Tolerating Discomfort

Reader valter07 made a brilliant comment about Russia:

Believing in sanctions involves unjustified projecting of Western mindset onto Russians. Those who believe in sanctions essentially are saying that West would surrender if such sanctions were applied to the West. It is testimony to West’s unwillingness to tolerate any discomfort in the name of its principles. It is more productive to think of Russia as analog of some fundamentalist country or organization – i.e. a bunch of people prepared for significant degree of self-sacrifice.

This reader is absolutely right. People used to listing trigger warnings and counting “microaggressions” are not likely to win this game. I’d say that the complete incapacity to tolerate any sort of discomfort has become the organizing principle of the West. And I’m not saying this is necessarily a bad thing. However, it is a mistake to project this mindset onto others.

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34 responses to “Tolerating Discomfort”

zinemin

April 16, 2014

If Russia is fundamentalist, what is the fundamentalism exactly about? I guess that is what I find hard to grasp. Is it just nationalism or something more? It is very hard to understand for me why an average citizen in Moscow would be ready to make sacrifices so that the already huge country can assimilate part of another independent country. How does that benefit him? Why do the Russians not have other priorities, like better health care, education etc. ? Is this the aftereffect of the probably massive Soviet propaganda that many people experienced earlier in life, and still partially believe in? It is very weird, because the actual content of that ideology seems to be gone… so what do those fundamentalists believe in that makes them ready to make sacrifices?

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Clarissa

April 16, 2014

“If Russia is fundamentalist, what is the fundamentalism exactly about?”

– This is a very good question. They are a culture that is deeply wounded (and has been for a very very long time) by the feeling of not being recognized as great enough, important enough, special enough. They need, more than anything, for the world to gasp, “Oh yes! You are the most special ever!”

“It is very hard to understand for me why an average citizen in Moscow would be ready to make sacrifices so that the already huge country can assimilate part of another independent country. How does that benefit him?”

– I actually heard from many Russian people that the knowledge that they are a huge country, the biggest in the world, is extremely important to them. They say they felt the loss of the colonies as if somebody cut parts of their bodies off.

“Why do the Russians not have other priorities, like better health care, education etc.”

– Theirs are already the best. Definitely better than what Americans and Europeans get. (In their opinion, I mean.) Now the goal is to make everybody in the world recognize that.

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1. zinemin
  
  April 16, 2014
  
  Thanks for the explanation. Wow, this way of thinking is just so foreign to me. Coming from a really small unimportant country I really do not understand that the wish to live in a great or important country could be worth even the tiniest sacrifice on the part of a normal person. If you have some noble seeming idea that you want to sacrifice for, fine, but this is not even a noble idea. Actually it is very boring.
  
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2. musteryou
  
  April 16, 2014
  
  If Russia is narcissistic, surely all that would be required would be to pat it on the head and say, “good dog”? Why withhold such simple and basic needs from someone or something?
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    April 17, 2014
    
    For a true narcissist, that’s never enough. I think your way of analyzing Russia as a country with a narcissistic wound is brilliant. Like any good narcissist, they erupt in a tantrum on a regular basis.
    
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    1. musteryou
      
      April 17, 2014
      
      ah, but I thought that was your own implicit critique. I don’t know anything about russia, actually, but perhaps Mugabe has a narcissistic wound.
      
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valter07

April 16, 2014

If someone believes “we are the spiritual beacon of the humankind, and have impeccable integrity, not like those in decadent West”, it does not really matter if this attitude is backed by well-defined religion or not. But chances are, with further convergence of church and state, it will be backed by Russian Orthodox branch of Christianity. Which, of course, is the only true religion. 🙂 When I used the word “fundamentalism”, I meant it may be useful for understanding current attitude of Russia to imagine something like HAMAS, who is quite content to devote disproportional effort to shelling Israel… In part because it is an issue of principle for them. And if they are poor – that’s Israeli’s fault anyway, right?
And it is not about territory. Territory is only important to the extent it is free of Western influence. (unless said territory has oil or gas) It is 95% about sticking it to the West and telling the West “we can do everything you do and then some more, and we are actually greater than you, because we are more honest and do not hide behind BS about “democracy”.
And yes, didn’t you know Russia has the best education system in the world??? The system which for so many years secured military-technological parity? The West, who is only capable of teaching kids tolerance to homosexuals and other questionable practices, is trying to ruin Russian superior education system, but the Russians will prevail!!!

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1. cliff arroyo
  
  April 16, 2014
  
  “If someone believes “we are the spiritual beacon of the humankind, and have impeccable integrity, not like those in decadent West”, it does not really matter if this attitude is backed by well-defined religion or not”
  
  In fact, the need to tie fundamentalism to a religion (or pseudo-religion) is another sign of not getting out of the western grooves of thought.
  
  I think I have an idea of what (rank and file) Russian motivations are but it’s hard to lexicalize in English. The closest I can come to it is “self-righteous anger” (but aimed at the universe at large rather than identifiable entities which are poor substitutes for an existential feeling of being robbed of one’s birthright).
  
