In fact, my life has been a litany of missed and misunderstood romantic looks. There was the New Year’s Eve party in which repeated, prolonged glances from a woman only made me exasperatedly respond “What?!” There was the time I dropped off a coworker at 5AM and, when she cocked her head and asked me if I wanted to come in, I obliviously said “No, it’s late, I’m gonna’ go home and sleep.” I’ve even had a woman analyze my hopelessness at the end of an evening: “yeah, there were a couple of times that were perfect for you to kiss me… but you didn’t.”
It’s as if I were absent the day everyone else got their Romantic Moments 101 Handbook. Once during grad school, we had our last class at the professor’s house. There, over beer and talk of the sublime, I kept glancing at another student, who kept meeting my gaze in return and smiling. When class was done, we said farewell on the street and—while she stood next to her boyfriend, mind you—she looked intensely at me, with an expression you might describe as…. pleading? Apparently I was supposed to do or say something so that we could… what? Meet later so she could cheat on her boyfriend? I have precisely no idea.
OK, just to help a person out amongst all this television-induced confusion: all of these “meaningful looks” are nothing but a fantasy. Women are not ciphers in need of analysis. Women can and do transmit their sexual desires just as well as men can and do. And please, save me the sermon about societal conventions. I have seen a woman from a rabidly conservative, virginity-obsessed family sit for 6 hours outside a man’s apartment in biting cold because she wanted him so much. I’ve seen a fundamentalist Christian woman drop everything and hop on a plane that would take her across the country to spend the night with her ex. I’ve seen a timid housewife dump her husband, drop 60 pounds, transform her entire life, and start hunting a guy with the single-minded determination of a drone.
So if you feel like you need to analyze glances and figure out clues, I have a very simple explanation for you: She’s just not that into you. And when she is, no guessing and wondering will be needed.
I’m taking the time to respond to this rambling and strange post for one simple reason. The post is based on a very serious misconception that many men – even good, normal men – seem to share. The misconception is that women transmit their feelings and desires indirectly and that in order to get laid men need to decipher women’s intentions. And this way of thinking is a road straight to Rapist Land.
The post ends with the following words:
And I guess that’s why Don Draper is the perfect anti-hero. You can tell he’s an awful person, but you’re still jealous of his prowess. He would have known what those looks meant, would have known the next move to make—and he would have done it, too.
I have no idea who this Don Draper is but I have a suggestion for the post’s author. And I’m a real person, by the way, not a cartoon character, so maybe what I say is a little more real.
The next time you wonder about “the next move to make”, stop and maybe let the woman make the move first. Being desired and being shown that you are desired is a very good, pleasant feeling.
Of course, the common excuse that I hear from men who can’t wrap their heads around the idea of relaxing and letting women show desire for them is that “This way I will never get any sex.” This idea is completely wrong and misguided and I sincerely wish these guys got out more and watched less TV. I’m a woman who is not interested in any sex that is not initiated by me. That’s my sexual scenario, that’s who I am. And my greatest problem was finding men who would give me time and space to exhibit my sexual interest. By time and space I don’t mean days. I don’t even mean hours. OK, I barely even mean minutes. I would always see men who would begin to beg and push and cajole and whine for sex immediately. They would even do it when it was obvious that this went completely against their own sexual scenario, that they suffered and hated doing it, and that they were not prepared for any actual sex.
And then there was a sad group of men who were so brain-washed by TV shows and magazines that they would break down almost in tears and ask, “Please, just tell me already what your game is. Why are you saying all these things about me being beautiful and desirable? Just tell me what you want already because this is so confusing that I’m going out of my mind.”
So my suggestion is: men, relax. Breathe in deep. You are absolutely not missing any opportunities by not deciphering something correctly or not begging often enough. To the contrary, when you remember that you deserve to be desired and shown that you are desired clearly and honestly, you open up for yourself many opportunities for honest communication and great sex.
And, by the way, the person who says things like
I’ve even had a woman analyze my hopelessness at the end of an evening: “yeah, there were a couple of times that were perfect for you to kiss me… but you didn’t.”
is a manipulative, passive-aggressive creep. Good for you that you didn’t get involved with this freakazoid because if you had, you’d spend the next few years endlessly bullied into second-guessing your every move. Also, what’s with allowing people to talk to you in such disrespectful ways? That just isn’t right.
Clarissa's Blog 
A glance for me it’s an invitaiton for playing. She’s likely not interested in me but just wants a game (for fun). Good play, however, does create interest if not existing at the beginning. If you don’t know playing, however, I guess yeah, it’s better to leave it there…
LikeLike
What is playing??? You mean something like chess?
LikeLike
Yes exactly like chess! She teases, you tease back. If there’s a further tease, you tease a bit stronger… and so on, It’s a battle of nerves to see who loses its head first.
LikeLike
I do not agree with this at all. I have often found out after the fact that women were, or thought they were, “expressing sexual interest in me” and I had no idea until years afterwards. It just does not work that way. Partly, of course, it is because I was taught as a teenager that no matter what a girl or woman does, it does not indicate sexual interest. You are being a male chauvinist pig if you think it does. (When I was a teenager, the words were different; but the message was the same. In those days it was worded something like: “A gentleman never touches a woman who is not his wife.”)
LikeLike
I’ve been blocked for years by a similar mentality. I’m ashamed how long it has taken me to break out of it. See my post: Breaking the rules: http://whatisthecauseofthunder.wordpress.com/2013/05/04/breaking-the-rules/
LikeLike
This is a very good post. You don’t need to be ashamed because you did manage to get out of the learned mentality. This is a rare feat.
LikeLike
I hate that kind of manipulation…
LikeLike
” In those days it was worded something like: “A gentleman never touches a woman who is not his wife.”)”
– But then how does he get a wife at all? 🙂 🙂 And what does a gentleman do on a bus or in any public place to avoid touching women? 🙂
I’m very glad the world is changing and I’m sure you are glad, too.
LikeLike
Don Draper is the protagonist of Mad Men (totally worth watching but only from the beginning).
As good an introduction as any to the character:
The thing is he’s not supposed to be a role-model* (though many misguided male bloggers seem to mistake him for one). He’s essentially tragic hero with lots of good qualities and a few really, really bad ones.
*none of the characters are, that’s one of the great things about it, the major characters are complicated mixtures of good and bad qualities who do good and bad things. Many people who dislike the show aren’t interested in art but in cleverly made propoganda.
LikeLike
Doesn’t he rape somebody, or is it another character?
LikeLike
No. The only unambiguous rape was when Joan’s terrible doctor fiance/husband in Don’s(?) office (though I don’t know if Joan was really thinking in those terms).
Many try to interpret Pete and au pair as rape but I’m not really buying it.
Off the top of my head I can’t think of any other cases on the show though Don has done some very sleazy sex things, I havent’ seen any of the new season so from 1-5 the top three sleazy things were
bronze – fingering Bobbie Barret with their spouses in the next room
silver – sleeping wtih his secretary when he was drunk and then trying to pretend it never happened
gold – hitting on Anna’s neice (though he did stop right away when challenged)
LikeLike
Ah, I think I saw the fingering scene because there was a lot of hype about it on many of the blogs I follow. I didn’t see any rape in the scene but many people did.
LikeLike
This looks exactly like a scene from Queer as Folk, one of my favorite shows ever! In the show, Brian is an owner of an ad agency who has a very unique approach to creating ads. He is a very complicated character who has horrible qualities and wonderful qualities. He is aggressive, promiscuous, unconventional, seemingly cynical, and shocks everybody with his way of being. Yet everybody needs him to organize their lives. That was an amazing show. Maybe I’d like this one, too, if it’s similar.
LikeLike
Don is creative, charismatic, ambitious and can figure out what other people want far better than he can figure out what he wants himself. He literally reinvented himself and assumes everyone can (which has led to some truly horrible things happening). He also isn’t sure himself what part of him is real and what is artifice and tries hard (and fails) not to think about it.
The other major characters are all really interesting in conflicted ways too.
LikeLike
“shown that you are desired clearly”
My English is bad. I don’t understand this.
LikeLike
Okay…I reread this post and I understand now. 🙂
I was an idiot! 😉
LikeLike
This is why often I have a hard time looking at people. I never know what they are going to read into it.
LikeLike
I’m another one with Clarissa – when I wanted a dude, I made it known. I figured out ways to spend times with him, I snuggled up against him when we were sitting together, I kissed him. End of story. The dudes did not have to read shit into “glances”. I just went for it. Same for the guys who pursued me. People like to create so much drama and tension in their lives… I just don’t understand it.
LikeLike
“I’m another one with Clarissa – when I wanted a dude, I made it known. I figured out ways to spend times with him, I snuggled up against him when we were sitting together, I kissed him. End of story. The dudes did not have to read shit into “glances”. I just went for it. Same for the guys who pursued me. People like to create so much drama and tension in their lives… I just don’t understand it”
– Exactly! There is no mystery or anything super tragic about the whole thing. People who feel desire do not let the desired person escape easily. 🙂
LikeLike
By what is apparently your own standard, these people live in the Rapist Land capital.
LikeLike
What is this, an invasion of the stupid on the blog? Where do all these idiots suddenly come from?
LikeLike
I for one come right from FCB where Daran has just come out of a several months long hiatus to dissect your womansplaining.
LikeLike
It’s cute how readily you confess you are stupid. 🙂
Please go back to the place were you and your kind spawn. Nobody needs you here.
LikeLike
Clarissa, how does it feel when people ignore you on your own blog?
LikeLike
Yes, you are definitely stupid. 🙂 You can’t ignore me by coming to my blog and leaving comments here. But I would be happy if you and your idiot friends went away.
LikeLike
“-when I wanted a dude, I made it known.”
By the past tense here, I infer that you never want dudes anymore. This is in keeping with my experience. Whenever a woman gives me her phone number, I almost never call her. I expect that most women will be relieved that I do not bug them.
LikeLike
“Whenever a woman gives me her phone number, I almost never call her.”
– You can give her your number and let her call instead. Or maybe your email, many people find that easier.
For me, by the way, it is all also in the past because I already have the best dude there is. 🙂 And it’s only with an enormous effort of will-power that I don’t explain just how great he is in every post. 🙂
LikeLike
Ha! Not exactly – I married the last one I wanted 😉 Now I don’t even have to invent excuses to see him, I just skip straight to the kissing.
LikeLike
“Whenever a woman gives me her phone number, I almost never call her.”
– You can give her your number and let her call instead. Or maybe your email, many people find that easier.
I did that from time to time. I got maybe three calls in thirty five years.
LikeLike
Yeah… There’s this thing called non-verbal communication. I know it seems inconceivable, but a girl deliberately locking eyes with a boy across the room, smiling, and holding the gaze for a few seconds COULD be an indication of romantic/sexual/whatever intent. You can even switch the words ‘boy’ and ‘girl’ and our little thought experiment still holds true. This happens in real life too, I’ve seen it. Hell, I discerned the romantic intent of my fiance by catching long glimpses of her in my rear view mirror on our way back from a camping trip. And I find it quite presumptuous that “…if you feel like you need to analyze glances and figure out clues, I have a very simple explanation for you: She’s just not that into you. And when she is, no guessing and wondering will be needed.” Again, there’s this whole broad spectrum thing we call communication. Women have approached me on occasion, sure. And I’m sure that some women would drag a guy they’re interested in straight into whatever convenient dark corner to have sex without the man having to have an internal struggle of wondering if she likes him. Your examples of brazenness don’t seem to reflect average social interaction, at least as far as I’ve seen. ALSO, this kid is not concerned with letting a female express her sexual desires in her own time to him, he’s trying to figure out how to just interact appropriately! I find that social dynamics are a lot more subtle in the real-world most of the time, and people are generally more inclined to slow play their attraction, at least in the real-world I live in. Heaven forbid someone does have interest but one or both of the parties suffers from social anxiety or has self-esteem issues or a fear of rejection (remember, this could be the GIRL that is supposedly after the patiently complacent boy). And you digress into a discourse about sexual desire and intent. I thought your original complaint had to do with perceived attraction. Also, that’s a nice categorization of men as sex craving beggars. “And, by the way, the person who says things like
I’ve even had a woman analyze my hopelessness at the end of an evening: “yeah, there were a couple of times that were perfect for you to kiss me… but you didn’t.”
is a manipulative, passive-aggressive creep. Good for you that you didn’t get involved with this freakazoid because if you had, you’d spend the next few years endlessly bullied into second-guessing your every move. Also, what’s with allowing people to talk to you in such disrespectful ways? That just isn’t right.”
