When an insecurity in one’s own gender meets a profound unhappiness in one’s personal life with an attendant heavy dose of repressed aggression, transphobia happens.
Of course, it is easier to fixate on other people’s genitals than to resolve one’s own issues. But it’s a road to nowhere.
I particularly “love” transphobia in service of feminism. Because clearly, the best way to take down the patriarchal power structure is to harass members of a powerless and unpopular minority. God, feminism is easy!
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So why this unpopular minority acts the same way as the most popular majority?
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It is readily apparent that, at best, you are talking about a very unrepresentative sample, and more plausibly, simply taking transphobic radfems’ word for it.
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@n8chz
“It is readily apparent that, at best, you are talking about a very unrepresentative sample, and more plausibly, simply taking transphobic radfems’ word for it.”
I agree that “thevenerablecorvex” doesn’t represent the vast majority of trans people. But her position is a nonsense on this issue. And if she finds me “twanzphobic” because she has no argument, I can find her misogynic.
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“And if she finds me “twanzphobic” because she has no argument,”
Have you noticed how I’m willing to respond to literally everyone else without a problem? Do you suppose that this could be because they actually behave like respectful adults rather than repulsive, wooden-headed manarchists screaming incoherently about washrooms, calling me deluded and insinuating that I’m a wannabe-rapist?
Perhaps I’m willing to engage with them and not with you because it’s actually possible to have a rational conversation with them, and trying to explain simple shit to obstinate little bigots is not a worthy use of my time.
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“insinuating that I’m a wannabe-rapist?”
Or you are a fucking liar, or you have a bad problem of reading. I never said that.
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Corrected:
So why many activists (and you act like it yourself) coming from this unpopular minority acts the same way as the most popular majority?
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Please embrace my patriarchical jendah identity, or else I call you a twansphobic.
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If a White individual decides to self-identify himself with Blacks, how would you react if ey decides to have a cosmetic surgery consisting to enlarge the nose and changing his pigmentation?
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Trasphobia is something best not even thought about by normal individuals. Individuals who worry about being afflicted by such abnormalities would do better to exercise, work hard, or take a cold shower. What is the world coming to?
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Some people have a very narrow conception of gender and think of it as a simple male-female binary. They’re unsettled by the thought of people who don’t fit into this binary because it violates their fragile understanding of what’s normal. Bada-bing bada-boom.
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This is not what Clarissa is talking about. Trans people embrace binary gender identities by their nature.
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Cisman. Ciswoman. Transman. Transwoman. At the very least, that’s four different types of gender identity.
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Don’t use that trans-cented prefix “cis”, please.
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There are non-binary trans people, too.
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I’ve had to rethink my views on gender identity since watching a close friend go through a MTF transition. The way she tells it, something in her brain just didn’t like her male hormones and body, but when she started going through hormone therapy it just felt “right.” In a lot of ways she also rejects socially assigned gender traits, so I don’t think she’s really embracing binary gender identity either.
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“Good point, but this issue is not about them.”
Except, of course, it is. The thread is about transphobia and they are subject to transphobia. You can’t just move the goal posts because someone destroys your argument.
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“The way she tells it, something in her brain just didn’t like her male hormones and body, but when she started going through hormone therapy it just felt “right.” ”
@Djiril
So, why you use the pronouns “she” and “her”?
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“The thread is about transphobia and they are subject to transphobia. You can’t just move the goal posts because someone destroys your argument.”
My argument is about those who embrace/are victims of patriarchical gender identity like trans men and trans women. I never talked about hybrid gender identities.
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“So, why you use the pronouns “she” and “her”?”
Because those are the ones she wants to use. Why should I disrespect her by doing otherwise?
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“Because those are the ones she wants to use. Why should I disrespect her by doing otherwise?”
Djiril, she wants you to use this because she identifies herself to a gender indentity. That’s what I’m talking about.
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“Djiril, she wants you to use this because she identifies herself to a gender indentity.”
– What is this, the day when the formal logic died on the blog? This is getting bizarre. When you use the word “because” to link 2 parts of a sentence, there must be a causal link between them. A logical, reasonable causal link. You can’t say “Today is Wednesday because Obama is president of the US.”
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“Djiril, she wants you to use this because she identifies herself to a gender indentity. That’s what I’m talking about.”
Well, I’m not exactly volunteering to give up my gender identity either. It’s just more noticeable when she does it.
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And gender binary is not the same thing as gender identity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_binary
If you want to rebel against societal constructions of gender identity, you are welcome to start wearing dresses to work (assuming you are a man with a job) and take whatever consequences come with rejecting society’s notions of how a man should present himself. There are real sacrifices that come with rejecting social norms, and most people have limits on how many they are winning to make.
Most trans-people are just trying to live their lives in bodies they are comfortable with, not start a revolution. It would probably look different in a society that had not been influenced so much by the idea of gender roles, but that’s just speculation.
I don’t think I completely understand this issue, but I do believe in putting people’s lived experience before abstract theory.
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Don’t use that trans-cented prefix “cis”, please.
Cissexual is not a transsexual-centered concept, any more than Cisalpine Gaul is a transalpine concept.
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Fortunately though, the idiotic transphobia expressed by such pathetic losers is rapidly going out of style. Only those with no influence and with a troglodyte’s understanding of gender, intersectionality, and feminism hold onto their outdated and hateful ideas. Meanwhile younger people who actually have brains to use are raising their voices, and challenging and throwing out this garbage, all for a better tomorrow.
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And we should trowing out the gender identity garbage.
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I don’t think I’m especially transphobic but I do not get why trans rights (seem to be) such a big part of feminism now. It seems a lot like mission creep.
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They’re mostly being apologetic for actively contributing to our marginalization for so long as far as I can tell.
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About who do you talking about?
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I’ll add “unable to parse basic context” to my ever-growing list of your woeful flaws.
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So all radfems are transphobic?
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I think there’s a different reason.
Feminists sometimes use trans people as evidence of how gender is a social construct. There’s a lot of people who think that gender roles (and oppression) have some kind of biological justification. Trans people are a handy example to show that’s not true.
It happened even before that surge of transphobia within feminism. Andrea Dworkin talked about how transsexuals are especially oppressed by the gender binary in ‘Woman Hating’ before becoming transphobic herself.
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It’s called intersectionality, and recognizing that patriarchy negatively impacts all people, and that the gender binary upheld by said patriarchy makes life very difficult and dangerous for trans people in particular.
The only way that could be considered “mission creep” is if one has a very reductive and oversimplified understanding of feminism. It’s the same misconception which makes stupid terms like “equalist” and “humanist” so popular as “alternatives” to feminism.
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“It’s called intersectionality, and recognizing that patriarchy negatively impacts all people”
No problem with this, but not men as a sex class (even though the patriarchy hurts myself personally).
“and that the gender binary upheld by said patriarchy makes life very difficult and dangerous for trans people in particular.”
I agree but transsexuals are a product of the patriarchy. This is not the case for women as a physical sex class.
But if you recognize that partiarchy is dangerous for trans people, why the patriarchy would be no longer dangerous to women in their bathrooms?
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“I agree but transsexuals are a product of the patriarchy. This is not the case for women as a physical sex class.”
– http://www.amazon.com/The-Second-Sex-Simone-Beauvoir/dp/030727778X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1362433561&sr=8-1&keywords=second+sex Simone de Beauvoir is rolling in her grave.
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As a gender role, women are also product of the patriarchy. As a sex class, this is not the case.
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Yet another person who confuses psychological issues and political activism. The fantasies about forced hysterectomies are just plain sad.