  Read the Daily Mail* every day for a few weeks paying attention to the articles designed to rile people up, magnify the emotions they’re meant to conjure up a few dozen (or hundred) times and then remove any particular focus for the anger about the indignity and injustice of it all and you’ll be fairly close.
  
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2. zinemin
  
  April 16, 2014
  
  Curious. I guess slowly I start to get it. I guess my mistake was to believe that Russia is struggling and dreaming to become like the West, like is probably more the case in other Eastern European countries. Instead, if what you say is right, the Russian actually already feel morally superior. Now they want actions to follow this feeling of superiority, to confirm that it is founded in something.
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    April 17, 2014
    
    “I guess my mistake was to believe that Russia is struggling and dreaming to become like the West”
    
    – Oh no, not in the very least. Their identity is built around being different from the “horrible” degraded West.
    
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April 16, 2014

“If Russia is fundamentalist, what is the fundamentalism exactly about?”

morreth wrote in Russian her answer:

http://morreth.livejournal.com/2332094.html#comments
http://morreth.livejournal.com/2334889.html#comments

We are social creatures, and have desires not only “as a person”, but also “as a resident of Dnipropetrovsk ” or “as a Ukrainian.”
[… ]
Why don’t I desire to join Taganrog to Ukraine? Because I really do not see how it will contribute to the improvement of pavement on the street
[…]
But . If I were still stuck in the phase, “You have no right to desire anything for yourself,” it is quite possible that, through smart-ass system of psychological defenses, I could want Taganrog . If I had no way to influence the improvement of roads, no possibility of trips to Europe and everywhere , and instead heard a lot about Taganrog , I would , perhaps, direct my frustration at Taganrog .

But a man who knows exactly what he wants, won’t be fooled this way .

Мы – существа социальные, и есть желания, которые я испытываю не только «как человек», но и «как житель Днепропетровска» или «как украинка».
[…]
Почему у меня нет желаний нащот присоединить к Украине, скажем, Таганрог? А потому что я решительно не вижу, как это поспособствует улучшению дорожного покрытия на улице братьев Трофимовых или возможности издать, скажем, сборник Иссы. Ну вообще не вижу, никак.

Но. Если бы у меня по-прежнему в голове торчал гвоздь на тему «ты не имеешь права ничего желать для себя», то, вполне возможно, через хитрожопую систему психологических защит я бы могла и захотеть Таганрог. Ну, скажем, если бы мне перекрыли все, вообще все, возможности повлиять на улучшение дорог и издание Иссы, любые поездки в Европу и вообще везде, а вместо этого много лили в уши про братский таганрогский народ, я бы, может, и смогла направить свою фрустрацию на Таганрог.

Но с человеком, который точно знает, что ему нужно, такой номер уже не прокатит.

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Ed123

April 16, 2014

If the Soviet Union had been able to provide Soviet citizens the comforts that Western countries provide to its citizens, I highly doubt it would have collapsed. A country with a prosperous economy and a happy populance does not just implode.

Russians have already tasted the sweet milky taste of Western comforts. The moment they have to go back to the queues to acquire basic staples I doubt they will be willing to put up with it. They did not put it with it under Soviet times, I don’t think they will put up with it now or in the future.

I think it’s very important to understand that Putin has presided over strong economic growth and prosperity in the Russian economy. This has allowed him to keep people happy and content. But the moment the Russian economy takes a dive, things will change.
I don’t presume to be an expert on Russian politics and culture and I know they are prideful people, but from what I have been able to observe, there may be something more important to them than pride…money. Sure, poor people may get poorer, but once the middle class, the oligarchs, and people in power start losing money, they will not be happy.

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cliff arroyo

April 17, 2014

“The moment they have to go back to the queues to acquire basic staples I doubt they will be willing to put up with it”

How cute! You think they’ll have a choice! Putin has steadily been criminalizing any open opposition to any of his policies and shutting down any media that deviates from the official view. By the time people will want to protest it will be too late and, as in soviet times, a few prominent hits (that can’t be officially traced to the government) and disappearances will intimidate the vast majority of Russians (never known for tactical brilliance in protesting government actions) will settle placidly down in weary acceptance.

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1. Clarissa
  
  April 17, 2014
  
  Again, let’s stop judging the FSU people according to our own standards. Let’s not assume that they hated the queues because we’d hate them. Many people remember the Soviet queues fondly.
  
  When in the 90s we’d have blackouts when Russia would turn off the gas, the only person I know who was angry was me. Everybody else enjoyed sitting in the dark and shivering and discussed it as a fun experience and a great way to have some quality family time.
  
  I know it’s incomprehensible and I emigrated because I couldn’t comprehend, but that’s how things are. A Western person values prosperity and material abundance highly, and I’m a Western person, so I do, too. But for people of other cultures it just isn’t that important.
  
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Clarissa

April 17, 2014

The problem is, there is no middle class in Russia. Those few thousand people who came into the streets in Moscow to protest the rigged elections in 2011-12 are the extent of the middle class in Russia. And the oligarchs are all puppets and have zero influence and zero claim to “their” money. Khodorkovsky once thought he could have a say and the right to use the money he’d been given as he wished but 10 years in jail showed him who’s boss.

