Understanding

Laramie, Wichita, Terre Haute, Little Rock, Omaha, Akron, Tulsa, Morgantown – I don’t have to Google these places because I know immediately what states they are in. I’m very glad I got to live in the Midwest because it’s a beautiful, majestic place, and I learned a lot living here.

Before I understood this region, I used to say idiotic, ignorant things and feel profoundly convinced of their brilliance. If I hadn’t come here, today I might be one of those boneheads who rant about the “stupid racist hicks” who elected Trump. I would still think that the deep-country religiosity is meaningless fanaticism, dislike of government is small-mindedness, attachment to gun rights is sexual dysfunction, and talk about family values is hypocrisy.

This hasn’t changed who I am. If anything, I’m more pro-gay rights, pro-choice, pro-federal welfare, reparations, affirmative action, etc. The only position of mine that has changed is that I’m no longer against school prayer or religious signs on public buildings. Symbolic gestures are not worth hitting people on something that informs their existence so profoundly. And fostering even more hatred of the federal government for nothing is dumb.

I read all of those rants about flyover rednecks with their crazy jesusy beliefs and poky small-time lives and feel happy that I’m no longer one of the fools who can write such rubbish. Understanding does not mean joining or justifying. It means enlarging your own perspective and enriching your own worldview.

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The Dark Avenger

January 9, 2017

It’s not illegal for students to pray in public schools, it’s illegal for authority figures to have public prayer sessions in taxpayer public schools leading schoolchildren who may not be of the faith that the prayers are derived from.

Also, it kinda goes against the 1st Amendment.

It’s too bad you pay more attention to propaganda from the other side than try to get the facts straight on a given issue.

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Clarissa

January 9, 2017

I love to witness poutiness at this time of day. ☺

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1. The Dark Avenger
  
  January 9, 2017
  
  Tell the truth and shame the devil, bless your heart
  
  WHAT IF WE PUT IT TO A VOTE?
  That doesn’t change anything. In the United States, each individual has certain fundamental freedoms — including freedom of religion. These can’t be taken away, even by “majority rule.”
  Think about your friends who have different faiths or no religious beliefs at all. They’d still feel excluded from their own graduation exercises. Or worse, they’d feel like the school thought your religion was better than theirs. Put the shoe on the other foot for a second and think about how that would make you feel!
  
  IS IT EVER OK TO PRAY IN SCHOOL?
  Sure. Individual students have the right to pray whenever they want to, as long as they don’t disrupt classroom instruction or other educational activities — or try to force others to pray along with them. If a school official has told you that you can’t pray at all during the school day, your right to exercise your religion is being violated. Contact your local ACLU for help.
  
  IS IT OK TO CELEBRATE RELIGIOUS HOLIDAYS IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS?
  It depends. Making Christmas stockings, Easter eggs or Hannukah dreidels is probably okay because, over the years, these have become secular customs that people of many different backgrounds enjoy. But a Nativity pageant, which is full of religious meaning, could be considered unconstitutional.
  
  WHAT ABOUT RELIGIOUS CLUBS OR BIBLE DISTRIBUTION?
  Student-organized Bible clubs are OK as long as three conditions are met:
  (1) the activity must take place during non-school hours; (2) school officials can’t be involved in organizing or running the club, and (3) the school must make its facilities available to all student groups on an equal basis. So your Bible club couldn’t be the only group allowed access to the school grounds. Neither could your school let other student groups use the building for meetings and events and deny your Bible club the same opportunity.
  The organized distribution of Bibles or any other holy book during the school day is unconstitutional, even if teachers aren’t the ones actually handing out the Bibles, and even if they’re not used as a part of the school’s educational program. That’s because the school building or grounds are still being used to spread a religious doctrine at a time when students are required to be there.
  That’s what religious freedom is all about — you are free to worship as you choose — even if that means not at all.
  
  https://www.aclu.org/other/your-right-religious-freedom?redirect=your-right-religious-freedom
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    January 9, 2017
    
    Is that the same ACLU that believes toilets are a civil rights issue?
    
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    1. The Dark Avenger
      
      January 9, 2017
      
      I haven’t checked, you tell me.
      
      Their stance on religious freedom isn’t predicated on the logic, or lack thereof, of their stance on transgender issues.
      
      If there is a flaw or something you disagree with in what they say about American religious freedom, that would be interesting.
      
      👽⚛☢☣
      
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      1. Clarissa
        
        January 9, 2017
        
        So if I’m horrified by Trump’s statements on banning Muslims, my knowledge of this should in no way color my perception of what he says on other issues? My mind should become a blank slate every time he speaks?
        
