What really gets to me is the self-righteousness of the anti-choice folks.
“That bad, mean Clarissa doesn’t even want to hear out my super-convincing and inoffensive arguments as to why she is not human. How intolerant of her!” they screech with self-righteous indignation.
They sincerely feel deprived and trampled upon when I refuse to discuss the percentage of my humanity with them.
To that I say: Fuck them and their misogynist fee-fees.
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Wow, two in a row! Who shit in your cornflakes this morning. 🙂
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I know we will disagree (for the 10th time? i lost track lol) .. but I certainly am not self-righteous and not really anti-choice (sort of ambivalent on abortion)… but agreeing to not debate something is close-minded…
A good parallel might be the debate about euthenasia… isn’t it very similar? Its a persons body..shouldn’t they decide what they want to do? Perhaps you agree it should be legal, but regardless.. do you get so worked up when people try to debate that? Is someone intolerant if they dare discuss that idea?
(I am NOT IN THE LEAST trying to be confrontational with this post… just think your normal analytical sanity is missing i guess when it comes to abortion… i guess you argue that there can be no analysis.. but I think that is wrong)
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“but I certainly am not self-righteous and not really anti-choice (sort of ambivalent on abortion)”
– This post was directed at a specific blogger who attacked me on his website. I don;t think you are that blogger, so I don’t know why you are taking this personally.
“but agreeing to not debate something is close-minded”
– So a black person should be willing to discuss whether he is fully human or not? And you should lend yourself to each and every discussion of how it would be more convenient to violate you?
“A good parallel might be the debate about euthenasia… isn’t it very similar?”
– No, not really. Nobody spends 40 years of their life depending completely on whether euthanasia is legal. Euthanasia only interests one for a short time at the end of one’s life. Reproductive freedom defines every woman’s entire existence between the ages of at least 12 to 56. Of course, this is not something you can even begin to fathom because you are not a woman. See now why I find it a waste of time to discuss this with men? It’s like discussing the beauty of Beethoven’s music with a fish.
“Its a persons body..shouldn’t they decide what they want to do?”
– Of course, I support everybody’s right to decide when they die.
“Perhaps you agree it should be legal”
– Of course, it should.
“do you get so worked up when people try to debate that?”
– I haven’t met a single maniac who thinks they should decide when other people should die. If I did, I’d spit on them.
“Is someone intolerant if they dare discuss that idea?”
– I don’t use the word “intolerant.” I’d call them completely insane. Why on earth should anybody want to mess with another person’s choice to die?
“just think your normal analytical sanity is missing i guess when it comes to abortion… i guess you argue that there can be no analysis.. but I think that is wrong”
– Let’s discuss at length and in great detail the methods with which you should be raped. How, when, for how long, what kind of objects would be used in the process. I wonder how long your “analytical sanity” will remain with you. If you don’t like the analogy, Google “transvaginal probes.”
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… but agreeing to not debate something is close-minded…
Well, if you want, I would be happy to have a debate about abortion as it pertains to your uterus — since that would be the only uterus you’d have any say (even philosophical) over.
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I really enjoy witnessing the unraveling of men who discover that women have no interest in consulting their opinion as to what to do with their uteri.
Once again, I suggest – with the kindest intentions possible – that any man who has an emotional response to the issue of abortion consult a psychoanalyst. There is absolutely no reason for anybody not in possession of a uterus to have emotions on the subject. If you do, the responsible course of action is to discover why.
In response, I promise that if I start experiencing an intense desire to debate Viagra, testicular cancer and other things pertaining exclusively to male physiology, I will immediately consult my psychoanalyst.
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@Tori/Clarissa
Technically the discussion would be about more than just “your” uterus. Technically there would be something growing in there that required the genetic material of another individual to create. But dont worry, I expect you wont take that under consideration. So have at it and call me insane.
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“Technically there would be something growing in there”
– In where?
“that required the genetic material of another individual to create”
– Any individual should have the absolute right not to share their genetic material with anybody against their will. This is very easy to achieve, so what is there to discuss?
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Are you really suggesting that someone who is not me should have authority over what is or is not happening inside my uterus?
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Authority is way too strong of a word. I would like to think a reasonable person might be able to see that someone else who has a very invested interest in what is in your uterus should at least have a voice. The problem as I(and many others) see it, is that there is only one voice being allowed in the discussion or outcome.
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“I would like to think a reasonable person might be able to see that someone else who has a very invested interest in what is in your uterus should at least have a voice.”
– He should stick his stupid voice deep in his anal cavity.
“The problem as I(and many others) see it, is that there is only one voice being allowed in the discussion or outcome.”
– For the 15th time, wear a condom and stop whining already.
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So, to make sure I’m understanding you correctly, you believe that someone who is not me should have a “voice” with respect to what is happening inside my uterus?
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Ok Clarissa, whatever you say.
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If 50% of what is in you came from someone else I would think it reasonable that they at least have a voice, especially if you were a willing participant in creating something that required more than just your genetic material. Whether you listen or not is obviously your decision.
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So what you’re suggesting is that I give someone else a voice in whether I live or die, and then graciously listen to it or decline to follow their advice as I see fit. Thanks.
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“If 50% of what is in you came from someone else I would think it reasonable that they at least have a voice”
– Are you now suggesting that a parent should have the right to murder his or her children? Jeez. . .
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@tft: When you say “have a voice,” do you mean legally? Or do you just mean that someone should ideally discuss these types of decisions with their partners? If you don’t mean legally, then I agree. Assuming that there is no rape or extenuating circumstances, I think pregnancy should ideally be discussed maturely between both partners. I think that the potential father certainly can offer a _wish_ as to what he would like his partner to do. And a woman certainly could take the potential father’s wish under consideration. But to suggest that someone should be able to legally assert power over a woman and decree whether or not she should/should not get an abortion is insane. You don’t think that the male partner should be able to assert legal author over a woman’s body do you? Because that’s essentially slavery.
