Reader el says:
What should US government do about obesity crisis? F.e. in a new Feminist post Jill says: “I’m glad that NYC mayor Michael Bloomberg has banned the sale of extra-large sugary drinks from some establishments”. Others disagree.
I have to say that I find this Bloomberg measure to be quite laughable. What is to prevent a person from buying 3 or 333 smaller drinks and gulping them down happily if that’s what s/he wants? What’s the point of trying to control the buying decisions of consumers?
The causes of overeating and poor eating culture cannot be addressed by governments. Overeating is caused by emotional problems (e.g. people who eat whenever they are stressed out, bored, upset, etc.), the legacy of on-demand breastfeeding that results in poor impulse control and the incapacity to stop eating between mealtimes, the need to self-medicate with food, etc. An eating culture is what we learn at home, with our families, as we grow up. If we see our parents practice unhealthy eating habits (eating on the run or standing up, eating massive amounts of junk food, frying everything and never eating fresh produce, etc.), there is no chance any governmental measures will break than pattern.
Maybe in terms of a very broad ideology, if the government showed self-restraint and stopped borrowing money like there is no tomorrow and invading other countries every fifteen seconds, that would help to create an environment where people know how to be happy without consuming all the time. As for actual legislation to force people to eat well, I find the idea to be bizarre.
The measures like the one Bloomberg has adopted in NYC are an example of the attitude that fosters overeating. Bloomberg sees the residents of his city as wayward children in need of his constant tutelage. Such helpless creatures cannot possibly come to see themselves as responsible adults who have to manage their own diets and take care of their own bodies.
As for the feminists who support Bloomberg’s measure, I want to remind them that if they support the government’s right to control what they put inside their bodies, so they should support its right to control what they remove from their bodies. There is absolutely no way one could simultaneously approve of Bloomberg’s measures and defend abortion rights.
Clarissa's Blog 
“On-demand breastfeeding”? Seriously? You think you can teach babies self-control by only feeding them at set mealtimes?
Withholding food from babies doesn’t make them less impulsive. They’ll just get hungrier and scream louder.
LikeLike
On-demand breastfeeding implies feeding them the second they show any sign of discomfort. In many cases, this discomfort has nothing to do with hunger. Nobody gets hungry 30 times a day. So instead of taking the trouble of figuring out what is actually wrong, such mothers just clump the kids’ mouths shut with food. Later in life, such people have no idea how to deal with any discomfort or unhappiness other than by eating.
LikeLike
Wouldn’t child just stop eating and continue crying at some point?
LikeLike
A baby’s main goal in life is to be cared for and protected. To achieve this goal, the baby does exactly what the caretaking adult wants. My sister never believed me when I used to tell her how a baby mirrors exactly what the caretaking adult wants. Then she had her own baby and saw it for herself. 🙂
If the mother wants to feed, the baby won’t be able to assert its will. It doesn’t have a will yet. For that, wait until the kid turns 3.
LikeLike
That does not conform to my experience with babies. They need to eat a lot more frequently than adults, and no, you can’t force them to eat if they’re not hungry. They’ll cry, bite, or just not latch on to the breast (or bottle).
LikeLike
“They’ll cry, bite, or just not latch on to the breast”
– If the motehr doesn;t really want to feed them and just goes through the motions out of obligation or whatever.
“They need to eat a lot more frequently than adults”
– Yes, but not 50 times a day. See my last comment.
Seriously, folks, enough with breastfeeding already. Does nobody see anything else in the post? What’s with the breastfeeding fixation?
LikeLike
Well, you DID just kind of throw down “the legacy of on-demand breastfeeding that results in poor impulse control and the incapacity to stop eating between mealtimes” without any kind of documentation, footnotes, etc.–what you say might be true (though I sincerely believe it is way way way way off base, despite not enough research in either direction to “prove” anything either way, to my knowledge–all I really have is a couple of skinny and active primary sources on the couch next to me who, unlike many children I know, are able to figure out when they are actually hungry vs. when it’s Time to eat or when they are bored. But I know that’s fairly un-generalizable as sources go), but you put it out there as if it’s obvious and a foregone conclusion that everyone with a brain agrees upon.