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        The Dark Avenger
        
        January 9, 2017
        
        What do you find horrifying in the following?
        
        8
        
        Q
        
        Does the law protect a transgender person’s right to use the restroom consistent with their gender identity?
        A.
        There’s no clear answer here because very few courts have considered this question and the results have been mixed. In two recent positive decisions, an administrative agency in Colorado in 2013 and the Maine Supreme Court in 2014 both ruled that under those states’ gender identity discrimination laws, transgender girls had the right to use girls’ restrooms at their public schools. On the other hand, a 2001 Minnesota Supreme Court decision found that even a law prohibiting gender identity discrimination didn’t necessarily protect a transgender woman’s right to use the women’s restroom at work. And a federal appeals court in 2007 upheld the Utah Transit Authority’s decision to fire a transgender bus driver, based on a claim that her employer could be sued for her use of women’s public restrooms along her bus route. In a non-workplace context, a New York appeals court ruled in 2005 that it wasn’t sex discrimination for a building owner to prevent transgender people from using gender identity-appropriate restrooms in a building where several businesses shared restrooms.
        
        Authorities in some jurisdictions (e.g., Colorado, Iowa, Oregon, Washington State, San Francisco, New York City, and the District of Columbia), however, have specifically said that denying transgender people the right to use a gender identity-appropriate restroom violates their nondiscrimination laws. Some jurisdictions (e.g., Iowa, San Francisco, and D.C.) go farther and make clear that transgender people can’t be required to prove their gender to gain access to a public restroom, unless everyone has to show ID to use that restroom. Other jurisdictions (e.g., Chicago) continue to allow businesses to decide whether a transgender patron may access men’s or women’s restrooms based on the gender on their ID, which may or may not reflect accurately the person’s gender identity.
        
        Many businesses, universities, and other public places are installing single stall, gender-neutral restrooms, which alleviate many of the difficulties that transgender people experience when seeking safe restroom access.(Which is just like banning Muslims from coming into America-Ed) Some cities (such as Austin, Philadelphia, Washington, D.C., and West Hollywood) have local laws that require single-stall public restrooms to be labeled as unisex. While this is often a useful step towards addressing the concerns of transgender people and others, the ACLU believes that transgender people should have the right to use restrooms that match their gender identity rather than being restricted to only using gender-neutral ones.
        
        https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/transgender-people-and-law
        
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        Clarissa
        
        January 9, 2017
        
        There was a whole separate thread about this recently.
        
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        The Dark Avenger
        
        January 10, 2017
        
        Still doesn’t explain why you think mandated prayer in public school is the bee’s knees.
        
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        Clarissa
        
        January 10, 2017
        
        “Still doesn’t explain why you think mandated prayer in public school is the bee’s knees.”
        
        Can you read and retain information? I said earlier in the thread that I have no interest in school prayer. I wanted to see if people were able to discuss the text or if they’d fixate on minor departure from orthodoxy. It’s all in this very thread.
        
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        The Dark Avenger
        
        January 10, 2017
        
        The only position of mine that has changed is that I’m no longer against school prayer or religious signs on public buildings.
        
        But you can’t defend this position, and you’re not interested in school prayer.
        
        Got it, finally.
        
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Shakti

January 9, 2017

The only position of mine that has changed is that I’m no longer against school prayer or religious signs on public buildings.
It’s very easy to be for it when you’re of the dominant faith. In practice, that’s what it is. Of course, one of the reasons religious Catholic schools came about in this country is that people disagreed vehemently over what flavor of Christianity to have in public schools or in public buildings. Ok, say you want a cross on your federal courthouse. Does it have Christ on the cross or is there no Christ on that cross? Believe it or not, that’ s a huge debate. It’s never the mushy moderates who drive this.

This “no religion in public schools or places” comes about because nobody can agree and everyone throws a fit when other religions come in. You cannot have religion in public schools with people who throw fits over “Popery” or “festivals of darkness” or “passion plays” or “dreidels” or “yoga.” If you really and truly desire a religious education, there are religious schools where you can weave all that stuff in and have your kid pray 3-5 times a day.

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Clarissa

January 9, 2017

Of which dominant faith am I, exactly? ☺

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1. David P. Bellamy
  
  January 9, 2017
  
  “Of which dominant faith am I, exactly?”
  