So the female in question is a manipulative, passive-aggressive creep….because after sending non-verbal signals that she wanted a kiss, she was honest about her intentions and attempted to gain feedback. These are principles of human interaction, pure and simple, That you can make such baseless derogatory claims from one line is a little sad, and if I had to play therapist I’d wager you have something lurking under the covers that troubles you in the venutian realm. Obviously had the boy kissed her, their relationship would’ve ended up EXACTLY as you foresaw. As for him “letting” her be disrespectful, you sure did come off as abrasive and superior in your chastisement of his passivity. Pot… Kettle… Straightforward is not synonymous with….whatever it was you inferred out of one line of some kid’s blog. Sounds to me like this kid is a little shy and could use people giving him a little encouragement, not deriding the fact that he feels awkward and incapable of interacting with women. From my understanding of all that he wrote, it has absolutely nothing to do with your assertion “that in order to get laid men need to decipher women’s intentions. And this way of thinking is a road straight to Rapist Land”. What an insulting farce.
I shudder to think what would happen if he accidentally stared at you for more than a few seconds, or heaven forbid tried to put his arm around you without you giving him a notarized letter expressing your interest. Maced? Ticket to Rapist Land? We men are so obviously despicable, I don’t know how women even leave their homes.
LikeLike
Buddy, unclench. Keep pining for manipulative freakazoids who play their weird games on you. If that’s more fun than having a happy, rich sex life, then you are absolutely entitled to it. When you actually become a man instead of a whiny and pathetic little boy, you can come back and I will be kind enough to teach you the basics of a healthy sex life.
Just breathe.
LikeLike
Austin, could you explain to us what is a non-verbal consent?
LikeLike
It’s the most common type. The type where people show by actions instead of by words that they consent, often enthusiastically so.
LikeLike
“Austin, could you explain to us what is a non-verbal consent?”
She is kissing you, grinding on you and smiling. Consent is not verbal most of the time.
LikeLike
What is there to prevent a normal human being from asking, “So, do you want to have sex?”
Consent is always verbal among humans. Because humans are verbal. You will get all this when you grow up.
LikeLike
“She is kissing you, grinding on you and smiling. ‘
– You have to be a completely stupid, brainless meathead to think this means a person is consenting to anything. What an idiotic loser you are. One more stupid comment like that and I will ban you for good. Go join other freakazoids in your cages at the zoo.
LikeLike
I have social anxiety and low self-esteem. And I don’t like rejection – who does?
But that doesn’t mean I like hints and playing mind games. It means I don’t like crowds or silly smalltalk with aquaintances.
I’d rather tell someone how I feel than expect them to magically intuit my feelings through my eyes.
Yes when I was a teenager with my first crush I was so overwhelmed by my feelings I felt sure they must be apparant to everyone. But as an adult I realise that if I want someone to know how I feel I have to communicate with them.
And sometimes I may have missed out on something by not talking to someone sooner but that’s my fault for not telling them how I feel; not their fault for not magically picking up on hints.
LikeLike
I have social anxiety and low self-esteem. And I don’t like rejection – who does?
But that doesn’t mean I like hints and playing mind games. It means I don’t like crowds or silly smalltalk with aquaintances.
I’d rather tell someone how I feel than expect them to magically intuit my feelings through my eyes.
Yes when I was a teenager with my first crush I was so overwhelmed by my feelings I felt sure they must be apparant to everyone. But as an adult I realise that if I want someone to know how I feel I have to communicate with them.
And sometimes I may have missed out on something by not talking to someone sooner but that’s my fault for not telling them how I feel; not their fault for not magically picking up on hints.
I always find it odd when people bring up ‘But what if they’re socially awkward?” in internet debates because I am socially awkward but I don’t interact with people the way they say socially awkward people interact.
LikeLike
I have social anxiety and low self-esteem. And I don’t like rejection – who does?
But that doesn’t mean I like hints and playing mind games. It means I don’t like crowds or silly smalltalk with aquaintances.
I’d rather tell someone how I feel than expect them to magically intuit my feelings through my eyes.
Yes when I was a teenager with my first crush I was so overwhelmed by my feelings I felt sure they must be apparant to everyone. But as an adult I realise that if I want someone to know how I feel I have to communicate with them.
And sometimes I may have missed out on something by not talking to someone sooner but that’s my fault for not telling them how I feel; not their fault for not magically picking up on hints.
I always find it odd when people bring up ‘But what if they’re socially awkward?” in internet debates because I am socially awkward but I don’t interact with people the way they say socially awkward people interact. Indeed thinking about it, I reckon confident extroverts are more likely to hint because they’ll find it easier to bounce on to the next person if their hints do not land on fertile ground.
LikeLike
@Dave – no idea what non-verbal consent is. I don’t think I said that.
@Clarissa – Attack my character, call me names, infer all you want. It doesn’t change the fact that you made ridiculous generalizations and baseless claims about the nature of human interaction (especially all those men begging you for sex, that sounds like a normal healthy sex life). I’m not criticizing being straightforward. I guess not everyone is as deliberate about their sexual intent as you. Some of us think subtlety, restraint, and anticipation are sensual things that enhance intimacy. I’m sorry if you’re so mistrustful of people’s intentions enough to perceive all such interactions as “weird games”. Also, I’ve never been accused of rape when I approached a woman who I perceived to be giving me non-verbal cues. Most of the the times I was right about the signals, and the times I misread the situation……nothing terrible happened.
LikeLike
Austin: you can’t read a non-verbal clue, as evidenced by the fact that you don’t even realize that I don’t read your comments. So I will give you a verbal clue: you are an object of my intense pity. I’m sorry for you. Now you can just go away.
LikeLike
So how do you establish that there’s a consent if all is non-verbal?
LikeLike
Most commonly by taking a series of small steps, i.e. by doing it *together*. It’s normally not that hard to notice if someone is enthusiastic, reluctant or opposed to some activity, and adjust your behaviour accordingly.
LikeLike
“all those men begging you for sex, that sounds like a normal healthy sex life”
Begging and sex are different things. It’s funny that you don’t see a difference. I wonder what that says about you. . .
LikeLike
I was trying to help the post’s author see that he is substituting a sex life with these guessing games. I’m sure he will see that I’m right after the huffing and puffing ends.
LikeLike
For those who do want to learn:
Every relationship between any human beings begins with a struggle for power. Every single one. We can dislike this fact, yet it is not going away. The balance of power that is established at the beginning is next to impossible to change later on in the relationship.
So when somebody says to you, “yeah, there were a couple of times that were perfect for you to kiss me… but you didn’t”, they are trying to set up a relational model where you are an ignorant little school-child being gently scolded and instructed by a benign, condescending authority.
Letting this happen is an enormous mistake. (Unless you really enjoy being condescended to). So the only appropriate response that will shift the balance of power and put you in control is: “Oh. . . you wanted me to kiss you? I’m sorry, I just don’t see you that way. You are a nice person but. . . sorry.”
After that, there is a huge probability that the interlocutor will run after you like a lovesick puppy. And you will be able to decide whether you need this person in your life, and will be able to dictate the terms.
And most importantly: even if you are totally, completely, overpoweringly in love, do not allow the person to wrestle all of the control away from you. You will not be getting it back later.
LikeLike
Yeah, you read em. I stumbled on your blog from a Zizek book review, and you commented how you liked to “foster intelligent debate” or something to that effect. Your “debate” on those Zizek posts was at least an attempt at respectful argument, albeit weak and stylistic. Here, I engage and offer my own criticism to your post and you can only muster a straw man and some slander. And you profess to be an open minded academic. How sad. I hope other people read this and see how classy you are. Don’t post controversial things if you can’t handle the criticism. I’m sure you’ll delete my replies. Oh well, I know people of weak character when I read the nonsense they spew. Goodbye, Clarisaa. Keep on doing good
LikeLike
Once again, I’m very very sorry for you. I’m sure, though, that you will find the strength to change your situation. Good luck!
LikeLike
Austin
Stick around, maybe you can get banned for a while………. 😉
Clairissa is just fine, very passionate, but fine. Though she does have a sensitive side that masquerades as aggression. 🙂
LikeLike
No, he’ll never get special enough to be banned.
Of course, people can always improve with age.
LikeLike
About the best outcome possible of being the kind of person who tries to read meaning into casual glances is being that person at a party whom everyone oh-so casually looks above their head or beyond them in order to not make eye contact – because if you do they glom onto you like a leech.
I repeat, that’s the best option. I suppose if you are really determined you could find a person who subscribes to the complementary rigid role but honestly, that way doom lies – either you’re stuck with not really knowing you’re loved and desired, or you get a partner who, regardless of good intentions tramples over your boundaries at least from time to time (because no one is THAT good a guesser).
Worse, you could be the kind of idiot who mistook my general introversion and specific to him aversion for that kind of game playing and proceeded to become a serious nuisance for a while. He was so wedded to his idea of the ‘rules’ that even direct evidence to the contrary (me saying I was not, am not and never would be interested directly to his face) was disregarded in favour of his interpretation of body language. It ended with him being booted from the work group when the moderator noticed his asinineness.
LikeLike
“I did that from time to time. I got maybe three calls in thirty five years.”
– Weren’t you married in that time, though?
LikeLike
The more I read this post, the more I love it.
LikeLike
Thank you. 🙂
What’s sad is that I was trying to communicate very good news to the author of the linked piece. I was trying to tell him that he is perfectly fine, he has no problem whatsoever, he shouldn’t feel bad or guilty or blame himself for not knowing how to decipher anything. He is doing everything right, in spite of maniuplators trying to tell him he is damaged.
But he got upset with me and not with people who try to guilt-trip him and manipulate him. Weird.
LikeLike
Clarissa,
I just want to make sure I’m not missreading you here…
So are you essentially saying that in the mating game, if someone is giving you an ambiguous signal, they are being manipulative and it is time to move on and find someone more straight forward?
LikeLike
I’m saying there are no ambiguous signals. We invent them because we don’t want to recognize the truth. When somebody wants you, there is no ambiguity
LikeLike
So Clarissa, at one point I was invited on a “group date.” The ladies showed no interest (not even friendly) in me, so I left early.
Would you say in that set of circumstances, that is the most dignified thing I could’ve done?
Would you say that a man should not pursue a woman until he has an unambiguous “go” signal?