And not in all circles, by the way, is “on demand breastfeeding” just about shoving a boob into a kid’s mouth whenever it cries; there’s a whole continuum of ways to do it.
I’ll comment elsewhere on the rest of the post, but you sounded so surprised that people challenged you on the bf thing!
–J
LikeLike
“And not in all circles, by the way, is “on demand breastfeeding” just about shoving a boob into a kid’s mouth whenever it cries”
– As I explained several times already, I was referring exclusively to the school of thought that positions breastfeeding up to 50 times a day as positive and the only way to do it. I don’t understand how anything else can be called “on demand”, but if you say that other “on demand” approaches that are not really “on demand” exist, I believe you.
And completely unrelated to your own children, kids who are hugely skinny in childhood can acquire weight issues and become overweight in adulthood. I was super skinny until age 20, for example. Once again, I’m obviously not suggesting that anything like this awaits your children.
LikeLike
Oh totally, I know–I was one of them too, I could eat whatever I wanted and had NO food discipline at all, and then at age 18 my metabolism pulled a fast one. I’m sure it does await my children–which is why I’m trying to also teach them healthy habits, doubtless going too far in the other direction, and giving them their own set of food neuroses for which they will resent me when they are older…
Sigh. Damned if you do…
LikeLike
“I’m sure it does await my children–which is why I’m trying to also teach them healthy habits, doubtless going too far in the other direction, and giving them their own set of food neuroses for which they will resent me when they are older…”
– For some reason, I am very sure that your children will be perfectly fine.
LikeLike
To me too “On-demand breastfeeding” sounded jarring. As a newborn, I quietly ate at fixed times, my brother – when he wanted and began crying for food. None of us have any problems with food. I thought breastfeeding newborns, when they want it, is a good idea. Isn’t it what happens with other mammals too? Why are people suddenly out of nature?
I also read that there may be another direction too – a child is forced to eat at fixed times OR gets 0% sweets and then, as an adult, decided “now I can eat all I want at last”.
LikeLike
“I thought breastfeeding newborns, when they want it, is a good idea.”
– The problem is: how do you know that food is why they are crying of you don;t try anything else? I read a suggestion by a breastfeeding on demand guru recently that suggests that babies be fed up to 50 times a day if that’s what needed to keep them calm. Can anybody in their right mind doubt that nobody experiences actual hunger 50 times a day?
“I also read that there may be another direction too – a child is forced to eat at fixed times OR gets 0% sweets”
– Another bit of insanity. Both methods are extremes practiced by neurotics and aimed at raising neurotics. Between feeding kids 50 times a day and withholding food when they are hungry, there is an ocean of healthy behaviors by healthy people.
LikeLike
I sincerely hope this does not become yet another thread on breastfeeding. There are many less boring issues to discuss here, really.
LikeLike
I agree the Bloomberg’s proposed cap on soda sizes is pretty hilarious because of the ease of circumvention you mention above. And of course I also agree that this a cultural problem, and nothing the government can do will ever be as helpful as quality parenting and getting adults to think more carefully about their actions… but how do these sorts of cultural changes take place? I think it’s entirely appropriate for governments to help nudge these sort of social changes along, and it does so all the time via taxes (alcohol, cigarettes, etc.) and tax breaks (for getting married, having children, etc.). I just think the method here is very flawed.
I liked the junk-food tax idea- too bad lobbyists of the corn industry hold so much sway. What do you think of taxing unhealthy food, Clarissa? Is that worthwhile, or do you have better ideas for encouraging healthier food consumption in society?
LikeLike
“What do you think of taxing unhealthy food, Clarissa?”
