love me
    Love me

    Take it, take it
    Baby, baby
    Take it, take it
    Love me, love me

    Love me
    Love me
    Love me
    Love me
    Love me
    Love me
    yeh yeh yeh ,

    Take it, take it
    Baby, baby
    Take it, take it
    Love me, love me

  25. bloggerclarissa :
    “It’s the woman’s right to choose, regardless of what the man has to say”
    -I don’t know who’s “the man” in this case. Are you referring to the governments of those counries and American states that do everything they can to remove this right from women?
    “Consistently contradictory” is the joke of the summer. I was wrong about you, buddy. You are not a troll, you are a budding comedian. Do you have any other funnye expressions like this one?

    In the US abortion is fully legal up until 24 weeks, no questions asked. And, it’s possible to abort even later if a doctor states that giving birth would cause emotional distress. In Canada abortion is legal up until the moment of birth. A woman who is 40 weeks pregnant can legally request an abortion rather than a live birth.

    Regarding being contradictory, you want to somehow tie men into abortion when it has nothing to do with him but also want him to have no say. Which is it?

    I have consistently stated here that the man who impregnated her should have no say as to whether she becomes are parent or not. It is her choice alone. Likewise, the pregnant woman should have no say as to whether he becomes a parent or not (as long as he decides early enough for her to choose abortion). That is equality and what it really means to be pro-choice.

    • “I have consistently stated here that the man who impregnated her should have no say as to whether she becomes are parent or not. It is her choice alone. Likewise, the pregnant woman should have no say as to whether he becomes a parent or not (as long as he decides early enough for her to choose abortion). That is equality and what it really means to be pro-choice.

      I agree with that!

    • “you want to somehow tie men into abortion when it has nothing to do with him but also want him to have no say”

      -Which is what? Are you drunk or on drugs? What does this “tie men into abortion” mean? Do you think somebody ties men down to conduct abortions on women? What a stupid jerk you are.

      “That is equality and what it really means to be pro-choice.

      -No, it isn’t and it doesn’t. It just means you are sick and deluded and nobody wants to waste their time on you, so you troll blogs.

      “In the US abortion is fully legal up until 24 weeks, no questions asked. ”

      -You must have had many of them to be sure. And in a variety of states, too? I’ve had a share of idiots on my blog. But nobody like this one. What a donkey, seriously.

  26. bloggerclarissa :
    People who intelligently and civilly debate with freaks are either insane or have nothing else to do. Since you are an obvious freak, why should I waste my time? You think I have nothing better to do with my life than mull over the boring old arguemnts from yet another boring old MRA? You people are all the same, all equally boring. I thought one of you’d come up with something new, but it’s always the same.

    Civil people who have the ability to intelligently debate either debate civilly or do not engage at all. What they don’t do is stoop to name calling and insults. Only untrained children and people with poor character descend to such lows.

    Also, the use of the term “you people” reveals prejudice and bigotry.

      • You’re right. Thanks. If she comes back with more insults I will just ignore them and stick to the rational argument.

      • Have you considered leaving? Or do you have absolutely nothing to dow ith your sad joke of a life? Will you just sit here pathetically until you become the first loser ever to be officially banned from my blog?

        Huh? No self-esteem at all? Huh?

      • I love when you call me sweetie! ;)

        The main is about the right to abandon parenting in a particular period of time, which should be the same for both sexes (and which
        I support for women).

      • “The main is about the right to abandon parenting in a particular period of time, which should be the same for both sexes (and which
        I support for women).”

        Next David will say the man also has a right to change his mind at any point in the process, even if he made promises to the woman before sex. Why not?

        This is indeed all about anger at women. Basically it sounds like these guys want men to be easily able to abandon children as a punishment to women because the women are allowed to control their bodies (which they totally support!)

      • Thanks ;) meanwhile, I don’t mean to keep feeding the trolls, but while I was out grocery shopping, I thought of a completely fair and “logical” solution to the “problem”:

        For the first 24 weeks of the pregnancy both the man and the woman have the right to have an abortion. If neither the man nor the woman has an abortion and a child is ultimately born, both parties are responsible for providing for the child.

      • If that could be applied across the board on both genders then I could actually see some consistent logic in that. But I don’t see that flying because there would be people ready to go off on how unfair that would be, and they wouldn’t all be talking about the supposed unfairness to men.

      • Sorry that should simply read “after the 24-week period of free-choice for both men and women, if a child is ultimately born…”

        Danny, it is totally fair because the two sexes are being treated the same way, right? Isn’t that what these MRA gys want?

      • You say that as if a woman can’t do the exact some thing (e.g. “I promise I’ll get an abortion if I get pregnant”).

    • Yes, I’m a prejudiced bigoted child. Will you crawl back into your hole now? Do you see how every single comment you make presents you as the greatest fool there ever was?

    • If you are upset with the very dubious privilege of pregnancy and childbirth, all you can reasonably and practically do is support cloning. Other than that, we can file official complaints with Nature. What’s the point of discussing things that cannot be changed for now?

      • I support cloning. This is not about pregnancy, nor abortion, nor the right to give birth, which are exclusively for women, of course.

