Prop 58

In November, California will vote on Proposition 58. The proposition will allow children of Hispanic immigrants to receive bilingual education in state’s secondary schools.

I’m not sure I even need to say that I’m opposed. This idea of a bilingual education in California was already voted on a decade ago and it was rejected then. I hope it’s rejected again. Children of immigrants should not be corralled into a ghetto. They should be helped to assimilate.

True bilingualism is extraordinarily rare. And as everything, it comes at a price. Immigrant children should not be subjected to these ridiculous experiments that are likely to leave them stuck in a broken Spanglish mode which will close all educational and employment opportunities for them.

I’m appalled this is even being considered.

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77 responses to “Prop 58”

cliff arroyo

August 9, 2016

My problem is that there is no one thing called “bilingual education” there are several different types that serve different purposes and it’s impossible to discuss those issues in a rational manner in the US.

In general I’m all for temporary transitional help for immigrant kids to help them transfer to the language of the new country (rather than a survival of the fittest sink or swim model). But I’m against publicly funded maintenance bilingual programs for immigrants.

I am generally in favor of language maintenance programs for indigenous minorities.

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Clarissa

August 9, 2016

Knowing how California’s education system works, all there will be in this bilingual education is a promotion of Spanglish.

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1. Z
  
  August 9, 2016
  
  No — it’s Mandarin, Cantonese, Hmong, also a lot of Korean and Laotian, and more … and Spanish immersion for English speaking kids. http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/education/article2592439.html as well as Spanish support for immigrants
  
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The Dark Avenger

August 9, 2016

“True bilingualism is very rare”

I dunno, my granduncle learned Japanese well enough to pass for a native when he worked for the CIA after WWII, my wife speaks three languages in addition to her native Illocano, and one of my ancestors learned to speak Cantonese in his early 20s and conducted undercover operations in that language as the first Chinese Inspector on the Hong Kong police force.

So, I dunno.

This two-monolinguals-in-one-person view has been assumed and amplified by many bilinguals themselves who either criticize their own language competence, or strive to reach monolingual norms, or even hide their knowledge of their weaker language(s).

If one were to count as bilingual only those people who pass as complete monolinguals in each of their languages (they are a rarity), one would be left with no label for the vast majority of people who use two or more languages regularly but who do not have native-like fluency in each. The reason they don’t is quite simply that bilinguals do not need to be equally competent in all of their languages. They usually acquire and use their languages for different purposes, in different domains of life, with different people.

One of the fathers of bilingualism research, Uriel Weinreich, a linguist in the second part of the 20th century, recognized this and proposed, along with Canadian linguist William Mackey, a more realistic definition of bilingualism – the alternate use of two or more languages. My own definition is very similar: bilinguals are those who use two or more languages (or dialects) in their everyday lives.

This other way of looking at bilinguals allows one to include people ranging from the professional interpreter who is fluent in two languages all the way to the established immigrant who speaks the host country’s language but who may not be able to read or write it. In between we find the bilingual child who interacts with her parents in one language and with her friends in another, the scientist who reads and writes articles in a second language (but who rarely speaks it), the member of a linguistic minority who uses the minority language at home only and the majority language in all other domains of life, the Deaf person who uses sign language with her friends but uses the written form of the spoken language with a hearing person, and so on. Despite the great diversity that exists between these people, they all lead their lives with more than one language.
………..

Reference: “Describing bilinguals”. Chapter 2 of Grosjean, François (2010). Bilingual: Life and Reality. Cambridge, Mass: Harvard University Press.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/life-bilingual/201010/who-is-bilingual

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Clarissa

August 9, 2016

I speak fluent Spanish and English and am constantly confused by Argentineans for a compatriot. But that has nothing whatsoever to do with true bilingualism. I only have a single native language. Just like pretty much everybody. And once this single native language sets in as Spanish, or what’s worse, Spanglish, the life opportunities of the speakers are reduced dramatically. It’s simply cruel to do this to immigrant children.

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1. The Dark Avenger
  
  August 10, 2016
  
  We are learning a lot more about language acquisition and the regions of the brain involved in those activities.
  
  https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150716135054.htm
  
  In past decades, much has changed about the understanding of bilingualism. Early on, bilingualism was thought to be a disadvantage because the presence of two vocabularies would lead to delayed language development in children. However, it has since been demonstrated that bilingual individuals perform better, compared with monolinguals, on tasks that require attention, inhibition and short-term memory, collectively termed “executive control.”
  