– I think we will all get bogged down in an endless discussion of what constitutes unhealthy food. I still haven;t been able to figure out whether coffee is really as dangerous as everybody seems to say nowadays.
I think everything in a can and a box is unhealthy. But if every variety of canned and boxed food is taxed, most of the grocery stores in the Midwest will contain only heavily taxed items. 🙂
LikeLike
I think the idea is that it forces people to think about how much soda they’re drinking, which might cause some people to drink less. People also may feel self-conscious about getting more than one soda.
I’m guessing that you don’t think much of people altering their behavior based on what they believe others think, but I believe it will work like that for some people.
As for whether the government should get involved with soda sales to this degree, I would say “no” and I don’t think this will have a big impact on public health, but it will be interesting to see if I’m wrong.
LikeLike
“I’m guessing that you don’t think much of people altering their behavior based on what they believe others think, but I believe it will work like that for some people.”
– Let’s agree that the general feeling in this country is that being fat is shameful and is an attribute of lazy, stupid people? (Mind you, this is not my opinion. I’m just guessing thos from what I see on television).
fat-shaming exists and is very wide-spread, right? So tell me, how come all of those millions of hugely overweight people are not in any way influenced by all this shaming? I mean, macDonald’s and Coca Cola are thriving, aren’t they?
There is nothing more difficult than getting people to alter their behavior. They would guzzle tons of horribly dangerous diet pills, all to avoid altering their behavior.
LikeLike
“So tell me, how come all of those millions of hugely overweight people are not in any way influenced by all this shaming?”
There is a difference between being shamed about being fat in general and say, the more direct social pressure of a group of friends who are watching you get up to get soda after soda. Of course, if your group has decided that it doesn’t matter what they eat or drink or how much of it they consume it won’t matter so much, but I think a lot of people are somewhere in the middle on the concept of healthy eating.
The situation I had in mind is one where a person has publicly declared that they are going to start eating better but decides to indulge in a soda “just this once,” which is a type of situation I see all the time.
There is also the matter of how much personal effort it takes to get the extra soda, if you are getting your food to go or if a waiter is bringing it to you and that kind of thing.
LikeLike
“There is a difference between being shamed about being fat in general and say, the more direct social pressure of a group of friends who are watching you get up to get soda after soda.”
– A soda fanatic will hardly hang out on a regular basis with a group of health-obsessed folks. People band into groups based on common interests and lifestyles. Besides, people only go to buy soda with a group of friends in adolescence. I can’t imagine adults going anywhere with a gang of buddies instead of with their family.
LikeLike
Well, you know different adults than me. I know plenty of adults of all ages who go out all the time to places where sodas are served with friends and acquaintances they are not related to. The common interests that bring people together are not always related to food, and I see different eating habits clashing all the time at group gatherings.
Not everyone who drinks too much soda is a dedicated soda fanatic, and people make efforts to change unhealthy behaviors all the time.
LikeLike
Another cause of the obesity epidemic is automobile dependence. In many suburbs you end up with a maze of streets that completely divorces each end of a journey. In some cases, under the hierarchy of streets systems (lots of dead ends, cul-de-sacs etc) you’d have to walk 2km to get to something that, under a grid pattern, would be less than a quarter of the distance.
These endless cul-de-sacs, in combination with a lack of mixed residential-commercial development that condemns shops etc. only to places far from where people live. Since a hierarchy of streets can only support an extremely low population density. public transit is not very cost-effective. Both of these lead to automobile dependency. A grid pattern allows people to walk more, and thus would reduce obesity simply because people are more active. It’s also cheaper to maintain the roads in a grid pattern, which saves tax money.
One difficulty with the above is the large number of suburbs with hierarchies of streets already. So the above would be something to do going forward. In the interim, a carbon tax to make it more expensive to drive would help accomplish the same thing (as well as fighting global warming), and when suburbs are empty they can be replaced with grid patterns and mixed-use development.
