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From IBHE: The Future of Higher Ed

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We had a deputy director of Illinois Board of Higher Education speak on campus today. He said the following:

In the nearest future, only rich people will get to go to real universities. Everybody else will get educated online. This is why mid-tier universities, such as ours, need to go online, period. This is what students want. This is what the state can afford.

Online education is as good as the real education because that’s what somebody said on some survey somewhere in the boondocks.  

If a state can keep at least one or two state universities in existence, that already will be a great achievement. Such universities will do no research because research prevents students from having access to professors [sic].

If academic programs don’t attract enough students to justify their existence, they should be eliminated.

We are losing our competitive edge on the world arena.

College degrees are no longer meaningful because people can get the same stuff for free online. Instead of a college degree, it makes more sense for students to present employers with a list of their marketable skills and a list of specific facts the student learned online.

What students know will become less important than what they can do.

Students need to access classes from their cell phones and in their cars because they come from diverse backgrounds. Classroom discussions, office hours with a professor, lectures, study groups, and papers will all be online.

Startup ventures can educate students better than colleges.

The bestest ever model of public university is Western Governors University. And besides, why should a credential from Microsoft University or the British Open University be less prestigious than one from a regional state college?

And if you don’t like this, you are an irrelevant outdated academic who will be forced out of the system.

The curtain.

P.S. No, I’m not punking you. I copy-pasted these statements from the PP delivered at the meeting, making cosmetic changes only, to save space.

P.P.S. I have only one question: why do you, Americans, hate yourselves so much? 

89 responses to “From IBHE: The Future of Higher Ed”

  1. el Avatar
    el

    // In the nearest future, only rich people will get to go to real universities. Everybody else will get educated online.

    If he is right, does it mean that “everybody else” will be left behind, become lumpenized?

    // This is what the state can afford.

    Does anybody explain why the state is becoming poorer and poorer as the time passes? Could lack of real education of its citizens contribute to that?

    // Startup ventures can educate students better than colleges.

    Reminded me of something. From 2010:

    Bill Gates: In Five Years The Best Education Will Come From The Web

    Bill Gates: In Five Years The Best Education Will Come From The Web

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      “If he is right, does it mean that “everybody else” will be left behind, become lumpenized?”

      – Since the education you get from your cell phone in a car is of exactly the same quality than traditional college education, I guess he thinks there is no problem. He said the following: the only difference between a college and this cell phone education is the symbolic, completely imaginary value attached to the college diploma. There is no other difference between them.

      “Does anybody explain why the state is becoming poorer and poorer as the time passes? Could lack of real education of its citizens contribute to that?”

      – Yes and yes. The state is massively in debt. The former governor introduced a slightly higher state tax to help pay off the debt. And it helped. But the new governor ran on the platform of repealing that tax hike. And won. The same students who rant about the rising tuitions celebrated his win. What can I be expected to do here?

      “Bill Gates: In Five Years The Best Education Will Come From The Web”

      – Bill Gates has got to say this because it’s how he makes his money. But why is the IBHE official saying it?

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  2. el Avatar
    el

    // P.P.S. I have only one question: why do you, Americans, hate yourselves so much?

    Do you think other countries will follow suit and destroy their universities too? So, USA will go down, but everybody else either will remain worse anyway or go down too. Thus, American superiority will remain intact.

    Would countries like China, India, Japan, etc let more of their citizens to get quality education? Why, if they are in the same brave new fluid world as USA?

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      “Do you think other countries will follow suit and destroy their universities too? So, USA will go down, but everybody else either will remain worse anyway or go down too. Thus, American superiority will remain intact. Would countries like China, India, Japan, etc let more of their citizens to get quality education? Why, if they are in the same brave new fluid world as USA?”

      – First, let’s see how many Americans even join us in this discussion. Something tells me not many. In this very presentation that I quoted here there was a long section on how we are being overtaken by other countries. Competitors are investing in education like crazy precisely because they know that it’s a new, fluid world. And you can’t survive in that world by learning shit on a cell phone in a car. I don’t know about China and have no faith in Japan but India will eat us all for breakfast. That wouldn’t bother me if only Russia were not a contender for that role as well.

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      1. el Avatar
        el

        \\ That wouldn’t bother me if only Russia were not a contender for that role as well.

        Do you expect Putin’s Russia to develop a real academy from scratch? It may only happen after Russia becomes much more democratic than it’s now. And, if it becomes democratic, why not Russia as the new leader?

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        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          “Do you expect Putin’s Russia to develop a real academy from scratch?”

          – He already is. And has been doing it for years. And India is lending a helping hand.

          Now let’s look at Latin America. Who has been taking all of the promising Latin American scholars and giving them opportunities to create scholarship? The US. As the US steps out of that role, the holy place will never empty, and there we have Putin, flitting all over Latin America making himself look cute. And succeeding.

          “It may only happen after Russia becomes much more democratic than it’s now.”

          – Unfortunately, there is no connection between science and democracy. Once again, remember Stalin.

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      2. aglaonika Avatar
        aglaonika

        “India will eat us all for breakfast.”