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“Sex is naturally bimodal, but not binary.”
I agree with that. This another reason to exclude gender roles as a valid feminist concept.
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Thank you for the link, n8chz! 🙂
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One obvious explanation is that, if feminism is for all women, it has to be for trans women too.
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I always thought it was just fear; fear of what is different.
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In general, I think that a person’s likelihood of adopting a particular belief falls-off with both the number and intensity of pre-existing beliefs that they would need to give-up in adopting it.
This creates problems for trans* people in particular, because people think that they understand gender; they encounter it every day, and in fact it’s one of the very first things that they learn about as children: they learn that boys definitionally have penises and girls definitionally have vaginae. And of course, such a belief in most people is not going to go down without a fight. Moreover, it also explains why the most transphobic people in the world, ironically, are highly-patriarchal men and radical feminist women: these are the people who have the most intense pre-existing beliefs about gender.
These people are not comfortable with the ideological problems that our existence creates for them, so they respond by attacking *us*, claiming (like certain commentators on this very blog) that we are a bunch of delusional rapists, agents of the partiarchy, or gay men trying to ‘trap’ other men into sleeping with us, because by so doing, they are able to resolve the ideological threat we represent in their minds..
Ultimately however, this demonstrates nothing more than wooden-headed obstinance and an unwillingness (or inability) to modify theories in the face of conflicting evidence. The problem then, is one of denialism.
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Radfems confuse feminism with an intense dislike of womanhood. Their rabid hatred for transwomen specifically betrays a rejection of the idea that anybody could “choose ” something as disgusting and intolerable as being a woman. For them, if you are fortunate enough to be a man, there has to be something deeply disturbing about you if you “choose ” to be a woman. The choice exists only in their minds, of course.
Radfems enjoy nothing more than listing mostly imaginary horrors of womanhood. They need to create and recreate the narrative universe where womanhood is permanently debased. They hate people like me and call us “funfems ” because the idea that somebody can actually enjoy being a woman is deeply offensive to them. But I, at least, have the “excuse ” of having been identified as a woman before I could actively choose such an identity.
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They do have weird ideas. That Twisty Faster character, for instance, considers that -one should not enjoy such pass-times as learning martial arts or self-defence, if one happens to be a woman. That infringes on rad-fem notions that women are what they are, and there is no point making oneself “empowerful”.
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“they learn that boys definitionally have penises and girls definitionally have vaginae. And of course, such a belief in most people is not going to go down without a fight”
Why should a basic belief that’s perfectly valid for an overwhelming majority of people “go down”?
I totally get that there are some people who fall through the cracks of the traditional male/female sex distinction and some people who feel their bodies or minds are at odds with traditional gender roles. But it’s a small minority and their existence does not invalidate male and female as valid biological categories for most people any more than their minority status lessens their importance for understanding how sex and gender interact. Recognizing that trans people exist and should be treated with respect is a small mental adjustment and not a paradigm shattering idea.
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Most biological categories are not invested with any kind of meaning. Problems only start when biology gets assigned prescriptive narratives.
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“Recognizing that trans people exist and should be treated with respect is a small mental adjustment and not a paradigm shattering idea.”
Perhaps to you or I, but to not to an absolutist. And the people of whom I speak are, indeed, absolutists.
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Here’s the thing: Biological sex has about as much determination towards your personality and your conformity to “traditional” North American/Western gender roles as your eye colour, your birthday, or another perfectly arbitrary trait. All that goes into it is based more on cultural factors than anything locked into our genetics. Dangerous things start happening to the people who don’t fit into that narrative when that kind of thinking starts masquerading as legitimate science. Biological categories are one thing, but if it causes biological essentialism to thrive, then you get stuff like intersex infants having their genitals mutilated upon birth, trans people being subject to medical gatekeeping, and a great deal of other woes most people who don’t deal with it personally never even stop to consider.
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This is exactly what I’m saying. Biology is just that, biology. We don’t let the shape of our ears, the size of our noses, the length of our fingers dictate how we live. I’m free to assign any meaning I like to the shape of my head, and nobody cares. Yet when somebody assigns their own meaning to the shape of their genitalia, suddenly everybody has an opinion. As if their body suddenly became communal property.
And this completely bizarre obsession with bathrooms is just weird. If people fixate on other bathroom visitors instead of their own excretory functions, I suggest they visit a urologist.
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“Problems only start when biology gets assigned prescriptive narratives”
Which came first, majority preferences or prescriptive narratives?
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Of course, we could go back to prehistoric times and poll the majority. Or do the same thing all civilized people have done for such an accident of biology as skin color : agree that it has no inherent meaning.
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“Biology is just that, biology”
“when somebody assigns their own meaning to the shape of their genitalia”
Which is it? I can assign my own meanings to my genitalia all day long and it’s not going to help me (biologically male) get pregnant if that’s what I want (for the record, it isn’t).
Differential roles in reproduction are still absolute rather than fuzzy categories* and have rather more (and more profound) consequences than do trivia such as earshape or handedness.
*I have no doubt that in the future biological men will be able to become ‘pregnant’ though some kind of ectopic implantation and this might lead to other interesting changes, but we’re not there yet.
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Many women can’t get pregnant which doesn’t turn them into men.
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Women can’t participate in reproduction at all before and after certain ages. Many men and women can’t or choose not to reproduce at all. Have you ever heard anybody suggest that they should be prevented from calling themselves men / women and be banned from men’s / women’s bathrooms?
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Yes, not all biological men or women want to or can reproduce (and biological women have fertility windows over a portion of their adult lives rather than steady state fertility). I’m not suggesting that everybody wants to (or should want to) reproduce or that non-reprpductive sex is bad (far from it).
What I am saying is that human existence essentially depends on heterosexual intercourse (or medical procedures that mimic it) and no amount of gender bending or recognition of trans rights or any particular political or sexual ideology will change that.
In light of this, it does not seem unreasonable that the absolute nature of human reproduction (depending on two complementary biological sexes) will mean that for a huge majority of people biological sex of a person will be of greater (and more enduring) signifcance than most other biological categories like hair color. It’s also not clear what benefit derives from trying to make this not the case (bad syntax but hopefully you get the idea).
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“In light of this, it does not seem unreasonable that the absolute nature of human reproduction (depending on two complementary biological sexes) will mean that for a huge majority of people biological sex of a person will be of greater (and more enduring) signifcance than most other biological categories like hair color.”
– I can’t imagine what could possibly possess me to see the biological sex of anybody with whom I’m not planning to have sexual relations as even marginally important to me. Why on Earth should I care?
“will mean that for a huge majority of people biological sex of a person will be of greater (and more enduring) significance”
– Of a specific person they see as a sex partner, yes. But not of all people because this would be just weird.
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This is ironic that transjacktivists like you and patriarchical men transphobes share the same embracing of the gender identity. Holy Jendah Identity!
“they learn that boys definitionally have penises and girls definitionally have vaginae.”
And their corresponding gender identity roles that you embrace yourself, you misogynistic asshole!
“These people are not comfortable with the ideological problems that our existence creates for them, so they respond by attacking *us*, claiming (like certain commentators on this very blog) that we are a bunch of delusional rapists”
This is not what I said, you fucking liar! Why I should explain this? Okay, I should repeat it because you embrace the holy jendah identity! If you give the right to humans with penises dressed like women (and some are even dressing like men) to go to women bathrooms (in the actual patriarchical society!!!!), you give consequently the right to all heterosexual men (and even some trans women, but way more rarely than het men) to be dressed like women and to go to women bathrooms to jerk themselves off. Do you understand, you fucktard moron? I don’t talk about you and the majority of trans women: I talked mainly about heterosexual men.