In addition, a “sugar” or “fat tax” on empty calories (which includes soda) would make those proportionately more expensive, encouraging everyone to consume less. Part of the problem is that food that is bad for you (like empty calories) is cheaper than food that is bad for you. There is a disconnect between what is a good financial decision and what is a good health decision.
LikeLike
I agree completely that the driving-dependent culture is extremely prejudicial to people’s health. I have written numerous posts about this issue and have caused a lot of annoyance by them. 🙂
It would be great of somebody did something to promote public transportation and the creation of sidewalks and walking spaces. However, I have no idea what needs to be done to get people out of the cars. I see my neighbors every day drive to the convenience store that we can practically see out of our windows. It takes less than 3 minutes to go there. Still, my very young neighbors get into extremely stuffy and hot cars that have been standing outside in the heat to drive to that convenience store.
In my neighborhood, you see couples walking outside in the evening. Every one of the couples who goes for daily walks is from another country. (I know these people, they work for my university.) I’ve seen one couple that looked American out for a walk in the past 3 years. One. The rest of the walkers are all from somewhere else.
LikeLike
That’s ridiculous. When I was a kid we had cars. We’ve used automobiles to get about for over 100 years. We’ve also lived in suburbs since the end of World War 2. People have only been getting really fat since the mid-80s. When my mother and I went to Europe in 1981 the one thing we heard everywhere was “American women are too thin.” That was the reputation we used to have in the world.
Then something changed. One thing was people started eating out more as kids grew up and got good jobs in the prosperous 80s. Restaurant chains got really big. Fast food chains proliferated. People started eating more period as food got cheaper. Restaurant portions got bigger and bigger as well. Also, food additives have played a part — things like corn syrup and other corn derivatives started getting added to food. They feed corn to pigs to fatten them up. I know what conclusion that leads me to.
One more thing: good, fresh food is not expensive. It’s just as Clarissa says: most people eat how they were brought up. If they were brought up on macaroni and cheese and deep fried food, that’s what they’re going to want. I am fortunate that I had parents and grandparents who made sure I got a lot of vegetables and didn’t eat a lot of sweets and junk food. And they weren’t much into deep frying anything; my parents preferred to grill whenever possible, and my grandmother preferred baking, boiling, and stewing. I live in an agricultural area surrounded by farms that have farmer’s markets just about every day and there are always fresh vegetables available in the grocery stores, but there are a lot of obese people here, and I mean spectacularly obese, people who have no necks and whose ankles are so fat they overflow their shoes. The traditional Virginia diet includes a lot of deep fried things, and macaroni and cheese is a common side dish. I’ve been behind very large people in grocery stores and their carts are always piled high with pies and cakes and bread and prepared food in boxes. Fresh vegetables are not more expensive than pies and prepared food in boxes.
LikeLike
“One thing was people started eating out more as kids grew up and got good jobs in the prosperous 80s. Restaurant chains got really big. Fast food chains proliferated. People started eating more period as food got cheaper. Restaurant portions got bigger and bigger as well. Also, food additives have played a part — things like corn syrup and other corn derivatives started getting added to food. They feed corn to pigs to fatten them up. I know what conclusion that leads me to.”
– As I mentioned before, I always gain weight immediately after I move to the US and lose it also immediately after I move back to Canada. I’ve moved there and back many times, so I had many chances to notice the dependence.
I don’t eat at fast food places, I don’t drive, I cook everything from scratch and eat tons of fresh fruits and vegetables. I spend a fortune on fresh produce in winter because I’m addicted to it. I only buy fresh meats and seafood. And I walk several miles every day. And I dislike sweets and desserts. Yet in the US, I blow up like a balloon. Every single time. Can anybody explain this to me? The only explanation I have is that something is wrong with the food in this country.
My sister has the exact same experiences.
LikeLike
I’m used to living in a state where you can get fresh produce relatively cheaply year ’round. (That would be Florida.) I’ve been in Virginia three years now, and I am still amazed when the farmer’s markets close down for the winter. We still get fresh produce in, of course, but it’s from other countries.
