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Different Kinds of Solidarity

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Clarissa

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Ukraine shows solidarity with France:

image
Ukraine's National Academy of Music

On the negative side, Russia has already started pushing hard for the creation of an anti-ISIS coalition. The price of the coalition will, of course, be the removal of Western sanctions against Russia.

France has always been the weakest member of the international community that imposed sanctions on Russia, and now Putin has a great opening to push France towards giving up the sanctions.

Putin has been very lucky with the airplane crash and yesterday’s terror attacks in Paris happening in such close succession.

28 responses to “Different Kinds of Solidarity”

  1. Dreidel Avatar
    Dreidel

    An effective anti-ISIS coalition (one that would utterly destroy it) would have to be composed of substantial U.S. military ground forces going into direct combat alongside allied forces from NATO countries like France. Putin should not be included in any leadership role. Our forces should fight around Russian forces (which are mainly propping up Assad, anyway), not with them.

    Obama, and American public opinion, hasn’t reach that point — but if ISIS carries out further attacks in Europe, or any successful ones in America, the U.S. may be forced to finally take the leadership role and act.

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      Of course, Putin’s soldiers will not be able to destroy even a caliphate of bingo – playing grandmas, let alone armed terrorists. But I fear that the temptation to leave the situation to Putin will prove too strong.

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  2. cliff arroyo Avatar
    cliff arroyo

    IINM Putin’s actions in Syria aren’t against ISIS at all, they’re against non-ISIS enemies of the Assad regime.

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      Oh, of course. But if it’s easy to pretend that he will fight ISIS there, might the French and Obama not take that bait? The argument might be, well, if ISIS blew up a Russian plane, then Russians must be doing something that ISIS don’t like.

      Yes, I’m getting paranoid.

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  3. niedermen Avatar
    niedermen

    The reactions people are having to this tragedy seem to have little to no relation to the massacre itself. The Hebrew-language twittersphere has had a lot of people facetiously calling for ‘both sides to behave with restraint’ and many have related the murders to the EU’s decision this week to begin labeling products from the settlement in the WB and East Jerusalem.

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      Huh?? Both sides? Product labeling? People are too weird.

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      1. niedermen Avatar
        niedermen

        The premise being that when Palestinians commit terror attacks against Israelis, the French (and everyone else) call for restraint for both Israelis and Palestinians and for a peace process rather than just calling for all-out war on Palestine. And many Israelis believe that the product labeling thing is anti-Semitic, so maybe it’s just a bit of Schadenfreude.

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        1. Dreidel Avatar
          Dreidel

          Oh, I get it — the tweeters are being sarcastic. And they’re correct about E.U.’s anti-Semitism.

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          1. Clarissa Avatar
            Clarissa

            Ah, sarcasm! I always miss it.

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        2. Clarissa Avatar
          Clarissa

          Thank you for explaining. I’m a little dense tonight.

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          1. niedermen Avatar
            niedermen

            I don’t know if sarcasm is the correct term in this case. There’s a large strange of anti-Europeanism in Israel at the moment and there are many who don’t express horror at the terror attacks in Paris. Also I would disagree with the characterization of Europeans as anti-Semites, and especially with that of the European Union as an anti-Semitic institution.

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            1. Dreidel Avatar
              Dreidel

              I’m talking about E.U. policies as anti-Semitic re: the E.U.’s one-sided actions against Israel while ignoring Palestinian terrorism.

              Individual Europeans are like individual Americans or Asians or whatever — some are anti-Semitic, some aren’t.

              When Hebrew-language tweeters (I’m assuming they’re mostly Israeli, posting in that language) react to terrorism against a European city by mocking the European response to terrorism against Israel — “Tut, tut! Calm down, this calls for dialogue, not more violence” — that sounds a lot like sarcasm to me.

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            2. Clarissa Avatar
              Clarissa

              I don’t think that the EU is anti-Semitic and I believe it’s insane to think that. So I’m with you here.

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              1. Stringer Bell Avatar
                Stringer Bell

                I read it differently. Dreidel is calling the EU anti-semetic.

                “And they’re correct about E.U.’s anti-Semitism.”