  This “bilingual advantage” is believed to come about because of bilinguals’ long-term use and management of two spoken languages. But skepticism still remains about whether these advantages are present, as they are not observed in all studies. Even if the advantage is robust, the mechanism is still being debated.
  
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  1. David Gendron
    
    August 10, 2016
    
    This is interesting but the main issue here is the fact that there’s a problem when Spanglish is the only option available.
    
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    1. The Dark Avenger
      
      August 10, 2016
      
      As Sherman T Potter used to say on the TV series M.A.S.H. horse picky. Worrying about Spanglish is like worrying about the sky falling.
      
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      1. David Gendron
        
        August 10, 2016
        
        Nobody is worry about Spanglish here per se. But Spanglish should not be the only option available.
        
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      2. David Gendron
        
        August 10, 2016
        
        (Nobody here)
        
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xykademiqz

August 9, 2016

I agree with you. The liberal insistence on multiculturalism is really just a disguised desire to ghettoize. The first step to getting any sort of decent-paying job is being able to speak the dominant language well. That is the difference between washing dishes (poor pay, no contact with customers) and being a waiter at a restaurant (contact with customers, greater pay from tips); the difference between being a grader (no contact with undergrads, pays like $hit) vs a TA in graduate school… My colleague who teaches at a small undergrad school wanted to upgrade institutions to one where he’d be able to do more research (still undergrad focused). He went to several interviews but no offers. I guarantee that his extraordinarily thick accent and poor command of the language played a considerable role, because he still uses his native tongue at home, with kids and wife, and sounds no different than the day he got off the plane 15 years ago.

Since you are trained in linguistics, I would appreciate if you could write more about the acquisition of language, the relationship between language and one’s understanding of the word, and what you know about early exposure to multiple languages vs acquiring second, third, etc., languages later in life (elementary or middle school, even adulthood).

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August 9, 2016

? Bilingual ed of different types has existed in Cali for decades, I believe at some points in as many as 200 languages. There are things like kids who already speak Spanish and English going to Chinese immersion in SF public schools. It’s not a bad thing.

What really marginalized people was lack of bilingual ed. I can remember in elementary school the immigrants from various places, who could not communicate at all and nobody had a clue to how to talk to them. They were ignored and marginalized, not assimilated in monolingual settings.

Proposition 58 is about multilingual education, not “Spanglish” — https://ballotpedia.org/California_Multilingual_Education_Act,Proposition_58(2016) and it would repeal the xenophobic and limiting proposition 227 of 1998.

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cliff arroyo

August 9, 2016

It might help if you define what you mean by “Spanglish” since that term has been used in many different ways by different authors.

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Clarissa

August 9, 2016

My interest in the issue expired at the exact moment where a professor from California informed us that it’s discriminatory to teach children of immigrants to say “doce” instead of “diecidos.” These poor kids won’t even be employable in Spanish, let alone in English thanks to these officious fools.

It’s the same issue as not teaching black students to say “I was working” or “she was studying” because “they have their own language.”

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1. Z
  
  August 12, 2016
  
  Said professor did not speak Spanish, And everyone likes bad teacher stories, but this is an anecdote, not a study or a policy document. And “diecidos” is something English speakers say, not Spanish or “Spanglish” speakers, and not immigrant children, whose parents speak Spanish.
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    August 12, 2016
    
    Actually, this person was a native speaker of Spanish. And the students she was talking about were children of immigrants with next to no English.
    
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sheddingkhawatir

August 9, 2016

You should actually read bilingualism research before making these claims–it demonstrates that quality bilingual education actually helps non-English speakers develop their academic skills IN ENGLISH, with maintenance of their heritage language as a bonus (do you seriously want them to lose this or think this is an either or choice?). I am not sure what your definition of Spanglish is, but mixing languages (which has various names depending on your perspective) is a completely normal activity for multilingual speakers, and does not prevent them from being monolingual when necessary, which surely you must know from experience!

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Clarissa

August 9, 2016

If you don’t know what Spanglish is, maybe this is not a good thread for you.

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1. sheddingkhawatir
  
  August 9, 2016
  
  Oh, I know what Spanglish is–a completely normal mixture of Spanish and English used by speakers of these two languages. Such words exist for lots of combinations of languages (arabizi, franglais, etc.).
  
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  1. David Gendron
    
    August 9, 2016
    
    Speaking Spanglish is not being bilingual.
    
    We have the same problem with the Franglais in Québec.
    