LikeLike
I think you were absolutely right in this situation, and I congratulate you on having dignity and self-respect. I also want to leave this quote from your post here because it is very valuable: “I also explained how I’m past pursuing women in my personal life. I realize as a male I’ll have to probably initiate and such, however, a woman who is interested has to reciprocate interest at some point. It’s not equitable to expect me to do it all and to the feminists and every one else talks about equality-fair is only fair. Again, think of it this way, a teacher has an obligation to teach a student. However, the student also has an obligation to learn-that is take the time to study, show up to class. One sided propositions don’t work.
What where we supposed to do? Say 67 different things until we “cracked the code” and they thought we were witty enough/worthy enough to put down the phone? You do see the risk in that, in trying to “say the right thing” there is an equal risk in saying something that is meant to be edgy humor that could be offensive to one of them. A system where men are supposed to always pursue women putts men in the disadvantaged position. If “things go wrong” it is the pursuers fault-always.”
The balance of power is established very early on in a relationship and it is very hard to change it later on. If you occupy the position of a humble supplicant who makes all the effort and hopes for an eventual reward, you run the risk of always being this powerless person in the relationship.
And if somebody accuses you of not guessing what they meant correctly and on time, that person is a manipulator and should be avoided.
LikeLike
Every single woman who has ever fallen in love with me – was first someone who had given me ambiguous signals.
There’s also a study on women sending “obvious, overt signals” to men. Again, the women were utterly convinced they were 1000% overt and obvious in their signalling. The men however (93% of men) missed all of these so-called obvious signals. What’s obvious to the average woman is not obvious to the average man often.
And then, women are not that good readers either. Another study studied observed a woman interacting with a man, and female/male viewers were asked to tell if she was interested or not. Women were no better at reading whether a woman is interested in a man, than men were.
I wish and would trade half of everything I own to live on the planet you envision clarissa. I wish women were unambigious and clear, I really wish. I will also tell you that if I had followed your advice i’d be the 40 year old virgin, since not a single woman has ever in my entire life ever given me unambigious signals of interest. Not a single one.
There are plenty of studies and research that women send erratic, ambigious signals. I really wish all of social psychology and anthropology was wrong clarissa, I really do. I really wish I lived on the planet you envision as female ambiguity is the only reason I ever have any negativity toward dating. I wish it didn’t exist, and on your imaginary planet it might not. On planet earth ambiguity is business as usual.
LikeLike
I’m very very sorry for you. This is surely a very hard life, never to be desired and pursued. But you can change this sad state of things and it won’t even be as expensive as you believe. If you really want to join us all on this planet of honest desire and absence of manipulation, you can do that. The very first but crucial step is to stop looking for these pseudo-scientific discussion of “what women are / feel / like / want / communicate” and look at yourself. What it is that prevents you from being powerfully sexually attractive to a crowd of people? There is a lot of courage and strength one needs to look for answers in that direction but that’s the only way.
Here is a reading suggestion on the subject: https://clarissasblog.com/2011/10/07/the-reasons-people-are-romantically-and-sexually-unsuccessful/
LikeLike
Nice try.
I’ve never ever ever ever witnessed women giving OTHER men unambigious signals of interest ever. And I am speaking both my hundreds of male friends and acquintances and spending a decade observing the party/club/social scene. I NEVER see women showing men unambigious interest. The best you ever see is a coy sideway glance in a man’s “general” direction”. In social scenes the best you may get is a smile that’s 0.5 seconds longer than the friendly smile and it varies from woman to woman.
– My main FWB right now is an accomplished TV personality and even her neighbours know my name
– I’ve been with more women than even most of the famous and rich male friends I have
– My cellphone is full of messages from women asking me to “visit” and my facebook wall full of hearts and winks
So I’m well aware I’m sexually desirable and lusted after. Most of them even verbally tell me so outright.
But only AFTER I do all the work to them in bed and battle through the mixed signals. They ONLY show unambigious interest AFTER I take all the risk and show my hand.
I love how you dismissed all of anthropology and social psychology as “pseudo-scientific”. Please find me a “scientific” study that shows women send “clear unambigious and readily readable signs of interest”. I dare you.
LikeLike
Look, buddy, it’s ultimately your choice. Want to keep humiliating yourself and begging for attention, feel free. Want to collect silly “studies ” just to avoid generating self-respect, that’s up to you. You obviously dig self-debasement, and that’s your right.
LikeLike
“So I’m well aware I’m sexually desirable and lusted after. Most of them even verbally tell me so outright.
But only AFTER I do all the work to them in bed and battle through the mixed signals. ”
– This doesn’t even make sense. Outright and after have the opposite meanings. You can’t even keep your own story straight.
Sheesh, what lies wouldn’t people tell themselves to avoid making efforts to improve their lives.
LikeLike
out·right [adj. out-rahyt; adv. out-rahyt, -rahyt]
adjective
1. complete or total: an outright loss.
2. downright or unqualified: an outright refusal.
3. without further payments due, restrictions, or qualifications: an outright sale of the car.
4. Archaic. directed straight out or on.
adverb
5. completely; entirely.
6. without restraint, reserve, or concealment; openly: Tell me outright what’s bothering you.
7. at once; instantly: to be killed outright.
I bet the dictionary is pseudo-scientific too? Some pseudo-scientist implanted the first 6, when really the word only can be used as in option 7, it can’t be that you are ever wrong, amirite?
LikeLike
Buddy, you can’t write a single sentence without making several grammar mistakes. Don’t make yourself look pathetic here, debating linguistic usages with philologists, seriously. You are a very uneducated, unintelligent person who doesn’t even have the brains to realize when you are being laughed at. If you want to know why nobody shows any interest in you, here is your reason.
Please go away now. You have started to bore.
LikeLike
Considering English is my 4th language, I think I’m pretty darn amazing.
I wouldn’t call a masters in anthropology and 10 year of social psychology interest “uneducated” either. I’m far more qualified on these subjects than a philologist.
LikeLike
“I wouldn’t call a masters in anthropology and 10 year of social psychology interest “uneducated” either.”
– You wouldn’t and I would. It isn’t my fault you have such low educational standards. Also, if you are older than 15, this nickname you have chosen for yourself betrays serious sexual issues. Either get a Viagra prescription or don’t announce your problems so overtly and unambiguously. 🙂 🙂
“I’m far more qualified on these subjects than a philologist.”
– The subject we were discussing was dictionary definitions of simple words. Do you have short-term memory loss? 🙂
You are a very funny person.
LikeLike
Actually you made 2 ad-homs in one comment. One was about my imperfect english, the other was to call me uneducated.
I responded to both. My education on matters cultural and sociological is far superior to that of a philologist, period.
So far, you’ve not provided any evidence or logical refutation to any of my arguments, and you’ve engaged primarily in ad-homs… here are a list of just some of the ad-homs you used…
– You dig self-debasement
– You are uneducated
– You are unintelligent
– You are begging for attention
– Your grammar sucks
– You are never desired
– You are pathetic
– You’re a bore
– (insinuated with viagra snark) You must have ED issues
– Your words are verbal diarrhea
– You’re angry at other men getting unambigious attention
– You have short-term memory loss
– You’re one funny person (not in the positive connotation)
– You’re obsessed
– You are being laughed at
– You have sexual issues
– Your friends are all manipulative idiots
– Your educational institution must have very low standards
– You disrepect yourself and your time
– You are weak
– You have no dignity
Claims made
– If you simply shift your view and respect yourself more, women will hit on you, ask you out, show clear and unambigious interest etc
A list of your arguments and evidence for such claims
– It is so because I say it is so
– All research that doesn’t fit my opinion is pseudo-science and I shall provide no evidence to back up what I say.
LikeLike
“So far, you’ve not provided any evidence or logical refutation to any of my arguments, and you’ve engaged primarily in ad-homs… here are a list of just some of the ad-homs you used…”
– The level of verbosity shows that I hit a very painful spot. That’s good, it’s very therapeutic to confront your problems in such a direct way. Now, a little assignment: which one of the statements you listed feels the most egregious and ridiculous. Remember, you’ve got to pick one.
Take your time.
LikeLike
As a woman who does give unambiguous signals of interest when actually interested, I think your problem might be looking for such women in the party/club scene. It is its own subculture with its own special rules (which do, indeed, seem to include man-always-initiates) so to generalize from that to the entire planet isn’t the best of plans. One of the reasons I’ve never used clubs to meet guys is precisely that they always initiate, then keep pushing – it’s really like trying to waltz with both partners trying to lead and it helps neither them nor me have an enjoyable night. So I guess the reason you’ve never seen women initiate is precisely the fact that you always do – thus ensuring their uninterest in you.
LikeLike
“One of the reasons I’ve never used clubs to meet guys is precisely that they always initiate, then keep pushing – it’s really like trying to waltz with both partners trying to lead and it helps neither them nor me have an enjoyable night.”
– Exactly. If men just relaxed a little and relinquished the uncomfortable role of needing to push, beg and cajole, everybody would have a good time.
What I want to achieve with this post is to get men to see that they have been duped into accepting the idea that they always need to beg for and “earn” sex. It is very indicative of how strong this myth has grown that so many people would get upset when told that they can stop begging already.
It’s OK, though, I know that I will eventually get emails from at least two or three readers telling me that they tried “my method” and are super happy they did. This is what always happens. People bristle at first but the ones who try always discover surprising things.
LikeLike
@Stille & General club misreading
I very specifically said that I have tons of of experience in all 3 types of contexts! I did not say I ONLY have experience in “clubs & parties” which you somehow misread. I said 1/clubs 2/parties 3/SOCIAL SCENES
And I specifically differentiate how it works, putting social separately. I’ve been involved with literally dozens of social scenes, anything from political clubs, to NGOs, to hobby-based communities, to volunteering and activism groups to dancing groups, to language classes etc etc… I have NEVER EVER observed not a SINGLE female EVER giving ANY of the men in ANY of those social scenes so called “unambigious” show of interest. It just never happens. EVER, to ANY man.
LikeLike
This is a perfect example of verbal diarrhea. Do ask yourself what makes you so angry about the idea that other men are desired unambiguously.
“I have NEVER EVER observed not a SINGLE female EVER giving ANY of the men in ANY of those social scenes so called “unambigious” show of interest. It just never happens. EVER, to ANY man.”
– And I have never seen New Zealand. This must mean it doesn’t exist.
LikeLike
That’s an oxymoron. By definition anything we in communication call “signals” IS never unambigious, since they’re SIGNALS!!
You know what’s “unambigous”? It’s going up to a guy you happen to like as more than a friend and saying “I like you Bob, I’d love it if you asked me out sometime”.
Now THAT is unambigious.
Now, let’s say you’re CERTAIN you’re sending “clear signals” with your actions and behaviour that you think is unambigious?
(if you meant that you do verbally ask men outright, then I then salute you, but I’m assuming here that by “signals” you mean actions and behaviours, not verbalizing your interest in men).
Again: Now, let’s say you’re CERTAIN you’re sending “clear signals” with your actions and behaviour that you think is unambigious?
How do you KNOW ? I’m not even going to reference the study I mentioned earlier which showed that 93% of men don’t even SEE the sort of signals women think are “obvious”
However, I am going to reference personal anecdote with hundreds of female friends (since studies are hated around these parts)…
– > I have hundreds of female friends, and I often give them dating advice. By FAR the MOST COMMON advice I end up having to give them is to be MORE OVERT. BY FAR!
Here’s a typical conversation, some variation of which I’ve had with hundreds of female friends:
Her: Yeah, so I like this guy, and he doesn’t like me… I guess I’m not his type
Me: How do you KNOW that?
Her: Well I have been giving him a chance for like 4 months, and he still hasn’t made a move
Me: Has it ever occured to you that men are afraid of rejection, and he won’t make a move unless he’s certain he has a chance?
