Oh, God! Did you see this:
Recent events, including my breakdown and hospitalization and revelation of multiple affairs (for the record, none with students, and including more woman than Christina) have revealed me to be broken, a fraud.
I am not who I claimed to be, not who I tried to be. I need to work on getting sober again, seeing if my marriage can be repaired, and staying alive for my beautiful precious children. That’s the real truth. I am not well but I will be. I am on heavy meds, including (ironically) Klonopin, the very drug that is mentioned in the story below. I am certainly not fit for a public role.
Poor Hugo Schwyzer! Yes, he was often annoying, and he has been obnoxious to me personally, so I probably have more reasons to dislike him than you do. However, when the crowd of holier-than-though bullies started persecuting him, I felt horrible for the guy. It was especially shocking to see how the pseudo-feminists who bullied him slipped into the rhetoric of religious fanaticism to aid them in their efforts.
Now the guy has suffered a breakdown and the self-righteous are placing bets on whether he will kill himself. My disgust with these freaks knows no bounds. Bullying people with mental illness is just wrong. Bullying anybody is wrong. We can disagree with what Schwyzer had to say when he was still writing, but kicking a person who is down is just low.
There are many reasons to dislike Hugo, but I want to point out one of the equally many reasons to like him. Here is his last statement in the most recent interview he gave:
I wish Hugo Schwyzer a safe and prompt recovery. I also wish him safety from bullies both in RL and online.
Clarissa's Blog 
I used to read his blog, but after a while found the topics repetitive and quit. Does he mean multiple affairs *after* having his children with his current wife? The one egotistical lesson I see reaffirmed here is “never date people with history of addictions, cheating or whatever else that will be a dealbreaker for one, no matter how much they swear they have changed.” Too cynical or realistic?
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Yes, he has been having affairs recently.
It was obvious this was hoping to happen because of how much he wrote of his efforts to stay faithful. The moment this becomes an effort, you are doomed to failure.
Why he can’t accept he isn’t monogamous is a mystery.
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// Why he can’t accept he isn’t monogamous is a mystery.
(Usual understanding of) Christianity prohibits that, as does the mainstream society.
So, what is it? Not being monogamous or not loving his wife?
I disagree with “not love –> cheating”. It can also lead to honest conversation/s, divorce or other arrangement/s, an open relationship if one isn’t monogamous, etc. If a person cheated in the past on X women, I won’t think myself Superwoman with the power of evoking True Love Without Cheating, but would be quite sure he’ll cheat on me too. And a person with a history of addiction is much more likely to return to it than somebody without such history.
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True.
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What I want to know is how he gets all the women.
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And by the way, this lesson you quote is no good. 🙂
Hugo didn’t cheat because of his past but because he didn’t love his wife, that’s all. He could have been a virgin when he met her, and things would have gone the same way.
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“Hugo didn’t cheat because of his past but because he didn’t love his wife”
If you ever become a marriage counsellor then I’m getting a degree in divorce law and setting up shop on the sidewalk outside your office.
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You should feel free to define love in your own way and I will define it in my own way. I’ve been reading his outpourings about his wife for a while. His main feeling for her was fear. It was obvious this whole thing was doomed.
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I read the post you linked to. So very very sad. I don’t really have much of an opinion on HS. I never really followed him or his writings. But he is clearly in a great deal of pain and has been for a long time. And the comments to his sad story made me sick. What is wrong with people? That sort of cruelty really turns my stomach. I hope he can find some recovery and peace.
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I disagree with much of his writing but I don’t want him to suffer or be sick. What’s wrong with people that they can remain smug and cold in the face of such obvious suffering?
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I wager that he has suffered far less than the people he has been exploiting. And he still gets to be the center of attention while they nurse their wounds in anonymity.
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That’s it. You have to love guys and be on their side. Guys have a god given right to do what they want and then be forgiven, because darn it, god is good and forgiving. But if you’re a woman, don’t get out of line, because you will get no sympathy. You’ll just be condemned for the whore you are, neglecting your kids, taking drugs, screwing around.
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Schwyzer is certainly not loved and forgiven – not by the circles in which he was running. Nor did I see people who weren’t Clarissa offering him sympathy.