                Yes, it is insane to think that. But then, we’re talking about Dreidel here. That’s probably one of his more moderate opinions. 🙂

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              2. Dreidel Avatar
                Dreidel

                I would have gotten a “top secret” clearance from the U.S. military twice in my career if I were anywhere near “insane.” But Clarissa and Stringer Boy weren’t calling me personally “insane,” right? Just my opinions?

                Kind of like I feel about the E.U.’s policy of singling out of Israel as a pharoh state just because (in certain E.U. politicians’ minds) Israel is a white colonist nation imposing its conqueror’s will on the “oppressed” people who show their peaceful intent by stabbing 80-year-old great-grandmothers in the back.

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              3. Clarissa Avatar
                Clarissa

                I was responding to the niedermen’s comment on the tweeters. I can’t see where my comment went on this app.

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              4. Dreidel Avatar
                Dreidel

                “I would have gotten a ‘top secret’ clearance from the U.S. military twice in my career if I were anywhere near ‘insane.’”

                Obviously, I meant “wouldn’t” in that sentence — was this failure to proofread a clear example of insanity? 🙂

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              5. el Avatar
                el

                // I don’t think that the EU is anti-Semitic and I believe it’s insane to think that.

                In Israel, most people seem to think differently. And not only Jews in Israel:

                “Conference of European Rabbis strongly condemns EU Commission’s decision to label products from Jewish settlements, accusing the continent’s leaders of adopting double standards towards Israel and its neighbors. […] CER President Rabbi Pinchas Goldschmidt found a similarity between the decision made Monday and the attempts of opponents of Jewish slaughter to label kosher meat products about two years ago. “We dealt with the desires of Europe’s new anti-Semites,” he said, “and we succeeded in curbing this initiative in the European Parliament and in the EU institutions.”
                http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4724576,00.html

                As for France, it has been pursuing anti-Israeli policy for a while already. Israeli commentors say “no matter what we do with solidarity & ect., French government will be against us.” Their latest initiatives (which commentors know about and are very angry at):

                [18.10.15] Israel seeks to thwart French initiative on Temple Mount
                Israel and the US have been working in the diplomatic arena to thwart a French initiative to pass a presidential statement of the UN Security Council condemning Israel for allegedly using excessive force and constructing in the settlements.

                The French proposal raises the possibility of sending an international observer force to the Temple Mount similar to the Temporary International Presence in Hebron (TIPH) observers currently stationed in Hebron. The proposal requires the full consensus of all 15 Security Council members. It is set to be deliberated at the Security Council meeting on the Middle East on Thursday.

                The Israeli government was angered by the French proposal, seeing it as a continuation of a previous proposal to set a timetable for the establishment of a Palestinian state and an attempt by France to expand the Quartet by adding new countries. The Prime Minister’s Office said that “the French proposal regarding international supervision on the Temple Mount is entirely baseless. It is only declarative. Israel is working with the US and others against this initiative.”
                http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4712737,00.html

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              6. Clarissa Avatar
                Clarissa

                ““Conference of European Rabbis strongly condemns EU Commission’s decision to label products from Jewish settlements, accusing the continent’s leaders of adopting double standards towards Israel and its neighbors.”

                • It is my very strong belief that rabbis, priests and mullahs should stay inside their religious communities and not get involved in political affairs. Everybody who does not believe in a strict separation between “church” and state is a barbarian to me.

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    2. Dreidel Avatar
      Dreidel

      “many have related the murders to the EU’s decision this week to begin labeling products from the settlement in the WB and East Jerusalem.”

      Huh??? Do the people tweeting give ANY explanation for believing this?

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  4. Stringer Bell Avatar
    Stringer Bell

    Just a reminder to people tuning in just now: If you’re not a full-throated supporter of keeping people in an open air cage, denying them their basic human rights, bulldozing their homes, and murdering children, you’re an anti-semite according to Dreidel.

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  5. Stringer Bell Avatar
    Stringer Bell

    “Kind of like I feel about the E.U.’s policy of singling out of Israel as a pharoh state”

    I don’t think anyone would call Israel a pharoh state. Pariah state on the other hand…

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    1. Dreidel Avatar
      Dreidel

      Actually, the secondary Standard English Dictionary definition of a “pharoh” state is a “tyrannical” one, so the definition holds. “Pariah”(outcast) state is the more common term.