Her: Well I’ve made it abundantly clear I’m INTO him!!
Me: How SPECIFICALLY have you done that? What SPECIFICALLY have you done to let him know you’re interested?
Her: Well, I’ve been chatting with him for MONTHS, and I always write him first!
Me: Well you’ve been chatting with me for months too, and you always write me first too. And you and me are just friends. How is that a “clear signal”? Female friends who just want to be close friends do the same
Her: Well I ONCE TOLD HIM “dude, you move so slow with girls, you might actually lose on a girl you like”… and he said “Yeah, I know”.
Me: HOW IS THAT CLEAR? That’s a “hint”. You didn’t say “you’re waiting too long to make a move on ME”, you said “slow with girls”. THAT IS NOT CLEAR interest showing
Her: Yeaaah, well….
I could go on, but you get the point. There’s a difference between what women think is overt, and what really is overt to a man.
LikeLike
Wow, you are really obsessed. 🙂 Other men’s sexual success surely bothers you a lot.
LikeLike
Is it even possible for you to discuss a subject without constantly resorting to shaming and ad-homs? Literally, the only thing you haven’t done yet is mention my p-size. Literally, you’ve used every single line in the book of shaming lines. Literally.
Oh, that and you haven’t mentioned my mother. Those are the only two you haven’t yet used.
LikeLike
I’m still completely shocked by your confession that you have allowed people to waste your life with these repetitive neurotic conversations HUNDREDS OF TIMES. I feel profound compassion for you. Man, hundreds of times. This is just sad.
Really, you need to stop. Do you realize that the absolute majority of people wouldn’t have allowed this to be done to them twice, let alone HUNDREDS OF TIMES? Just imagine how much fun you could have had, how much money you could have made, how many books you could have read, how much sex you could have had, etc., etc. in all that time that these manipulative neurotics stole from you.
Remember how I said that what attracts people sexually and makes them unambiguously desire you is healthy sexuality + confidence? You have serious problems in both areas. So start with working on your confidence first. The next time a neurotic tries to involve you an a “Yes, but. . .” discussion, shut that down immediately. Respect yourself and people will respect you. Good luck!
LikeLike
I resent referring to my female friends as “neurotic”. That includes both my feminist and non-feminist friends.
The reason i’ve had this conversation with my female friends hundreds of times is because I’ve had dating and relationship talks with female friends thousands of times in my life. Call me an atypical guy, but I don’t watch sports, I don’t discuss politics, I discuss relationships and people and most of my friends are women, which is why most of my socializing time is catching up with female friends.
I don’t see socializing with women as “a waste of time” and I resent you implying that.
Unlike you, I don’t believe these women have a bad motif, they really cry themselves to sleep thinking no guy likes them – that’s hardly a manipulation. They really do think they’re being overt and that the guy is rejecting them by not acting on their (overt, but in reality covert) signals.
You have yet to provide any evidence that overt move-making women are anything but outliers. I’ve provided tons of references, you’ve provided none except “I say it is so, because I am one such woman”.
Also your concept about “stop pursuing and begging women and they will pursue you” has just one problem. Most so called “nice guys” tm are guys who listen to your advice and spend most of their youth doing that, which is why they start dating later in life. (when they figure out they’ve been lied by people like you)
The typical “nice” young man has been brainwashed by advice like yours, and spends most of high-school and college seeing all the women dating “jerks” (i.e. assertive man who hit on and flirt with women relentlessly).
He wastes anywhere between 5-10 years of sexual prime in celibacy, waiting for these supposed “women who pursue men”, but it never happens.
Everyone who’s arging with you is someone who’s waster their youth by having been lied to by people like you. Most men ONLY start dating when they figure out that your type of advice is a LIE.
LikeLike
I can only repeat that I feel deep compassion for you. I believe, however, that you can look honestly at your issues and begin to resolve them. I most sincerely wish you the best and hope that you will manage to find your way. You deserve better than the sad life you have been leading, you really do. The next time, somebody tries to have such a conversation with you, just tell yourself, “I’ve been used like this hundreds of times. Enough is enough. This stops now.”
You can do it!
LikeLike
That makes no sense whatsover.
I’m the one who initiates the conversation and I’ve helped many female friends improve their dating lives by teaching them to be more overt.
I don’t see helping my female friends understand themselves and men better as “being used”. No more than them setting me up with their friends as me “using them”. Friendship is people doing things for each other.
LikeLike
“I don’t see helping my female friends understand themselves and men better as “being used”. No more than them setting me up with their friends as me “using them”.”
– Yes, this is exactly what everybody who is used shamelessly by others always says. 🙂
LikeLike
“Here’s a typical conversation, some variation of which I’ve had with hundreds of female friends:
Her: Yeah, so I like this guy, and he doesn’t like me… I guess I’m not his type
Me: How do you KNOW that?
Her: Well I have been giving him a chance for like 4 months, and he still hasn’t made a move
Me: Has it ever occured to you that men are afraid of rejection, and he won’t make a move unless he’s certain he has a chance?
Her: Well I’ve made it abundantly clear I’m INTO him!!
Me: How SPECIFICALLY have you done that? What SPECIFICALLY have you done to let him know you’re interested?
Her: Well, I’ve been chatting with him for MONTHS, and I always write him first!
Me: Well you’ve been chatting with me for months too, and you always write me first too. And you and me are just friends. How is that a “clear signal”? Female friends who just want to be close friends do the same
Her: Well I ONCE TOLD HIM “dude, you move so slow with girls, you might actually lose on a girl you like”… and he said “Yeah, I know”.
Me: HOW IS THAT CLEAR? That’s a “hint”. You didn’t say “you’re waiting too long to make a move on ME”, you said “slow with girls”. THAT IS NOT CLEAR interest showing
Her: Yeaaah, well….”
– If all of your friends are manipulative idiots, this tells us a lot about yourself. Birds of a feather flock together, as you know. It is shocking that there are people who value their time and their dignity so little that they allow others to engage them in these completely neurotic conversations HUNDREDS of times. Why do you disrespect yourself so much? Why are you so weak?
LikeLike
You do realize a good portion of my female friends are feminists?
One organized the local Vagina Monologues and works on DV campaigns. Another works at an NGO and publishes feminist research.
Most of the others are feminists in less professional capacities.
Let’s go with the NGO friend who actually is the editor on a journal that includes pieces about “sexual harassment” and “rape culture”.
I’ve never EVER EVER witnessed HER giving unambiguous signs of interest either. She acts the exact same way with us male friends as she does with the guys she ends up dating. The behavior is about the same.
How that for cognitive dissonance? Are you saying the leading publisher of women’s journals hired an editor that’s a “manipulative idiot”?
Specifically, this same friend has many times asked us guys in our circle “Why don’t you guys go talk to some women”, even though not a single woman at the given location/bar/party/event was giving us unambigious interest invitations.
This is a feminist who approves pieces that say initiating women without clear invitiation is “rape culture”, yet here she is, when she socializes with us, she tells us to go approach and talk to women without invitation…
Mind… blown…
LikeLike
So either my boyfriend’s an alien robot from the future, or he’s a man but I’m actually a gay guy without knowing it, I guess. Since I’m pretty sure that I was he one who said I wanted us to be together, I was the one that kissed him and I was the one who jumped his bones, there can be no other explanation. Seriously man, watch out with those no female ever generalizations, it only takes 1 woman in 3.5 billion to disprove them and then you look pretty damn silly. Also what is it with referring to men as men and to women as females? Those words aren’t antonyms. And what does you having female friends who call themselves feminists have to do with anything? Do you think political beliefs correlate that strongly with the sexual role a woman wants to play?
LikeLike
I wish it didn’t exist, and on your imaginary planet it might not. On planet earth ambiguity is business as usual.(Womanizer)
Remember, she has already had a couple of kicks at the can, so, maybe, she might know what she speaks of. Then again, maybe not. 🙂
LikeLike
Okay – let’s try this.
1. Let’s imagine that all women aren’t the same. In fact, let’s imagine there are TWO types of women – those who will overtly signal interest, and those who covertly signal interest.
2. Let’s imagine that people who are similar in temperament will cluster together. So if you’re an “overt”, all your friends will be “overts”. If you’re a “covert”, all your friends will be “coverts”.
3. Let’s impose one more fact: that the overts are only 10% of the population; neither coverts, nor overts, know this.
In such a world 90% of men would only be able to get into a relationship by taking the initiative. However, a, unaware of the fact that her “type” is only 10% of the population would find this state of affairs ridiculous. She looks at herself and all of her friends (see 2) and concludes that the vast bulk of the female population must be overtly signalling, which makes the complaints of men silly. So why are men behaving in such a ridiculous fashion? It must be to avoid confronting the fact that noone is interested in them.
Suppose that this overt realises the above in a bout of skepticism. How would she go about figuring out whether her hypothesis is right or not? I suggest that she put aside the “men are in denial” theory and ask them what are the relative proportions of overts and coverts are there in the population. After all, they have to deal with the entire population of women, not just the overt and her friends.
A lot of the men here seem to be saying that most women are coverts. If you don’t want to believe them that’s your right. My question is humbler: what would it take to convince you that you’re wrong.
LikeLike
Hi. The comment I made seems to have disappeared
LikeLike
Let’s try this.
1. Imagine that there are not one, but TWO types of women – those who signal their interests overtly and those who signal their interests covertly.
2. Let’s suppose that people who are similar flock together – the friends of overts tend to be overts, and the friends of coverts tend to be coverts.
3. Let’s suppose that the overts are only 10% of the population, but neither overts nor coverts know this.
In such a world (a) Men would complain that women are too subtle in their communication (b) An overt would look at her friends, and herself, and conclude that most women are overts. Of course, she’d also notice that men are complaining that women are too subtle. She concludes that she’s right (of course) and that the men are complaining because they can’t handle the fact that women do not want to have sex with them.
Let’s suppose that, one day, she has a fit of self-doubt, realises that the above model is a possibility, and wonders if she was mistaken. How can she go about figuring out if she was right or wrong? My suggestion would be to put aside the “men are in denial” theory, and actually ask them what the relative proportion of overts are, n their experience. After all, they have to interact with the entire population of women, not just the overt and her friends.
A lot of men here seem to be telling you that your experiences cannot be generalized; that such behaviour doesn’t occur in the majority of the female population; that even highly intelligent, accomplished, desirable women, perhaps for cultural reasons (what they see on TV), do play these games, and men have to as well.
You’ve dismissed all of these with lines like “I’m very very sorry for you.”, treating these people as individuals who must be inherently undesirable and unable to confront it.
You are free to not update your beliefs, of course, so rather than suggesting something like “be open to the idea that you’re wrong”, I’d rather ask you an easy question: what kind of evidence would it take to convince you that you’re wrong?
LikeLike
So much verbiage just to convince yourself to keep stagnating instead of developing. Well, that’s your choice, and I respect it. But this is a blog for those who want to grow, not for those who want to convince themselves that growth is useless and not possible.
“what kind of evidence would it take to convince you that you’re wrong?”
– Why is it so crucial for you to convince me of anything? Note how I don’t want to convince you and care very little what you believe on the subject. And you know why? because I’m confident of my position.
LikeLike
Would people who are so confident of their position that they dismiss the lived experiences of others grow or stagnate?
It isn’t – that was an invitation to introspect. You’re an academic, aren’t you? I’m inviting you to consider what evidence would falsify your theory that women are, in fact, overt.
Can you kindly delete the first copy of this comment?
I note that you haven’t actually engaged with anything I’ve said. Oh well.