Radfems and anarchists are against patriarchical gender identity. contrary to transjacktivists like you. Patriarchical men transphobes deny the right of trans people to exist: this is not my case, and this is not the case for radfems.
“agents of the partiarchy”
Unvoluntary, this is the case, because transjacktivists embrace the gender identity binary and trans people are victims of the gender binary. The real denialism is here.
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Please stop acting like you understand transgender identities. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SOCIALLY-CONSTRUCTED GENDER ROLES. AT ALL. Hence the existence of non-binary trans-folk. But of course, you’ve already dismissed them as unimportant because their existence completely disproves your argument.
You want to learn more? Then do some fucking research! I’m not going to take pity on your woeful bigoted ignorance and hand-hold you through Trans 101.
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I don’t mind about them. There was one on Facebook whom I really pissed off but I don’t remember why. Ah, yes, I do. this person was trying to emotionally blackmail me into supporting the trans issue, by saying they wouldn’t support feminism and would block me unless they saw positive signs from me that I was supporting her issue. So, I said “go ahead and block me,” which they did.
I don’t respond to emotional blackmail. It’s not worth being involved with unstable people who use those tactics.
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If this person’s support for feminism was contingent upon the actions of any one particular woman, then they are not a feminist anyways. You were quite right to delete such a pest.
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“THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SOCIALLY-CONSTRUCTED GENDER ROLES. AT ALL”
Okay, okay. So if this is really the case, you’re not a women, and you should not go to women bathrooms. Piss and shit everywhere else like a non-women can do.
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Corrected:
“THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH SOCIALLY-CONSTRUCTED GENDER ROLES. AT ALL”
Okay, okay. So if this is really the case, you’re not a woman, and you should not go to women bathrooms. Piss and shit everywhere else like a non-woman can do.
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Okay, this is your most inane argument yet.
Because you see, if this applies to transsexuals who identify as either men or women, it must also apply to *everyone* who identifies as men or women. Including yourself.
WHY ARE YOU REIFYING THE GENDER BINARY BY CALLING YOURSELF A MAN, DAVID!?!? WHY DO YOU HATE ALL WOMEN!?!
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I’m a man biologically speaking but I’m not interested anymore by man nor woman gender identity role.
Are you identifying yourself as a woman?
And those trans people who identify themselves to be a man or a woman are victims/or embracing the gender identity binary. This is only a fact.
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“And those trans people who identify themselves to be a man or a woman are victims/or embracing the gender identity binary.”
– This makes as much sense as saying that people who use computers support patriarchal gender roles. The logical connections are equally absent in both statement.
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“I’m a man biologically speaking but I’m not interested anymore by man nor woman gender identity role. ”
And yet, you “[act] the same way as the most popular majority.”
Once again, I reiterate: given that any acknowledgment of masculine or feminine identity is an acknowledgement of a gender binary, WHY ARE YOU ONLY DEDICATING YOURSELF TO HARASSING THE TINY MINORITY OF PEOPLE WHO IDENTIFY IN WAYS DIFFERENT FROM THOSE ASSIGNED TO THEM BY SOCIETY AT LARGE? Why are you not instead attacking all seven billion or so people on Earth who identify themselves as either men or women, or at least the six-and-a-half billion or so who behave in accordance with their proscribed (patriarchal) gender roles?
Moreover, even accepting that gender is a social construct, what fucking difference does that make? Nations are social constructs, and yet you can still immigrate from one nation to another, and indeed, feel more at home in one nation than in another. You can’t just declare that something is a social construct and have it magically stop impacting on people’s day to day lives.
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Of course, gender is a social construct. We live in society, absolutely everything is a social construct. In itself, social constructs are neither good nor bad. They just are. It is only when we find that a specific social construct makes our lives uncomfortable that we should work to change it. Nobody is oppressed by virtue of identifying freely as a man or a woman, by wearing a skirt, by not wearing a skirt, etc. What is oppressive is a specific narrative that people choose to assign to such facts of objective reality.
Transphobic individuals are so in thrall to these artificial, stupid narratives that they become scary. Only to them do these silly little issues of who uses which toilet matter so much. The saddest part is that they never stop to analyze why they are so bothered by other people’s identities. They speak a lot about oppression without ever realizing how oppressive their desire to police others is.
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“WHY ARE YOU ONLY DEDICATING YOURSELF TO HARASSING THE TINY MINORITY OF PEOPLE WHO IDENTIFY IN WAYS DIFFERENT FROM THOSE ASSIGNED TO THEM BY SOCIETY AT LARGE?”
This debate began with a case in Massachussets, with some bureaucratic jerks and transjacktvists accomplices who are in favor of humans with penises in women bathrooms. This debate begins with my reaction to an example and some reactions about my reactions. So this not reflects all of my general point of view about feminism. But I would answer your question by this:
1) Because some transjackivists are battling against women who want their own places, and that you justify this, and because I don’t like to be attacked by the irrationnal “TWANZPHOBIA” tactic every time we have some issue with trangenderism (this supposed genderism, which is not acceptable by a feminist).
2) What do you think about the cotton ceiling issue?
“Why are you not instead attacking all seven billion or so people on Earth who identify themselves as either men or women, or at least the six-and-a-half billion or so who behave in accordance with their proscribed (patriarchal) gender roles?”
You’re right on this. I’m against gender identity, so I’m attacking almost everyone (including even myself) in the world, and I have no problem with that. In fact, I’m even more against het men than trans people, and I’m even more against het women patriarchy-lover (those are the best allies of the Patriarchy) than het men. (on this, radfems would not like me, for sure)
Don’t worry, generally I’m way more condescending and scornful against het women patriarchy-lover than I’m against even the worst misogynistic pro-cotton ceiling transjacktivist.
“You can’t just declare that something is a social construct and have it magically stop impacting on people’s day to day lives.”
I agree and that’s one of the main reasons why non-women should not go to women bathrooms, in this actual patriarchical context.
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“This debate began with a case in Massachussets, with some bureaucratic jerks and transjacktvists accomplices who are in favor of humans with penises in women bathrooms. This debate begins with my reaction to an example and some reactions about my reactions.”
Okay, you know what? For the sake of argument, I’m going to ignore the fact that you’ve just spent the last two days calling transwomen deluded, self-mutilating agents of the patriarchy and pretend that this has all been about washrooms the whole time.
So: Here is a list of all of the jurisdictions in the United States which have legal protections for transsexuals. http://www.transgenderlaw.org/ndlaws/index.htm
You have hypothesized that allowing transsexual women into women’s washrooms would result in men dressed as women going into women’s washrooms in order to commit sex crimes. If this hypothesis is correct, then there should have been a noticeable uptick in such cases taking place immediately after trans-protections were put on the books. And guess what? There wasn’t.
Given this, I am prepared to dismiss this ‘hypothesis’ as being strawman-based fear mongering.
“2) What do you think about the cotton ceiling issue?”
What ‘issue?’ Near as I can tell, a minor tempest in a teapot errupted last summer over the fact that a single transsexual pornstar used a very bad choice of words in order to call attention to the fact that lesbians weren’t willing to sleep with her. Do you suppose that this porn star speaks for all treassexual woman everywhere? Why are you asking *me* about what she said rather than asking her yourself?
The fact that radscum blogs have managed to keep this “controversy” running for almost a year strongly suggests to me that it is yet *more* strawman-based fear-mongering.