        This is about the right to abandon parenting in a particular period of time..

    • It will be the same the moment when the participation in carrying to term and giving birth is the same. But right now it isn’t. So what is there to discuss? People who invest more should get a greater return. Those who risk more can potentially both lose and gain more. Do you know an area of life where this is not true?

      • “It will be the same the moment when the participation in carrying to term and giving birth is the same. But right now it isn’t. So what is there to discuss? People who invest more should get a greater return.”

        And that’s why women have the exclusive right to abort and to give birth. But this should not apply to the right to not parenting.

      • That’s also why women have the right to not inform the male genitor when she opt-outs of parenting during the pregnacy, but this should not create a right to refuse the opt-outing of their male genitor during the same period.

      • David, you bought into Eric’s lies and that is a mistake. Nobody makes anybody parent by force. Child support is not about parenting. All deadbeats are required to do is contribute a couple of bucks. No parenting is required from anybody.

      • The same thing applies to child support. Women have the right to abandon child support during their pregnancy, so the same right should apply to men.

      • Relax, David. I’m sure you can’t get pregnant. But I repeat, I think you should have a vasectomy since you are so worried about getting manipulated into owing child support. You really can take steps to prevent that — you aren’t powerless.

      • ? Hunh? My point is, there is so much paranoia on this thread. Woman rapes man, takes child support … when the actually common situation, as Patrick points out above, is man walks away from child (and it’s easy to do).

      • Women are not paying child support during their pregnancy. So how can they abandon it? What are you talking about? You just said it is not about abortion. Oh I see, you are talking about a completely different thing. You are talking about “abandoning child support” during the first or second trimester!

        Now I’ve heard everything.

    • That’s what hey keep forgetting. They have all the choices in the world. Yet they keep harping on this completely imagined “unfairness”. And then people like this Eric start whining that nobody takes them seriously. This is such a non-issue.

    • I agree but this is not the point. I’m not worry about that, I’m worry about freedom and equalty of rights. The same thing applies to women’s sterilization. The existence of women’s sterilization doesn’t kill the right to abort.

  27. David Gendron :
    I agree but this is not the point. I’m not worry about that, I’m worry about freedom and equalty of rights.

    Many people support freedom and equal rights as long as it’s an issue with which they agree. If they don’t agree or if they prefer inequality and/or personal advantage, suddenly equal rights don’t apply. This is an example of that.

  28. David Gendron :
    So, you’re against abortion (i.e. the right to opt out for women) when she didn’t state clearly the same thing before intercourse.

    No, I am not.

    David Gendron :
    But if you change your mind, you have the right to opt out of parenting during your pregnancy. Why this right should not be the same for him?

    I give him the same rights to change his mind when he gets pregnant.

      • Lol, where did I say I was a feminist? Maybe I am, maybe I am not. I don’t care about such labels.

        And I do not know why you complain, David. You can have a child without risking your health and life. If your partner choses to abort, again you won’t risk health nor life. Whether I chose to have a child or to abort, in both cases I will risk … yes, you are guessing correctly … MY health and life.

        If you want cero risk of fathering an unwanted child, be abstinent. I as a woman would do the same if I was as scared as you seem to be.

    • That is the same argumentative trickery in the form of :”Gays have the same right to marry someone of the opposite gender so its all equal rights.” Pure bullshit and designed to insulate the mind from thinking. Your ego is trying to protect yourself from seeing yourself as a bad person because your ego forsees the logic inherent in the position and is attempting to stop you from traveling down the eventual road.

      Let go of your ego and challenge yourself to become a better person.

      • Buddy, take your clumsy advice, stick it up your stinky ass, and crawl away from here.

        Do you have no self-respect at all to degrade yourself this way where you are not wanted?

  29. I had to think about this for a while, and I still don’t have a firm opinion.

    I think the rapist should lose custody of the child. Rape is not an act of lust, it’s an act of sadism. Rapists get off on overpowering and humiliating their victims. I see it as no different from any other violent assault, and I think anyone (male or female) who enjoys assaulting others (sexually or otherwise) is unfit to be a parent. If the victim then doesn’t want to take custody of the kid, he should be able to give it up for adoption.

    My opinion on child support in general is, “hell, yes!” However, this assumes the child resulted from consensual sex, or the rape victim being the custodial parent.

    Since the rapist in this case isn’t losing custody, I don’t know what they should do. I agree that the child deserves support, but I also think that forcing parenthood on a rape victim is wrong. I keep flip-flopping between these two positions.

    • FellBeast :
      I think the rapist should lose custody of the child. Rape is not an act of lust, it’s an act of sadism. [...] If the victim then doesn’t want to take custody of the kid, he should be able to give it up for adoption.
      My opinion on child support in general is, “hell, yes!” However, this assumes the child resulted from consensual sex, or the rape victim being the custodial parent.
      Since the rapist in this case isn’t losing custody, I don’t know what they should do. I agree that the child deserves support, but I also think that forcing parenthood on a rape victim is wrong. I keep flip-flopping between these two positions.

      I see it the same way, just want to add that the mother in this case should not loose custody because after such a long while it should be impossible to proof whether or not she raped him (unless they have reliable eye witnesses).

