Renee at Womanist Musings writes:
I have heard men joke about locking their daughters in their rooms until they are 40. Another personal favourite is the former playa playa who sees having a daughter as punishment for his past sexual antics and history of disrespecting women. Daughters are the curse that come back to haunt you.
Daughters are to be hidden away from the public lest some male with sex on his brain spoil her purity. There isn’t even the remotest contemplation that daddy’s little girl might want to get some herself. It’s all about protecting what belongs to the father – her virginity. This is why purity rings and balls have become so popular. No matter how far we have come whether explicit or implicit, women’s bodies are seen as belonging to their fathers until they marry.
This is all true, of course. If there are women whose fathers have a different attitude to their daughters’ sexuality, I suspect they are a minority. The rest of us know exactly what this blogger is talking about. After making these insightful statements, however, Renee says something that I find very unexpected and strange:
It constructs women as eternal possession, though the familial relationship remains intact regardless of the sexual activity of the girl/woman. No such assertion is made towards boys, and they are actively encouraged to not only desire sex, but to seek it at every opportunity.
Seriously? I have less hairs on my head than the number of men I have met or heard about whose mothers guarded the beds of their little darlings of 30, 40, and 50 years of age like watchdogs. I know a 52-year-old man whose mother had a hysteric fit whenever he spent time with his 46-year-old girlfriend. I saw a woman look at her newborn son and say, “When I think that he’ll grow up and some whore of a girlfriend will steal him from me, I get so angry!”
And loving Mommies do not get out of their sons’ beds after their adored treasures get married and have children and grandchildren of their own. No, they insist on being the third participant in their sons’ bedrooms all the time.
I don’t know where Renee sees all these mothers who encourage their sons to “seek sex at every opportunity.” All I’m seeing is mothers who can’t deal with the idea that their sons have personal lives of their own well past those sons’ middle age.
Once again, people, what we are dealing with here is not a gender issue. This is a problem of sexually unfulfilled parents who invade the sex lives of their children because they have none of their own.
Clarissa's Blog 
The “let boys run free and wild” thing is very American. There was a movement that started sometime in the 20th century to denigrate mothers entirely, and boys who were “tied to momma’s apron strings” were considered sissies and in danger of becoming gay. This soon turned into the idea that interest in anything that didn’t involve muscle power or asserting your persona over someone else (we call that “being a leader”) was seen as effeminate. Therefore boys who were not interested in sports or treated girls like they were people not sex objects were denigrated. I have met many women who stopped dating a guy because he didn’t try to get into her pants on the first date. They were sure he wasn’t really manly enough for them.
Americans are obsessed with “manhood” and “masculine” behavior and being “manly” and being basically the antithesis of women. Mothers of sons are expected to bring up men, therefore they have to participate in the game, and most of them have been culturally conditioned to do so. So they will praise anything their sons do that is part of the “being a boy” checklist, up to and including going after girls. I’ve heard mothers talk about their young sons being “already little ladies’ men” and bragging about all the little girls their sons chase after. It’s all part of the cult of American macho, and why we have so much misogyny here; women are seen as threatening to men’s masculinity, basically, so we have to be kept under control so our girl cooties don’t get all over the men.
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Agreed, this is a very American thing. This hyper-masculinization at the expense of all else doesn’t seem to be nearly as prevalent in other countries I’ve visited/lived in.
I’ve also dated American girls who questioned my manhood or my virility if I didn’t try to have their pants off after the 3rd date.
Hmm, maybe I’d like to get to know you a bit?
(Although more than a few times, the first date was all it took.)
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Ha ha, yes. I know what you’re talking about.
This book would be one of the more colorful examples of that kind of rhetoric. (One thing I do not know: did Wylie invent the term “Mom” for American mothers, or was it already in use? Because he certainly does not mean it endearingly!)
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Let’s not forget, however, that mothers consuming their children’s lives for lack of their own are a huge issue that destroys lives of many people. The root of the problem lies in this idea that it’s great when women dilute their identities in motherhood.
Why does everybody think I keep railing about housewifery? Because it implies martyrdom for miserable children whose lives arecannibalized no matter how old we get!
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That’s true, but we don’t do it here quite like they do it in Europe. Here the method is to make the little boy the “man of the house” before they are ready, and for mothers to use their sons’ masculinity as status markers for themselves. “My son is growing up to be quite a stud! The girls can’t keep their hands off him! I heard your boy is going into the theater. Are you sure that’s the right thing? There are so many… you know, gay people in theater. Has your son started dating girls yet?” See, the specter of the Gay Son is supposed to bring the other mother’s upbringing of her son into question. The mother with the masculine manly girl-magnet son is supposed to be the goal: it shows that she brought up her boy right.