But don’t mention the mangoes. Oh, you can buy mangoes here. But they’re shipped in from Guatemala and are of course underripe. I bought one once and it was hard as a rock. Mango season in Miami was something else. The first week, everyone with a mango tree puts signs in front of their yards: “Mangoes for sale, $5.00 per bag.” The second week: “Mangoes for sale, $1.00 per bag.” The third week: “Free mangoes — just take! Please God, please get these mangoes out of our yard!”
I may have exaggerated that one last line. I hated Miami growing up, but I’ll grant it one thing: we had an abundance of tropical fruit that everyone else would kill for.
Re the gaining weight when you come to the US. Oddly enough, Europe was where I gained weight back in 1981, then lost it when I came home. But after that, something change. I’m almost sure they’re putting something in the water.
LikeLike
Oh, the underripe mangos, I hate them. It’s next to impossible to buy a good mango here in Southern Illinois. They are all so hard that you can drive nails with them.
LikeLike
Overeating is caused by emotional problems (e.g. people who eat whenever they are stressed out, bored, upset, etc.), the legacy of on-demand breastfeeding that results in poor impulse control and the incapacity to stop eating between mealtimes, the need to self-medicate with food, etc. An eating culture is what we learn at home, with our families, as we grow up. If we see our parents practice unhealthy eating habits (eating on the run or standing up, eating massive amounts of junk food, frying everything and never eating fresh produce, etc.), there is no chance any governmental measures will break than pattern.
I am skeptical about this. Low fat diets, MSG, and certain carbohydrates (notably concentrated fructose, IIRC) take away a person’s ability to feel when he or she has had enough to eat.
LikeLike
Have you never met people who self-medicate with food?
LikeLike
Some seem to do so, but I think the physiological is more important than the psychological in this case.
LikeLike
You know that I don;t believe in physiology that is unconnected to the psychology.
LikeLike
Connected, yes, I agree; but either physiology or psychology can be the prime mover in the process. Sometimes physiology influences psychology; sometimes psychology influences physiology.
LikeLike
Our nation has an over consumption problem and I don’t think that regulating certain foods tagged as unhealthy this particular way is going to be very effective. I think we need to team together and relearn how to eat completely. We need to get rid of or at least significantly reduce all this convenience eating and learn what actually provides the best nutritional value.
LikeLike
I agree.
LikeLike
Capitalism’s driving force is consumption. The less you consume the less that goes into the free market. This culture indirectly or directly needs people to be unhealthy as unhealthy people consume more. The 2 main purchases most people will consume are stimulants and painkillers. One to pump you up, the other, to shut you up. I watch this process daily in my healthcare clinic.
LikeLike
“The 2 main purchases most people will consume are stimulants and painkillers. One to pump you up, the other, to shut you up”
– Yes, as tragic as that it, I’m sure you are right. 😦 😦
LikeLike
If the government really wanted to combat obesity, they’d put sidewalks in every neighborhood and bikelanes on every street. They’d give employers a mandate to provided 10 minute walking breaks 4 times a day if the employee has a job where they sit, or 10 minute sitting breaks 4 times a day if they are constantly on their feet.
Maybe even offer tax incentives if you ride your bike to work at least one day a week (not sure how you’d prove that, though!). I live five miles from work, but there’s no way I can get there on a bike safely, and it takes at least 1.5 hours by bus. There are few sidewalks between here and there and at several points walking would involve walking directly on the roadway where the cars are and walking through ditches.
It’s not going to work to limit food or drinks. Some people need a lot of empty calories just to keep from being underweight (which is more dangerous than being obese).
LikeLike
I agree with everything you say! I’d be superhappy to walk to work and back. It’s just 5 miles, which is nothing to me. But there is no way to walk there safely. It’s a huge struggle to find places to walk around here because there are no sidewalks!