LikeLike
“I note that you haven’t actually engaged with anything I’ve said. Oh well.”
– Because, as I explained several times, I do not engage with things extremely stupid people say. You are a very stupid person. Is thsi overt enough or do you need more evidence of my overtness?
You guys are a piece of work, seriously. For two days I degrade you, humiliate you and spit on you. But you keep coming back and whining for my attention like the most pathetic litte boys in the universe. Do you have no idea what it means to behave like an adult? Do you have no idea what it means to respect yourself?
Of course, no sane person would touch eitehr of you with a pole, let alone have sex with you.
LikeLike
You make me sad, clarissa. Ignoring an argument and resorting to name calling. Worse – the best you can do is to “nobody wants to have sex with you.” This is not behavior I expect from an academic. Krugman can do a better zinger while on meth. Good luck growing. You’re gonna need it.
LikeLike
Yes, wonderful, now buzz off, little thing.
LikeLike
You don’t “have to”, Navin. You just go find the overts if playing the coverts’ games is unpleasant to you. If you enjoy it, and they enjoy it, go have fun. But if you don’t, and you find yourself upset/resentful towards them, I suggest you give them a skip and go look for people that don’t interact with you in patterns where you end up feeling you have to do things you don’t want to do.
LikeLike
If the number of men who preferred overts exceeded the number of overts, the “unlucky” men would have to either engage with the coverts or stop dating altogether. The latter is not an attractive option for most men.
I personally enjoy the game, although I can see why some men wouldn’t.
LikeLike
overts vs. coverts theory…
While some women are more overt than others, I think the much bigger cause of all this miscommunication is that women believe they are “overts” when in reality they are not.
You know what overt is? “Hey bob, I like you, and I’d love it if you asked me out”. NOW THAT is overt.
I’ve talked to hundred of female friends about what they see is overt, and in every single case, the things they listed as examples of “being overt” were things no man would read as such.
Studies bare this out too. Most women are not as overt as they think they are.
LikeLike
“You know what overt is? “Hey bob, I like you, and I’d love it if you asked me out”. NOW THAT is overt.”
– This sounds very convoluted. Why not just, “Hey Bob, I like you. Want to go out?” Asking him to ask you is bizarre.
“Studies bare this out too. Most women are not as overt as they think they are.”
– Bear out, not bare. This is a Freudian slip. 🙂 When I wanted to be overt with my husband on our second date, I pushed him against a wall and said, “Wanna have sex?” Now that’s overt. 🙂 🙂 And if you are wondering who invited whom on the date, that was me, too. 🙂
Maybe now you will realize how silly you are lecturing me on what overt displays of interest are. 🙂
LikeLike
I wasn’t lecturing you. When a comment is preceeded by a quote, it’s directed at the person being quoted. Shocking I know, not everything is about you.
I was responding to the commenter who said she gives “unambigious SIGNALS”.
She did not say she makes OVERT MOVES. She said she gives SIGNALS.
LikeLike
That example you’re suggesting sounds uncomfortably covert to me. Why on earth would I ask a guy if he wanted to ask me out instead of asking him out directly. “Hey Bob, wanna have sex?”
LikeLike
Have you ever done that to a man you haven’t had sex with yet? And why did you say you give SIGNALS?
I was responding to your discussion of overt vs covert indicators of interest and signals. Asking someone to have sex with you is a MOVE, not a signal.
LikeLike
“Have you ever done that to a man you haven’t had sex with yet?”
– I have. Many times. And so has every woman I have ever known under the age of 50. (Birds of a feather, remember?) You are asking this like it’s some sort of a big deal. 🙂 🙂 What’s next? You will inquire whether a woman has ever said “Hi, how are you?” to a man without any extended efforts on his part? 🙂
Look, once again, we are all sorry this never happens to you. But crowds of other men receive very direct offers of sex from women. Now all you have to discover is why this never happens to you. A little hint: the answer doesn’t lie in “all women.” It lies in you.
LikeLike
My phone’s full of direct offers of sex from women. Don’t change the subject.
The point is all of them are women I’ve already had sex with before. There was a study on this (I know you hate science sorry), and gender-differences on initiating FIRST sex. It did not match your world-view, I’m sorry.
The entire discussion here is about whether women show UNAMBIGIOUS OVERT interest FIRST.
Asking a guy out on a second date is not the subject. Most women do that. Kissing a man who’s already told you he wants to be kissed is not the subject, women do that all the time. Kissing a man who’s initiated hand-holding or told your friend he likes you first, is not the subject, women do that all the time.
The point is do women make UNAMBIGIOUS show of interest to a man when HE HAS NOT SHOWN any interest first.
Women show overt interest in me all the time… But only after I show them/admit interest FIRST.
LikeLike
“Women show overt interest in me all the time… But only after I show them/admit interest FIRST.”
– Because you are unattractive, insecure and have sexual issues. I have explained this to you a dozen times already. Yet you extrapolate your miserable existence where women blatantly use you to dump their neurotic garbage and kvetch about other men on everybody. The only person who agrees to have HUNDREDS OF IDENTICAL CONVERSATIONS is you. With this level of self-disrespect, how can you expect anybody to show any interest in you?
You look for reasons everywhere but never find the courage to ask whether you do something to contribute to the issue. Do you believe you have at least a 10% responsibility for your situation? A 1% responsibility? Or is it all somebody else’s fault and you are just a passive toy of existence?
LikeLike
You’re not very good at being an honest conversationalist.
I’d ask you to not insult my friends once again. You are philologist and do not have any qualifications in psychotherapy, nor are you qualified to issues such labels. Thank you.
LikeLike
“You’re not very good at being an honest conversationalist.”
– Then why don’t you go away and pollute the blogs of good conversationalists instead of boring me?
“I’d ask you to not insult my friends once again. You are philologist and do not have any qualifications in psychotherapy, nor are you qualified to issues such labels. Thank you.”
– I don;t care what some stupid twat with zero IQ asks me. The imaginary friends you described are all stupid losers. You are most welcome. 🙂 Feel free to come back for more.
LikeLike
I just want to make this clear for everyone reading this where your stance is
Note: After a long discussion filled with mostly noise (ad-homs) we managed to tease out that when clarissa says “unambigious” interest she means women blatantly making an explicit, overt move on you FIRST, no ifs and buts about it.
Now note, Clarissa is saying here that if you are AT all “not screwed up”, women should be regularily making overt, explicit overt sexual moves on you FIRST with no interest shown by you beforehand.
I repeat. If you are not getting women who act the same around you that Justin Bieber’s fans act around him – you are “SCREWED UP” and “unhealthy” and this completely IRREGARDLESS of your looks or status.
LikeLike
It’s 10,000 times better than the super-covert crap the average man has to deal with to not be celibate.
Sure, men wish women straight up matured and started asking them out, but even something like “I’d love you to ask me out Bob” would be a 10,000 fold improvement over the super-covert crap men have to deal with.
LikeLike
“Why on earth would I ask a guy if he wanted to ask me out instead of asking him out directly. “Hey Bob, wanna have sex?””
– Yes, that was my question, too. But I think our interlocutor hasn’t figured out what is really overt yet. 🙂
LikeLike
Of course. As you can see from above, Clarissa did too. That’s 2 women out of 3.5bil. Your generalizations are looking weaker and weaker. As for why I called it a signal, it is a signal because it signalizes my desire to have sex with the guy. It does so verbally, because I’m very interested in sleeping with the guy and couldn’t be less interested in no-safeword power plays if I tried. They’re, like, an active turn-off for me. If the word means something different in your jargon then sorry. I don’t speak English as a first language either. Anyway, this is the sort of interactions you are missing by insisting women act only in a certain way. The women who don’t seem to become invisible to you, even when they’re repeatedly telling you that that’s not what they do.
LikeLike
“Yes, that was my question, too. But I think our interlocutor hasn’t figured out what is really overt yet.”
I’m blaming the women’s/men’s magazines. You know, the ones that are full of “how to get your guy/gal” advice that’s all extremely manipulative stuff that doesn’t work because if the reader actually got the guy/gal they’d stop buying the stupid magazines. I also blame the people over 16 who haven’t figured out that stuff is bullshit. Like seriously, the fluttering-eyelashes Scarlett O’Hara stuff was fascinating when I was 13, but it’s terribly ineffective in actually getting me the guys I want instead of the guys that happen to pass by and decide the eyelashes are pointing towards them. Plus, unlike Scarlett, I don’t risk losing my honour by showing interest in sex instead of being some porcelain Madonna, so there’s no need to cover up all interest in sex by weirdass hints until the guy actually makes a move. Seriously, you’d think these women Womanizer is talking about live around other men and women who’d lose all respect towards them if they showed they wanted to have sex with people.
LikeLike
“I’m blaming the women’s/men’s magazines. You know, the ones that are full of “how to get your guy/gal” advice that’s all extremely manipulative stuff that doesn’t work because if the reader actually got the guy/gal they’d stop buying the stupid magazines. I also blame the people over 16 who haven’t figured out that stuff is bullshit.”
– I think you are right! It’s fascinating to me that so many people take all that stuff seriously and actually collect all these “studies” proving their weird point of view. A very long time ago, I had a discussion on this very blog with an author of very popular dating books that dispensed this kind of advice. It was hilarious because her own personal life was quite unhappy. 🙂
LikeLike
So your claims are that:
– There’s women who overtly hit on and and make moves on men all over the place
– But we don’t see them because we don’t believe it hardly enough
– And we don’t get women making the first move on us, because we don’t see ourselves as deserving of it and we aren’t “good enough” to get hit on by these women who are all over the place, but none of us has ever seen in real life or in any research ever (only in blog comments)
So far sounds very new-agey woo-woo. Kind of like the secret “attract money into your life by just believing it”
One problem, I was raised being sold on the lie you’re trying to resell me (mom’s a feminist btw)
In fact, I lost my virginity very late in life PRECISELY because I was sold this story you two are trying to sell me. I spent my entire youth having NO success with women PRECISELY because I was brought up to NOT hit on women, to NOT make a move unless women throw themselves at me, to believe that if I only worked hard enough on improving myself, I would get to a point of development where women blatantly express interest in me. It never happened, even though I believed it as much as you do.
It was only after many years of celibacy following YOUR recommendations that I started questioning YOUR recommendations. I spent years constantly improving myself, and yet men far worse than me were getting laid left and right. I was told I just need to be good enough, and women would ask me out.
Many years of painful celibacy following that advice, constantly getting better and better, while complete losers were on their 35th girlfriend. I surpassed 99% of the male population in every way you could imagine, yet no women throwing themselves at me as promised. It was only when I questioned your advice and learned women don’t show overt interest that I started becoming romantically successful (I’ve had more partners than 99% of the male population, and many stalkers, am the crush of many etc etc).
LikeLike
“It was only after many years of celibacy following YOUR recommendations that I started questioning YOUR recommendations.”
– I’m already hiccuping with laughter. Please have mercy! 🙂 🙂 I couldn’t have possibly given you any recommendations many years ago. I don’t know who you are. So I’m not to blame for your virginity or celibacy. Do you realize that?
” It was only when I questioned your advice and learned women don’t show overt interest that I started becoming romantically successful (I’ve had more partners than 99% of the male population, and many stalkers, am the crush of many etc etc).”
– Given that I only offered this advice a few days ago, I have to say, you’ve managed a lot in these few days. 🙂 🙂 🙂
This is truly the best thread in a while.
LikeLike
By you I mean “you guys” and yes I am generalizing you as being part of a feminist-borg-like-collective, not an individual. Your advice means “your group’s advice” since you did not invent it Clarissa, subgroups of feminists have been giving this exact advice for decades, and men have been falling pray to your lies for decades. “your = you feminists”, not “your = you clarissa”.