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“You have hypothesized that allowing transsexual women into women’s washrooms would result in men dressed as women going into women’s washrooms in order to commit sex crimes.”
– People who make such an argument are obviously being disingenuous.
“The fact that radscum blogs have managed to keep this “controversy” running for almost a year strongly suggests to me that it is yet *more* strawman-based fear-mongering.”
– Oh, that was the biggest non-issue ever. And it is being rolled out so often that I beginning to suspect that you are absolutely right.
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“Of course, gender is a social construct. We live in society, absolutely everything is a social construct. In itself, social constructs are neither good nor bad. They just are.”
The problem with the gender social construct is that this social construct is patriarchical, so gender is a anti-feminist concept.
“Nobody is oppressed by virtue of identifying freely as a man or a woman, by wearing a skirt, by not wearing a skirt, etc. What is oppressive is a specific narrative that people choose to assign to such facts of objective reality. ”
You’re not feeling oppressed, but many women are feelling opressed by this, and I feel oppressed by the men gender role, especially when some men faggot think I should wear a tie or when some woman patriarchy lover suggest to men to be “a protector” or sugar daddy for women. So those women who wear the hijab are not oppressed?
“They speak a lot about oppression without ever realizing how oppressive their desire to police others is.”
I agree that radfem statists try too much to police others. But this not my case, and moreover, gender roles are a policing concept used against women in this patriarchical society.
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“The problem with the gender social construct is that this social construct is patriarchical, so gender is a anti-feminist concept.”
– This depends on a given society and on the specific substrata of society. Generalizations are not the tool of the intelligent when we are talking about societies.
“You’re not feeling oppressed, but many women are feelling opressed by this, and I feel oppressed by the men gender role, especially when some men faggot think I should wear a tie or when some woman patriarchy lover suggest to men to be “a protector” or sugar daddy for women.”
– You are oppressed by people’s thoughts? 🙂 Are you a clairvoyant?
“So those women who wear the hijab are not oppressed?”
– Of course, not. Have you ever spoken to any of them? Their rabid hatred of anybody who is not putting her fake modesty on sale like they do is palpable. Oppressed, yeah, right. They are oppressors, that’s who they are. I want to remind you that in all genital mutilations women always take the lead.
” But this not my case, and moreover, gender roles are a policing concept used against women in this patriarchical society.”
– The only people who insist and insist and insist that my identity is that of a pathetic, miserable, powerless victim no matter what I do are, curiously, the radfems.
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@thevenerablecorvex
I’m glad that you’re not a supporter of the cotton ceiling! 🙂
This is very interesting to see that it’s more easy to men wearing like women to jerk off in women bathrooms than it’s easy to marry two lesbians in USA…
For discrimination issues, I’m on your side, don’t worry. Trans people should not have less rights (but not more!) than other people.
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“I’m glad that you’re not a supporter of the cotton ceiling! :)”
You mean I don’t think that cissexual Lesbians are obligated to sleep with me? Of course I don’t: almost nobody (including the person who originated the term Cotton Ceiling) believes this–because, as I have said, it is a strawman spewed forth by verminous radscum in order to further their forty-year-old campaign of hatred against transsexual women. If you hadn’t drank the kool-aid, you would be able to see that.
“For discrimination issues, I’m on your side, don’t worry. Trans people should not have less rights (but not more!) than other people.”
This is an absolute load of horseshit. You know what’s a right that everybody else has but transsexual people do not? THE RIGHT TO SHIT IN A PUBLIC BATHROOM WITHOUT HAVING TO WORRY ABOUT BEING BEATEN TO DEATH!
Christ! Arguing with you is like arguing with a mollusc; there’s no point!
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“Now that shows to us how clearly, and to what an extraordinary depth the idea that there are two genders, with different behaviors, constructed from how different we are biologically has entered culture. Because of course,it doesn’t make sense. I mean, I don’t have a gender. I’ve no intention of having a gender. I don’t do masculinity which is the behavior of male dominance, and I don’t do femininity which is the behavior of female subordination, women’s subordination. I hope to engage in human behavior and I hope at some point in the future everybody will be able to do that too, but gender I definitely do not have.”
“So, the problem with transgenderism – which is obviously an expression of men’s sexual rights as well of course( it’s very much about the right to be sexually excited by female clothing, and subordination and so on). But it also comes out of the gendered system. And it means that in order to support transgenderism , gender has to be supported. So the subordination of women has to be supported in order for transgenderism to be supported. Transgender as a phenomenon is the clearest possible indication of the strength of the structures of the male domination going on right now.”
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“femininity which is the behavior of female subordination, women’s subordination”
– The person who said this is very stupid. It is sad that people refuse to educate themselves, read books, learn anything about the world. As an educator, I suffer on almost a physical level whenever I see such arrant stupidity. Obviously, the person who wrote this hates women to the point of having seizures. This is what idiots often suffer from.
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” But it also comes out of the gendered system. And it means that in order to support transgenderism , gender has to be supported. So the subordination of women has to be supported in order for transgenderism to be supported. ”
– What is this person’s IQ? 5? The absence of logical connections here is scary.
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What else is the gender (not sex) role of women that subordination to men?
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“femininity which is the behavior of female subordination, women’s subordination”
Feminity is not necessarily seduction.
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“Feminity is not necessarily seduction.”
– It’s not necessarily anything. People define it in any way they wish.
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So by post-modernism, you’re right.
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Maybe I should stop to consider thos “twanzphobic” attacks as rational ones…
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Oh dear, accusing flaming transphobes of transphobia. How terribly unreasonable of me!
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Please embrace my patriarchical jendah identity, or else I call you a twansphobic.
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Yes, you said that already. I seem to have exhausted your repertoire.
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This kind of tactic is too much irrational to invent something else. OH MY GOD, TWANZPHOBIA!
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I’d love to continue this titanic battle of wits, but it is against my honour to fight an unarmed man.
Bwa ha! Awesome.
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Especially when you’re armed with the twanzphobia strawman…
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You must accept genderism to accept transgenderism. Thus, if you don’t accept genderism, you can’t accept transgenderism.
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I’m not sure you do! After all, there are plenty of trans people who aren’t particularly masculine or feminine, in conventional terms — they just have a strong sense that they don’t belong to the sex they were born into. The impression I get from reading their stories is that it goes way beyond sex roles, or gender, that it’s deeper than that. That, even if being male or being female meant absolutely nothing in terms of expected behavior, appearance, social roles etc., they would still have the need to change their sex to bring it in line with what they feel they really are.
I’m really distressed that you are taking all this out on thevenerablecorvex, too; she’s a really nice, laid-back, reasonable person, and not someone who puts a lot of demands on anyone, much less strangers on the Internet!
I like your idea of what society should be — genderless, where male vs. female sex have no implications — and indeed it’s what I want too. I just don’t think trans people pose any special threat to it, or are especially invested in gender roles, compared with cis people.
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“I’m really distressed that you are taking all this out on thevenerablecorvex, too; she’s a really nice, laid-back, reasonable person, and not someone who puts a lot of demands on anyone, much less strangers on the Internet!”
– I agree. I’m very unhappy that such a nice, reasonable person is getting attacked in a very aggressive way on my blog. And for absolutely no reason, too.
“I like your idea of what society should be — genderless, where male vs. female sex have no implications — and indeed it’s what I want too. I just don’t think trans people pose any special threat to it, or are especially invested in gender roles, compared with cis people.”