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    1. Clarissa
      
      August 9, 2016
      
      Of course, it isn’t. Problem is, nobody is really bilingual. Everybody has their one native language. Yours is French, mine is Russian. The real tragedy is when children of immigrants are not socialized into having the language of their new country as their language but are allowed to exist in a weird mix of languages. In Spanglish it’s usually English expressions translated verbatim into Spanish. Since English is highly idiomatic, the result is ridiculous. It expresses nothing and does not justice to either language. And since we are talking about children, it’s deeply immoral not to socialize them into the language of their new country.
      
      The problem with California’s Mexicans is that the majority of them don’t plan to stay. They always hope to return to Mexico and as a result do nothing to socialize children into the new culture. Helping them in this project by using state funds is simply ridiculous. The schools are these children’s only chance to assimilate.
      
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      1. David Gendron
        
        August 9, 2016
        
        And making promotion of Spanglish or Franglais are utter nonsensical.
        
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        David Gendron
        
        August 9, 2016
        
        is
        
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        Clarissa
        
        August 9, 2016
        
        Absolutely. When a brilliantly educated doctoral student speaks Franglais for fun with a couple of friends over drinks as a joke, that’s great. But when an immigrant is offered Franglais as the only option, that’s simply wrong.
        
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        David Gendron
        
        August 9, 2016
        
        Exactly!
        
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      2. Z
        
        August 12, 2016
        
        Mais, get a grip, c´est un commentaire assez ignorant. The people going back and forth in those lands have been doing it since long before Columbus, much less the arrival of the US.
        
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        Clarissa
        
        August 12, 2016
        
        What happened before Columbus is irrelevant to the educational policies of today. The only issue here is whether an effort will be made to integrate these children or if they will be pushed into a ghetto to reduce competition for the locals. Of course, the ghettoization is presented as hugely progressive and done for the benefit of the children. But it’s inspired by the same fear of immigrants that drives Trump’s supporters.
        
        The hatred of immigrants is just as strong on the left as it is in the right.
        
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        Clarissa
        
        August 12, 2016
        
        If the prop suggested a significant investment of public funds into an integration of these children into English as their first language- which is quite possible if they are under the age of 15 – I would be for that completely. Because that’s what is best for the children.
        
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  2. Clarissa
    
    August 9, 2016
    
    When was the last time you actually spoke with people who have no other language than this “completely normal” Spanglish? How are their lives going? Did they graduate high school? Are they employed? Because the ones I’ve met are not doing all that well. And something tells me I’m meeting a lot more of them than you do.
    
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    1. sheddingkhawatir
      
      August 9, 2016
      
      I interact with Spanglish speakers on a near daily basis. They speak English to me since I don’t speak Spanish, but I hear them speaking Spanglish to others. Obviously they will speak Spanglish with you because you speak Spanish and English so perhaps you don’t realize that they are capable of differentiating languages. Do your research (I’m sure you have access to the LLBA) and don’t blame poor education on bilingualism–there are plenty of monolingual English speakers in the U.S. whose lack of English language skills prevent them from graduating high school and getting jobs. There are also many speakers of languages other than English who have terrible education in the US and suffer accordingly. However, the research is pretty clear that children who speak Spanish at home, enroll in kindergarten speaking only Spanish, and are enrolled in quality dual language programs end up English dominant by 5th grade.
      
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      1. David Gendron
        
        August 9, 2016
        
        If they speak English, Spanglish is not a big issue. The problem would be if Spanglish would be the only option available.
        
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      2. Clarissa
        
        August 9, 2016
        
        I know this is some sort of a sore issue with you but I have to ask you to keep yourself under control on my blog. This is not the first time that you become strangely aggressive on the subject of language learning. I respect the traumas you have in this area but I’m not qualified to offer help.
        
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      3. The Dark Avenger
        
        August 10, 2016
        
        Don’t bother citing facts and the latest research, it’s like arguing with a 19th Century physicist over the existence of the luminiferous ether.
        
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        David Gendron
        
        August 10, 2016
        
        Out of topic. This is about Spanglish being the only option available, not bilingual education.
        
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        Clarissa
        
        August 10, 2016
        
        These “facts” and “research” have been so manipulated for political purposes that their value is nil. One can cite a dozen “studies” to support either point of view. I know how these “studies” are conducted and they are nothing short of pathetic. Second language acquisition and linguistics are, sadly, not respectable fields of knowledge in North America. In academia, they are the butt of every joke.
        