We made this post specifically tackling this about 3 weeks back:
LikeLike
Well, it’s certainly reassuring to know that I personally am not to blame for your celibacy / virginity / etc. 🙂 🙂
You are a very funny guy. But it’s OK, quirkiness is an endearing characteristic.
LikeLike
Are you capable of ever replying with anything except snark, sarcasm, word-analysis or ad homs? Ever?
You still haven’t answered the point raised. What about the millions of boys who follow your advice and it doesn’t work?
What about the millions of boys who end up depressed and suicidal because they work as hard as they can at “being good” and no girls ask them out, and believing your claims they conclude “I must be flawed and broken and shitty, maybe I should kill myself? After all I am doing my best at being the best person possible and not a single girls has ever shown me overt interest, and yet criminals have girlfriends? WTF?”
LikeLike
“Are you capable of ever replying with anything except snark, sarcasm, word-analysis or ad homs? Ever?”
– To you, no. Because you have made it impossible to take you seriously.
“You still haven’t answered the point raised. What about the millions of boys who follow your advice and it doesn’t work?”
– They only exist in your head. And it’s precisely these generalizations about millions of boys and hundreds of identical conversations that make you worthless as a discussion partner.
“What about the millions of boys who end up depressed and suicidal because they work as hard as they can at “being good” and no girls ask them out,”
– Please try to concentrate. Do I really have to repeat for the fifteenth time that being a “good boy” is a diagnosis, not an attractive quality for sex. Nobody wants to have sex with “good boys.” The qualities that make you attractive are: a healthy sexuality and confidence.
“After all I am doing my best at being the best person possible and not a single girls has ever shown me overt interest, and yet criminals have girlfriends? WTF?””
– Nobody cares what kind of person you are. What are you, two years old? Enough with this childishness. Once again: sexual health and confidence. Your personal goodness, lack of crime record and basic goodness have nothing whatsoever to do with what we are discussing.
So if you listened to advice that you need to be a good boy to be laid, then yes, that was an enormous mistake. But don’t lay that at my door because I would never give such idiotic advice to anybody.
LikeLike
Fair enough. I’ll play along.
What is “healthy sexuality” and what is “confidence”, and how does one get “healthy sexuality and confidence” at something before having it?
So you have a boy that’s a virgin, how does he become confident that all women love him and “have healthy sexuality” that magically sends vibrations through the air that gets women to approach him, ask him out, pine him against a wall and ask him for sex?
Pray tell… In specific, actionable, not-vague steps.
LikeLike
Specifically, how does one get confident at something before ever having done it or experienced it?
(I’ll start with boys, because this is when sexuality starts)
– You say boys should never ever approach a girl or make a move unless she shows UNAMBIGIOUS and overt interest FIRST
– In order for boys to get girls showing them this OVERT interest and overt moves, these boys need to be confident at it
(So a boy who’s never kissed a girl should be confident about being a great kisser, and women will come out and kiss him first, just because he holds the belief)
Which part did I get wrong?
LikeLike
“So you have a boy that’s a virgin, how does he become confident that all women love him and “have healthy sexuality””
– Because he had a happy childhood and was brought to believe that the world belongs to him.
“So a boy who’s never kissed a girl should be confident about being a great kisser, and women will come out and kiss him first, just because he holds the belief”
– Finally! You are not completely hopeless, I see.
LikeLike
I apologize, I was mentally grouping you together with other feminists who give equally asinine magical thinking advice to boys.
Many of them say to boys “if you’re not getting asked out its because you’re not good enough” “if women aren’t showing you clear interest, you must be a bad boy who doesn’t respect women enough” etc etc…
Seeing you restrict it to just confidence and sexuality makes me respect you a lot more, my apologies once again.
However, my new question is in terms of your chicken & egg paradox.
Yes, I know men who are so sexually confident who get a lot clearer signals and a lot more overt signals from women (the signals still come in a mixed-signals package, but the signal to noise ratio is much better).
What all of these men have in common is that
-they first had sex with hundreds of women
– then they got the sexual confidence you speak of
– which caused more overtness in women
(still not 100% overtness as you claim, just the mixed signalling being less confusing)
These men had to first however experience tons of rejections (by making moves on ambigious signals) to get those first hundreds of lays under their belt. Only after a certain treshold did they get to the level of calibration and experience where they could clearly only approach 100% certainly interested women (due to better signals and more experience and calibration at reading signals).
You’re however putting the cart ahead of the horse. How does one get “sexual confidence” before having had lots of partners? Since one precludes the other in a logical a follows b sequence… Pray tell…
LikeLike
“Many of them say to boys “if you’re not getting asked out its because you’re not good enough” “if women aren’t showing you clear interest, you must be a bad boy who doesn’t respect women enough” etc etc…”
– Then go and talk to them and stop boring me.
“What all of these men have in common is that
-they first had sex with hundreds of women
– then they got the sexual confidence you speak of”
– You clearly have no idea what the word “confidence” even means. True confidence cannot in any way be influenced by such things.
“These men had to first however experience tons of rejections (by making moves on ambigious signals) to get those first hundreds of lays under their belt. Only after a certain treshold did they get to the level of calibration and experience where they could clearly only approach 100% certainly interested women (due to better signals and more experience and calibration at reading signals).”
– You are describing really sad, pathetic losers. The good news is that they only exist in your head.
” How does one get “sexual confidence” before having had lots of partners? ”
– Are you serious? 🙂 🙂 You are an adult and you really believe that you get confidence from interactions with other people??? I now see why you allow people to walk over you with those hundreds of neuritic conversations.
LikeLike
I think that’s true as well.
But I thought a model with overts and coverts would be more fun to write. 🙂
LikeLike
Well, yes. A small fraction of men are so attractive that women feel compelled to pursue them, risking rejection for a better chance at a relationship. But this is a minority, typically those with movie star looks and 6 feet heights. The rest have to actually, you know, flirt. It is (relatively) easier to pick up social skills than to join the genetically well-endowed elite.
LikeLike
“But this is a minority, typically those with movie star looks and 6 feet heights. ”
🙂 🙂 No, my friend, height and looks have nothing whatsoever to do with it. Genetics have nothing to do with it either.
LikeLike
Right. On planet Clarissa, presumably. On *this* planet looks do most certainly influence dating-outcomes significantly.
LikeLike
“On *this* planet looks do most certainly influence dating-outcomes significantly.”
🙂 🙂 You have got to realize how childish this sounds. Just talk to a few friends and ask them to describe what physical features they find attractive. You will discover within twenty minutes that everybody has a completely different opinion on what constitutes good looks. My sister, who is the person I’m the closest to on this planet, doesn’t get my male physical standard of beauty and I find hers to be bizarre. 🙂
And I’m not even talking about all those people who have convinced themselves that their type are skinny Asian women but who keep ending up with big blonde Scandinavians. (Real-life example) 🙂
LikeLike
This game of “women are not-so-interested by looks” is boring.
LikeLike
Of course, people are interested in looks. But what constitutes good looks is completely different for everybody. My friend adores her husband and thinks he is stunningly beautiful. To me, however, he is frankly ugly. There is no shared standard that would work for all people on this planet.
LikeLike
I don’t talk about standards, I talk about looks.
LikeLike
Fair enough; but even things like confidence etc aren’t evenly distributed. And to gain confidence in dating one must be successful at dating. Which means learning to decode signals. Once one becomes very confident (i.e. attractive) women will start throwing themselves at you – until then you have to work at it.
LikeLike
“And to gain confidence in dating one must be successful at dating. ”
– Please concentrate. This has alrady been explained several times. You are operating under a completely false assumption. Confidence has an internal locus of control. Is the vocabulary to complex for you?
LikeLike
Be careful Navin. Clarrisa asked me to permanently stop replying to her after I made the same point.
Refer to the exchanges me and her had above about confidence vs. external results. She believes confidence at things has absolutely no connection to actual experience and doing things above the age of 3.
What any 21st century therapist will do when you lack confidence at anything is to craft a practical plan of action steps as a way of getting confidence at it. For example the therapist will tell an SA patient to gradually engage in longer and longer conversations, to gradually get confident at starting conversations with peers. This is pretty much how any cognitive-behavioural strategy works. There’s a mix of inner and outter work, but the external actions are the key part.
Clarissa is basically all of cognitive-behavioural therapy (the primary and leading model today) is utterly wrong, because like y’know locus of control (a favorite buzzword of laymen who’s psychology knowledge comes from self-help books).
She claims you shouldn’t actually like you know, try to date girls (behavioural), but merely work on your inner-sexual-confidence and never ever actual do anything, and keep working on the inner part, until women come out of nowhere, start asking you out, kissing you and pinning you against walls.
Not only does she believe this, she believes it to the point of thinking that one not believing it is absurd. She even mocked the relationship between confidence and external results the way people mock flat-earthers.
Specifically, your ” Once one becomes very confident (i.e. attractive) women will start throwing themselves at you – until then you have to work at it.” line captures what I’ve witnessed too.
There does seem to be a spillover level after you’ve done a bootload of work on this area, where you get so much confidence from your results, so much experience and so much calibration (fine ability to read signals and subtly show women permission to initiate) that it ALMOST looks like women are throwing themselves at you.
Clarissa says that the confidence is entirely internal and you can just skip the stage of “bootloads of hard work in the real world” and arrive at the final stage. So you can just tell yourself to have the confidence of the 200-lays man, without ever leaving the house, and the moment you leave your house, women will throw themselves at you…
And yes, if you don’t believe this claim, you’re absurd, screwed up, messed up, neurotic and must be a 15-year old virgin.
LikeLike
OK, so no self-respect at all? You will keep debasing yourself even after you have been told you are not wanted? Begging for attention, demeaning yourself endlessly?
Come on, try to muster a few crumbs of self-respect and go away. Or will I have to kick you out? Are you that much of a sorry loser?
LikeLike
I was actually talking to Navin.
LikeLike
Take your Navin and buzz off my blog together, got it?
LikeLike
Some evidence: http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2012/05/29/what-is-feminine-hypergamy-noh/
LikeLike
““Have you ever done that to a man you haven’t had sex with yet?””
– Yes, absolutely. :))))))))))))) I second Stille when I say: be very careful before you generalize.
LikeLike
Three women out of 3.5 billion! It’s getting quite crowded in here 😛
LikeLike
Just give it some time, I’m sure we will find a few more. 🙂
But I’m sure we are about to hear that we are either liars or outliers. 🙂
LikeLike
At least 4! I know at least one…
LikeLike
My best friend from Argentina is #5. 🙂
LikeLike
Ah, David, but what if the woman you know is actually Clarissa’s best friend from Argentina? Let’s keep this to self-reports so as not to double-count people.
Clarissa: I think he left. Here be monsters and all that.
LikeLike
“Ah, David, but what if the woman you know is actually Clarissa’s best friend from Argentina? Let’s keep this to self-reports so as not to double-count people.”
– This is the best thread ever because I’m now weeping with laughter. 🙂 🙂
“I think he left. Here be monsters and all that.”
– They always come back. . . Even when there are overtly desiring monsters. 🙂 🙂
LikeLike
No, there’s not double-counting. A woman from Montreal is like that.
LikeLike
Well, my Argentinean friend does live in Montreal. . . 🙂
LikeLike
Passive women are generally not interesting, so…
LikeLike
Generally, yes. . . But our friend, the Womanizer, says he has found HUNDREDS and they all interest him. 🙂
This conversation reminded me of how once my colleagues back at McGill and I ordered some pizza, had some drinks, and were talking about life. Then a male colleague from Peru decided to share his bit of sexual wisdom.