– In this discussion, it is the cisgendered David who has a list of restrictions one’s physiology has to impose on one’s behaviors. So who is promoting the idea that biological gender should have a whole host of meanings attached to it? I am yet to see thevenerablecorvex make any suggestions as to how people should behave based on their biology.
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Stop using this trans-centered prefix “cis”, please.
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“Stop using this trans-centered prefix “cis”, please.”
– Ah, I see there is suddenly a new moderator on my blog.
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“The impression I get from reading their stories is that it goes way beyond sex roles, or gender, that it’s deeper than that.”
I don’t talk about them. If genders are not important for them, I applaud them and this is not transgenderism, and they can piss and shit everywhere else, like all non-women can do.
“I just don’t think trans people pose any special threat to it, or are especially invested in gender roles, compared with cis people.”
You’re right about this. The threat is posed by genderism. And transgenderism is a product of genderism.
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@Clarissa
“In this discussion, it is the cisgendered David who has a list of restrictions one’s physiology has to impose on one’s behaviors. So who is promoting the idea that biological gender should have a whole host of meanings attached to it? ”
The only thing that I said is this:
1) In the actual context of the patriarchy, non-women with penises should not go to women bathrooms. They can piss and shit everywhere else, like non-women can do. The day when there would be no patriarchy, I would have nothing to say about it.
There’s nothing else in my list. Just respect for women.
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“There’s nothing else in my list. Just respect for women.”
Says the self-identified man who has just spent the last two days telling a group of women what is in the best interest over their objections.
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As a woman, I really don’t need to be respected in such a strange way. It bothers me a lot when somebody begins to hand out labels of who deserves to count as a woman and who doesn’t. I’ve heard too many times in my life that I’m not “a real woman “. Sometimes this judgment was based on my behaviors and sometimes on my physiology.
If we start denying people the right to identify as a man or a woman based on some part of their physiology, it will be quite easy to deny every participant in this thread the right to identify as they do. An example : since many people believe that “boys don’t cry “, then every participant of the discussion who ever produced tears is not a man and should be banned from male bathrooms. Of course, then we can easily find a reason why this person is not a woman either. As a result, I’m quite sure none of us will ever get to pee in a public bathroom.
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…even if being male or being female meant absolutely nothing in terms of expected behavior, appearance, social roles etc., they would still have the need to change their sex to bring it in line with what they feel they really are.
I couldn’t have said it better myself. It’s simply a case of the shoe doesn’t fit. And shoe here is a metaphor, not a shoe. It has nothing to do with what shoes you wear. It’s more what birthday suit you wear. When that doesn’t fit, the discomfort is largely inescapable. I thank God for the technology to effect a partial escape, and for the feminist movement, which (among other things) made life endurable for child-free, non-religious women.
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Using the trans-centered prefix “cis” is sexist.
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Who cares if even any actual males want to come into female toilets. I say, let them. If they enjoy breaking social taboos, let’s see how long it lasts.
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Ive used men’s toilets on occasion, and honestly don’t see a problem.
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No, I don’t see such a big one. I think it can be a bit uncomfortable for the person doing it if they are not the designated sex, but who really cares?
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I had a conversation on Facebook last night with a really nice feminist. I think she is somewhat mistaken, though, as she buys into some notions that seem to be based in religion rather than in anything else. For instance, she states that hierarchy IS patriarchy. She also states that one enters a woman only group in order to be free of domination by men, since (she states) women cannot dominate men, but men dominate women.
I raised the issue with her of how many women use “women only” groups as an arena where they dominate other women. She replied that this is because they have too much patriarchy in them, and that it takes a while to get it out.
I think the issue represented by the title of your post is also a situation where women take the opportunity to dominate and exert control over others, using various issues as a pretext.
Actually, I don’t agree at all that hierarchy=patriarchy. Often a respect for formal station and hierarchy is the only thing that separates us from patriarchy, since otherwise everybody reverts to the more “natural” roles they had within their families of origin, where (of course) all adult women are, by necessity, mothers.
So, I really think we need to get away from female interest groups and the fear of hierarchy. It’s not that we should be craven and desire hierarchy for its own sake. It’s just that formal social structure gives women an opportunity to be recognised for something other than being mothers (or, motherly).
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“I raised the issue with her of how many women use “women only” groups as an arena where they dominate other women. She replied that this is because they have too much patriarchy in them, and that it takes a while to get it out.”
– And here is her own sexism coming out. There is nothing specifically male or female in the desire to dominate. It is nothing but an issue of personal psychology. Right now, I’m traveling with my sister. We both have very domineering dictatorial personalities. We are also both very much aware of it and make enormous efforts not to let this natural tendency interfere with our trip. And the efforts pay off really well.
“So, I really think we need to get away from female interest groups and the fear of hierarchy. It’s not that we should be craven and desire hierarchy for its own sake. It’s just that formal social structure gives women an opportunity to be recognised for something other than being mothers (or, motherly).”
– I agree with you completely!
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For instance, she states that hierarchy IS patriarchy. She also states that one enters a woman only group in order to be free of domination by men, since (she states) women cannot dominate men, but men dominate women.
I raised the issue with her of how many women use “women only” groups as an arena where they dominate other women. She replied that this is because they have too much patriarchy in them, and that it takes a while to get it out.
I’m inclined to say that all patriarchy is hierarchy but not all hierarchy is patriarchy. For one thing, the explanation you were given is quite a kludge. For another thing, if true, it makes women’s space not only a solution to some problems, but a “magic bullet” type solution to the problem which is identified as most central. Except of course when it fails due to internalized patriarchy… Now there is a thing (and I do think it’s an actual thing) called “kyriarchy” out there, which I understand to mean “lording it over people.” At least the people who came up with that word use it as a general term for a general phenomenon.
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Response to n8chz:
I think the only way to solve the problem of oppression through identities is to deny identities, not to dig into them still deeper. I’m not Marcusian in that sense. It was surely a failed experiment to expect people to start a revolution on the basis of their identities in relation to historical oppression. It’s not that there haven’t been revolutions of that sort, but they generally make things worse. It really is a spectacle to behold. People are so immersed in their petty guilt complexes and in the power trips entailed in guilt-tripping others, that they cannot see that this leads nowhere practical and just makes things worse. People like Mugabe love having this arrow in their quiver, because they can keep committing atrocities (his party’s youth members burned alive the 12 year old son of an opposition politician, in his house, recently.) His name was Christpower Maisiri. Nobody in the West will say anything about anything that involves ‘black on black’ violence, because…colonialism.
So you have a lot of self-righteous people morally purifying themselves from within, and having a righteous old time They know how to discipline members of their own fold and exert authoritative power over them, but they don’t dare to comment on the issues relating to the world at large. That would be…um…sinful…overstepping the boundaries… losing the pleasures of the masochism involved in hair shirt whiteness.
And we are to believe that this isn’t a meta form of domination? That it is not part of the process of continual colonisation of our minds?
Well, yes we are. And mea culpa and all that. See you in hell.
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Because men love that when a woman uses a men’s bathrooms.
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“Because men love that when a woman uses a men’s bathrooms.”
– Again with the generalizations? this is boring.
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About the “cis” prefix:
1) n8chz is correct etymologically speaking. cis is just the opposite of trans
2) The problem is that this prefix is created by a trans individual.
Do Not Call Me Cisgender. You Do Not Have My Permission To Name Me.
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” The problem is that this prefix is created by a trans individual”
Yeah, and it must really suck to get labelled by the people you are actively oppressing.
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So, Whites are great when they called Black people “niggers” and men are great when they call women “bitches”?