  As I recall, you have claimed several times to be Christian, the dominant faith in the U. S. A.
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    January 9, 2017
    
    I’m not even baptized. And if I were to get baptized, it would be in the Russian Orthodox Church which is not even widely practiced in Russia. 😃😃😃
    
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Stringer Bell

January 9, 2017

I feel you’re creating a strawman here. Sure, there are angry bloggers who rant about midwestern hicks, etc. but overall, there is no subgroup of Americans that is more coddled. They’re called salt of the earth, ‘real’ americans (how insulting is it to the rest?). There’s a whole think-piece industry devoted to understanding their concerns, no matter how irrational. The mainstream media worships them, so do politicians on both sides.

Remember when Obama won and the media exhorted republicans to understand liberals? Me neither.

“The only position of mine that has changed is that I’m no longer against school prayer or religious signs on public buildings. Symbolic gestures..”

Haha, I’ve changed my position on this too, except in the other direction. My hindu parents sent me to a christian school where I said the lord’s prayer every morning and afternoon from kindergarten until 12th grade. Before I came to this country, I thought this wasn’t a big deal at all but then I changed my mind. Though, this could be a minority vs majority religion thing. I would feel more uncomfortable if students said hindu prayers in Indian public schools. These issues are less about religion and faith, and more about political domination. Just another way for dominant groups to show you Where It’s At. So, I do not consider this a symbolic gesture at all.

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Clarissa

January 9, 2017

This strawman is me ☺, the way I used to be.

I’m actually quite indifferent to school prayer but I wanted to see how fast I will be called on this minuscule departure from the orthodoxy. And it was immediate. It could have been anything – gun rights, late-term abortion, anything at all. I chose the tiniest issue nobody even talks about anymore but there is no conversation past that. This is not how majorities are won, especially at the local level which is becoming more important than the national.

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1. Stringer Bell
  
  January 9, 2017
  
  “this minuscule departure from the orthodoxy.”
  
  I’m sure that’s how Trump people will frame their departures from the orthodoxies of roe vs wade, etc. Before the election I thought many social issues were settled. Clearly, I was wrong. Everything seems to be on the table, ready to be re-litigated. We both think that the debate on school prayers was a thing of the past. I’m not so sure about it anymore.
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    January 9, 2017
    
    The Trump people have won. And it was curious to see how Republicans stepped over his life-long pro-Democrat statements because they wanted to win while Democrats turned their noses at Tim Kaine’s because a bizillion years ago he didn’t recite the orthodox views on abortion.
    
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    1. Clarissa
      
      January 9, 2017
      
      And Bernie Sanders? He wrote a humorous article back in 197-fucking-2 that was parsed for departures from orthodoxy and he was proclaimed a big old sexist. Melissa McEwan went on for months denouncing his supposed sexism. Some people I couldn’t even talk to about him because they HEARD about the article and dismissed him as sexist. Hadn’t even read it!
      
      That’s not a way to win.
      
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      1. Reuben
        
        January 10, 2017
        
        The left’s lack of pragmatism is and sadly always will be their biggest problem
        
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2. The Dark Avenger
  
  January 10, 2017
  
  I take it then, you consider the First Amendment an “orthodoxy”.
  
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  1. Clarissa
    
    January 10, 2017
    
    It’s like those people who get the joke a week after everybody else stopped laughing.
    
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    1. The Dark Avenger
      
      January 10, 2017
      
      Using an imaginary talent for wit in lieu of a substantial response, now that’s a real knee slapper.
      
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      1. Clarissa
        
        January 10, 2017
        
        I don’t know how to explain to you that the subject of the post is not prayer. It’s a very simple text but for some reason you are resisting it very fiercely. Which is ok, there are tons of other posts here.
        
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cliff arroyo

January 9, 2017

“If I hadn’t come here, today I might be one of those boneheads who rant about the “stupid racist hicks” who elected Trump.”

This is why my favorte twitter author is Chris Andrade (though his particular bailiwick is communities hit by addiction). He talks to people and listens and writes down what they say…. and there is no shortage of liberals telling him what a fool he is and how wrong is he is to talk to these people.

He understands why Trump won (people with no hope or active stake in a system will vote to burn it down in the hope of doing better in whatever grows up in its place).

Rather than pay attention most democrats have gotten on the ‘relect Trump in 2020!’ bandwagon.

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David P. Bellamy

January 9, 2017

“Rather than pay attention most democrats have gotten on the ‘relect Trump in 2020!’ bandwagon.”

Where did you get the data supporting this claim. I do not believe this at all.