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        The Dark Avenger
        
        August 10, 2016
        
        Nope
        
        <blockquoteNeurocognition of Language Learning
        Research in the domain of language learning during development has allowed us to specify the neurophysiological markers reflecting phonological, lexical and syntactic processes early in life, and to describe their course of maturation (see Friederici, 2005 & 2006).
        
        Our studies suggest that, once developed, these processes and their neural underpinnings are qualitatively similar to those of the adult system, but are quantitatively different. Thus, their time course is slowed, and their localization is less segregated. Current research focuses on the relation between language development and brain maturation.
        
        In the domain of adult language learning, we have investigated the neurophysiological characteristics of late learners of natural grammars in recent years. Currently, we are focusing on the learning of artificial grammars in which we can systematically vary the absence or presence of semantic and prosodic information in order to determine the impact of these parameters on language learning.
        
        Publications
        1
        Friederici, A. D.:
        Language development and the ontogeny of the dorsal pathway.
        Frontiers in Evolutionary Neuroscience 2012 (online published)
        MPG.PuRe
        DOI
        2
        Friederici, A. D.:
        The neural basis of language development and its impairment.
        Neuron 52 (6), pp. 941-952 (2006)
        MPG.PuRe
        DOI
        3
        Friederici, A. D.:
        Neurophysiological markers of early language acquisition: from syllables to sentences.
        Trends in Cognitive Sciences 9 (10), pp. 481-488 (2005)
        MPG.PuRe
        DOI
        
        http://www.cbs.mpg.de/departments/neuropsychology/neurocognition-of-language-learning
        
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2. cliff arroyo
  
  August 11, 2016
  
  “If you don’t know what Spanglish is, maybe this is not a good thread for you.”
  
  Well you’re using the term in a very different way than it usually is. Traditionally Spanglish refers to either
  
  a) Code-switching of the kind that people proficient in more than one langauge engage in very frequently.
  
  b) Calque-infested Spanish of the kind that occurs when the ATM machine informs you that your transaction “|esta siendo procesada” instead of “se procesa ahora”
  
  c) Spanish with lots of calques and/or English loans “taipear” instead of “escribir a maquina”, alternately with false friends being used in their English rather Spanish meaning “Actualmente no he hecho nada” instead of “en realidad no he hecho nada”
  
  I’ve never heard it being used to refer to non-standard native varieties of Spanish. “diecidos” is no more English influenced than naiden for nadie is.
  
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David Gendron

August 9, 2016

We have the same problem in Québec. You’re absolutely right.

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Clarissa

August 9, 2016

Quebec, for instance, is absolutely right in making it clear that immigrants need to learn the language as their top priority. I wish everybody had such great programs as Quebec does.

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1. cliff arroyo
  
  August 11, 2016
  
  “I wish everybody had such great programs as Quebec does.”
  
  For what language? IIRC you, and later your family, rejected French for English.
  
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  1. David Gendron
    
    August 11, 2016
    
    That’s why I talked about Québec here.
    
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  2. Clarissa
    
    August 11, 2016
    
    For French, of course. And yes, they failed with us completely. I think they would have been more successful if it weren’t for the human factor that supersedes governmental action every time. The French-speaking community of Quebec is inhospitable to immigrants no matter what they speak. French speakers are very reluctant to be friends with anybody who is not like them. And English-speakers are a lot more open. Of course, one ends up going where one isn’t constantly rebuffed.
    
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    1. David Gendron
      
      August 11, 2016
      
      You know this is not my case, but you’re right. 😈
      
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      1. David Gendron
        
        August 11, 2016
        
        Probably because French Speakers are very reluctant to be friends with anybody who’s not like them! 😈
        
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valter07

August 10, 2016

I don’t know… I guess I have some philosophical problem with the whole ideology of assimilating into dominant culture the way it happens to be at the current moment. To give you a somewhat extreme example, if things always have to be run to just maximize practical usefulness and save public resources, then good ole Soviet Union should not have allowed any minority language schools. Everybody should have been educated strictly in Russian. Because obviously those who spoke Russian as their mother tongue or at the same level had various advantages in the context of that time, following from the history of the Russian Empire and its reincarnation known as the Soviet Union. And one could argue that those who did not have sufficient command of Russian were “ghettoized”. Besides, this would allow Soviet Union to avoid all kinds of problems resulting from the emergence of national intelligentsia and national-liberation movements…
Maybe California has to be as bilingual as Estonian SSR was under the Soviet rule? Has anyone proven that in the long run it will be worse than English-dominated melting pot? Melting pot model is just one possible way to run things, which worked fine for a while because it was compatible with the whole set of ideas about what nation-state is about, what is required for national unity, that national unity is more important than self-fulfillment of individual people, and so on and so forth. In a different context one can imagine a melting pot based on some other principles and common goals (academia functions decently despite being full of people with imperfect English) or no melting pot at all.
Bringing Quebec into this discussion makes it even more confusing. Because in Quebec it is officially believed that if citizens are given freedom of choice, they will naturally choose English. Even in Francophone-dominated society. Hence choosing English (as a language of education in public schools) is forbidden to immigrants and Francophones alike. And yet in California allowing too much bilingualism will suddenly be such an awful detriment to studying English…