        That’s true. India has the best (and cheapest) computer programmers and software engineers in the world. The second one is Malaysia. My favourite online webdev magazine (which is also one of the biggest in the world) is owned and run by Malaysians. Both countries rock in technology. China rocks in business and commerce. The Chinese is the most hardworking nation I’ve ever seen (in my home country there are plenty of Chinese people, as in the 90s it was the only country in Europe where they didn’t need a visa), and the Chinese also spend a lot on their kids’ education. Chinese kids beat the European kids in almost every international competition.

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      3. cliff arroyo Avatar
        cliff arroyo

        “India will eat us all for breakfast”

        I’m not so sure. The education system there is (from everything I understand) not very good (in actually educating large chunks of the population) and this is not a real concern of most of the population.

        It seems like a ‘take care of the best and discard the rest’ kind of system. Sheer population size means they can field a lot of talent but it’s a shallow pool.

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  3. Z Avatar
    Z

    They’re not going to be able to do this. Seriously.

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      I want to believe. 🙂

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  4. N G Avatar
    N G

    WTF? There’s a hidden agenda here. In contrast to your president’s measured (sort of) longer term response to fiscal issues, this is a “shock and awe” strategy to prep you for something coming soon.

    Consider the following recent news items.

    “The state’s higher education czar issued a dire budget warning to the presidents of Illinois’ public universities Friday, telling them to be prepared for cuts in state funding of up to 30 percent over the next 18 months….”

    http://qctimes.com/news/local/rauner-team-tells-higher-ed-director-to-prepare-for-budget/article_86fcc377-a091-5520-aa26-188bc21699a7.html

    and (8 hours ago)

    “Public universities are also being told to create spending reserves of 5 to 10 percent in case the state requires them to pay back funding received for 2014.”

    http://thesouthern.com/news/local/siu/siu-braces-for-possible–percent-funding-cuts/article_e4fc4bf0-1d7c-53d6-a9f4-b75687c70ee1.html

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      “In contrast to your president’s measured (sort of) longer term response to fiscal issues, this is a “shock and awe” strategy to prep you for something coming soon.”

      – Well, it didn’t work because I’m the only one shocked. This is why I’m bringing this to my blog. Nobody else is listening or caring, so maybe here at least I will find some interest in the issue.

      ““The state’s higher education czar issued a dire budget warning to the presidents of Illinois’ public universities Friday, telling them to be prepared for cuts in state funding of up to 30 percent over the next 18 months….”

      – I know. We heard this yesterday at the meeting with the university’s president. After which, people started asking philosophical questions about the nature of existence.

      ““Public universities are also being told to create spending reserves of 5 to 10 percent in case the state requires them to pay back funding received for 2014.””

      – We have already been told to do this right now.

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      1. aglaonika Avatar
        aglaonika

        “Well, it didn’t work because I’m the only one shocked.”
        “After which, people started asking philosophical questions about the nature of existence.”

        Your colleagues’ mentality is the reason why many people say that college doesn’t prepare students for real life. Your colleagues’ mindset is slightly suicidal, but seemingly they have a false sense of security. They can’t really imagine themselves as being unemployed (or unemployable). Firing the meekest sheep among them would have a positive effect on the assertivity of the others, as assertivity is something that is essential in a teaching position. Someone who is not assertive is not suitable for teaching the next generation. However it’s something that will never happen :-). They rather dumb down the whole system, so the meek losers can be content with themselves until the taxpayers let them keep their conflict-free therefore thoughtless system.

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        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          “Your colleagues’ mentality is the reason why many people say that college doesn’t prepare students for real life. Your colleagues’ mindset is slightly suicidal, but seemingly they have a false sense of security.”

          – I know! It’s extraordinarily hard to find any support for my position or just even anybody who would share my concerns. I’m tired of being told that I’m alarmist, that I exaggerate, that there is no need to worry about anything. I’m really not an alarmist at all. But I do believe that we need to be aware of what is going on. Not to get freaked out or depressed or anything like that but to prepare a plan of action.

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      2. Dame Eleanor Hull Avatar
        Dame Eleanor Hull

        30% of nothing is nothing. OK, state funding isn’t quite down to nothing yet, but pretty soon there really won’t be much left to take away. I think we should work on being completely independent of the state.

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  5. Shakti Avatar
    Shakti

    Dude severely underestimates the amount of training needed to get people to sit on their asses for hours at a time to do work and the need for company. Literally, people who do nothing but work on computers by themselves all day decide to pay for co working space. And sometimes a concept doesn’t stick unless you have someone verbally explain or present it to you.
    Such a scheme would drive most people bonkers.

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  6. Clarissa Avatar
    Clarissa

    I’m keeping track on who participates in the discussion: an Israeli, a Hungarian, a Ukrainian-Canadian, a Canadian-Canadian, an Indian, an American of Russian ancestry. Interesting. 🙂

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    1. el Avatar
      el

      // I’m keeping track on who participates in the discussion: an Israeli,

      A Russian-speaking Israeli from a FSU.
      Most of participants have some connection to FSU, some historic experience with it.

      // – Unfortunately, there is no connection between science and democracy. Once again, remember Stalin.

      I am not sure what you mean by “remember Stalin.” You said that most people in FSU were ignorant, with only a few doing real science. Even gave Soviet engineers as an example. As I understood you, today having a few won’t be enough. Practically everybody needs to get educated, do you expect Putin to achieve that?

      Surely, America too would still have a few real scientists even in the worst case scenario?

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      1. Clarissa Avatar
        Clarissa

        “Surely, America too would still have a few real scientists even in the worst case scenario?”