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I think we are talking about people from different social classes. I don’t know anybody who would be capable of making homophobic remarks. People I know are all academics or professional people and homophobia is just not there. Maybe this is why I cant relate to the stories I see in this thread.
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Have you come across this saying before?
“A son is a son till he takes him a wife, a daughter is a daughter all of her life.”
I too think it’s a very American thing, although I recognise vestiges of it in the UK. Absolutely there are mothers who police their son’s romantic partners out of an (unhinged to my mind) sense of possessiveness, but the extent to which fathers and brothers even sometimes, are expected to police female sexuality, often in a violent manner, is far greater, and far more culturally approved. Being a “daddy’s girl” is looked on approvingly, whereas being a “mummy’s boy” is specifically denigrating.
This post on the topic is interesting for a male perspective on it: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2012/04/16/fragments-of-evolving-manhood-notes-towards-a-discussion-of-male-self-hatred/
The other thing I have noticed with the possessive mothers as mentioned above is that mostly they don’t try to police who their sons have sex with; it’s sort of assumed that ‘boys will be boys’ in that regard. Where the big guns come out is if their beloved boy becomes emotionally attached, because that is threatening.
I’m not totally convinced by Renee’s thesis though – it’s something that is pretty culturally dependent: some societies see marriage as taking daughters away, and bringing daughters-in-law in, and others reverse that assumption. And some see it as tying two families together. I will admit though that the first variety does seem to be the dominant paradigm, although I’m not sure whether that is merely a perception caused by the prevalence of westernised media.
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Seconding the brothers getting in on policing their sister’s sexuality. Both of my brothers participated in this–though my older brother stopped once I reached a certain age–once I started talking about sex to make him uncomfortable (he gets delightfully embarrassed). My younger brother though, he still does it. He gets very angry if any of his friends show an interest in me, which has happened several times.
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Sisters do the same to their brothers. I seriously don’t see a gender issue here.
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I agree with Clarissa, my ex had three sisters and they were ruthlessly possessive about him particularly when we were all together. Just one example was a few times if him and I were walking hand and hand or arm and arm, a sister would come over and grab his other arm or hand.
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I’ve seen something very similar! A man was sitting on the couch with his girlfriend and the were embracing each other. The guy’s mother sat on his other side and embraced him. Obviously, the girlfriend got up and left.
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Really?? That’s so weird! With my brother, and all my male friends, it seems more like their parents have a relatively healthy hands-off, laissez-faire approach. (As long as the young man in question is straight, of course. If he is gay or bi … well, it *really* varies.)
If it’s not too nosy a question, where were these poor guys living whose mothers were so obsessed with regulating their sex lives? Were they in the US, or elsewhere? Because, as other commenters have noted, this is quite odd behavior and out of sync with American conventional wisdom about young men.
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As far as I can judge, this is not a culturally conditioned thing either. I seriously don’t know a single woman who hasn’t been victimized by mothers in law. I don’t know any men who have issues with their fathers on law. I meet women from all cultures an it’s always an issue. I find it hard to socialize but mentioning mothers in law is the best icebreaker ever with women.
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Okay, mothers-in-law is a whole other bucket of chum. Because marriage has gotten into the game, and marriage is a very important, very dysfunctional institution in this country. (I’m including people living together in long-term relationships. Americans mentally consider these “marriages” of a sort, and have the same reactions to them.) I think marriage of their sons brings out a host of conflicts mothers tend to keep under wraps until then: loss of status anxiety (she’s no longer the female authority in her son’s life) being a major one. It’s not so much that she wants her son to be a little cared-for boy always under her thumb, but that she had grown to see her son as a sort of second husband, another male authority she can count on to care about her first of all, and suddenly there’s this new woman and she’s young and has strange ideas about politics and cooking and furniture arrangement and she never knew her son liked baked squash! He would never eat her own baked squash yet there he is gobbling up that hussy’s awful cooking as if it was ambrosia!
And then they have kids, and all hell breaks loose.
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This is exactly what I’m talking about. And fathers rarely do that. Although I know some exceptions.
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I haven’t been victimized by my mother in law. She and I get along really well, actually. If I had more free time, i’d love for us to get together and discuss books, like a bookclub of two.
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No such assertion is made towards boys, and they are actively encouraged to not only desire sex, but to seek it at every opportunity.
Maybe she chose not to mention it because that post was about how women are treated when it comes to sexuality but this is nowhere near the whole story when it comes to boys and their sexuality.