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April 16, 2014

Now read on Israeli site – look on the photo of the letter:
http://www.mako.co.il/news-world/international/Article-863274052e96541004.htm?sCh=3d385dd2dd5d4110&pId=1434139730

Three unknown men with a Russian flag put those leters, while a mayor says he didn’t sign the letters.

Russians talk about Russofobia, while putting Holocaust-style letters.

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April 16, 2014

Law making anyone calling for boycott on Israel liable for damages comes under judges’ scrutiny.

A nine-judge panel of the High Court of Justice on Sunday mulled striking three words (in Hebrew) from the law that allows any party to sue any other party calling for a boycott of Israel.

In hearing the petition against the so-called “Boycott Law,” the court focused on the phrase at the end of the law, which specifies that a lawsuit may be filed against anyone who calls for an economic, cultural or academic boycott against the State of Israel or “area under its control,” the last part referring to the territories over the Green Line.

The controversial law was approved in July 2011, against the advice of the Knesset’s legal adviser.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.574597

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Alexander

April 16, 2014

Clarissa, if you could let me know if this makes sense, let me know. It makes sense to me on a theoretical level, but having never lived among the Russians, I’d like to know how theory fares with practice.

It’s been explained to me that as Russia has no geographical barriers beyond vastness, and Russia has a history of being overrun (with varying measure of success) from both east and west, the Russians have a national fundamental need to always be getting bigger – the premise is that *someone* is going to be expanding across the Siberian/Northern European plain, and it’s always preferable that that someone is them.

Any loss of territory therefore is seen as the “first step” towards an invasion, no matter how tiny. This is also why the Kremlin is seen so differently between east and west: to Americans and Europeans, it is the very picture of an enormous, secretive, oppressive government; note how much more ‘hidden away’ the White House is compared to the Capital, or Number 10. On the other hand, to Russians it is a source of strength, a bulwark made by men because nature has not given them mountains or oceans.

Like I said – I can see the logic. But as this somewhat relates to the topic here I was wondering what you thought. Thanks.

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Clarissa

April 17, 2014

Alexander: this is an interesting idea. I was discussing this with my colleague from Ukraine just recently and we both feel very baffled by Russia’s incessant need for more territory when they don’t have enough people to populate the territory they already have. Size seems to be the only characteristic of their country where they undoubtedly are the world’s leader, and they are intensely attached to this idea of enormity. To me, it’s weird and not easy to understand. I don’t think it’s fear of invasion or not only that. There’s got to be something else here but I’m not sure what it is.

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1. el
  
  April 17, 2014
  
  Israel too feels need for more territory, but at least we are a small country.
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    April 17, 2014
    
    In Israel there is a practical issue of needing space to settle people. And that’s definitely not the case in Russia.
    
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2. el
  
  April 17, 2014
  
  Don’t we have space in Negev, even if it’s a desert?
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    April 17, 2014
    
    You are asking me? 🙂
    
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musteryou

April 16, 2014

why would you not necessarily say it was a bad thing?

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April 17, 2014

No more local independence in Russia: instead of mayoral elections, they will be appointed by other officials.

The Russian blogger thinks this Russian Duma’s decision will push Ukrainian town authorities to fight for staying in Ukraine, instead of joining Russian Federation, since they won’t want to be sent home and have their warm places given to comers from Russia. Also, he notes that some non-democratic regimes enable local elections to divert people’s attention from the central government, but Russia decided to choose another road.

Закон о полной отмене в России местного самоуправления принят Государственной Думой в первом чтении.
http://v-fedotov.livejournal.com/291083.html

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el

April 17, 2014

Do you think it’s because of Navalnuy? Why pass this law right now, when it hurts Russian propaganda’s interests in Ukraine?

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Clarissa

April 17, 2014

Yet another step in the direction of authoritarianism.

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cliff arroyo

April 17, 2014

“Again, let’s stop judging the FSU people according to our own standards. Let’s not assume that they hated the queues because we’d hate them. Many people remember the Soviet queues fondly”

Okay, I don’t necessarily think of Poland as very ‘western’ but it’s more western than the FSU because no one missed the endless lines at all. People had stories about things (funny or infuriating or tragic) that happened in the lines but nobody remembered them fondly, except for maybe the older ladies who made a living by shopping for people (helped by their knowledge of distribution routes and relationships between suppliers and stores that gave them extra knowledge about what could be bought when and where).

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Clarissa

April 17, 2014

Oh, they will bitch about the queues, of course. But I know they loved them. Anything to avoid working.

I’m sick today and on my way to urgent care, so maybe that’s why I’m so negative.

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1. Stille (@aperfectbalance)
  
  April 17, 2014
  
  Oh dear. Hope it turns out to be an easily fixable illness.
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    April 17, 2014
    
    I don’t even know what it can be, which is why it’s disturbing. I feel exactly what I did two days after the C-section. But there doesn’t seem to be any reason for that. I’m having tests done now.
    
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2. David Bellamy
  
  April 20, 2014
  
  I have spent a total of about 15 months in Poland. I was last there in 1979. And people were both resigned and annoyed by long queues. Much like we Americans are today about airport security.
  
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