“You have to recognize,” he said, “that women are passive both in sex and in life. So how can you expect any equality in terms of rights? In bed, for instance, women just lie there, they rarely even move at all.”
We all laughed so hard that the walls shook.
At the end of the collective laughing bout, the Peruvian colleague asked in a small, hopeful voice, “So. . . are you saying there are women who are not like that?”
We had to reassure him that there are a few women here and there who have been known to move and even make sounds in bed. 🙂 🙂
The really sad part was that the Peruvian colleague was 43 years old at that time and had an adult son.
For at least a year after that, people greeted this poor guy with an invariable, “So has she moved yet? Make sure she is still alive there, man!”
LikeLike
Good decision to publish that as a post here!
LikeLike
Please don’t misquote me.
What I’ve said is that I have had hundreds of female friends over the years and have never seen a single one of them ever make a single OVERT move on any man FIRST. I’ve spent years socializing in dozens of different social contexts, never to have ever witnessed women showing utter-unambigious interest to a man first (only ever in response to a man flirting first).
As an anthropologist, I’m very fascinated with human behaviour and have interviewed thousands of people over my life from all walks of life. But apparently you’re claiming I somehow “magically” always was somehow drawn to not interview those seemingly many women who make overt moves.
Because the only women I’ve ever seen to make the claim to make overt moves FIRST, are women on feminist blog comment sections, literally. Neither I, nor anyone I know has ever found these women in real life
LikeLike
“What I’ve said is that I have had hundreds of female friends over the years and have never seen a single one of them ever make a single OVERT move on any man FIRST.”
– Because no normal woman in her right mind would spend 3 minutes around you. As a result, all you meet are losers of the kind you have described.
“Neither I, nor anyone I know has ever found these women in real life”
– Because you and your friends are losers.
LikeLike
Or somehow I have a special magical radar and intuition to have only breached the subject and gotten into this topic with ONLY the women who are neurotic, manipulative and never make overt moves.
What you are saying plausible. I haven’t opened subjects topic with all of the thousands of people I’ve discussed subjects with, only some. It is plausible I telepathically sense which ones will confirm all of anthropology and all of social psychology and confirm (if women) that they never make overt moves, or (if men) that no woman has made an overt move on them and they have never seen any woman make an overt move on any man anywhere.
My bias is just that good. It’s all-powerful and works 100% of the time. Perhaps that movie “the secret’ and this whole “woo woo you create your reality with your beliefs and thoughts” was right? Your “recipe” seems to suggest so.
LikeLike
Clarissa,
Let me ask a direct question if I may…
You mentioned you initiated sex with your husband on the 2nd date…
Did you also ask him out on the first?
Did you pay for dinner or go dutch?
LikeLike
In the years we have been together, we have always had a separate budget. So yes, we split the bill for dinner that time and every other time since then. 🙂 It’s s system I highly recommend because in all these years we never had a single discussion, let alone a fight, about money.
The first date wasn’t really a date, so there was no real invitation. By first date, I mean the time we first saw each other at a Starbucks. As for the actual date, I invited him.
LikeLike
Also one thing mentioned upthread was “confidence and a healthy sexuality.”
For numerous reasons many find this extremely difficult-ie bullying in childhood, overly religous parents who say sex is dirty…
also, how is someone who is behind their peers supposed to develop this? By visit’s to prostitutes? By being extremely honest about their situation and risk “virgin shaming”? By getting really drunk and hoping it ends okay?
LikeLike
And how is this boy to develop this confidence if no girls ever show him interest? Feminists tell this boy:
– If girls don’t show overt interest in you, it’s because you are flawed (does hearing such a statement make the boy more or LESS confident?)
– And if being less confident makes it even less likely girls will show interest in him, how is he to ever develop confidence with girls?
It’s the trickiest catch-22 I’ve ever heard.
– You can only get with girls by being confident
– but to get girls you have to wait for them to show OVERT interest first
– but girls only show OVERT interest if you’re already confident with girls
– but to be confident with girls, you have to have gotten many positive results with girls (interest and getting together with girls)
Man that’s one screwed up catch-22 if I’ve ever seen one…
LikeLike
Confidence has an internal locus of control. If you need somehody’s interest to feel confident, that already means you have serious self-esteem issues. Leave aside your boring disquisitions on feminists and try to concentrate on the fact that every word you write produces the impression of coming from a very insecure, unhappy person. This is what makes you so unattractive. Forget about these imaginary millions of boys and thousands of feminists already. Grow up and confront your own issues.
LikeLike
You’re a philologist. I’m trained in social science with good solid training in psychology.
Concepts such as locus of control are part of my training, not yours.
Aside from calling me insecure, telling me to grow up and performing psychotherapy over a comments section you still haven’t produced a list of SPECIFICS for your claim.
You claim boys will get approached by girls if they are merely confident enough of it
How do these boys get this confidence specifically? List specific action steps that a boy can perform, that once performed gives this boy “a healthy sexuality” that makes girls approach him, ask him out and pine him against a wall (but not involving looks or status).
I promise not to debate you on your list, as long as you give a list of *specifics*, actual action steps.
LikeLike
“but to be confident with girls, you have to have gotten many positive results with girls (interest and getting together with girls)”
– This is your own completely bizarre idea. Self-esteem does not depend on absolutely any external stimuli you get after the age of 3. Unless you go into intense psychotherapy. So these “positive results” in no way create confidence. It’s the other way round: first you have high self-esteem and confidence that arise form very early childhood experiences and then you grow up and find that life is easy and everybody likes you. Got it?
LikeLike
Didn’t you say confidence? Now you’re talking about self-esteem? Was that a typo, because I assume you’re educated enough to not think that self-esteem is the same as confidence?
Mind you, you’re outside your field of training. Though not even dictionaries define self-esteem and confidence as synonyms. They’re not. Completely different concepts.
LikeLike
I will repeat for the especially gifted: Neither confidence nor self-esteem depend on absolutely any external stimuli you get after the age of 3. Is it any clearer now?
LikeLike
It’s also utterly false.
The feedback loop between external results and confidence is well-established.
This is psychology 101.
The views you are expressing are from self-help pop-psychology and things like “the secret”, “law of attraction” and other such self-help junk.
LikeLike
“The feedback loop between external results and confidence is well-established.”
– Buddy, you’ve got to be some sad, deluded 15-year-old virgin. I refuse to believe that an adult can write the kind of crap you have regaled us with today.
I thank you for the entertainment you have provided but it’s time for you to leave. Good-bye now.
LikeLike
Wikipedia:
– Confidence is generally described as a state of being certain either that a hypothesis or prediction is correct or that a chosen course of action is the best or most effective.
– Self-esteem is a term used in psychology to reflect a person’s overall emotional evaluation of his or her own worth.
So according to you, Jane’s confidence in winning a chess competition is completely unrelated to any actual results in any chess competitions she’s entered after the age of 3?
I believe the term for that is delusion, not confidence.
LikeLike
When you are asked to go away, a self-respecting person does that. Stop humiliating yourself, you have done enough of that already. Just go away now.
LikeLike
Let’s look at what Clarissa got right (but exaggerates wildly)
– If you are a sexually confident man, you will get far more clear signals from women (clarissa exaggerates that women will outright proposition you first without you every showing any interest first)
It is true that the more sexual experience you get, the less games women play around you, and the more likely you are to see overt moves. The signals are less mixed. Women can generally tell from either behaviour or reputation which guy is more sexually experienced and are more likely to be more initiative around such a man. But still, nowhere near the asinine heights Clarissa takes it where you don’t have to even flirt or show any interest or make any move and the women outright approach you, ask you out, and pine you against a wall… That’s asinine.
The point is this is circular logic
How does one become confident with no history of success? It is theoretically possible conmen and socipaths can succesfully act confident at something without proof (conmen = confidence men).
The circularity here is mindblowing:
– in order to get laid you have to wait for women to make moves first
– in order to have women make moves first you must be sexually confident
– in order to have sexual confidence you need to have gotten laid first
– in order to get laid you have to wait for women to make moves first
and so and on it goes… Unless you find a way of way of breaking into the circle by convincing yourself you are super-desirable to women, with absolutely no previous real-world proof of such a thing… sociopaths are good at such feats… not most normal people.
LikeLike
It is true that the more sexual experience you get, the less games women play around you, and the more likely you are to see overt moves.(womanizer)
Nope, same games, you just get better at playing. Kind of like practicing any sport. 😉
LikeLike
“For numerous reasons many find this extremely difficult-ie bullying in childhood, overly religous parents who say sex is dirty…”
– And here we finally have somebody who explains to us clearly and intelligently where such a lack of confidence might come from. Prostitutes are more likely to mess one up even further in this sense. I suggest beginning to work on one’s confidence and on developing a healthy body image in ways I outlined on this blog. This is just the beginning but these issues are very solvable. There are sexolgists, too, who are very well-trained to solve such problems.
LikeLike
Clarissa,
Confidence has been something that is very frustrating for me for many reasons…
There are eve psych types who say it is genetic. IE some people naturally have more as some naturally have more optimism.
I feel like success breeds confidence, IE if you start 4 successful businesses, on your 5th try with just a little start-up capitol you will be very confident of success…
There is the “fake-it-to-make-it” bravado that anyone who has worked in a boiler-room will feel…
and then there are sociopaths who are described as glib and confident without the success to back it up.
So, it is very frustrating when people talk about confidence, there have been a few discussions at Feminist Critics about it…
If someone tells me I am physically weak, I can join a gym should I wish to become strong. If I can’t afford a gym, I can do push ups and sit ups. I might not become a strong man but after time and effort, I will have measurable increase in strength…
Still, when I read about confidence-it’s frustrating. It often feels like a very wealthy person telling a poor person to “pull themselves up by the bootstraps.”
Also, health sexuality, that can mean many things depending on whom you ask.
Some might say “virile,” some might say “non-judgemental,” some might say “open minded.” Or there might be the buzzword “sex positive.” I only ask because it can be interpretted many ways…
LikeLike
“I feel like success breeds confidence,”
– If only it were true. But no, it’s the other way round. Confidence breeds success.
“Some might say “virile,” some might say “non-judgemental,” some might say “open minded.” Or there might be the buzzword “sex positive.” I only ask because it can be interpretted many ways…”
– I’m not American, so when I say ‘sex”, I don’t mean personality. I mean sex. A sexually healthy person gives off a multitude of physiological signs that signals this health to others. This has nothing whatsoever to do with one’s personality, judgmentalism or open-mindedness. This is physiological. Healthy sexuality is like healthy lungs or healthy joints. It’s not related to personal qualities.
“If someone tells me I am physically weak, I can join a gym should I wish to become strong. If I can’t afford a gym, I can do push ups and sit ups. I might not become a strong man but after time and effort, I will have measurable increase in strength…”
– But if your image of yourself is that you are weak and ugly, not even the best musculature in the world will make you see yourself differently. I have a friend who is a stunning beauty. A natural blonde, modelesque body, enormous blue eyes. But she often can’t make herself leave the house because she is convinced she is ugly to the point of disfigurement. And I know a man who would get very upset every time I told him he was beautiful because he thought I was making fun of him. The guy was objectively physically stunning. But there was nothing anybody can do to make him see he was not ugly. And if you met the parents of both these people, you would really understand why they are this way.:-( 😦
LikeLike
– If only it were true. But no, it’s the other way round. Confidence breeds success.(Clarissa)
In some areas, absolutely not true. I know many a great fighter that was great because they feared getting hurt or losing. They attempted to pummel their opponents to make sure it didn’t happen(getting hurt). Many times they were very successful. Rarely was it born of confidence.