Boys are not simply encouraged to desire sex. That makes it sound all nice and fluffy. The truth is boys are expected almost demanded to desire sex and seek it out at every opportunity. When it comes to guys the old roles say that a never ending hunger for sex is a defining part of being a man. Also I’ve never had a single male relative get on my case about how many girlfriends I have or when I’m going to start a family.
By no means am I trying to say that girls have it easy but that little line there is a disservice to how male sexuality is handled/viewed.
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Boys are not simply encouraged to desire sex. That makes it sound all nice and fluffy. The truth is boys are expected almost demanded to desire sex and seek it out at every opportunity. When it comes to guys the old roles say that a never ending hunger for sex is a defining part of being a man. Also I’ve never had a single male relative get on my case about how many girlfriends I have or when I’m going to start a family.
This is a factor which differs from one subculture to another. I was taught that it was sinful to even think about sex, except in the abstract. Having sexual thoughts, let alone any actual actions, was a complete no-no as I was taught in my teen years.
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??I have my email and name in the required field; I do not understand why my post is being moderated.
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I have no idea why that happened. I apologize.
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I realized why it happened too late. The last “.” was omitted from my email on the first post.
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Oh I agree that it can vary from culture to culture. But that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.
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Why is it the opposite sex parent issue? Or is it? What about mother-daughter relationship, f.e. if a single mother (& a grandmother) raise a girl, they won’t have the need to “protect what belongs to [them] – her virginity”?
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Female members of the family guard the daughter’s sexuality because they interiorize the way of thinking where that is a way to make her marketable. Of course, it happens a lot.
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Hmm. My parents didn’t seem as concerned about me getting hurt by sex as they were worried about me hurting someone with sex. They taught me to “respect women” by waiting until I was married to have sex with one.
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That’s simply one more way of appropriating your sexuality, and a pretty hurtful one, I’d say.
,
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One way that doesn’t get talked about much. The idea is that as young boys we are inherently out to hurt girls and therefore we must be corrected by being taught to “respect women”. Of course no mention of being taught that women should respect us.
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I don’t even know what it means to respect all men are all women. If I don’t know them, where is respect supposed to come from? The whole concept is weird.
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I don’t even know what it means to respect all men are all women.
Well “respect women” usually means put them up on a pedestal and act like they can do no wrong and let them walk all over. Because respecting women is sometimes used as a measurement of how much of a man you are.
If I don’t know them, where is respect supposed to come from?
It comes from you being a woman. That’s it. Simply being a woman means that I have to treat you a certain, usually more lenient, way. But you’re free to treat me like shit.
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You must be referring to a specific context that I’m missing. Where and when does that happen? In the workplace? Obviously not. In politics? Ditto.
Dating is the only context where something like this might play out. Otherwise, I’m not sure I understand.
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“To respect women” means not to pressure a girl into sex while dating. In the past without good contraception and with (present too) lack of experience to use it right, failures are much more likely (condoms can break, etc, esp. old ones and before Morning After Pill it meant abortion or birth – horror for all, esp. the girl). Thus, to prevent boys behaving in F*** and Run way, which is biologically impossible for a woman, the advice.
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Of course, this approach is based on the idea that women do not need sex and only have it in exchange for being fed and validated in society’s eyes as wives . Some respect, that.
Of course, women who want to sell their sexuality are totally into this approach.
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el:
“To respect women” means not to pressure a girl into sex while dating. In the past without good contraception and with (present too) lack of experience to use it right, failures are much more likely (condoms can break, etc, esp. old ones and before Morning After Pill it meant abortion or birth – horror for all, esp. the girl). Thus, to prevent boys behaving in F*** and Run way, which is biologically impossible for a woman, the advice.
While that is a valid point that is usually not included in the “respect women” rhetoric. Now if you want to talk about a true concept of respecting women then I’d be all for including this. The reason I put the quote marks on it is to talk about the stuff that really shouldn’t be there.
Clarissa:
You must be referring to a specific context that I’m missing. Where and when does that happen? In the workplace? Obviously not. In politics? Ditto.
In violent situations (The “never ever hit a woman/girl but she is free to hit you” thing).
In romantic pursuits (The idea that when pursuing a woman she must regarded as a prize to be earned rather than a potential partner to get together with).
Deference to “women’s stuff” like emotions, parenting, cleaning.
Now for your mention of politics and workplace. There are certainly pitfalls and places where this doesn’t apply.
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//Deference to “women’s stuff” like emotions, parenting, cleaning.
Deference?! You mean this pet on the head of “women are better at cleaning than men and thus must clean everything themselves”? Everybody with 1 brain cell can clean or wash floors or dust or … . I have yet to meet people giving deference because of a woman’s ability to clean (if a woman tries to build her identity on it, it’s something else, I am talking about not-only-cleaning-in-their-lives people). If we must have stereotypes, I *wish* we had this one about men. I hate cleaning, while only “giving deference” is super easy. 🙂 Cleaning sometimes must be done, but it’s a waste of time, imagine dumping time you’ll never get again in a black hole or something.