        – Oh yes. As the IBHE director said, a small number of elite schools can do research. Nobody else needs it.

        “A Russian-speaking Israeli from a FSU.
        Most of participants have some connection to FSU, some historic experience with it.”

        – Wow. You are absolutely right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is shocking. Any explanations?

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      2. el Avatar
        el

        \\ – Wow. You are absolutely right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is shocking. Any explanations?

        People, who experienced significant changes in the past, such as immigration or (historic) memory of FSU’s creation and collapse, tend to be “alarmists who exaggerate.” Meaning, they feel (and not only understand intellectually) that significant swift changes are possible, that they won’t always be for the better and that one should prepare for them, f.e. trying to prevent things changing for worse, if possible.

        They are without “a false sense of security” since past experience taught them better.

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        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          “People, who experienced significant changes in the past, such as immigration or (historic) memory of FSU’s creation and collapse, tend to be “alarmists who exaggerate.” ”

          – Not me, though. I’m the most optimistic, positive person with the healthiest mother complex that I know! Everybody else in academia creates enormous drama over the silliest little things. Go over to College Misery that is now getting revived and you will see. But when these serious issues come up, academics remain mum.

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      3. aglaonika Avatar
        aglaonika

        ““A Russian-speaking Israeli from a FSU.
        Most of participants have some connection to FSU, some historic experience with it.”
        – Wow. You are absolutely right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is shocking. Any explanations?”

        We are interested in the topic of the blog. The general Western audience is not that interested in foreign politics and in the history of the former Second World. The same is true for the topic of fluidity. It’s just too disturbing for someone who has always had a comfortable life in a western country.

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  7. musteryou Avatar
    musteryou

    Why does the Yankee hate itself and continue to shoot itself?

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      And an Australian has joined us!!! This means you have Russian-speaking heritage, even if you don’t know about it. Or were somehow impacted by USSR. I have long suspected it.

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      1. el Avatar
        el

        \\ This means you have Russian-speaking heritage, even if you don’t know about it. Or were somehow impacted by USSR

        No, that means that musteryou is both an immigrant and experienced huge, not 100% good changes in her life as the result of big changes in her former state Zimbabwe.

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        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          Mugabe was rejected by the USSR, if I’m not mistaken.

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          1. Clarissa Avatar
            Clarissa

            “Mugabe was rejected by the USSR, if I’m not mistaken.”

            – I think I’m trolling my own thread here.

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      2. musteryou Avatar
        musteryou

        ZAPU were influenced by the USSR and ZANU were influenced by China.

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      3. musteryou Avatar
        musteryou

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwe_African_People%27s_Union

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  8. el Avatar
    el

    \\ Everybody else in academia creates enormous drama over the silliest little things. […] But when these serious issues come up, academics remain mum.

    Precisely. You have seen quite a few serious issues before, in FSU.
    They haven’t.

    It’s not about a father complex, it’s about experiencing something serious in reality. Do you want to say that your experiences in FSU and in immigration(s) haven’t shaped you at all?

    I put the words “alarmists who exaggerate” in quotation marks to show that I am not talking about being an alarmist who exaggerates, but about somebody who *feels*, truly believes in the possibility of big changes, whether good or bad.

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      “Do you want to say that your experiences in FSU and in immigration(s) haven’t shaped you at all?”

      – Any experiences are like rain that falls on the soil prepared by one’s very early childhood experiences. The main structure of one’s personality is in place by the age of 3. Everything else is icing on an already fully baked cake.

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      1. musteryou Avatar
        musteryou

        That’s even more restrictive than Freud who took us up to the age 6. It is true that some people are pretty baked, though.

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      2. Jones Avatar
        Jones

        Strange … my personality type has changed five times in my life.

        It’s more or less stable as INTJ now, of course. 🙂

        Do you have any idea how horrid it is to think back to the time when I was … dare I say it? … an EXTROVERT?

        I could have tainted myself forever by going into sales!

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  9. JaneB Avatar
    JaneB

    “why should a credential from Microsoft University or the British Open University be less prestigious than one from a regional state college?”

    Slightly off track but a point of information: the Open University is a well established state university, not a private company, here in the UK, and it’s only MOSTLY online. Its academics work at a physical campus, along with graduate research students, doing significant and exciting research as well as preparing and running long distance teaching of undergraduates. Students are expected whenever possible to attend in person tutorials in their local areas every few weeks, plus there are summer school weeks which are done in person, as well as distance learning materials which include mailing stuff through the post, email, discussion boards, skype and similar, web resources, books, dvds, audio tracks etc. etc.

    I took a sub-degree-level qualification with the OU fairly recently, to fill in a gap in my own education and formally study material I was expected to teach to my own students (also because I am a nerd who loves to study, so this was a good excuse! and the courses had fun maths in them!) and it gave me huge respect for how hard it must be for students – without a very good background in study skills and a real passion for their subject and for learning, I don’t know how they manage to study a degree by distance learning. It also really brought home to me how much work and cost must go into doing distance learning well.

    Maybe your visitor should be made to do a course with the OU before they make such silly claims. Although they may not have what it takes to study successfuly alone like that.