      Ah, Stringer, you call yourself a full-throated supporter of human rights, when even you can’t honestly deny that the open-air cage around the Palestinian terrorists has been built brick-by-brick, bar-by-bar, by the blind Palestinian followers of their rapid-dog leaders who have always been more interested in sacrificing their own children than building a peaceful word where all children can be allowed to run free, and to learn and grow.

      If the Palestinian teachers are truly dedicated to the future, while don’t they educate their children to follow the trail of logic, rather than the smell of blood?

      And no, this isn’t one of my “more moderate” views on terrorists.

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  6. el Avatar
    el

    Another example of Israeli reaction:

    Shop drops European wine in protest of labeling West Bank goods

    Owner of a Bnei Brak wine shop replaces European goods with wines from the West Bank; Moshavim Movement warns that labeling could extend to all of Israel.
    […]
    “I removed wines from Spain, Italy and France. It hurts me financially but I’m willing to take it,” he added.
    […]
    The Moshavim Movement warned on Friday that the European labeling of agricultural products from the settlements could develop into a ban on all Israeli agricultural products, which would immediately hurt all farmers who export abroad in various sectors such as fruits, vegetables, flowers and orchards. “The Europeans do not distinguish between products from the settlements and products from the rest of the country,” they claim.

    Meir Tzur, secretary general of the Moshavim Movement, sent a missive to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Agriculture Minister Uri Ariel and Deputy Foreign Minister Tzipi Hotovely demanding that they take action and oppose the new policy. “A situation may arise in which all Israeli farm products are boycotted and this would seriously harm agricultural exports to Europe,” he said. “Israeli agriculture today is in crisis and the livelihood of many farmers depends on exports abroad. Such a boycott of agricultural products could lead to the closure of farms
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4725072,00.html

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      This is capitalism. Everybody is entitled to buy or not to buy whatever they feel like.

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  7. el Avatar
    el

    Last article about Jews in France. If French are extremely pro-Palestinian (this is the picture people in Israel get), one may understand where the anger in comments comes from:

    [29.6.15] Yaakov Ben-Said 25, a Jew who lives in Paris and works in hotel management, claims that the areas where you can still walk around with a kippah are becoming more and more scarce.

    “I disagree with the term ‘bubble’ – it is in fact a ‘mini-bubble.’ 500 meters from where we are standing right now I would not walk around with a kippah. Even at 2 am I wouldn’t not wear a kippah, and I will not tell anyone I’m a Jew.”

    Nathan Sabah, 23, a high-tech entrepreneur, says that hiding one’s Judaism does not just mean not wearing Jewish symbols, but also fearing to show solidarity with Israel.

    “When there is war, as there was last summer, you cannot say you are against the Palestinians or pro-Israel in the streets,” he says. “You do not want to explain to someone why Israel has to do what it does and why people die in war. If you start explaining something and they think you are pro-Israel – you are finished! You can not say such things in the Metro or in place with a lot of people. If you are at a café talking about the situation in Israel with the Palestinians, you cannot raise your voice.”
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4673776,00.html

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    1. Clarissa Avatar
      Clarissa

      ““When there is war, as there was last summer, you cannot say you are against the Palestinians or pro-Israel in the streets,” he says. “You do not want to explain to someone why Israel has to do what it does and why people die in war. If you start explaining something and they think you are pro-Israel – you are finished! You can not say such things in the Metro or in place with a lot of people. If you are at a café talking about the situation in Israel with the Palestinians, you cannot raise your voice.””

      • “Finished” in what sense? What is going to happen if he raises his voice? This is strange incapacity to explain what he means.

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  8. el Avatar
    el

    Israel did show solidarity in one of the best ways:

    Meanwhile, Israel said on Sunday its spy services were helping France investigate the attacks, and Israeli media suggested that intelligence being provided drew on surveillance of militant groups in Syria and Iraq.
    …
    According to Channel Two, Israel had no advance warning of the Paris attacks but within hours of the assaults gave France details on some of the Islamic State militants believed to have carried them out.

    Citing an unnamed senior Israeli official, Channel Two said Israel saw a “clear operational link” between the Paris attacks, Thursday’s Beirut suicide bombings and the Oct. 31 downing of a Russian airliner in the Egyptian Sinai.
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4725631,00.html

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