Please embrace my patriarchical jendah identity, or else I call you a twansphobic.
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And I’m a fucking snowflake too!
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“Cisgender is a word used by persons who have decided to name me without my permission. You do not get to name me without my permission. Do not call me cisgender. That is offensive to me. I am offended that you consider that you have power over me, and can name me.”
– Where do you find all these articles by petulant, overgrown drama queens? Does this person not realize how idiotic she sounds? Why is anybody supposed to care about her bout of whining? Jeez. . .
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“So, Whites are great when they called Black people “niggers” and men are great when they call women “bitches”? ”
Once again, your idiocy causes you to miss the obvious point.
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But if a woman doesn’t want a man to be in this women’s bathroom, he should respects her.
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And when an entire group of women tell a man that he knows jackshit about feminism and should stop humiliating himself in public by pretending that he does, it’s time for him to shut up.
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Okay spell this out for you in short little words, so that even someone as intellectually deficient as yourself can parse it:
No one is talking about letting men use women’s washroom.
Transsexual women are not men.
Get that through your empty fucking head.
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Humans should respect humans. Let it be written and let it be said.
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Patriarchy is hierarchy but hierarchy is not necessarily patriarchy.
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Hooray! Citing hate sites wins arguments, right?
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Okay, so nigger cisgender bitches are cool! 😉
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“No one is talking about letting men use women’s washroom.
Transsexual women are not men.”
Okay, no problem if you think that. So, trans women are not women.
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“No one is talking about letting men use women’s washroom”
Except if a het men decides to identify himself as a woman, so he can go to women’s bathrooms.
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Oh sweet Jesus, enough with the toilets already! Why, why, why is this such a huge issue? Why does anybody care where other people pee?
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Why, in particular, does a man care about this issue when no woman on here seems to?
I shall conclude that Gendron is jealous of the fact that I am allowed in women’s washrooms whereas he is not.
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This is an issue because het men would love to go to women’s bathrooms and because there’s some trans women asshole here that want to piss and shit on women’s bathrooms.
So, men should have the right to go to women prisons?
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“This is an issue because het men would love to go to women’s bathrooms”
– So? Who cares?
“So, men should have the right to go to women prisons?”
– They already do in the capacity of wardens, visitors, lawyers, etc. However, the connection between toilets and prisons escapes me. I’m getting a feeling you have a very special relationship with toilets. Do you think about them a lot? Do they appear to you in dreams? Are there any toilet fantasies you experience?
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“I shall conclude that Gendron is jealous of the fact that I am allowed in women’s washrooms whereas he is not.”
No, because het men (and this includes myself) could just decide to identify themselves as women and they would be allowed to go there.
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“Why, in particular, does a man care about this issue when no woman on here seems to?.”
I care because I’m against gender identity.
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“Because I am against gender identity.”
Except obviously you are not since you keep ascribing behaviours to entire groups of people based on their genders. Shut it.
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This comment is not all by be, but I agree with it: Transjacktivists try to ‘distance’ themselves (and they are right to do so) from the cross-dressers and other perverts. However, transjacktivism ‘rights’ for access to female-only spaces does not specifically exclude these obvious predators, it will give the predators more ease in accessing female-only spaces.
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This comment is not all by me, but I agree with it: Transjacktivists try to ‘distance’ themselves (and they are right to do so) from the cross-dressers and other perverts. However, transjacktivism ‘rights’ for access to female-only spaces does not specifically exclude these obvious predators, it will give the predators more ease in accessing female-only spaces.
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“You know what’s a right that everybody else has but transsexual people do not? THE RIGHT TO SHIT IN A PUBLIC BATHROOM WITHOUT HAVING TO WORRY ABOUT BEING BEATEN TO DEATH!
Christ! Arguing with you is like arguing with a mollusc; there’s no point!”
This a male problem. Women should not accomodate non-women for a male problem. Please start fighting against male violence instead to piss and shit in women bathrooms!
You’re a fucking asshole.
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Oh please, keep mansplaining to women about what they should or should not allow. It’s caused you to be held in such high esteem so far.
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Okay, women should not be required to accomodate non-women for a male problem.
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“Okay, women should not be required to accomodate non-women for a male problem.”
– This same argument can very easily be used to justify employers firing pregnant women on the spot.
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Holy crap, a transplainer who is blaming me for mansplaining…
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You are a man talking about women’s issues.
I am a transsexual talking about transsexual issues.
Are you literally so fucking moronic that you can’t figure out the difference?
…Actually, you know what? Don’t answer that.
The sad fact of the matter is that you are a weighty contender for being the saddest, stupidest, most willfully obtuse, empty headed sack of human offal that I have ever had the misfortune of meeting.
That you keep repeating the same assinine arguments that have already been refuted a thousand times is itself proof that I was right in my initial belief that engaging with you is a fool’s errand.
I am not going to respond to any further comments that you make, because you may as well be a random number generator programmed to spit out idiotic transphobic bumper-sticker slogans.
May whatever god you believe in have mercy on your soul.
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“This same argument can very easily be used to justify employers firing pregnant women on the spot.”
That kind of employers are part of a male problem. Pregnancy is a patriarchical problem but not only a male problem.
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In a society, as opposed to in a jungle, people accommodate each other all the time. It is the most normal thing in the world. These petulant exclamations about women not needing to accommodate anybody else infantilizes women and is offensive to us.
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David, can you explain why this subject is so important to you on such a profoundly emotional level? I find it impossible to believe that anybody can really ge so worked up about who visits which toilet. Why do you care so much about an issue that will never concern you?
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This thread is on its way to become one of the most popular ever, and I have no idea why.
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“Except obviously you are not since you keep ascribing behaviours to entire groups of people based on their genders. Shut it.”
I have never said that gender roles have no effect on anyone. Gender roles have clearly an effect on almost everyone but I want to eradicate gender roles because gender roles are a product of the patriarchy.
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“You are a man talking about women’s issues.
I am a transsexual talking about transsexual issues.”
So as a non-woman, you should not talk about women’s issues? This is a nonsense.
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“David, can you explain why this subject is so important to you on such a profoundly emotional level? I find it impossible to believe that anybody can really ge so worked up about who visits which toilet. Why do you care so much about an issue that will never concern you?”
1) I’m against gender roles and patriarchy, and (except for unassigned gender trans) trangenderism is a product a genderism that is a product of the patriarchy.
2) I suffer personally from my alleged “men gender role”, and many patriarchy-lover women are condescending against me for that.
3) I know how men can be so rude against women and that’s the main reason why I have almost no men friends (except two of them). I know that the women’s bathroom fantasy is very common among het men. I have to admit that I have myself this fantasy (and many het men are fucking liars about this) but I never did anything like that because my parents educate me properly about this.
4) One day, I was interviewed by cops (and I’ve had to give them an ADN sample) because my face looks like some fucking man who were hiding in women’s toilets to peep other women.
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“One day, I was interviewed by cops (and I’ve had to give them an ADN sample) because my face looks like some fucking man who were hiding in women’s toilets to peep other women.”
– You should have just said this from the start! I am very sorry that this happened to you. It must have been very disturbing.
” have to admit that I have myself this fantasy (and many het men are fucking liars about this) ”
– There is nothing wrong about fantasies.
” I suffer personally from my alleged “men gender role”, and many patriarchy-lover women are condescending against me for that.”
– I have the same experience, so I understand you completely.
“I’m against gender roles and patriarchy, and (except for unassigned gender trans) trangenderism is a product a genderism that is a product of the patriarchy.”