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      “Slightly off track but a point of information: the Open University is a well established state university, not a private company, here in the UK, and it’s only MOSTLY online. Its academics work at a physical campus, along with graduate research students, doing significant and exciting research as well as preparing and running long distance teaching of undergraduates. Students are expected whenever possible to attend in person tutorials in their local areas every few weeks, plus there are summer school weeks which are done in person, as well as distance learning materials which include mailing stuff through the post, email, discussion boards, skype and similar, web resources, books, dvds, audio tracks etc. etc.”

      – Thank you. These are important clarifications. Our board of higher ed seems kind of ignorant.

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  10. JaneB Avatar
    JaneB

    Aargh I hate wordpress! I wished to comment as JaneB, my usual user name, and it keeps doing this THING where it shows the wrong user name 😦 GRR.

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    1. aglaonika Avatar
      aglaonika

      I know. WP has problems. It deleted my previous comment instead of posting it.

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    2. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      “Aargh I hate wordpress! I wished to comment as JaneB, my usual user name, and it keeps doing this THING where it shows the wrong user name ”

      – But your fairy Godblogger (not to be confused with golddigger) swept in and changed the name to the correct one!

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  11. Ol. Avatar
    Ol.

    No connection to FSU, but let me say that US students love the campus experience. It is a cultural thing, With that in mind I doubt regional/public universities disappear.

    Your question, why Americans hate themselves so much. remain unanswered.

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    1. el Avatar
      el

      \\ let me say that US students love the campus experience. It is a cultural thing, With that in mind I doubt regional/public universities disappear

      Have you meant that public universities are unlikely to disappear since US students especially love the campus experience? How is the latter defined – parties? Even if not, saying “it’s a cultural thing that we love the campus experience – that’s why we need universities” presents this experience as a luxury, something unnecessary for getting an education. Something which only rich students should get similar to a Ferrari.

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      1. Clarissa Avatar
        Clarissa

        “Have you meant that public universities are unlikely to disappear since US students especially love the campus experience?”

        – Not to be a party pooper, but in the same presentation we heard that students don’t need or want the campus experience.

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      2. Ol. Avatar
        Ol.

        I meant that students want to socialize and learn together, and that this is less likely to happen in an online-education environment. I see students gathering in our student lounge. They speak Spanish of French there, they study together, they do not have to be there, yet they occupy the physical space of the university. I cannot belive that Clarissa heard in the presentation that students do not want the campus experience. Really?

        Well, our students occupy their student lounge for now. The administration, however, has decided that our nice building is going to be for maths and biology as of 2016-2017. We will be relocated in an ugly, windowless building, with molds.

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        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          “I meant that students want to socialize and learn together, and that this is less likely to happen in an online-education environment. I see students gathering in our student lounge. They speak Spanish of French there, they study together, they do not have to be there, yet they occupy the physical space of the university. I cannot belive that Clarissa heard in the presentation that students do not want the campus experience. Really?”

          – I agree with you. And with the students. But this IBHE director found some “study” that demonstrates that some people somewhere said for some reason that campus experience isn’t valuable.

          “Well, our students occupy their student lounge for now. The administration, however, has decided that our nice building is going to be for maths and biology as of 2016-2017. We will be relocated in an ugly, windowless building, with molds.”

          – Why am I not surprised?

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      3. n8chz Avatar
        n8chz

        It’s more than parties. I was absolutely not a partier but my college years were by far the best years of my life so far. In my case this is because outside of a few hopelessly expensive east or west coast cities, college towns are the only place in America one can live without a car, and also the only place one can find intelligent conversation except on a hit-or-miss basis.

        The love of sombunall (some but not all) Americans for the campus experience will not necessarily save the campuses, though. It is an extremely valuable experience, but valuable enough to be worth going into extreme debt for? I think not. I think the deputy director knows this and is taking a situation in which people (for better or worse) consider one thing as a better value for the money than another, and advertising it as people seeing the first thing as better (without qualifications) than the other. This is rank dishonesty; representing “people are settling for MOOCs” as “people prefer MOOCs.”

        I was fortunate enough to be college age 20 years ago when the Work Study and Pell Grant programs were still around. Maybe they’re still around, I don’t know. I’m guessing they’re harder to qualify for, and of course the tuition rates have soared astronomically since then. If higher education is to be unsubsidized, then yes, it will be exclusive almost entirely to the upper class. The ideology of “tea party,” “libertarianism,” etc. considers “subsidy” a dirty word, and it is winning big time.

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      4. JaneB Avatar
        JaneB

        My Open University experience was interesting there too – the students (who were mostly mature students, with jobs, children, elder-care, all the complexities of life) went to great efforts to create some kind of study community, to get together physically whenever they could – many of them seemed to really want the experience of being in the same place as other people who were studying. Seems like a very human need to me – one of the biggest reasons I still search the job lists regularly is a shortage of ‘my people’ in my current job/city, and a good degree programme is one which changes you – a student will naturally want to be with people who will understand some of the experiences without having to have everything explained in detail. Funny how people just don’t realise they’re meant to behave like perfect consumers rather than social animals, isn’t it??