Emotions – 2 issues here. The 1st is that it’s bad to stifle emotions and may hurt some men. If you mean that you’re right. The 2nd is that you’re mistaken about men being expected to show deference to women’s emotions. They’re supposed to condescendingly suffer their “weaker halves” being emotional = weak = illogical = unsutable to lead (a family/church/state/etc.) In most branches of 3 main religions it’s directly told, but in secular world the sentiment is alive and well too. Also isn’t there the USA myth of the brave, free pioneer, who mustn’t let himself be weakened / domesticated by women?
Parenting – Some fathers at least seem to do more than in previous generations, but most work is still done by women. And since most women are working, I can’t believe they would be against their husbands pitching in more. I do agree that the assumption can hurt men, but think that, unlike glass ceiling at work f.e., if a man wants to be a good involved father, his working, tired, normal wife will be only happy.
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Deference?! You mean this pet on the head of “women are better at cleaning than men and thus must clean everything themselves”? Everybody with 1 brain cell can clean or wash floors or dust or … . I have yet to meet people giving deference because of a woman’s ability to clean (if a woman tries to build her identity on it, it’s something else, I am talking about not-only-cleaning-in-their-lives people). If we must have stereotypes, I *wish* we had this one about men. I hate cleaning, while only “giving deference” is super easy. 🙂 Cleaning sometimes must be done, but it’s a waste of time, imagine dumping time you’ll never get again in a black hole or something.
You’ve never seen ads and tv show with the old “he is so incompetent as cleaning/cooking” angle. And remember I wasn’t trying to defend this “respect women” stuff. Just pointing out. Its fucked up on all sides.
The 1st is that it’s bad to stifle emotions and may hurt some men. If you mean that you’re right.
That.
The 2nd is that you’re mistaken about men being expected to show deference to women’s emotions. They’re supposed to condescendingly suffer their “weaker halves” being emotional = weak = illogical = unsutable to lead (a family/church/state/etc.)
Actually that’s what I mean. Like when some subject comes up that is “touchy feely” its supposedly up to the woman to take care of it. Oh the child is crying, pass to mom. Oh the kid is sitting in their room moping about the person they’re crushing on, pass to mom. Yes its on the grounds that emotions = weakness therefore that’s women’s turf but I’m sure you’ll agree that that is damaging all around right?
Parenting – Some fathers at least seem to do more than in previous generations, but most work is still done by women. And since most women are working, I can’t believe they would be against their husbands pitching in more. I do agree that the assumption can hurt men, but think that, unlike glass ceiling at work f.e., if a man wants to be a good involved father, his working, tired, normal wife will be only happy.
You’re free to believe what you want but it does happen. I’ve seen first hand who women don’t like the idea of dad being the one to go out to pick up a sick child from school (other examples being trying to work with the PTA or even simply take the child to park). So while it would be nice to think that women would be happy over dad’s attempt at involvement that is not necessarily the case.
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I have to agree with Danny. Only too often do I see women complain that the father isn’t more involved only to hand him a list of what to do with the baby when he stays with the kid for an hour.
I don’t have children but lets take cooking as an example. I love love love cooking. But if my husband pestered me with lists of instructions on how to do it and wanted to control the process, I’d never cook again.
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You are simplifying, el. Many women find it extremely difficult to relinquish control over the father’s parenting strategies. And who wants to to parenting when every breath you take is controlled?
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el I think you need to look up a concept called “maternal gatekeeping.” Like Danny and Clarissa have said, it’s not that these women want to scrub every dish, change every diaper, and do everything themselves- it’s that they want total control over how they are done, period.
In other words, Dad isn’t a “partner” he’s a subordinate.
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I wrote a long post on maternal gatekeeping a while ago. This is an issue that hurts everybody : mothers, fathers and especially children who see Dad as either distant or subordinate.
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…unlike glass ceiling at work…
Oh and one more thing. It’s actually quite a bit like the glass ceiling. Just as there are men that support women climbing the corporate ladder and are quite happy about it there are men that don’t support women climbing the corporate ladder.
Sure you can argue about the numbers on each but they do work in similar ways.
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Also, just as there are women who support women being professionally successful, there are women who condemn and vilify any attempt on a woman’s part to be somebody.
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I’ve never been victimized by a mother in law and don’t understand the sense of any likelihood. My current mother in law did a great job bringing up her son. She’s independent and she respects independence.
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