– Every single transgender person I have ever met is passionately against gender roles and patriarchy. These are your allies, not enemies. The patriarchy wants all of us, progressive, anti-gender people, to see each otehr as enemies so that we waste our energy into fighting each other instead of fighting the real enemy.
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I agree that there’s nothing wrong about fantasies, except if unconsented violence is implied. (even though I’m against policing fantasies)
“Every single transgender person I have ever met is passionately against gender roles and patriarchy. ”
At least the vast majority of them, of course. I have no big issues about trans people (as they’re generally the worst suffering victims of genderism), but I’m against transgenderism because I’m against genderism. I can’t support an ideology consisting to consider as an empowering behavior to act like the “other gender” because you suffer with your “gender at birth”, because I’m against gender.
Acting the other gender is not an anti-genderism behavior, choosing to assume no gender role is an anti-genderism act.
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“I can’t support an ideology consisting to consider as an empowering behavior to act like the “other gender” ”
– This ideology does not exist, so we can all just rest easy from now on.
“choosing to assume no gender role is an anti-genderism act”
– Adopting the anti-scenario is as bad as adopting the scenario.
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I agree that there’s nothing wrong about fantasies, except if unconsented violence is implied. (even though I’m against policing fantasies)
“Every single transgender person I have ever met is passionately against gender roles and patriarchy. ”
At least the vast majority of them, of course. I have no big issues about trans people (as they’re generally the worst suffering victims of genderism), but I’m against transgenderism because I’m against genderism. I can’t support an ideology consisting to consider as an empowering behavior to act like the “other gender” because you suffer with your “gender at birth”, because I’m against gender.
Acting like the other gender is not an anti-genderism behavior, choosing to assume no gender role is an anti-genderism act.
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“This thread is on its way to become one of the most popular ever, and I have no idea why.”
It’s my fault! 😉
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Yes, there’s nothing put together by womon that can’t be improved by the ravings of an arrogant patriarchal coloniser. Radfems don’t need your help you moron, we get by fine on our own.
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Do you have some kind of argument, some kind of content about what I said before, instead of vomiting insults, you androphobe fartshit?
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[…] few days ago (as part of a lengthy discussion which is deeply not worth the read), Clarissa said something very interesting on the subject of (Trans-Exclusionary/Eliminationist) Radical […]
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“choosing to assume no gender role is an anti-genderism act”
– Adopting the anti-scenario is as bad as adopting the scenario.”
Okay, I wasn’t clear enough. Choosing no gender role is not “doing absolutely nothing that corresponds to a gender role”, it’s just doing what you want instead of doing what gender roles ask you to do or not do. I have no problem with a man/woman who likes football and read “The English Patient”.
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Why is this man ‘Gendron’ allowed to tramp all over this predominantly womon’s space and attempt to dominate it? He is pulling the usual patriarchal trick of colonising and dominating in order to neutralise our solidarity. He should take his male privilege and fuck off; he’s not wanted.
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Apparently, you didn’t read attentively what I wrote. I’m against male “privilege”.
What you said is even worse than “thevenerablecorvex” shit.
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So I’m not listening attentively enough to you am I?
What can have come over me, not listening to a man; how can I be so ungrateful?
I’ll just give myself a slapped wrist shall I? Or like a lot of men, perhaps you’d enjoy doing that.
You’re worse than any sexist misogynistic redneck. Just piss off, and stay away (big neon captal letters: YOU’RE NOT WANTED). Is the dim glow of your pre-simian consciousness starting to get it?
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You must praising the holy jendah identity, or you will be called a Twanzphobic or misogynistic redneck.
Again, some androphobe hatred from your part! I will not obey to your man-like intimidation tactics, you fucktard!
“I’ll just give myself a slapped wrist shall I? Or like a lot of men, perhaps you’d enjoy doing that.”
I would certainly not enjoy that, clearly. Perhaps you don’t know anything about what I was talking about here. Non-women should not go to women bathrooms, because men rapists would be incented to go to women bathrooms if you leave non-women going there. Are you disagreeing with that or you have nothing else to say than vomiting androphobic insults?
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“Non-women should not go to women bathrooms, because men rapists would be incented to go to women bathrooms if you leave non-women going there.”
– There is zero evidence that marginalizing trans people has lowered the incidence of rape.
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If this is the case, why men could not go to women bathrooms?
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For the same reason why they can’t wear skirts or women don’t wear ties. Tradition.
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And this tradition embraces the gender identity.
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So if you are against gender identity, you should be against gender-based bathrooms, right?
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“So if you are against gender identity, you should be against gender-based bathrooms, right?”
In a context of no gender identity, I would be in favor of non-policing this. But I’m also in favor to let women decide when they want without harming others.
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Sorry Clarissa, I used the word ‘privilege’ before I read your blog introduction. I won’t use it again.
Sarah.
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Chirurgical psychiatry is bad psychiatry:
http://anntagonist.wordpress.com/2013/03/10/reality-check/
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Seriously, where do you find all these craziest?
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You said that there’s no such thing as a mental illness without psychological reasons, but you’re in favor of a chirgical treatment to cure a mental condition when the Holy Jendah Identity is implied.
“Gender Identity Disorder is a psychiatric condition and it’s the only psychiatric condition that is ‘cured’ by altering a person’s physical body so that it more closely fits to what their delusions tell them it should be.
Imagine if anorexia was treated like GID? Severely underweight women would be offered liposuction so their bodies can more closely match their hearts desire.
People with Body Dysmorphic Disorder are not treated with cosmetic surgery; they are given therapy.
Let’s stop pretending that hormones and surgery are a cure for Gender Identity Disorder. Let’s stop pretending hormones and surgery are sufficient for a complete ‘sex change’.
”
Another question: why trans men want almost all to continue to go to women bathrooms?
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“You said that there’s no such thing as a mental illness without psychological reasons, but you’re in favor of a chirgical treatment to cure a mental condition when the Holy Jendah Identity is implied.”
– I believe in the right of people to do whatever they want with their bodies. This is one of the basic principles of my entire worldview. I don’t care what drives the need to do whatever with one’s body. The right to do so is sacrosanct.
“Imagine if anorexia was treated like GID? Severely underweight women would be offered liposuction so their bodies can more closely match their hearts desire.”
– It is their right to get any surgical treatment they want.
“People with Body Dysmorphic Disorder are not treated with cosmetic surgery; they are given therapy.”
– Against their will?? This is simply not true. Therapy is only effective when it is actively sought by a patient.
“Let’s stop pretending that hormones and surgery are a cure for Gender Identity Disorder. ”
– As I said many times, I don’t believe in “disorders.”
“Another question: why trans men want almost all to continue to go to women bathrooms?”
– I suggest we stop discussing the bathrooms because that is seriously boring.
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“I believe in the right of people to do whatever they want with their bodies. This is one of the basic principles of my entire worldview. I don’t care what drives the need to do whatever with one’s body. The right to do so is sacrosanct.”
I agree. No problem with this. So schizophrenic people should have the right to take as much drugs as they want, even though this is not the best treatment as you said before.
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” So schizophrenic people should have the right to take as much drugs as they want, even though this is not the best treatment as you said before.”
– Of course. This is a very strange way of forming the sentence because they do have that right already. Anybody can guzzle as many pills as they like. The US society celebrates that choice more than pretty much any other.
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“Severely underweight women would be offered liposuction so their bodies can more closely match their hearts desire.”
– It is their right to get any surgical treatment they want.”
Okay, but this surgical treatment will be deadly, so no same doctor would ever offer that.