        I work at a campus-in-a-city university, and the campus aspect of it is very attractive to students – and to their parents, who seem to feel like it’s a safer set-up for their children to start the leaving home process than being in the middle of a large city (not sure that’s right, but now the fee regime in the UK (and the somewhat pernicious influence of the US, and ongoing changes in most western societies) has really brought parents into the picture when it comes to choosing where people study. Mature students/students with complex life commitments/those who commute from some distance to campus seem to also really like the campus setting – my impression is that they find having spaces where they can study alone, socialise, do computer work, work with groups between their scheduled classes, all within a short walk, is very convenient for them since they tend to plan their time very carefully, and if they need to travel for a class meeting the compactness of campus makes it easier for them to make good use of an hour or two between two classes.

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  12. Clarissa Avatar
    Clarissa

    A Quebecois and a Brit have joined us. Seriously, where are Americans? More to the point, where are American academics?

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    1. n8chz Avatar
      n8chz

      I’m an American. I’m not an academic, though. If it helps, I’m an anti-anti-intellectual, and despite my armchair anarchist tendencies, I do vote.

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      1. Clarissa Avatar
        Clarissa

        “I’m an American. I’m not an academic, though. If it helps, I’m an anti-anti-intellectual, and despite my armchair anarchist tendencies, I do vote.”

        – Yay! We’ve got our token American! 🙂 (I’m kidding, I’m kidding.)

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    2. TomW Avatar
      TomW

      I guess I have to be the token American academic on this one, though I honestly don’t know what to say.

      Our state universities are facing similar if slightly less radical pressures. The legislature is reviewing the funding formulas. We’ve had an efficiency review and hundreds of staff positions are going to be eliminated, though they are aiming to do this by encouraging early retirements. There’s been no talk of firing faculty, but know that the college of arts and sciences has made very few tenure track hires in the past year, but we’ve added lots of full-time lecturers and lots of part time adjuncts. We’ve been told that there will be more online classes, but they are also building new dorms and planning to recruit more students, so at least they don’t think the campus experience is dead.

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    3. E (The Third Glance) Avatar
      E (The Third Glance)

      I’m an American academic who has been thinking about things like this for ages, and has been reading every comment on this post (in between trying to work today, and among other terrifying posts you’ve made in the past couple of days) – partially, I’ve not weighed in much because I don’t feel that I have anything to add as of yet. I’d rather sit back and read what other people who have experienced things like this have to say. My only feeling when I read this post was “really? Has this person ever talked to a student? ever? Because obviously, he never had an education.” Well that and “oh **** I do not want cars being driven by people who are simultaneously taking “classes” – that sounds like a very very very bad idea.”

      But as someone whose future job (and passion) depends on higher education and research continuing to exist, it’s just very frustrating.

      It sounds like this particular person has already given up on the possibility of education, and is now trying to make himself believe that he is on the right side of history. I hope he isn’t, but fear he is…

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  13. el Avatar
    el

    \\ – Any experiences are like rain that falls on the soil prepared by one’s very early childhood experiences. The main structure of one’s personality is in place by the age of 3. Everything else is icing on an already fully baked cake.

    So, after the age of 3, all people *completely* stop learning and changing, unless they pay to an analyst? *Any* experiences, including very traumatic ones?

    It may be true about the main structure of one’s personality and, of course, different people don’t experience things in the same fashion. However, I don’t think it’s the entire story. Look at:

    “Seriously, where are Americans? More to the point, where are American academics?”

    What has happened with all of them before the age of 3? 🙂

    Now seriously: I don’t think that having main structure of one’s personality remain intact precludes learning from experiences and expanding one’s horizons. Especially, when early experience till the age of 3 wasn’t bad. Saying “person A believes in the possibility of changes because of [till age of 3]” and “person B – doesn’t”, while completely ignoring the different environments on the level of the country and its history, doesn’t seem right.

    You talked about historic memory. Is it also transmitted before the age of 3?

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      “You talked about historic memory. Is it also transmitted before the age of 3?”

      – Of course.

      “I don’t think that having main structure of one’s personality remain intact precludes learning from experiences and expanding one’s horizons.”

      – Neither do I. Obviously. 🙂 🙂

      “What has happened with all of them before the age of 3?”

      – Unless they are 13, how would I know? 🙂 🙂 Let’s remain hopeful, though, and expect them to show up after they’ve had dinner. 🙂

      “So, after the age of 3, all people *completely* stop learning and changing”

      – Who is the evildoer who said that??? 🙂

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      1. el Avatar
        el

        \\ – Who is the evildoer who said that???

        If you haven’t said that, then people may have learned something from experiencing FSU falling apart and / or immigration. Something which Americans-from-America haven’t observed closely and haven’t learned from.

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        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          “If you haven’t said that, then people may have learned something from experiencing FSU falling apart and / or immigration. Something which Americans-from-America haven’t observed closely and haven’t learned from.”

          – Now that you formulate it as learning, we can all be happy with the statement. 🙂

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  14. n8chz Avatar
    n8chz

    I know you probably can’t answer, but might you be at liberty to reveal the name of the Grand Poobah of the Directorate of Illinois Education?

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      Sure I can. Dr. Al Phillips, Executive Deputy Director with Illinois Board of Higher Education.