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Well, I know very little about him or his circles, but I’m glad he’s not getting much sympathy. He just sounds like a big noise troublemaker to me.
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The guy was very unpleasant to me personally, so I have reasons to dislike him. However, this horrible mobbing that he has been subjected to just isn’t right.
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You probably haven’t been following the story because not only hasn’t Hugo been getting any sympathy, he has been subjected to such horrifying bullying – including death threats – that his career is in shambles and he is on the psych ward.
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Is his university career in shambles? Has he been fired? Has his university taken *any* steps against him?
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He has tenure. But he’s been barred from teaching the courses he’s developed and there is a lot of unpleasantness. There is a link to articles about that somewhere on his blog.
This is California, so the college can find a way to get rid of him if it wants even in spite of tenure.
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But if you’re a woman, don’t get out of line, because you will get no sympathy(Hattie)
Umm, I think you may have missed the whole Tiger Woods thingie. That man didn’t quite get a shit load of sympathy.
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“You have to love guys and be on their side. Guys have a god given right to do what they want and then be forgiven, because darn it, god is good and forgiving. But if you’re a woman, don’t get out of line, because you will get no sympathy. You’ll just be condemned for the whore you are, neglecting your kids, taking drugs, screwing around.”
Well like Stille commented above, people aren’t being “loving or forgiving” to HS. The comments on his very sad post were filled with vitriol and bile; and these comments came from strangers who have never even met the man. If HS’s wife wants to be angry at him, that’s between them. But why are anonymous commenters so rabidly angry at a stranger for having marital problems and addiction issues? The internet can be a very strange place sometimes,
Re what Hattie sees as a gender issue…….Personally, I wouldn’t condemn anybody–man or woman– for having mental health or addiction issues. And I am certainly not presumptuous enough to think it’s my place to forgive someone who has done me no wrong. Overall, when a fellow human is in obvious pain and suffering mental anguish, I think the kind and compassionate thing to do is to wish him/her well and avoid criticizing. (And I’m not religious at all. It’s just how I think people should act.)
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I’ve had some very angry exchanges with Hugo and I will happily have more angry exchanges with him but only after he is healthy and not bullied by a crowd.
It is simply wrong to bully a person like this, with the support of a huge group of people. Yes, he is a very imperfect human being, but so am I. And it’s not my place to punish him when he is in such a bad shape.
As for his gender, I want to remind everybody that I wrote posts in defense of Sarah Palin whose politics I detest when I discovered a movement that prompted the Babygate conspiracy.
I don’t care what a person’s gender is: If they are bullied by a crowd, I’m not joining.
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Well, I see what people are driving at here. I know someone who was mobbed this way on the Internet for saying some of her old friends were assholes, and she left Facebook and Twitter as a result of the harsh feedback she got.
A lot of this comes from not taking oneself, one’s life and the internet seriously enough. It’s all important and deserves proper attention. Your personal life, your pursuits, your cyberidentity all need consideration, not fooling around, doing any old thing, considering this and that that you do to be “outlets.” You can’t get away with it. No one likes to grow up, of course, but the time has come.
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Yes, he has been careless and very arrogant online, that’s true. But this is a high price to pay.
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// But he’s been barred from teaching the courses he’s developed and there is a lot of unpleasantness
I checked and it’s only one course, called “Navigating Pornography.” With the prissy culture, had you (without Hugo’s personal past and present problems) tried to teach it, you could have been barred too. It doesn’t sound like his personal life was the reason for that at all:
Professor Hugo Schwyzer has offered his Humanities 3 class, which he called “Navigating Pornography,” twice at PCC, but this spring the class received backlash from the college and the community after media reports of a guest lecture by porn star James Deen that Schwyzer tried to open up to the public.
Schwyzer said the pressure from PCC as well as online hatred he receives daily on social media because of his other writings on gender issues, have led him to the decision to no longer teach the class. That and an extramarital affair led him to take a step back and focus on his personal life, he said.
Also, the college went a long way towards him:
During his first few years as a professor at PCC, he also admittedly had sexual relationships with a number of his female students, but the college allowed him to remain as a teacher and asked him to author the college’s current policy that bans professor-student relationships.