LikeLike
so when you mean healthy sexually, you are talking about “reproductive health”/”fecundity”?
LikeLike
I’m talking about one’s capacity to have sex, enjoy it and bring a sex act to a culmination. Unfortunately, a huge number of people suffers from anorgasmy. And this is both men and women in equal proportions. They either lose arousal in the midst of the process or don’t lose arousal but can’t culminate. Both disorders are very frequent.
The animal part of us knows this about people we meet very early in the encounter. There are many signs they send off that inform us of this. This is why these mysterious cases of short, fat, bow-legged people with crowds of partners happen. The partners read the signals and know this will be an amazing lay.
Of course, such people can be completely infertile, so it’s not about that at all.
LikeLike
then, according to this, younger men would be the most desirable partners…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anorgasmia
“Anorgasmia is far more common in females than in males and is especially rare in younger men.”
LikeLike
This is more complicated than that because there is also the capacity to satisfy sexually, etc.
LikeLike
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/margaret-paul-phd/relationship-help_b_3311816.html
LikeLike
Clarissa,
One thing I wanted to ask is why there is so much talk about Nice Guys ™ but not Nice Girls ™ in feminist circles? Manboobz and Amanda Marcotte among others have written quite a bit on this. (I have my theory, which I can share if people want to hear it.)
LikeLike
Please share the theory, I’m very interested.
My own explanation is that the phenomenon of Nice Girls definitely does exist. It doesn’t have the same name but who hasn’t met such women? I think I had a post about it somewhere but it was a while ago. I’ll try to find it. I am convinced that Nice Guy / Nice Gal phenomenon is not in the least a gender issue.
I also have to note that the instances when I agree with Amanda Marcotte on anything are few and far between. 🙂
LikeLike
my theory is this…
someone like Marcotte purports to be about equality.
then she berates a male who uses a passive dating strategy. The so called Nice Guy hangs around the girl he likes, does nice things for her. He hopes she will see how great he is and develop attraction.
He uses a strategy that is “socially acceptable” for a woman to use but not a man. If she was a “traditionalist” who said that men and women are inherently different, then there are no mental gymnastics. A traditionalist could say that the Nice Guy should “man up” and if he can’t express his interest, he shouldn’t get the chance to spread his genes. However, it causes cognitive dissonance for a feminist who says that “men and women are the same.” She is expecting a man to stay in a traditional gender role yet demanding that women have more freedom in their roles.
Now I wrote about that here and my tone is pretty aggressive but I had read many “snarky” articles by Manboobz and Marcotte:
also you may find the link to the Clarisse Thorn article interesting, she gives a non answer in my opinion…
LikeLike
I have to say, I never thought about it this way but what you are saying makes a lot of sense. A LOT of sense. This especially: “But by this metric wouldn’t (het cis) women hitting on (het cis) men be one of the most feminist things they could do? How come they aren’t lining up for that role in droves?”
In my opinion, the greatest challenge of feminism today is precisely the need to move towards assuming all of the (often unpleasant and onerous) responsibilities that come with equal rights. Stop expecting men to take initiative both in dating and everywhere else, stop expecting men to provide, start considering equal contribution to the shared budget if you want an equal division of household chores, stop treating children as your property if you want shared parental duties, and so on and so forth. This is precisely the main obstacle on the way of feminism today, as I see it: we either let go of all traditional roles or of none of them. The kind of feminism that advocates that women should have a choice of what role to take while not leaving such a choice to men is repulsive to me.
LikeLike
I’m going to drop in a controversial ad for axe along with a parody:
After reading my analysis, you may determine that I infact live in a parallel universe different from everyone else, here goes…
Now, some will say this is sexist, perhaps because of the women in bikini’s. I live near the beach so the sight of a woman in a bikini is business as usual. Also, I’ll note that he is topless, the women appear to be wearing tops (there were a few out of focus that may not)–I don’t know if there is much to read into that, probably just what the advertisers thought the censors would allow. So male toplessness vs. female toplessness may show a double standard on a cultural level. Now, I do think there is a “pornographic” element. This is why I think some men can relate to the fantasy. It is flipping the “traditional” gender script where many men feel the pressure of the pursuer. This man is being pursued aggressively by hundreds (if not thousands of women.) He is in the role of the selector. Obviously by the oblivious smile on his face, he feels no threat with these women with maddened looks on their face running towards him.
So why is this powerful/offensive? I don’t think the typical “objectification” works. This isn’t an ad where they just focus on one or two “Hawaiian Tropic” model’s bodies and present her as sexy. It shows the disposability of the pursuer role. A few fall , this seems to show a relentless pursuit where they worry not of injury. It also shows athleticism and ferociousness but I don’t think anyone would label these women as “empowered.” Most of the women will not succeed–perhaps they get to try this event many more times or perhaps it is a once in a lifetime event-we can only speculate. Now I realize this analysis is not how a feminist or even most MRA’s would see this…
Obviously the parody afterwords shows that buying axe to make yourself irresistible is a foolish idea contrived by advertisers…
What do you think?
LikeLike
“So male toplessness vs. female toplessness may show a double standard on a cultural level.”
– You sound like a radical feminist. 🙂
” It shows the disposability of the pursuer role. A few fall , this seems to show a relentless pursuit where they worry not of injury. It also shows athleticism and ferociousness but I don’t think anyone would label these women as “empowered.” Most of the women will not succeed–perhaps they get to try this event many more times or perhaps it is a once in a lifetime event-we can only speculate.”
– Bravo! I think this is definitely a very feminist analysis if we take my kind of feminism as a model. The problem is, so much of what is sold very vocally as feminism on this continent is really sad garbage. Your analysis, however, is a lot closer to what I would love to see on places like Feministe, etc. Sadly, what I do find there is often very different.
LikeLike
Hi Clarissa, reading your post here and thinking about my life so far, I think that I have been inadvertently following your advice for the most part. As I am a shy man I rarely dare to “pursue” a woman who hasn’t indicated interest clearly. But the fact is, to this day I have never had a romantic relationship with anyone, and no women have ever indicated their romantic interest with me in an open manner. Clearly this mean that your advice is pretty wrong. I think if I had been more aggressive, I would have at least some experiences. What do you have to say to that?
LikeLike
I can only repeat for a gazillionth time that the only way to make yourself attractive to people is by becoming confident and sexually healthy. If nobody wants you, then you are neither. Feel free to blame me for that, of course. Alternatively, you could grow up and stop being such a whiny baby already. Just from the tone of your infantile, whiny comment it is clear why nobody would ever have sex with you.
LikeLike
Yeah, people reaaly should keep their inner monologues to themselves. Work out a bit, get in shape, get some hobbies (not the kind involving spending time indoors), a dog and go out.
LikeLike
// Work out a bit, get in shape, get some hobbies (not the kind involving spending time indoors), a dog and go out.
I don’t think Clarissa will like “a dog” part. 🙂
Besides, you still can’t take a dog to go out to a bar, where some singles are, right? Though, if you meet another log-lover, you can bond over walking your dogs.
LikeLike
Hey, as long as they do it far away from me and I don’t get blamed for anything, I’m all good. 🙂
I find it extremely weird that people would blame their poor personal lives on my “advice.” I looked up that guy’s IP and he is in Quebec. There is a serious problem in Quebec with a very noticeable shortage of single women. All bars and cafes are filled with crowds of men, hoping to meet somebody. It would make a lot more sense for this commenter to blame his problems on that rather than on me.
LikeLike
I’m not blaming you personally for my lack of success with women, Clarissa. Maybe I didn’t express myself properly. I just meant to point out how it’s possible that your advice isn’t effective. Your reply here just makes me more confused. What does it mean to become “sexually confident”? You just advised to not make a move if the woman isn’t showing signs of clear attraction. That’s more of sexual prudence and cautiousness rather than confidence. How can I dare to be confident if by doing so I am knowingly risking the possibility that expressing my sexuality confidently might lead to the woman feeling “creeped out”? This seems contradictory.
LikeLike
“How can I dare to be confident if by doing so I am knowingly risking the possibility that expressing my sexuality confidently might lead to the woman feeling “creeped out”?”
– Can you try reading the thread before polluting it uselessly? It has been explained 300 times that a healthy sexuality expresses itself by a multitude of little signs that we do not perceive consciously. You don’t need to do anything to demonstrate sexual health. It is either there or not and people perceive it (or lack thereof) irrespective of what you say or do. Silly shows you put on for others do creep people out because they are useless and ridiculous.
You question demonstrates that you understanding of human sexuality is non-existent.
Are there no sexologists where you live to help you deal with these issues?
LikeLike
@physphilmusic
Don’t sweat it too much man. Remember, like most of us, it takes time and trial and error. Afterall, do you think Clarissa got it right the first time. For that matter, it may have taken her years to discover the stuff she so confidently espouses now. Here is one piece of advice when it comes to the “sexual confidence” stuff. When you come across as not desperately wanting or needing to get laid chances are you probably will present as confident.
LikeLike
“When you come across as not desperately wanting or needing to get laid chances are you probably will present as confident.”
– That’s exactly what I’ve been trying to get people to see with this post! Stop analyzing glances, stop allowing people to insult you with condescending or neurotic outbursts, respect yourself, don’t be desperate or groveling, and things will get better.
LikeLike
Having a dog is a good excuse to get out of your home, have a polite conversation with other dog owners and socialize a bit. I have a lot of free space nearby, so in my case it might be a little bit different.
Treat it as a start. Oh, and leash your dog properly until it can behave (no jumping on people etc.).
LikeLike
Well I have an experiment which I think with high likelihood will prove Clarissa completely and absolutely WRONG. But we will see. I was on the GO bus and observed a woman in front of me who glanced at a guy who happened to sit down not far from her. He looked back at her several times. She didn’t look back and was preoccupied with something else. My strong impression is that this was all an act to conceal her interest. We reached her stop and she got up to leave. As she past by him she bumped into him, he said sorry and she laughed flirtatiously a little and said that’s ok. Then she left. I told him as soon as she left “You should ask her out she is clearly in to you”. He said: “ya I think she was trying to flirt with me. I will try to talk to her next time I see her”. Yep he thought she was trying to flirt with him based on a 5 second interaction where she briefly laughed.
Read the above carefully. Based on my verbal description there is no way in hell you could possibly believe I could know she was in to him or even that he was in to her. But I already got one right. He was in to her. This was based on my reading of their body language and what she and he was doing. Note based on Clarissa’s bullshit posting I shouldn’t have even known he was in to her. After all he said nothing. BUT I KNEW when I saw him glace back repeatedly in her direction. And soon I will know whether she is in to him. I am strongly confident I am right about her too. This is based on my reading of body language and indirect signals on a single bus ride where I saw two strangers on a bus. How the fuck could I predict that some man was interested in some woman on a bus. That prediction was highly unlikely. If I get the second right it proves Clarissa’s is completely wrong about how desire is conveyed among the vast majority of the human population.
I am going to sit down right beside her next time I see her and ask her point blank whether she likes him.
LikeLike
Buddy, stop obsessing about this guy and just ask him out already. Maybe he likes you too.
By the way, your avatar screams your secret to the skies. 🙂
LikeLike
Who said it was a secret 🙂
LikeLike
You, doofus. Just ask for the guy’s number already and stop trying to pass yourself off as some authority on women.
LikeLike