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no saNe doctor…
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“- Of course. This is a very strange way of forming the sentence because they do have that right already. Anybody can guzzle as many pills as they like. The US society celebrates that choice more than pretty much any other.”
And I’m in a favor of that choice. But I don’t think that a surgical treatment is the best treatment for a psychological condition. Psychological therapy should be offered first, consensually.
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The problem is that the only way any psychological treatment has a remote chance of working is when a person says, ‘I have a psychological problem, I need help.” Otherwise, it’s all a huge waste of time.
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Seriously, where do you find all these craziest?
I was wondering the same thing.
Let’s stop pretending hormones and surgery are sufficient for a complete ‘sex change’.
People who do this are well aware of the limitations. It’s called making the best of a bad situation.
Another question: why trans men want almost all to continue to go to women bathrooms?
If by trans men you mean transsexual men I can assure you the exact opposite is true. Most likely you are referring to the tight message discipline among anti-transsexual feminists of the type you keep linking to, in which (as in socially conservative rhetoric) one is careful to be utterly consistent to use pronouns consistent with sex as assigned at birth. Some persons identify both with this group and with transmen or FTM, and the anti-transsexual faction of the women’s movement, of course, classifies FTM individuals as women. What are the motives of these particular FTM identified persons or trans men I am not sure, although it seems to be to prove some point. At any rate, these are not the majority of self-identified trans men, by a long, long shot.
So schizophrenic people should have the right to take as much drugs as they want, even though this is not the best treatment as you said before.
It is when going off their meds that persons diagnosed schizophrenic end up at odds with the authorities. It is debatable whether this is reasonable if one is demonstrably a threat to others, but a transsexual condition is never a threat to others.
Okay, but this surgical treatment [liposuction on the underweight] will be deadly, so no same doctor would ever offer that.
Sex reassignment surgery is not life-threatening or health-compromising.
But I don’t think that a surgical treatment is the best treatment for a psychological condition. Psychological therapy should be offered first, consensually.
Would it absolutely kill you to read anything in the actual clinical literature about the long history of people seeking, on their own initiative, diligently, persistently and repeatedly, psychological treatment for the situation of being transsexual, before editorializing on a subject about which it is obvious you know nothing at all?
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“Would it absolutely kill you to read anything in the actual clinical literature about the long history of people seeking, on their own initiative, diligently, persistently and repeatedly, psychological treatment for the situation of being transsexual, before editorializing on a subject about which it is obvious you know nothing at all?”
– No, my friend, it’s useless. I tried to the best of my ability but nothing worked. You see how long this thread is. I’ve been hoping that at least one person could be helped to see how out-of-this-world unreasonable the transphobic position is. However, transphobia has become an identity-building device in this case (see the number of times the exact same expression is repeated.) So it’s hopeless.
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Chirurgical psychiatry is bad psychiatry:
Psychiatric chirurgery is brain chirurgery. Sex reassignment chirurgery is in no sense psychiatric.
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“Psychiatric chirurgery is brain chirurgery. Sex reassignment chirurgery is in no sense psychiatric.”
Okay, I should call it “psychological surgery” or “Cosmetic surgery is bad psychology”, or something like that. Please note than I’m not against those who choose to have a surgery, I’m against medical specialists and their transjacktivists allies who seek no other alternatives than a “moving to the other jendah surgery”, especially with non-adults.
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” I’m against medical specialists and their transjacktivists allies who seek no other alternatives than a “moving to the other jendah surgery””
– How can they seek alternatives if they are not the ones who need treatment? Haven’t we agreed already that any psychological treatment has to be actively sought by the patient?
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Replace “seek” by “propose” or “offer”.
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Didn’t we agree yesterday that these offers are completely useless because the only psychological help that works is the kind that is actively sought by a patient?
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And Gender Identity Disorder is not a mental disorder.
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“The problem is that the only way any psychological treatment has a remote chance of working is when a person says, ‘I have a psychological problem, I need help.” Otherwise, it’s all a huge waste of time.”
Of course.
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It’s useless to debate with someone who parrots everytime the twanzphobia strawman, you’re right. This can’t be a rational debate, except with n8chz,
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“Didn’t we agree yesterday that these offers are completely useless because the only psychological help that works is the kind that is actively sought by a patient?”
Yes, but choices should be given.
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“Yes, but choices should be given.”
– What does this mean? Do you believe that there is a functional adult in the Western world who is not aware that psychological therapy is an option in any life situation?
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I don’t believe that. But I have this question for you: is enhancing boobs often a good thing psychologically speaking? (I don’t talk about difformed nor ablated boobs, I talked about normal boobs)
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” But I have this question for you: is enhancing boobs often a good thing psychologically speaking?”
– It causes neither psychological benefits nor psychological damage. Just like tattoos.
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Is enhancing boobs the best treatment to fight against the women gender identity mantra of “you should have big boobs to be a real woman and attract male”?
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As a woman, I have to insist that this mantra does not exist. Life is very hostile to big-chested women. Capitalism is not interested in accommodating us. I have no idea why that is but the hostility to us on the part of the clothing and lingerie industries is enormous.
Have you seen any fashion shows at all? Have you seen any women with big boobs there? I definitely haven’t. Have you been to Victoria’s Secret or La Senza or seen their ads? They don’t carry anything even remotely in my size.
So please, please, let’s spare me these completely fake stories of horrible patriarchal oppression experienced by small-breasted women. They can just walk into any store and buy any piece of clothing they want. I can’t. They open any magazine and see models who look just like them. I don’t. And for me a comfortable bra is not an issue of vanity. It is an absolute health necessity. This, of course, is something that one doesn’t even understand unless one hits at least the DD cup.
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So, why there’s so many women who undergo breast enhancing surgery, especially when they’re married?
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“So, why there’s so many women who undergo breast enhancing surgery”
– For the same reason so many men undergo penis-enhancing torture or ass-liposuction: low self-esteem.
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And a chirurgical procedure is the best way to cure low self-esteem?
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“And a chirurgical procedure is the best way to cure low self-esteem?”
– Who told you that these patients have any interest in curing their low self-esteem?
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“Who told you that these patients have any interest in curing their low self-esteem?”
Nobody. You’re absolutely right on this.
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@n8chz
I mean transsexual men. I have no problem to use pronouns assigned to the gender identity.
“People who do this are well aware of the limitations. It’s called making the best of a bad situation.”
Okay, but are you sure that this is the best solution?
“It is when going off their meds that persons diagnosed schizophrenic end up at odds with the authorities. It is debatable whether this is reasonable if one is demonstrably a threat to others, but a transsexual condition is never a threat to others.”
I agree but, as argued by Clarissa, there’s too much medical prescription/drugs used as a psychological treatment. Gender change surgery is such a medical prescription.
“Would it absolutely kill you to read anything in the actual clinical literature about the long history of people seeking, on their own initiative, diligently, persistently and repeatedly, psychological treatment for the situation of being transsexual, before editorializing on a subject about which it is obvious you know nothing at all?
”
I have no big problem with those who choose the surgical option. The problem is when others see that as the best cure.
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…
Okay, but are you sure that this is the best solution?
Oh, yeah. Very much so.
…
I have no big problem with those who choose the surgical option. The problem is when others see that as the best cure.
This is exactly analogous to the debate within the pro-life community on whether the abortion patient, the abortion provider, or both, should be prosecuted on homicide charges.
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Choosing the other gender is the best solution, really?
I would never support criminal charges against that kind of chirurgical treatments, unless if it occurs to a child.
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A conservative literary critic and college professor
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