He said PCC administrators were upset that he chose to talk about his past so publicly and he’d heard rumors on campus that the college was searching for a way to eliminate his porn class, which they also refused to call “Navigating Pornography.”
PCC administrators have a legitimate reason to be upset: they have closed eyes on his *breaking university laws,* and he chose to be as public about it as he could have been.
http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/news/ci_23768208/pasadena-city-colleges-porn-professor-will-no-longer?source=rss_viewed
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The guy’s academic career is pretty much over now, and I’m sure he realizes it.
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A serious question: is academia the kind of place, in which no matter *what* one writes, one has no career (not getting published?) because of a story about private life?
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He’s attracted a lot of notoriety to himself, and now his college has obviously turned against him.
I once was at a talk by an academic who became a pariah after writing a best seller. People simply shunned him without giving any reason. It bothered them that he made all this money, and he was branded a lightweight and anti-intellectual.
Attracting attention is not something you want to do as an academic.
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He always struck me as a nasty piece of work and a fraud so I’m not surprised at his downfall.
I’m not dancing around the fire in happiness about it but that’s about the extent of my sympathy.
In other news, is that stupid Swedish word ‘mobbing’ finally catching on with native speakers? I detest it and refuse to use it myself (for one thing all the bilabials means it sounds about as threatening as an angry guinea pig).
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I don’t know, I haven’t heard anybody using it. I think it’s just me.
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I began reading “HUGO SCHWYZER AND THE CONSUMPTION OF REDEMPTION NARRATIVES” (via Feministing)
http://diannaeanderson.net/blog/2013/8/hugo-schwyzer-and-the-consumption-of-redemption
QUOTE
Then there was his behavior in reaction to the boycott. On Twitter, feminists had to develop pseudonyms when they discussed his work, because otherwise he would search them out and either respond or start tracking their tweets – especially if they were negative. When a woman of color – popular blogger Flavia Dzodan – called him out on his abusive past, he went through back channels to try and get her fired. He crossed boundaries in small, subtle ways – just enough for plausible deniability, but also just enough that the people he was targeting knew he was keeping an eye on them (in one example, he “favorited” a tweet from a friend of mine that was discussing how he triggered her).
So, finally, this week, apparently the pushback became “too much.” He decided to leave the Internet – not before, however, opening up about it to a sympathetic reporter at NY Magazine. And what he had to say in this interview is particularly relevant to the redemption narrative that so many people – including the editors at the Christian pop culture “progressive” magazine Relevant – bought hook, line, and sinker.
He had an affair, he confesses, giving just enough detail about the woman that people curious enough could probably figure out who it was, but does so under the guise of “protecting her.”
…
He seems overly concerned with how an affair (update: multiple affairs) goes against his image, his narrative of redemption. He’d built a consumerist brand, marketed his name and his writing under the guise of being “redeemed,” so to have an affair was to deny that narrative. Notice that he doesn’t seem to be regretting the affair because of the hurt it did to his wife and children, or even because it’s a morally repugnant thing to do. He regrets it because it was “off brand” and doesn’t fit in with the neat and tidy narrative of redemption he’s staked his reputation on.
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This is what I’m talking about. The tone of the post makes me wonder why its author is not sharing the psych ward with Hugo. This is obviously a very unstable person.
The tragedy is that all these “feminists” who are in such fits over Hugo obviously suffer from a massive projection of their issues with some man or men they know on person onto him. They confuse personal psychiatric diagnoses with political activism. And since their shrieks are so loud, people think that feminism is all about unhinged, diseased women who hate all men for no specific reason.
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An notice once again the religious vocabulary. An affair is “morally repugnant.” It is priceless how these pseudo feminists betray who they really are.
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This is a blog sub-titled “Faith and Feminism,” and Hugo says he is a Christian himself and has always used the religious terms of redemption, Christ, etc. So I am A-OK with the use of the religious vocabulary in this specific situation.
If somebody says “I am Christian and here is my redemption story” to reading public, does everything to attract the maximum attention and does succeed, this public can choose whether to believe or not and express their opinions on their blogs.
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If you don’t think that sex lives of others are “morally repugnant”, it will not occur to you to say so whether you discuss Christians or not.