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1. Clarissa
  
  January 9, 2017
  
  I want us to win in 2018. And 2020. And take back the governorships. I want that passionately. But I was bored at the airport last night and I read two weeks’ worth of my blog roll. What I’ve seen tells me we will keep losing until something changes in our approach.
  
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Clarissa

January 9, 2017

I’m all for getting rid of Trump in 2020 but I’m realizing that, to my horror, everything is being done to give him a landslide victory.

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David P. Bellamy

January 9, 2017

I grew up in public schools with Bible reading and prayer every morning. It was not something I questioned at all, since I thought everyone wanted it. I found out years later that my non-Christian (even just non-Protestant) classmates were disturbed by it. Christianity is not the only faith, and forcing Jewish, Hindu, or even atheist pupils to pray Protestant Xtian prayers is not right at all.

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Clarissa

January 9, 2017

When did I say I wanted to force anybody into anything?

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1. David P. Bellamy
  
  January 9, 2017
  
  Everyone was forced to listen, and could be disciplined for not reciting alout the Lord’s Prayer, for example, when I was a pupil in the 1950’s.
  
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  1. David P. Bellamy
    
    January 9, 2017
    
    Sorry. Reciting aloud.
    
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Shakti

January 10, 2017

I found out years later that my non-Christian (even just non-Protestant) classmates were disturbed by it.
That’s because most kids want to get along with their peers and teachers, and if you had known about it, you’d have witnessed a very public scene. Depending on the locality and the people around you, even just sitting or standing quietly while public prayers are going on agitates the others around you.

It’s just very funny to me I went to a religious school and nobody, not even the nuns had a problem with me sitting quietly while prayers were said but David Bellamy’s public school absolutely did. Different time, different locality?

The larger point about coalition building is that not everyone can comfortably fit into the same coalition. I know scores of religious people who would otherwise vote Republican who are turned off by the One True Theocracy aspect of the Republican party. The super religious people who think “Oh wow, prayer in school would be excellent” already have a home in the Republican party and are not going to abandon it for this sop. The people who are not super religious may still vote for you, but they sure as heck aren’t going to knock on doors and make phone calls, which matters immensely for the kinds of elections Clarissa is concerned about.

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Stringer Bell

January 9, 2017

Ha, Shakti was quicker on the draw!

I’ll add more thoughts. Isn’t this the soft bigotry of low expectations? That a concept (separation of church and state) that you consider a bedrock of western values should not be applied to ‘those’ people because, why exactly? Why do we want to compromise on something so fundamental?

You criticize some liberals who oppose, say, the veil ban in european countries. You’ve said that those liberals are bigoted because they do not think that muslims can be progressive, so they need protection from the state to continue their illiberal practices. That’s bigotry in of itself. And I agree.

Why then, are you making special dispensation for midwestern christians? Do you think they’re incapable of comprehending the glorious contributions of western civilization?

If muslim women wanted to wear veils, would you tell us to enlarge our perspective and enriching our world view?

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Clarissa

January 9, 2017

I don’t believe this has anything to do with the separation of church and state. And I would be completely opposed to anybody sitting thousands of miles away from a Muslim town and mandating that burqas be stripped off women in the name of liberation. I’m completely supportive of people in Saudi Arabia or UAE wearing whatever and I’d of course cover my head if I decided to go there for any duration of time.

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David Gendron

January 9, 2017

Students should not be forced to pray in public schools. Christian signs should not be worn in state buildings unless other religions’ signs are permitted.

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Clarissa

January 9, 2017

For the fifth time, nobody is saying anything about forcing anybody.

It’s like the moment one departs a millimeter from the prescribed wisdoms, people begin reciting things in a chorus. And it’s eerily like a prayer in its intensity, its sacred nature, and its immutability.

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1. David Gendron
  
  January 9, 2017
  
  Okay, so I’m against forbidding prayers and forcing prayers in public schools, sorry.
  
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2. David Gendron
  
  January 9, 2017
  
  Right now, there are forced praying in some public schools in Saskatchewan, so I thought that you meant the same thing.
  
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Tal Hartsfeld

January 10, 2017

One should take each person “one individual at a time”.

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sheddingkhawatir

January 10, 2017

“Understanding does not mean joining or justifying. It means enlarging your own perspective and enriching your own worldview. ”

This is actually why I love foreign language pedagogy–“Cultures of the Midwest” may not be offered, but once it’s “foreign” you can discuss these issues, and mention that the ability to understand that there are multiple valid ways of creating the world (that you may not “like”) comes in handy even when it’s not “foreign” 🙂

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Understanding

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