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Clarissa

August 10, 2016

In Ukraine everybody was educated strictly in Russian. At least in my region. This is why I keep saying that there are no native speakers of Ukrainian in Ukraine. And of course the Soviet parents who would prevent their children from learning Russian would be horrible people.

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1. valter07
  
  August 11, 2016
  
  Sorry to hear that. In Estonian SSR there were many Estonian-language schools (where Russian was of course an obligatory subject) , and on average they were better than Russian-language ones. Even on the university level some subjects were available only in Estonian.
  
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Evelina Anville

August 10, 2016

I agree with Z’s comments here. Bilingual education programs actually aid in assimilation. I recommend the work of Steven Krashen here. There are many reasons why I support bilingual education–especially in California–but the following is my most compelling reason. And that is, in a nutshell, bilingual education helps ensure that students don’t fall behind in other subjects while their language skills are still developing.

To give an example, let’s say it’s the third grade and the children are learning fractions–a difficult concept for many children. What should we do with the ELL (English Language Learner) child in that context? It is very difficult to understand a concept like fractions explained in a imperfectly understood language. And since math is so progressive if a child falls behind in math, it becomes hard to catch up. So even the child achieve English fluency, s/he is still behind in math–which actually limits scholastic and career success and inhibits assimilation.

So it’s better, I think, to instruct the child in content areas (like math) in the child’s original language, make sure that s/he learns the necessary skills/concepts to compete in our modern world, and then when the child does achieve English fluency, s/he has the skill set and the language skills. So I’m a huge supporter of bilingual education–but it is expensive and time consuming.

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TomW

August 11, 2016

Like so many things, the devil is in the details and the implementation. Bilingual education sounds great in theory and appears to work very well when it has been tested under ideal conditions. But when implemented on a broad scale, schools often struggle to find good math, science, history, etc. teachers who can teach in the children’s home language, so the kids do fall behind and get less than ideal instruction in subject matter. There are also some real problems with linking proficiency (proficiency is a better defined term than fluency) to the transition to a English language classroom. How are we measuring English language proficiency? And just how proficient does a child have to be before he/she is moved into a mainstream English language classroom?

The fact is, most people don’t reach the highest levels of proficiency from classroom-based instruction. Once you’ve established a solid base in a second language, which you can do quite well in a classroom setting, you make the most progress in the language when you are forced to interact with lots of native speakers. My understanding from critiques of the bilingual programs, is that they have tended to keep kids in the bilingual programs for very long times, 6-8 years in some cases, insisting that the kids’ English skills have to be approaching native-speaker proficiency before they transition to primarily English language classrooms. But after a certain amount of English instruction, isolating the kids from native speakers of English is precisely what prevents their English from improving to near native-speaker levels. You cite Steven Krashen in your support for bilingual education, but Krashen’s most influential idea, the i+1, points straight at the problem of bilingual education programs, the +1 is something beyond your current level that forces you to improve. At some point, you need contact with native speakers and a wide variety of materials to get that +1.

There are also lots of perverse financial incentives built into this stuff; schools get extra state and federal funds for kids who don’t speak English. There is often a financial incentive for the school districts to keep kids in the bilingual programs longer than is good for the kids in order to keep that money flowing.

I don’t think it’s a good idea to just dump kids in English language classrooms and let them sink or swim, but programs need to be set up with incentives to get the kids into English medium classes as soon as it is reasonable to do so.

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1. Clarissa
  
  August 11, 2016
  
  What a great comment. Thank you for writing it. Everything you say makes total sense.
  
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2. Z
  
  August 12, 2016
  
  Here French immersion seems not to teach French. Nine years of French immersion and they only place into the beginning of second year French in college. And the teachers are native French speakers, imported from around the world to try to teach people to speak their putative native language. Despite all of this they persist in speaking English.
  