LikeLike
I am not riding a bicycle where I live. It’s all hills here, and in the summer the heat and humidity are at kill levels. But even so, it’s all hills here, and I’m beyond the age where I can tackle them via a machine I have to pedal. I do walk everywhere, because Staunton’s a small old town with a nice, walkable downtown area (and it’s easier, because the streets are narrow and hilly and it’s mostly only street parking). But I have to drive 25 miles to my job one way six days a week. Public transportation is not practical for this area — farmland and pastures, very hilly, with towns scattered about. We do have a public transportation for all of that, but it won’t work for me: my job is at night five days a week, and the sixth day starts before dawn. I’d love to walk to work, but this is the job I was able to find in this economy. I needed a paycheck and I could not afford to sit around waiting for the perfect job.
For the record, when I lived in Orlando I had no car for four years and had to use the public transportation there. It was a decent bus system but the city and surrounding area had grown and was still growing too fast for it to catch up. It took me hours to get anywhere, and the way neighborhood were set up it wasn’t easy living near where I worked. (For a while, though, I did live within a block and a half’s walk to my job. It was glorious, but then they picked up and moved to a fancy building miles away and I was back on the bus.) I basically had to set aside entire days just for one thing, like groceries, and as for doing anything useful on workdays, forget it.
Before that, I lived in Miami, which also is a huge city that has a lot of public transportation that still is inadequate to the public’s need because it fucking is. This is just the way most of the United States is set up: we are a huge country of huge, sprawled out cities. We can’t all find jobs right next to our homes. It gets very hot in the summer in most of the lower 48, which means waiting outdoors for a bus or train can become agony. This is not Europe, in climate or in infrastructure. We don’t have compact towns with neighborhoods that are set up for pedestrians. A lot of the problem is we went for the automobile life in a big way, which means huge malls miles from places where people live are still the normal setup for most of the country. Cities like New York and San Francisco are anomalies; more of our cities are like Houston and Greater Orlando — they go on for miles, and neighborhoods where people live don’t have shops and grocery stores because of the fantasy of suburban, tree-lined streets full of playing children, not trucks delivering produce and gadgets to shops.
And so on. Look. I love trains. I hate flying. I’d love it if I didn’t have to drive so much for day-to-day activities. But to get the country to look like what the public transportation and bike fanatics want it to look like would necessitate us tearing down everything and moving people forcibly around. It’s not going to happen.
Oh — and I agree that people here are lazy and don’t walk enough and yadda yadda. I’m not that way. The idea of getting into a hot car just to drive to the end of the street is bizarre to me. I need my car for all the longer distance trips I have to make. But that’s just me. I can’t tell other people what to do.
LikeLike
“I’d love it if I didn’t have to drive so much for day-to-day activities. But to get the country to look like what the public transportation and bike fanatics want it to look like would necessitate us tearing down everything and moving people forcibly around. It’s not going to happen.”
– Or let the immigrants in and they will build up the empty spaces. There are huge empty spaces between my house and the university, yet not a single Indian restaurant for miles and miles around.
We actually have a great public transportation system here but when I tell my students that “my car broke down” is not a good excuse to miss the final exam because they could always take the bus, they get very huffy. Maybe they think it’s beneath them to take a bus, I don’t know.
LikeLike
Your student wasn’t looking for a solution. They basically used the broken car to justify staying home and faffing around. Not that I’ve ever done anything like that. (Or if I did, I had sense enough not to just get huffy when someone told me I could have taken the bus. I always had a good explanation. I was the queen of the bullsh— that is, good explanation.)
Re the empty spaces around you: check who owns the land, your community’s zoning laws, environmental regs, etc. It’s not simply a matter of “filling up empty spaces.” (Also, this country has a fecking lot of empty space. Quite a lot of the unused land in the US is owned by the government, and they won’t part with it, and they won’t do a damn thing with it.)