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  15. Stringer Bell Avatar
    Stringer Bell

    This is madness. I think I’ve posted this piece before. Even so, this bears repeating.

    http://fredrikdeboer.com/2014/02/05/education-where-our-medias-restricted-range-really-hurts/

    “This makes perfect sense if you’ve actually taught real human beings before. I’ve made this point many times: education has never been about access to knowledge. For decades, anyone with a public library card has had access to knowledge. But if you leave a bunch of freshman alone in a room with a biology textbook and an internet-enabled computer for a semester, I promise, the vast majority of them will come out with no earthly idea of what the ADP/ATP cycle is. I keep pointing out: the record for educational technologies making an actual impact on educational outcomes is dismal. And that’s before we talk about the fact that these technologies are specifically endorsed as a method to spread education to marginal students from demographic categories with poor educational outcomes. As Alan Jacobs– the opposite of a technophobe– pointed out, the research we have suggests that it’s exactly the students who least need the affordability offered by online education who do best in online classes. Getting anything out of online classes takes great self-discipline and motivation; these are qualities that students who struggle typically lack.”

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  16. djiril Avatar
    djiril

    Well, as an American I find this depressing. Courses that are completely online play into all of my weaknesses as a student. Being in a physical building with the other people who are taking the class helps me focus. It can be very hard for me to do homework at home, and these courses are basically all “homework.”
    Not to mention, in the really big courses communication with the professor isn’t even an option, and if there is a class message board it can be hard to communicate because there are so many people.

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      The main goal of this education is to teach you to make a list of facts you found online to show to an employer. That list can’t be too long. I agree with IBHE that anybody can learn to make such a list online quite fast.

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  17. Evelina Anville Avatar
    Evelina Anville

    I’m so depressed when I read this that I almost can’t comment with any cogency. I am no patriot and know that Americans have a lot to learn from other countries and cultures………….. American higher ed, in my opinion, is (or was) truly something special. And for some reason, instead of celebrating our tremendous domestic accomplishment, we seem intent on destroying our university system. I think it’s because universities are too joyful of spaces and Americans translate joy to laziness? As long as administrators aren’t trying to ruin things American college campuses are joyful spaces: students discovering the world of academia, students living on their own for the first time; faculty discussing their passions, librarians committed to preserving and sharing the world’s knowledge etc. etc.

    I think there is hope though. And it lies in the students. Our university tried pushing online schooling a few years ago and the students just wouldn’t sign up for the classes. Administrators tried moving study spaces out of the library and students persisted in using the library. And now administrators have declared that “online schooling isn’t right for our campus” and “we need to ensure our ‘brick and mortar’ library remains competitive.” Students know the value of higher ed and they will continue to demand quality and engaging experiences. I hope so anyway.

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  18. Shakti Avatar
    Shakti

    Should I declare myself the first graduate of the University of Wikipedia-Clickhole? I’m so full of True Facts ™, that people marvel at my truthiness for miles around. Really, I’ve taken courses at private universities, public universities, and community colleges and the quasi online ones don’t really compare. Let me tell you, not a person uses the online discussion boards for anything. They all meet to do their homework and study together, if they have any social inclination. I don’t understand why the same people who proclaim that Millennials and younger need constant hand-holding and praise will opt for an experience where they can’t see someone praising them in person. It absolutely goes against the grain of how most people learn and how they’ve been taught to learn in the US.

    The online credential will never be as prestigious as the “real university” precisely because the “rich people” go to “real universities.”

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      “The online credential will never be as prestigious as the “real university” precisely because the “rich people” go to “real universities.””

      – Exactly. If online education were really as good as we are being told, rich people would be first in line to get it. And they are not. What does that tell us?

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  19. Pen Avatar
    Pen

    Has anyone actually asked the students what they want? Because the ones I know (including myself) don’t like online classes nearly so much as in-person classes. And forget about lectures–how in the world can you do a chem, bio, or physics lab at home? Let alone research? This whole “research takes away professors” argument is total BS, especially in smaller colleges (there are exceptions, of course, but most are private). If anything, research gives the students more opportunities to see what the field is like and actually *gasp* get to know their professors. It’s almost like the people who are giving this speech have no actual experience within the higher-ed system outside their own deluded thoughts.

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      Of course, students don’t want online learning and want actual classrooms and campus. However, and this is the real problem, in order to know that they like classrooms and campus, students need to experience them. We are being told that we will get to “teach out” those who are already here and like the classrooms and the campus. But the new generation will not get a chance to find out that they like campus. Because they won’t see it.

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  20. cliff arroyo Avatar
    cliff arroyo

    Time zones and other commitments have prevented me from commenting yet.

    It sounds awful, you have my deepest sympathies (that and about $5.00 will get you a pumpkin latte and some change back).

    Anyway, this is largely what I’ve been predicting. The closure of state funded brick and mortar insitutions to most while making attending a place with a physical campus a prerequisite for actually utilizing one’s skills and abilities in the job market.

    In other words, attending a “Real” university will be social signalling that one’s parents have resources (and presumably connections). Do you read Marginal Revolution? The blogger(s) there are pretty transparent in their enthusiasm for MOOC’s as booby prizes for those without the right parents (and their glee at the hollowing out of the middle class).

    It doesn’t make economic sense (limiting hiring to the offspring of the established is deeply irrational) but systems can limp on for a long time despite high levels of economic irrationality (see CCCP).

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      “In other words, attending a “Real” university will be social signalling that one’s parents have resources (and presumably connections).”

      – The IBHE person said this very openly yesterday. So this isn’t even implied. This is an actual plan that they are very outspoken about.

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  21. el Avatar
    el

    How much is a year of online education supposed to cost, according to IBHE, as opposed to a year of usual education?