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3. cliff arroyo
  
  August 12, 2016
  
  “Bilingual education sounds great in theory and appears to work very well when it has been tested under ideal conditions”
  
  Well a lot depends on who the kids are and what the goal is.
  
  A program designed to get the very young children of immigrants into the national language ASAP will be structured very differently from one intended to gradually transfer older children while not stopping the learning process entirely. Is getting young teenagers into English class so important that they should stop learning history or math until they can do so in English?
  
  Programs designed to revive-preserve a threatened indigenous language (like Hopi or Choctaw) will also be very different from those designed to preserve a heritage language (like French or Spanish in some parts of the US).
  
  Also the languages involved makes a difference. Children of hmong speaking immigrants (with not much written hertiage) will have different needs from languages with long written traditions (like Vietnamese or Korean) while children from post-colonial societies like the Phillipines will have their own issues.
  
  Add the end of the nation state. The idea of one local “official” language that all are expected to be literate in is tied to the nation state and will not survive it (is not surviving it as we write here).
  
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August 12, 2016

\an integration of these children into English as their first language- which is quite possible if they are under the age of 15

How does “first language” concept differ from “mother tongue”?

If a young teenager immigrates to Israel, for instance, before the age of 15, can Hebrew become “their first language” after integration? Or is it completely different for those Spanish kids since they have to be integrated into a different dialect rather than language?

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cliff arroyo

August 12, 2016

“How does “first language” concept differ from “mother tongue”?

They’re usually different terms for the same idea. Mother tongue seems to be gaining in popularity I almost never heard it before a few years ago (despite having lots of classes related to multilingualism many years ago – we all said “first language(s)” or “native language” back then.

Theoretically, they can be different with mother tongue only used for a language acquired from birth and ‘first language’ being the language that the person is most fluent in even if it wasn’t acquired from birth (though some use the term ‘primary language’ for a person’s second or third language which they use better than their first language).

Henry Kissinger is a good example of someone for whom English wasn’t his first language but the language he was most fluent in as an adult (also IIRC Golda Meier also had a strong non-native accent in Hebrew).

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1. Clarissa
  
  August 12, 2016
  
  Fluidity is creating people who don’t really have a first language in the full sense of the word. They speak several languages but are not truly comfortable in any. They have trouble understanding nuance, their vocabulary doesn’t expand past a certain limit, they don’t engage with a language creatively. It’s a very sad thing to observe.
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    August 12, 2016
    
    And idiots slobber all over these sad situations. “Oh wow, he lived in so many countries as a kid and speaks so many languages! That’s so cool!” As if 10 superficially dominated languages could substitute one truly native language.
    
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Clarissa

August 12, 2016

Of course, absolutely. All children can be integrated into a new first language. All that is needed is to give them a chance. The only children I’ve seen who don’t integrate into a new language upon immigration are the ones who are actively ghettoized.

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August 12, 2016

\Of course, absolutely. All children can be integrated into a new first language.

So, my 1st language is Hebrew now (write with mistakes in Russian and sometimes may stress some Russian word incorrectly or forget some word), but I am still a native Russian speaker, which is merely the way one’s brain was “tuned in” in infancy and has zero connection to actually knowing the language in question?

What does “engage with a language creatively” mean?

\As if 10 superficially dominated languages could substitute one truly native language.

I am unsure I fully agree. Unless Hebrew is my truly native language now, then I know 3 languages quite well but not on “truly native language” level.

I am very sad not to have Russian on that level and tried not to acknowledge that, but it seems like the bitter truth after using the language only at home after 7 grades of Russian school education and living in purely Russian-speaking environment. And I am, as you say, “truly comfortable” in Hebrew.

Regarding “people who don’t really have a first language in the full sense of the word”, the situation may be more complex than you presented. For instance, I would need only to live a few years in Russia to regain and improve my control of the language to (hopefully) first language level. And Hebrew already is on that level. People may have several potential almost-first languages and change them during their lives, depending on environment. Of course, I don’t talk about children who were moved among various language environments non-stop.