LikeLike
Why is the government just sitting on that land??
LikeLike
I think the reason boils down to “because they can.” However, apparently Obama tried to put a bill through that would get some of that stuff back in use. I wonder how that went.
LikeLike
Looks like they’re selling some of it, a little bit at a time. Faster please.
LikeLike
OK, that’s good news, at least.
LikeLike
Spoken like a true libertarian. 🙂
Now if only you were willing to apply the same logic with birth control and discrimination. :p
LikeLike
What was it about birth control and discrimination, I forget?
I defended the right of employers not to cover birth control if that’s against their religion. I think that’s Libertarian enough, eh? 🙂
LikeLike
Good to hear that you are willing to defend the Catholic Church’s right not to cover birth control for their works. Now we have a photographer being fined $7,000 for refusing to do a lesbian wedding. How willing are you to defend the rights of everyone not to be physically coerced?
LikeLike
The Catholic Church was not physically coerced. But it was still coerced, which doesn’t make it much better.
“Now we have a photographer being fined $7,000 for refusing to do a lesbian wedding.”
– Are you serious? There has got to be more to the story.
LikeLike
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/conservatives-incensed-court-ruling-anti-gay-discrimination
LikeLike
What confuses me is why this is being discussed in terms of religious freedom? Doesn’t a person have a right to provide labor and services only when s/he chooses? I mean, I refuse to provide my services as a translator all of the time. Recently, I discriminated against a potential customer on the basis of their nationality. Isn’t that my right?? Since when can people be forced to provide labor against their will?
LikeLike
My thoughts exactly. I see this as a far graver violation of rights than the government not recognizing same sex marriage. It is issues like these that serve to create the universe in which I live, one in which the real threat to liberty is from the left.
LikeLike
“My thoughts exactly. I see this as a far graver violation of rights than the government not recognizing same sex marriage. It is issues like these that serve to create the universe in which I live, one in which the real threat to liberty is from the left.”
– I have no idea how that conclusion has been reached. How did Bush Jr. protect your liberty with his Patriot Act? You’ve got to agree that it was a major violation of the most central rights we have in this country. Talk about an actual governmental gun to the head! Compared to that, this tiny little lawsuit is really nothing.
LikeLike
No I do not approve of the patriot act. Losing patience with the republican party over things like that is one of the reasons why I am no longer a republican. That being said I see the patriot act as less an act of coercion in of itself as setting the stage for coercion. The goverment can make any rule it likes for a public library as they are part of the goverment. Spying on people is also not coercion. I would fight the war on terror through private enterprise. I support making all libraries private and letting the new owners try to “catch terrorists” if they wish. (Library patrons are also free not to use a library that reports on their reading habits.) People should be able to spy on their neighbors to their hearts content as long as they do not violate their property. If phone companies want to put in wire taps that is between them and their customers.
LikeLike
” I support making all libraries private and letting the new owners try to “catch terrorists” if they wish. ”
– That means there will be no libraries at all. A library cannot exist unless it is heavily subsidized. It is one of the most economically unviable enterprises anybody can imagine. It’s interesting to see a historian who prefers to see all libraries destroyed rather than to approach the governmental officials as what they are – his employees – and get them to respect his rights.
“Spying on people is also not coercion. ”
– What about the warrantless searches that people were not even aware of? That’s governmental intrusion into the home. Only the Conservatives support intruding people’s homes in their absence and people’s bodies against their will. Overregulating the relationships between consumers and service providers does not even begin to rise to this level.
LikeLike
I do not assume that libraries would disappear. People like me would just have to pay for them. If you wish to subsidize my reading habit I would be very greatful. :p
If the government works for me then why can’t I fire it already?
The government spying on me would only be coercion if they actually entered my property without my permission or did something that causes me physical harm such as exposing me to radiation. So if the goverment taps my phone without entering my house I have no more cause to complain then if they took pictures of me from across the street. (No I do not want them doing that either.) Granted I assume that the only reason why the government would do this is because they intend physical harm so it needs to be stopped.