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    1. n8chz Avatar
      n8chz

      Interesting you should ask. To the extent that I’ve looked into this MOOC’s charge by the month. The courses are self-paced. The incentive, of course, is to go though the curriculum as rapidly as possible. I kid you not.

      There’s also a free option that the MOOCorporations refer to as “courseware” (which makes me cringe, as courseware, specifically open courseware, is something MIT invented something like 20 years ago). The paid option is a prerequisite for getting a “credential.” Among other things (or not?), you can put it on your LinkedIn profile.

      Interestingly, at lot of the free market ideologues who talk about education in terms of “signaling theory” also talk up the MOOC concept and also talk about the death of “credentialism.” I completed a free course on Java programming on Udacity before they implemented the freemium model. As for free courseware available online, the courseware offered by real universities is just as free and just as online and of much higher quality. I’m pretty sure I’ve taken my first and last MOOC course.

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      1. n8chz Avatar
        n8chz

        Here’s an example.

        It says $199 a month after 14 day trial. It also says the course nominally takes about three weeks. 14 days is two weeks, so I suppose if you can progress 50% faster than par you can take the course for free. Notice the strikethrough lines under “what you get.” I don’t know which if any of those three items are available during a 14 day trial. Apparently I would have to register for the enrolled (rather than courseware) version to find out, but that is already “at capacity.” It all strikes me as something of a shell game.

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      2. Clarissa Avatar
        Clarissa

        “The incentive, of course, is to go though the curriculum as rapidly as possible. I kid you not.”

        – Of course. It was also mentioned in this IBHE speech that Bachelor’s degrees should take 2 years.

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    2. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      Two thousand less. But only because you get taught less material, less courses. All you get taught is “a list of facts” to present to your employer. Anything that can’t be physically shown to your employer isn’t taught.

      There is no mandate from any actual employer that stands behind this, obviously. This is all based on the fantasy of the people from IBHE.

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      1. el Avatar
        el

        \\ Two thousand less

        Not $2000 for a year, but $2000 less?!!!

        How much does a year at a normal university cost? I checked one of Illinois universities and saw tuition of $15, 000 – $20,000. Do you mean that online new thing will cost ~ $13,000 – $18,000?

        What a rip-off.

        Of course, a student of the online university won’t pay for the room and board and will supposedly work full time while studying, which may be harder to do at a usual university, but still.

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        1. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          “Not $2000 for a year, but $2000 less?!!!

          How much does a year at a normal university cost? I checked one of Illinois universities and saw tuition of $15, 000 – $20,000. Do you mean that online new thing will cost ~ $13,000 – $18,000?”

          – The math is as follows. The tuition at out university (if you don’t qualify for any financial aid, which is rare) is $8,000 per year. This online “degree” will be $6,000 per year.

          “Of course, a student of the online university won’t pay for the room and board and will supposedly work full time while studying, which may be harder to do at a usual university, but still.”

          – Thing is, they will have to live and eat somewhere. And that somewhere is more expensive, less tranquil, less beautiful and less close to intellectual and cultural centers than our dorms. Our dorms are heart-breakingly beautiful and are so much better than the living quarters these students have in Ferguson, East St. Louis, etc. I’m sure you’ve seen Ferguson on TV and online. And you’ve seen the photos of our dorms on my blog. I believe it will be a shame to deprive students of a chance to live in these spectacular conditions.

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  22. N G Avatar
    N G

    Follow the money!

    “As you’ve undoubtedly heard by now, Rauner made hundreds of millions of dollars as a leader of the private equity firm GTCR from 1981 to 2012. Though he left the business shortly before launching his bid for governor, he continues to have investments in it.

    In 1999 GTCR funded the creation of ForeFront Education, a for-profit company offering college degrees and training for jobs including medical assistants, paralegals, and office administrators. As with all of its investments, GTCR was interested in this segment of higher education because of its growth potential—or, as the Chronicle of Higher Education later reported, “because of its high profit margin.”

    http://www.chicagoreader.com/Bleader/archives/2014/10/20/how-bruce-rauner-makes-money-from-for-profit-schools-and-worthless-degrees

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    1. Evelina Anville Avatar
      Evelina Anville

      Well that explains nearly everything. Depressing and shameful.

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  23. Fred_the_Dog Avatar
    Fred_the_Dog

    I work at a teaching hospital, so the education I am currently involved in is somewhat different from the rest of the university system. Some of our students are doing some/all of their advanced education online (NPs, BSNs, and PAs mostly, not the MDs/DOs), with clinical practice arranged within the hospital. This sort of works because these students already have undergraduate degrees; they have learned how to learn, something many people don’t get in high school (maybe due to lack of maturity, or lack of parental involvement from an early age, I don’t think it can be blamed entirely on the schools themselves). Plus they get hands-on practice for the things they are learning by doing clinical rotations.

    If all we were to have post-high-school were online classes, some people would be able to manage it, but (having had online classes myself, and I have a couple of degrees and lots of graduate hours) I think they would retain far less. I know that I am much more easily distracted, sitting in my home, watching an online class. As I am a committed, life-long learner, who sometimes takes classes just for the fun of learning something new (whether it is useful or not), online classes make it just that much harder to succeed.