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Clarissa

August 12, 2016
“So, my 1st language is Hebrew now (write with mistakes in Russian and sometimes may stress some Russian word incorrectly or forget some word), but I am still a native Russian speaker, which is merely the way one’s brain was “tuned in” in infancy and has zero connection to actually knowing the language in question?”
- I never heard you speak either language, so I can’t say. If somebody wakes you from a deep sleep, what language will it be the easiest for you to begin speaking in?
“What does “engage with a language creatively” mean?”
- For instance, I come up with at least half a dozen new words and a dozen little rhymes in Russian daily. I couldn’t do that in Spanish, for instance. And when I do it in English, Russian suffixes always creep in. I engage creatively with English, too, (like when I invented the word “freakazoid”) but on a much more modest scale.
“For instance, I would need only to live a few years in Russia to regain and improve my control of the language to (hopefully) first language level.”
- That’s quite possible. I never observed such a person, so I can’t say. I only speak to what I have observed.
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1. el
  
  August 12, 2016
  
  \If somebody wakes you from a deep sleep, what language will it be the easiest for you to begin speaking in?
  
  Don’t know … Not English? 🙂
  
  Many immigrants after X years in Israel speak in Russian infused with Hebrew words. That’s what we do too and it’s easy to do after waking from any sleep. For instance, it’s more natural to say ирия (stress on the last letter) than муниципалетет.
  
  \For instance, I come up with at least half a dozen new words and a dozen little rhymes in Russian daily. I couldn’t do that in Spanish
  
  I have never done that in any language.
  
  Btw, do you know any free Internet quizzes which determine well the richness of vocabulary in any language? I once tried “Check your vocabulary” type quizzes for Russian and English, but am unsure they were trustworthy.
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    August 12, 2016
    
    The GRE test in English is the best.
    
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2. valter07
  
  August 13, 2016
  
  Clarissa, I am afraid that being the professional in a field related to language you seem to overemphasize its importance… Sorry, can’t resist teasing you – we used to know, albeit virtually, one more such person… a writer. Or maybe you have very high expectations of fellow human beings. Most of the people who know only one language – their first and only – cannot be as creative with it as you describe. Unless you count the ability of some Russian-speakers to express any thought using five different roots and all kinds of suffixes and prefixes… 🙂 🙂 So as good as it may be to have the ability to engage with language creatively, setting it as some sort of standard for people who are for some reason b- tri- or more-lingual is a bit too much.
  What about a more utilitarian approach, focusing on communications – being able to communicate the exact thought one has, and being able to understand the thought conversation partner has, including shades of meaning, ideomatic expressions, some cultural context? My example shows, or so I want to believe, that one can do that in at least three languages, without tricking people into believing that I am a native speaker of any of them. (I actually am, but Russians from Russia think I have accent… I believe Russian-speakers from Estonia have some sort of “govor”, the phenomenon of the same variety as vOlOgodski or mAskovski accent. 🙂 )
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    August 13, 2016
    
    Yes, of course, I’m special and all. ☺But people invent words and expressions in English all the time. Every year there is a list of new words that get added to the OED.
    
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August 12, 2016

On another topic, I read an interesting article about Poland and refugees and wanted to ask whether you agree with their use of the word “multicultural”:

\ Despite its rich multicultural past, with significant Jewish, German, Lithuanian and Ukrainian minorities living side-by-side within its old pre-WW2 borders, contemporary Poland is one of the most homogenous states in the EU.

Is living in proximity enough to earn the name “multicultural,” even if different ethnic groups distrust each other and there is no real equality? I suppose, I was confused by the term “multiculturalism,” which is a different thing altogether?

For instance, Israeli population is ~20% Muslim, but we are not a multicultural society but like an old European nation-state with large (and hostile) minority population.

Another interesting finding:

\ In June 2015 a poll by CBOS showed that 53% of Polish respondents were against granting asylum to Africans and those from the Middle East, while only 36% felt the same way about Ukrainian asylees. \

I don’t think racism provides the full explanation. Polish people know Ukrainians will be self-supporting, while Syrians and Africans will most likely require long-term support.

The article itself:

Polish society is currently strongly divided into those who support and those who oppose refugee assistance, with the latter seemingly being the majority. While the topic has stayed in the newspaper headlines, the government has been resistant to adapt to new realities, or search for an EU-wide solution to the problem. It is mostly small groups of individuals who are filling the gap, coming up with concrete ways to help re-envision a new European solidarity.
http://visegradrevue.eu/poland-and-refugees-some-people-are-more-welcome-than-others/

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cliff arroyo

August 12, 2016

“Is living in proximity enough to earn the name “multicultural,” even if different ethnic groups distrust each other and there is no real equality? I suppose, I was confused by the term “multiculturalism,” which is a different thing altogether?”

That’s always been multiculturalism. In truly multicultural places your educational, occupational and marital possibilities were heavily… limited by the cultural/linguistic/ethnic/religious group you happened to be born into.

The only way to govern such a place is for the government to not concern itself with either education or elections.