  30. Isabel:
    Danny, it is totally fair because the two sexes are being treated the same way, right? Isn’t that what these MRA gys want?
    Yeah that’s supposedly what they want and I bet some of them would go for what you suggest. I’m just saying that other MRAs would not be the only ones that would complain about that arrangement either.

    • You are right. Children will complain. Once you are born you can hardly be expected to care about what agreements anybody reached when you were not even around. Which brings us exactly where we started: somebody needs to enforce the rights of the only person who will really suffer as a result of any agreement made when they weren’t even there to agree to it or not. People in this thread are so stuck on the rights of adult men and women that they consistently forget about the powerless 3rd party which is the only one likely to suffer from the situation.

      • I think both the rights of the child and the parents must be considered. The rights of the child can be met by other means than by punishing the rape victim. Any convicted rapist who now earns money should have to pay money into a pot from which children that were conceived during a rape will receive child money.

      • No, not every civilised government does. That’s why some children still suffer in societies that do not experience famine nor war. :(

        However, there are several ways so that the child of a rape victim does not have to suffer without relying on the rape victim’s money. Two have been mentioned in this thread (adoption and child money paid by rapists).

        Why should it be wrong to prefer a solution that is in the interest of both parent and child? I think it is the best solution. Nevertheless, a solution where only the child benefits would still be better than a solution where only the parent benefits.

      • I think we have seen from this very thread why such a solution is not practicable. The moment you make consent a criterion, every Tom, Dick and Henrietta will claim they did not consent. I know a woman who conceived because her partner pinched holes in the condom in a country where there is no abortion. Such situations happen all the time. So then what? What’s the kid supposed to eat, especially if the Dad never admits this in court? Once a child comes into existence, the circumstances of its conception become irrelevant to the kid’s need to be clothed and fed.

      • With any accusation, the accused is innocent until proven guilty. So, the rape victim would have to proof that s/he was raped in order to opt out. Your friend would have to proof that her partner pinched holes in the condom.

        And what is a kid supposed to eat whose parent(s) are unemployed and pennyless?

        Should the society at large not then take care of that kid?

        Which could be a third solution for children conceived during a rape as well. Here you go: Already three solutions that feed the child and do not punish the rape victim.

      • Are you really prepared to pay, say, twice as much in taxes to feed somebody elses kids? I know i am not. Somebody pinches holes and it is fair to have me punished? Why?

        The kid will grow up and provide for mama and papa, not for some stranger like me.

      • I don’t want to pay tax for somebody else’s child. But what with all the children where there are no or just one or just poor parents? Do I want them to starve? No, so I’d pay the tax for children in need. What about you?

        If I get raped and the rapist gets the right to raise the child, do I want to pay child money. No, rather I would want to pay a tax for children in need. What about you?

        Do you think that a child who grows up with the person who raped me, a person who will tell the child lies about me, that such a child will support me when I’m old?

        And why should children support their parents anyway? Elder people are supposed to get a pension.

      • I already answered this. I would always give child support to my child no matter how it came into existence. I am kind of stupefied that there are people who dont see it this way. It’s just money. It’s such an insignificant thing when balanced to the wellbeing of a person wo is half you.

      • But Clarissa, you miss the point. It isn’t that money is stupid and easily available, unless you make $250,000/yr (the vast majority of people DO NOT).

        By raping a man and taking his money for child support, you are TAKING HIS LABOR TIME AWAY FROM HIM, WHICH COULD GO TO A FAMILY OF HIS OWN MAKING AND TO MANY CHILDREN, but he can’t because the child support he’s paying to his rapist makes him too broke to even find a mate let alone afford to have children with them.

        I pray your next partner has this problem, ONLY so that you may see the results from a perspective other than the child’s. Many great evils, like the ones you advocate, were and are done in the name of saving the children. Unfortunately I do believe the child of a rape ought to have a higher chance of failure, just as much as a child of a man who turned out to be a piece of shit flight case. There must be consequences for poor actions, unfortunately the gynocentric west transfers these consequences from women and children onto the men. Equality of outcome never works, and if stable systems aren’t financially rewarded and unstable systems aren’t punished we get 50% white illegitimacy rates and hooligan crime.

      • Speaking for myself I’m not forgetting about the powerless 3rd party. (But it seems like you seem to think that that their party child is “which is the only one likely to suffer from the situation” as if what happens to that adult doesn’t matter.)

        Its not about throwing the child to the wolves.

        Its great that you care about the child (and even greater that you don’t employ the gendered double standard that seems to be commonplace). I just don’t feel the same way.

      • And if either parent is legally still a child?

        (Yes, I realize this is a separate issue, but it’s been bugging me as I read through the comments.)

    • Bola: you are not being moderated. If you enter an email address with your comments – even if it’s a non-existent one as long as it’s always the same, your comments will appear immediately. Otherwise, I’ll have to approve them manually every single time.

  31. Thanks! I didn’t know it was sooo simple to solve. :) Btw, the email is correct (at least until I graduate). So, if you ever like to contact me, feel free to do so. :D

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