People are not getting what I mean about the difficulties I see in raising boys, it seems. So here is an example.
In order to have a fantastic personal life, a girl needs to grow up surrounded by the adoring gaze of her father. That’s it, this is the recipe. Adoring father = adoring partners her entire life, and crowds of them.
However, does a boy who grows up surrounded by the adoring gaze of his mother have a happy personal life? No! It’s just the opposite! I’ve seen it too many times. Adoring mother = incapacity to form a profound relationship with an adult partner.
Clarissa's Blog 
No. SMOTHERING mother means an incapacity. Most ‘adoring’ mothers insist on infantilizing their sons beyond all recognition.
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“Most ‘adoring’ mothers insist on infantilizing their sons beyond all recognition.’
– That’s precisely my problem. I tend to be domineering as it is, so now I need to learn to turn that down quite a lot.
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“I tend to be domineering”
Wow…. let me put on my shockface.
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I think it is worthy of shock that I admit it so freely. 🙂 Most people find it harder to admit their own problematic qualities.
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“I tend to be domineering as it is, so now I need to learn to turn that down quite a lot.”
Were you domineering towards your sister when you raised her? If not, then you already know how to turn it down a notch 🙂
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“Were you domineering towards your sister when you raised her?”
– Let’s ask her. 🙂 I’m afraid the answer is “very much so.” However, here is the difference: the daughter of a domineering mother grows up to be a domineering woman. A business leader, a college professor, an army general, a surgeon. What’s so bad about that?
But the son of a domineering mother is the same as the daughter of a domineering father: a person with a broken social and professional backbone. Has problems with staying employed, making money, holding a social position, etc. That sounds kind of really bad.
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“adoring gaze of her father”
Um… um… ew.
I mean, I got along fine with my dad, he liked me and I liked him, but “adoring”? Maybe we’re using different definitions of the word. To me “adore” implies a level of unhealthy obsession and near-worship.
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“I mean, I got along fine with my dad, he liked me and I liked him, but “adoring”? Maybe we’re using different definitions of the word. To me “adore” implies a level of unhealthy obsession and near-worship.”
– Not near-worship. Actual, unadulterated worship results in a grown woman who feels beautiful no matter how she looks and how much she weighs and who has crowds of admirers who worship her. That’s just how it works. 🙂
Why is everybody so surprised? Is this news to people? 🙂
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“In order to have a fantastic personal life, a girl needs to grow up surrounded by the adoring gaze of her father. That’s it, this is the recipe. Adoring father = adoring partners her entire life, and crowds of them.”
??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!! I want to believe you are kidding all your readers and waiting to see what they write about it, right?
“However, does a boy who grows up surrounded by the adoring gaze of his mother have a happy personal life? No! It’s just the opposite! I’ve seen it too many times. Adoring mother = incapacity to form a profound relationship with an adult partner.
This is like saying I know a man that was idolized by his mother, and he went blind, therefore all men who had an adoring mother must be blind.”
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““In order to have a fantastic personal life, a girl needs to grow up surrounded by the adoring gaze of her father. That’s it, this is the recipe. Adoring father = adoring partners her entire life, and crowds of them.”
??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!! I want to believe you are kidding all your readers and waiting to see what they write about it, right?”
– No, it’s the truth. Why are you surprised?
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Because you are leaving out one crucial element in the equation. A father is as necessary as a mother in every child. If you have seen more cases in which girls have grown up to have healthy relationships as adults having fathers that cared is not because “they have adoring fathers”, it was probably because the others either had assholes as fathers, or due to the male oriented societies in which we live, the father “should be working, or with his friends, and not involved in motherly matters” (irony mode). Many of those “adoring fathers” probably were accompanied by “adoring mothers” too, maybe it was more striking to see the former.
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“A father is as necessary as a mother in every child.”
– Of course, but in different ways.
“due to the male oriented societies in which we live, the father “should be working, or with his friends, and not involved in motherly matters” (irony mode). Many of those “adoring fathers” probably were accompanied by “adoring mothers” too, maybe it was more striking to see the former.”
– The thing is, I come from a family scenario where it was always (for generations) the other way round. When I was growing up, I barely knew who my mother was, she had to work so much. And it was like that for absolutely everybody else. We had 100% female employment. So my father was there a whole lot instead. For me, as a result, it is nothing new to see involved, adoring fathers. Even today, I called and shared the news with my father because my mother was out with friends, as always. 🙂 🙂
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That’s really interesting! In Spain, and I believe here too having a working mother 40 years ago would have been the exception!
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Yes, we all had 100% employed great-grandmothers and grandmothers, too. Obviously, this had a very profound influence on all of us. This is why I don’t understand the experiences of many Western women. I grew up in an environment where the word of the mother was law.
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“Adoring mother = incapacity to form a profound relationship with an adult partner.”