Again, modern post-nation-state-fluidity is more a reversion to the past (think Ottoman empire) than anything new and different and exciting (except for a small fringe at the top).

“I don’t think racism provides the full explanation. Polish people know Ukrainians will be self-supporting, while Syrians and Africans will most likely require long-term support.”

That’s part of it. It’s true that Ukrainians don’t require much in the way of language and cultural support (especially if they are at all proficient in Ukrainian) and are more interested in working than in collecting benefits. There are adaptive problems but nothing they need a bunch of government programs to implement.

But also remember that almost all Poles have either lived/worked abroad themselves and/or have friends or family who have. They’ve seen how muslim and sub-saharan immigrants/refugees behave in western Europe and they don’t want that in their own country.

“Polish society is currently strongly divided into those who support and those who oppose refugee assistance, with the latter seemingly being the majority”

This is crazy. I run in more academic circles (by definition more progressive than the mainstream here) I have yet to meet a single Polish person who thinks that Merkel’s actions are anything but insane (and this includes the Muslims I know that I’ve spoken to about political stuff). I suppose there are some cranks somewhere who approve but I’ve yet to meet them.

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1. Clarissa
  
  August 12, 2016
  
  I also have an impression that the general mood in Poland is heavily opposed to inviting refugees. And it would be bizarre to expect anything different from Eastern Europeans. If we are going to be all multicultural, why not start with respecting the life experiences of Eastern Europeans?
  
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  1. el
    
    August 12, 2016
    
    \And it would be bizarre to expect anything different from Eastern Europeans.
    
    Are there other life experiences besides being accustomed to highly homogenious societies and being poor?
    
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  2. el
    
    August 12, 2016
    
    \ Are there other life experiences besides being accustomed to highly homogenious societies and being poor?
    
    Could experiences of former colonization by Russia and others play a role too by making Eastern Europeans suspicious of outsiders and almost paranoid about some group of newcomers depriving them of something?
    
    Or influence them in other fashions.
    
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    1. Clarissa
      
      August 12, 2016
      
      People are only now starting to build a social safety net. Asking them to give it up because Germans are dismantling theirs is unfair. It’s like a First World dieter asking a person in Guatemala to eat less.
      
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August 12, 2016

Finished reading this article and was surprised by :

\ In 2014, before the refugee crisis, there were as many as 778 “hate crimes” recorded by the Polish police, many of them targeting ethnic and religious minorities. Yet in April of this year (2016), the Polish government decided to abolish the national watchdog that monitored and investigated hate crimes, the Council Against Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance, which was founded in 2011. The Council was judged “ineffective,” soon after Poland’s Human Rights Ombudsman, Adam Bodnar, warned of increasing hate speech and racial beatings in the country.
…
Grotniki, a village near Łódź, hosts one of 11 asylum centers in Poland, and it is here that many asylees coming from the former Soviet Republics await decisions that determine their refugee statuses. The center, which opened in 2010, has had no major problems, until recently, when Grotniki residents asked for the camp to be relocated due to the possibility that the center may host Syrian refugees. And in March of this year, the ONR decided to “intervene” by organizing street patrols to “ensure the safety” of Poles in Grotniki.

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August 12, 2016

The Russian military can outgun British troops on the battlefield, the army has admitted in a leaked report laying bare the firepower, hacking technology and propaganda developed by President Putin’s state.

The report, seen by The Times, warned that Russian weapons, including rocket launchers and air defence systems, were more powerful than their British equivalents, giving Mr Putin a “significant capability edge”.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/russia-has-edge-over-us-in-battle-army-admits-tsl7j63f5

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Clarissa

August 12, 2016

These Russian launchers and defense systems don’t really exist. They are mostly fictional. Some are made of cardboard.

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August 12, 2016

Never liked raw meat and now turns out it’s extremely dangerous:

http://www.germanjoys.eu/2014/10/uncooked-meat-drives-you-crazy.html

In case any readers like steak tartare.

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Clarissa

August 12, 2016

I like it. How sad. 😣

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1. cliff arroyo
  
  August 12, 2016
  
  I rather like tatar myself and hope the vodka swilled down with it (the only time I drink straight vodka) would disinfect it.
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    August 12, 2016
    
    Oh, absolutely. Vodka makes anything edible. It’s a pity I detest it. It smells like Soviet dentists.
    
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    1. xykademiqz
      
      August 13, 2016
      
      [Vodka] smells like Soviet dentists.
      
      😀
      
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