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From what I’ve read today, he does seem to be quite the asshole – while he makes quite a show of not naming either the woman he had an affair with or the woman he says he tried to kill, he gives enough details for determined people to be able to find out who they are (and, indeed, the woman he had an affair with was already identified and had some rather sensitive details of her life exposed as a result of this mess), which seems to rather defeat the point. Also, trying to get people fired sucks. However, just because Schwyzer is an asshole doesn’t mean the hating crowd aren’t assholes as well, and I deplore the lowering of the level of discourse to the point where one is assumed to have completely subsumed one’s opinions about this situation to the opinions of whatever members of this discussion one may feel sorry for. A lot of the arguments also seem to be about whether or not Hugo can represent feminism – most of it typical identity posturing. I’m sure there’s valid criticism of Schwyzer’s ideas (as opposed to his person) floating around but that’s not what’s getting linked in the parts of the internet I regularly keep an eye on, and I don’t feel like looking for any since I find him quite the boring writer so I’d rather not read him just for the sake of figuring out where he’s wrong. I hope he gets better soon, since nobody deserves that sort of suffering.
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// I once was at a talk by an academic who became a pariah after writing a best seller. People simply shunned him without giving any reason. It bothered them that he made all this money, and he was branded a lightweight and anti-intellectual.
If he made sufficiently much money, they are the losing side. He can still continue doing the beloved research AND enjoy the money. And probably write another best seller to feel even more prepared for old age. 🙂
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People who go into academia don’t have money on the list of their priorities.
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What academics live for is the name. It’s a harmless form of narcissism, really. We want our name to be recognized and for people to go, “Is that the Clarissa who wrote the seminal volume on the Civil War? Man, I assign it in my classes.” We dream about getting our own panel at the MLa, getting published in PMLA, getting a scholarly volume published in our honor.
There is no money that can buy this. Which is one of the reasons I love this career.
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May be you don’t (up to a degree, would you stay in a minimum wage job?), but since the person decided to write the best seller, instead of dedicating all this free time spent in writing to research, he may has considered the money aspect too. 🙂
And not having money on the list of their priorities doesn’t go well with shunning this person out of jealousy. 🙂
As if every skill is less marketable (in terms of money) in academia than outside it, especially if we talk about literature, history, philosophy, etc. People with a given inborn tendencied and a given set of skills at the time of making the choice of career may see academia as good in economic terms too.
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I’m just trying to explain what I mean when I say that Hugo’s academic career is over.
There are so many male academics who harass colleagues and students sexually, yet you never hear a peep on the subject from these pseudo feminists. Harold Bloom has had several generations of students accuse him of harassment. Does anybody care? Not in the least. But everybody is in a tizzy over Hugo cheating on his wife. And you know why? Bloom is old and ugly while Hugo is youngish and cute compared to him.
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“People who go into academia don’t have money on the list of their priorities”
From my time as a student representative at faculty meetings….. HA HA HA HA AH AHA HA HA HA HAA HA HCHKKKK K (coughing, choking, turning blue, drinking a glass of water, sitting down with my head between my knees)…. Hooo….. Anyway, nothing, but nothing brought the whole room alive (and the daggers flying) like the mention of salaries (and other monetary goodies). Granted this was a slightly exceptional case with a weird, atypical dual salary structure (where most longer term tenured faculty got significantly less than newer hires) but it was eye opening.
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The time investment we make into getting all the degrees is completely disproportionate to the financial return. I made more as a 20-year-old in Ukraine that I make as a professor in the US. And that was a very conscious choice.
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Moron, I didn’t say that you were unhinged. Just that that’s how you’re coming off. Which you are. I can only read your words and your words are…special. To say the least.
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OK, seeing as you cannot control yourself and conduct a civilized discussion, I am forced to ban you.
Just remember that getting so emotional about the sex lives of others is not healthy. Please see a sexologist soon. Good luck!
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// If you don’t think that sex lives of others are “morally repugnant”
Is it problematic to find cheating or f.e. abuse “morally repugnant”? Especially when a person tries to make a career by talking about it.
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If you are a religious fanatic, then policing sex lives of others comes naturally. However, if you are a progressively minded person, you tend to believe that it isn’t your business to pass moral judgment on consensual sexual activities of adults.