Maybe because what you’re seeing in those unhealthy cases isn’t actually real, unconditional adoration. It’s usually the mother treating her son as a surrogate husband, the man who’ll never leave her or disappoint her, will always be her personal champion, and will never be good for any other woman aside from her, so long as she smothers him with affection and dotes on him endlessly so that he’ll forever stay her child-husband…
The friend I was describing in the previous post (the awesome nerdy guy) has a mother who adores him and is openly proud of who he is and what he’s doing with his life. But she’s never smothered him or hovered over him. She’s never antagonized his girlfriends or been jealous and possessive of him, demanding his attention exclusively. And so he has great relationships both with the women he dates and with her. Win-win. (She also has a good relationship with her husband, which is a contributing factor to not looking at her son as the ‘one man in her life’).
If the adoration is unconditional, it’s not problematic. Father-daughter adoration can also be problematic if there are strings attached (hidden traps) or there’s an unhealthy possessiveness. You most likely didn’t experience that, so your dad’s adoration helped you thrive.
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“Maybe because what you’re seeing in those unhealthy cases isn’t actually real, unconditional adoration. It’s usually the mother treating her son as a surrogate husband, the man who’ll never leave her or disappoint her, will always be her personal champion, and will never be good for any other woman aside from her, so long as she smothers him with affection and dotes on him endlessly so that he’ll forever stay her child-husband…”
– Yes, definitely. OK, that helps. Now I need to see a positive model.
” Father-daughter adoration can also be problematic if there are strings attached (hidden traps) or there’s an unhealthy possessiveness. You most likely didn’t experience that, so your dad’s adoration helped you thrive.”
– Well, actually, there was a lot of that, too.
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“However, here is the difference: the daughter of a domineering mother grows up to be a domineering woman.”
Not always, not always. I know daughters of domineering mothers who are broken and weak. Their mothers took over their lives from the start, and rode roughshod over them. They haven’t thrived professionally or personally.
This may be because in those cases the mother’s domineering nature had little warmth in it and was coupled with great insensitivity. Plus, their daughters might have had more sensitive temperaments that didn’t respond well to that kind of mothering.
It’s unhelpful to look at any of these traits in isolation and make rules based on them.
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My general advice… (based more on observation than my personal preferences all the time).
At the risk of being accused of gender essentialism etc IME there are definite differences in average behaviors and average motivations by sex (yes there are lots of individual counter-examples for everything following, I’m talking about very general trends, if your kid is a counter-example you modify your behavior toward him, no big deal.)
Now on to the advice….
While women like being adored, men, given the choice, prefer to be admired.
Unconditional love is great, unconditional approval not so much. You love him no matter what, you don’t love every single thing he does and expect him to put wrong things right himself (but don’t nag and/or micromanage).
I think the mother-son relationship needs definite boundaries. One possible good tactic is to provide maternal comfort freely when asked for but don’t be slopping over with it when it’s not asked for. Give him space (that should be easy) and give positive reinforcement for independent actions.
Don’t overestimate the importance of popularity for boys, a few good reliable friends are _far_ more important than adoring crowds.
More as I think of it.
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OK, this is what I was looking for. Thank you. This really helps in a very practical way. I can definitely reorient myself toward admiration and away from adoration.
You see, it does take a blogging village. 🙂 🙂
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Gender pop psych is even worse than evo psych…
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Very true.
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Evidence suggests that a mother who adores her first born son, especially if she does not respect the father, generates extreme narcissism, sometimes coupled with homosexual tendencies in that boy. My general advice irrespective of sex of the child, is to stand back and allow the child to learn and grow, imposing disciplinary boundaries. Always, always enforce those boundaries. Otherwise the child will grow weed-like without respect for the boundarieas of others.
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Structure, discipline and Love. Not necessarily in that order. 🙂
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I don’t think the “adoring gaze” of Bill Clito…errr Clinton is a good thing.
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The father’s “adoring gaze” in action: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/serbia/5506804/Jelena-Dokics-father-sentenced-to-15-months-in-jail-over-Australian-ambassador-death-threat.html
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or this: http://www.childhelp.org/pages/texas-judge-beats-daughter-on-video
(even though the mother was an accomplice in this case, for obvious sexual reasons)
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@David
Do you have any kids?
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No, and I don’t think I’ll have one, unless adoption. I want children to live well et accomplish themselves in their way, not necessarily (I would not teach to be or to not be popular) by becoming populaRRRRRR and not necessarily by “acting like a gender”.
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No, and I don’t think I’ll have one, unless adoption. I want children to live well and accomplish themselves in their way, not necessarily (I would not teach to be or to not be popular) by becoming populaRRRRRR and not necessarily by “acting like a gender”.
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I’d like to have had a few deliberate inconsistencies in my education, things that had allowed me more quickly to break from my parents and grow as an individual. Stuff like having a Santa Claus only to learn that it isn’t one later.
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As long as we’re talking about smothering mothers, have you ever heard of the children’s book Love You Forever by Robert Munsch? It’s about a mother who sneaks into her son’s room during the night and cradles him in her arms, even when he is an adult who has moved out of the house. Freud would have had a field day with that one . . .