LikeLike
“I do not assume that libraries would disappear. People like me would just have to pay for them.”
– Why would you do that? If you have money, then it’s easier simply to buy the books. Libraries serve people who don’t have money to buy.
“If you wish to subsidize my reading habit I would be very greatful. :p”
– I already do. I pay taxes. 🙂
“If the government works for me then why can’t I fire it already?”
– Of course, you can. 🙂 It’s called voting. 🙂
“The government spying on me would only be coercion if they actually entered my property without my permission”
– That’s exactly what the PA allows.
LikeLike
I often check books out as it is cheaper than buying them. It would even make sense for me to put up say $100 a year to use a library as I would borrow more than a $100 in books. Voting is not the same thing as firing. If it were Democrats in Wisconsin should have been able to “fire” Walker as their governor while Republicans could still keep him. We don’t make people vote on one soda for an entire state. Why should people be tied to one government?
LikeLike
The agriculture policy in the U.S. makes junk food artificially cheap. The government takes tax dollars to subsidize corn and soybeans; processed food makers use the cheap corn to make chips and corn syrup; and then they can sell junk at government-subsidized lower prices. Cut these subsidies or subsidize foods that are sold to consumers without processing, and prices will push people to change what they it.
I pretty much gave up junk food when I lived in Germany because it cost twice as much as it does here and was so expensive compared to healthy food.
LikeLike
I agree wholeheartedly with the idea to cut these subsidies!
Corn syrup is the enemy of humanity.
LikeLike
Corn syrup is the enemy of humanity.(Clarissa)
Mexicans are no longer “the people of the corn”, that title now belongs to the Americans and they probably think its better than sliced bread. 😉
LikeLike
I don’t know, Titfortat, I eat a lot of sandwiches.
LikeLike
But Pen, you do know your bread is made from corn. 🙂
LikeLike
…I thought it was made of wheat?
LikeLike
A lot of the corn Americans eat is hidden. I mean, I love fresh corn, but that’s not what the problem is.
LikeLike
No, I love fresh corn too. It’s the nasty syrup.
LikeLike
After reading a book called “The omnivores dilemma” I got a better appreciation of how corn is intrinsically linked to our entire food industry. Both fascinating and depressing. 😦
LikeLike
People keep recommending it ot me but I’m afraid that it will depress me. It isn’t like anything can do much about changing what one eats radically in the Midwest.
LikeLike
I was going to put up a new reply, saying something like “What should the government do to fight obesity? Stop passing stupid bans and cut the stupid subsidies that artificially lower the price of crap.” But you pretty much nailed it here.
Everyone’s seen this infographic (http://www.pcrm.org/good-medicine/2007/autumn/health-vs-pork-congress-debates-the-farm-bill) showing the disparity between what the UDSA tells us we should eat and what the government subsidizes, right?
Clarissa, depressing or not, I highly recommend The Omnivore’s Dilemma. Intelligent, clear, and honestly it’s the one thing that actually motivated me to make some changes in how I eat rather than just being pissed off. Kind of a “knowledge is power” thing.
My kids hate it, though, because since reading it I haven’t once let them get Chicken McNuggets.
LikeLike
“My kids hate it, though, because since reading it I haven’t once let them get Chicken McNuggets.”
– OK, if it is so highly recommended, I’ll check it out! I wouldn’t touch these scary McNugget things anyway, though. They are a form of food that has always terrified me. 🙂
LikeLike
Actually it is a great read. I think you will appreciate the authors candour. Be brave and go for it. 🙂
LikeLike
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mielie-meal
LikeLike
GMO food and hormonally-tainted meat/dairy products are probably part of the problem (along with preservatives).
The US food supply is absolute crap nowadays. Monsanto and Con Agra have a monopoly on American agriculture and Americans are getting sicker, fatter and stupider.
LikeLike