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    1. Fred_the_Dog Avatar
      Fred_the_Dog

      *The BSN students are RN to BSN, so those have a 2-year degree, and are still undergrads. But the 2-year degree is more challenging than most.

      **BSN = Bachelor of Science in Nursing; NP = Nurse Practitioner (a nurse with an advanced degree who can prescribe medication); PA = Physician’s Asssitant; MD = Doctor of Medicine; DO = Doctor of Osteopathy)

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  24. N G Avatar
    N G

    Follow the money (2).

    From the beginning of your post:

    “In the nearest future, only rich people will get to go to real universities. Everybody else will get educated online. This is why mid-tier universities, such as ours, need to go online, period.”

    On November 18, 2012 around the time that Bruce Rauner announces his candidacy for governor, GTCR (his company) creates Rural Broadband Investments based in Kansas which “acquires and invests in rural-focused cable systems serving residential and commercial customers in small- to middle-sized markets and rural geographies. On May 2, 2014 R.B.I. purchases local cable infrastructure from Cass Cable TV inc. in Illinois and issues the following announcement.

    “The Cass systems are an excellent add-on to our Southwest Illinois footprint,” said Phil Spencer, CEO of Rural Broadband Investments. “We intend to fiber tie these systems and offer additional HD channels, advanced commercial services and a more robust internet service. This will give us an exceptional opportunity to better serve customers and increase penetration of high-speed internet services as well as advanced commercial services. We look forward to adding the local Cass employees to our team.”

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/rural-broadband-investments-acquires-illinois-cable-assets-2014-05-02

    So after your university becomes on-line the high speed internet services required by the students will be owned by GTCR of which the governor is a major stockholder. The least that he could do is divest his holdings. I welcome any critique of this comment.

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    1. n8chz Avatar
      n8chz

      This reminds me very much of the B**sh** administration and “No Child Left Behind,” which made teaching to the test the business model of K-12 education. His brother Jeb was (is?) quite heavily invested in educational testing companies.

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    2. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      I definitely think this IBHE fellow who made the speech yesterday is in the pocket of either Coursera or something similar.

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  25. el Avatar
    el

    // It was also mentioned in this IBHE speech that Bachelor’s degrees should take 2 years.

    I would never have been able to do this while working.
    And probably not even w/o working.

    If somebody can earn only minimum wage, taking more courses and not working may cost less than working and taking less courses. I already imagine young people in their parents’ basement sitting all days near computers to pass X online tests as fast as possible. And then to forget it asap.

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      “I would never have been able to do this while working.
      And probably not even w/o working.”

      – Remember that “this” means making a fact sheet of stuff copy-pasted from Google. I think you would have done it easily. The question is: what for?

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  26. Fie Upon This Quiet Life Avatar
    Fie Upon This Quiet Life

    I can’t think of anything more scary than a bunch of 18 year-olds skipping college and trying to get into the professional workforce without having college as the buffer between high school and a career. Thing is, that used to be the case in America — neither of my parents went to college. But now, there is such a long extended adolescence that young people really need the college experience — and living away from home — to even CLOSE to prepare for a professional life. They are so immature that they really need to have a safe space to experience semi-independent living and facing consequences of their actions. For instance, I have students flake out all the time with assignments or they will plagiarize or do something stupid. My response is always, “You are an adult, so these are the consequences, and there’s no getting out of them.” It’s far better for them to experience that sort of thing on a college campus than in the “real” world when they are 18-22 years old.

    Also, your point about Americans hating themselves — yes, I think that’s right. Americans have no idea how much their actions in higher ed come across as utter self-hatred. Let’s destroy the universities and all culture and beauty, so we can all wear nooses (I mean, neck ties) around our necks on a daily basis and go to some white-collar job where we do nothing meaningful, but move money from one account to another, making all the rich people richer, while we search for meaning by desperately scrambling from bed to bed or city to city, wondering where it all went wrong. Jesus. Americans need to get their heads out of their asses.

    Sort of unrelated, but this discussion reminds me of David Foster Wallace’s Kenyon College Commencement Speech from a few years ago. Are you familiar with it? (Link: http://moreintelligentlife.com/story/david-foster-wallace-in-his-own-words)

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      Right at this very moment, I was reading your post on the delusion of reprieve. It’s a very powerful post and it speaks directly to how people think about the future of higher education.

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  27. David P. Bellamy Avatar
    David P. Bellamy

    Being busy with final exams, I am not going to take time to read all these comments. I hope that students do value the college experience. It seems to me that they do. If these predictions come to pass, it will greatly widen the divide between rich and poor. This gap is already too great.

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      “I hope that students do value the college experience. It seems to me that they do.”

      – Yes, they do. But who cares?

      OK, I promised not to be too negative. Everybody cares, everybody cares.

      Good luck with finals!

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  28. Jones Avatar
    Jones

    “… in the same presentation we heard that students don’t need or want the campus experience.”

    This meshes with the perception that there will be Hobbesian academics in the United States on the basis that the punters want their experiences to be convenient and comfortable. (I recall you’ve said or echoed something like this recently, although it momentarily escapes me.)

    “No argument, no discourse, no mentorship; and the lives of students shall be solitary, networked, bifurcated, and somnambulent …”

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  29. Avatar
    Anonymous

    His presentation is mostly plagiarized material.

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  30. James Avatar
    James

    His presentation is mostly plagiarized material.

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