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The culture I come from is so centred on obsessive, cannibalizing mothers that this example is child’s play compared to things I have observed in real life. For instance, a decade-long battle between a mother and a wife about which one of them would change the grown man’s underwear. The man was in no way disabled by the way. Or a mother who went everywhere holding hands with her son long after he turned 40.
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Even though I’ve heard many stories like this on this blog, I still manage to be shocked sometimes.
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Yes, I know, I’m like a walking collection of these stories. 🙂
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I think there are more variables than parental relations in terms of accounting for career success or otherwise. I think we overestimate the degree to which we can spy out and accurately label the correct determinants. The 20th century ideal, as the culmination of the Enlightenment, was for everything to be predictably orderly. A standardized person would be able to be measured in relation to standardized models for development. The thing is, we never attained that hothouse flower fantasy, where we were able to regulate all inputs and measure all outputs for everyone. It’s very lucky that we missed that mark and continue to miss it.
A boy or a girl may react to certain aspects in the parent’s character, which attract or repel. If the parent is well-balanced and their own person, that is very helpful. If not, that will probably create a bog for the child — a kind of quicksand.
On the other hand, various experiences in life can work to suddenly extricate the child from certain types of quicksand. Some can suddenly develop growth. It all depends on what aspects have been missing from the past experiences and what they child needs to put himself together.
in all, we create ourselves out of the raw materials around us. Some of these materials will be of high quality and others not so much so. Children are very innovative if left to their own devices. They figure things out and do what they can with what’s available.
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Obviously, I can’t control other variables. But I can take responsibility for what I do. Ive seen people who guide themselves with “common sense” and “instinct “, whatever that even means. I also have seen people who insist that by virtue of being mothers they know what’s best. The tragic existence of their children is painful to watch. The cannibalizing mommies, however, are happy as clams.
I know a woman whose 30 yo son has no personal or social life and never had any. He lives with his Mommy who also has no personal life. She says she is an ideal mother. And the reasons for her son’s solitude? Oh, these are variables that have nothing to do with her. She did all she could for his happiness but things just turned out this way. It’s a complete coincidence that she is super comfortable at the son’s expense.
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These days, people’s instincts are very screwed up. I firmly believe that instincts are conditioned by culture, experience and some other stuff. People should probably listen to their instincts and then do the opposite of whatever they counsel.
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I have two boys when what I really wanted was two girls. Like you, I felt like I knew how to raise girls since I helped raise my sister, who is 10 years younger than me. However, I have to say that when you are the parent (not the sibling), it is a totally different experience. Nothing really prepares you for parenthood, no matter what the sex of your child is.
That said, I am very happy with my two boys. They are very imaginative and active and sweet and funny. I think that you’ll love the kid no matter what. I’ve determined that I need to raise two boys who will be excellent feminists. 🙂
Also — when I found out I was having a boy, my very first words to everyone in the room were, “I’m NOT circumcising my child, so forget it, okay?” There was no need to be hostile, but I couldn’t bear the thought of putting my child through any sort of pain immediately upon arriving in the world.
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Just don’t try to stop him from doing things that you think are daring and dangerous. I know mothers who will not let their sons climb trees at all, for example.
[My mother (who is in her 90’s now) told me recently that she was afraid she had not impressed strongly enough on her sons that they must keep their hands to themselves when they were out with a girl (emphasis hers.) She emphasized this, saying, “Girls do not appreciate when a boy is always trying to touch them, on a date.” I suspect this will not be your error.]
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“Just don’t try to stop him from doing things that you think are daring and dangerous. I know mothers who will not let their sons climb trees at all, for example.”
– Yes. Yes, you are absolutely right. With my niece I had to stop myself every time I got the impulse to smooth down her hair. This will be a battle with myself. But on the positive side, it will promote my personal growth.
“My mother (who is in her 90’s now) told me recently that she was afraid she had not impressed strongly enough on her sons that they must keep their hands to themselves when they were out with a girl (emphasis hers.) She emphasized this, saying, “Girls do not appreciate when a boy is always trying to touch them, on a date.” I suspect this will not be your error.”
– Yes, I’m planning to avoid this kind of thing. 🙂 🙂
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My husband is the first born son, and his mother is quite adoring… and he turned out awesome! The only thing she didn’t really teach him was how to cook, and my mom didn’t teach me how to cook either, but I learned since I’ve always had less disposable money than he, and wouldn’t have been able to subsist on restaurants and overpriced dining halls the way he was. He is very smart, very handsome, was very tidy before living with me killed that (i’m such a slob he mostly gave up on that part), confident bordering on arrogant, kind, loves small animals, enjoys reading and video games, great at actual conversation… and has grown up with an adoring mother. AND an adoring grandmother. But also a warm, open father, and adoring grandfather. His mom and grandma still adore him, and his mom and I get along very well, surprisingly enough, and she now adores me too. It makes for a very nice life– we see his folks, grandparents, and younger brother nearly every Sunday for dinner, and it has helped me a lot to have this family here, and he loves being close to family too. So don’t worry too much about being adoring– just don’t smother him! Let him play in mud and get hurt, give him chores and expectations but not too many, and let him know you love him with words.
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