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“I think that the potential father certainly can offer a _wish_ as to what he would like his partner to do.”
– Other people should do what they consider right, but if I were to meet a man who’d consider himself entitled to offer a wish, he’d be out on his ass within seconds. But this is, of course, a non-legal situation and everybody should do as they prefer.
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@Evelina
You do realize that in certain scenarios it could be another woman wanting the voice. Maybe the genetic material were her eggs.
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“You do realize that in certain scenarios it could be another woman wanting the voice. Maybe the genetic material were her eggs.”
– What on earth does the gender of the disrespectful loser who wants to invade another person’s body matter?
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Maybe it was a surrogate who made a business arrangement.
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“Maybe it was a surrogate who made a business arrangement.”
– After making the arrangement, the surrogate loses all power over the donated body parts. Just like the person who might have donated blood to you does not have the right to catch you and pump it out of you at will. or is this news to you? Even people who donate kidneys and lungs have zero control over the bodies of those who accept the donations.
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Considering how litigious American society is, it is just a matter of time and you will see this idea and many others in regards to who has the only right to decide. The examples that you use are not comparable because the incubating individual would be agreeing to use someones else body part for a specific reason. I would imagine if they decided to stop the process at one point they might be financially accountable for that action.
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“Considering how litigious American society is, it is just a matter of time and you will see this idea and many others in regards to who has the only right to decide. ”
– This is precisely why the right to an abortion that is not contested by any authority is so crucial. I’m glad you are finally seeing what’s at stake here. The moment we accept that the government or another individual has the right to invade another person’s body for any reason, this sets a terrifying precedent. This is why any reasonable person is passionately pro-choice. Bodily integrity is something none of us want to see in peril.
“The examples that you use are not comparable because the incubating individual would be agreeing to use someones else body part for a specific reason.”
– What’s “an incubating inidividual”?
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Bodily integrity is something none of us want to see in peril. (Clarissa)
You already have that in your nation. Sign up for the army, they send you off to war, try to get out of it and see where you end up. Is signing a business deal in regards to being a surrogate mother any different? At least from an accountability perspective?
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“You already have that in your nation. Sign up for the army, they send you off to war, try to get out of it and see where you end up.”
– As you just mentioned, people sign up for the army of their own free will because that is how they decide to dispose of their body.
“Is signing a business deal in regards to being a surrogate mother any different? ”
– From what? A person decides of her own free will to be a surrogate. How are these situations where people freely choose what to do with their bodies even remotely similar to situations where a government wants to force women to carry to term a pregnancy these women at no point chose? Are you aware that the movement that defends the reproductive rights is called “pro-choice’? It is the choice to carry or not to term inside your body, to take your body to war, to lend your body’s services as a surrogate that we are defending. The soldier and the surrogate get to choose. So should every person choose what happens with their body.
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If the surrogate freely chose and signed a contract to carry the baby to full term, do you think she is legally accountable if she decides to terminate the fetus? Afterall, the soldier would be.
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I believe that everybody who donates sperm, eggs or acts as a surrogate is a complete freak. Whether they end up paying a fine because of breaching a contract and to whom is of zero interest to me as long as their bodies are not invaded. Even freaks’ bodies should be respected and their bodily integrity should be preserved.
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From my law school days, I seem to remember that if a personal service contract is broken, the remedy is monetary damages, not enforcing the contract. So if a surrogate decided not to go through with the pregnancy, she would have to return any money she received, but she could not be forced to go through with the pregnancy. Which seems sensible.
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@twice
Interestingly enough, if you break a military contract you probably go to jail or you are required to fulfill your signed for obligation. As far as the surrogate goes, I would imagine there would probably be more than just paying back money received, I imagine there may be other monetary damages awarded.
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Maybe they did discuss it and maybe someone reneged on a deal. There are so many scenarios to how this could play out. I know you only see it from one though. “Your Uterus”, end of discussion.
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I will now repeat my question:
“Technically there would be something growing in there”
– In where?
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“Technically there would be something growing in there”
– In where?
It is really cute how this question remains without an answer. I wonder why that is.
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It is really cute how this question remains without an answer. I wonder why that is.(Clarissa)
I find it cute that you need to ask a question you already know the answer to. 😉
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“It is really cute how this question remains without an answer. I wonder why that is.(Clarissa)
I find it cute that you need to ask a question you already know the answer to. ”
– And still you cannot answer. You prefer to spam the thread or days rather than recognize that a pregnancy takes place inside a woman’s body.
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I guess Im just a spamming freak like the surrogates and sperm donors in the world. Diversity, isnt it a good thing not everyone thinks exactly like you. 🙂
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Not everybody thinks that fetuses are carried to term in vaginas? Seriously?
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Not everybody thinks that fetuses are carried to term in vaginas? (Clarissa)
You dont seriously think that, do you?
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You are spamming.
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And you are lying and insulting. Lets call it even. 😉
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Have you suddenly gone insane? Why is this topic making you so weird? You have left one extremely bizarre comment in this thread after another.
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“Maybe they did discuss it and maybe someone reneged on a deal. There are so many scenarios to how this could play out. ”
– No, there aren’t. As you always like to say, suck it up and take control of your own reproduction. Don;t want “different scenarios”? Wear a condom, tie the tubes.
” I know you only see it from one though. “Your Uterus”, end of discussion.”
– No woman with any brain matter would agree to hear anybody’s opinion on what should be happening in her uterus but her doctor’s. You, however, should feel absolutely free to allow everybody else to decide what happens in your body.
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A conservative literary critic and college professor
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