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Don’t you love judging people and claim it’s your right to do so? Why is it wrong to judge cheating as wrong? Btw, cheating is not consensual from the position of the not-cheating partner, who can get STDs later.
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Sex lives of others belong to them. The need to police those sex lives betrays nothing but the intense unhappiness of one’s own sex life. And the word “repugnance” with its connotation of disgust is evidence of a very uneasy approach to sexuality that one tries to hide from oneself behind talk of morality.
Any desire to police the consensual sex acts of adults – especially adults you don’t even know – should prompt a visit to a sexologist.
The only healthy approach is to keep our morality off the bodies of other people.
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I don’t understand why the author of that blog is a “religious fanatic” just because she thinks that cheating on your spouse is wrong. Plenty of people who hold absolutely no religious beliefs whatsoever (including myself) also believe that infidelity is wrong because it causes pain to others. Many people have been cheated on themselves and so they have personal connections and emotions about the issue. It’s not simply a matter of two people having consensual sex, it’s a matter of lying, deception and hurting someone that you claim to love. Cheating is a cowardly thing to do. If you’re not happy in your relationship, then leave. Don’t stay and sneak around behind your spouses back. That’s a shitty thing to do. But I guess I’m a religious fanatic also for thinking so. Nevermind the fact that I’m an atheist.
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“I don’t understand why the author of that blog is a “religious fanatic” just because she thinks that cheating on your spouse is wrong. ”
– 1. Because of her choice of language. 2. because secular people do not police the sexuality of others.
“Plenty of people who hold absolutely no religious beliefs whatsoever (including myself) also believe that infidelity is wrong because it causes pain to others.”
– Don’t like cheating? Then don’t cheat. That’s my approach. But sitting in judgment of other people’s sex lives because you believe that your opinions should rule their lives is completely wrong.
“Many people have been cheated on themselves and so they have personal connections and emotions about the issue.”
– Maybe they should work on their own trauma instead of projecting their emotions onto strangers. This is what real cowardice looks like: hiding from your issues through bullying others.
‘ If you’re not happy in your relationship, then leave. Don’t stay and sneak around behind your spouses back. ”
– What business is it of yours how people construct their personal lives? What purpose does barking these commands at the universe serve for you? Have you tried concentrating on your own sex life instead of policing the lives of others so aggressively?
” But I guess I’m a religious fanatic also for thinking so. Nevermind the fact that I’m an atheist.”
– I’m failing to see any difference between you and, say, a rabid pro-lifer who bullies women seeking abortion because she thinks abortion is wrong and everybody should conduct their lives according to her personal set of beliefs.
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You compared me to a rabid pro-lifer because I think that people should actually communicate with their spouses if problems arise in their relationships instead of lying and cheating? WOW.
I’m not trying, and neither is Dianna Anderson, to police people’s lives. People can do whatever the want, naturally. If you wanna cheat then, fine, be a cheater. But sometimes there are things that people do that are shitty and hurtful to others and it’s not wrong to call attention to that. Cheating is one of those things. But hey, if you think that defending cheaters is what makes you a better feminist or whatever then me or anyone else, then go ahead thinking that. I think you’re being absolutely absurd.
Oh no, was that judgmental of me too??
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“You compared me to a rabid pro-lifer because I think that people should actually communicate with their spouses if problems arise in their relationships instead of lying and cheating? ”
– It is not your place to think about how other people should conduct their personal lives. Why can’t you just concentrate on yours?
“But sometimes there are things that people do that are shitty and hurtful to others and it’s not wrong to call attention to that. ”
– Have those “others” requested that you call attention to anything on their behalf?
“I think you’re being absolutely absurd.”
– It would be a lot more honest of you to analyze why the personal lives of complete strangers provoke such a visceral and emotional reaction in you. And yes, there is absolutely no difference between you and an aggressive pro-lifer. None. They feel as entitled to impose their morality on others as you are.
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Following your logic, none of us should care if a husband is abusing or raping his wife because what goes on in their personal life is none of our business and we shouldn’t judge in the name of being uber-progressive. Sometimes it’s okay to be judgmental and outspoken about things that people do in their personal and/or sex lives. If it causes real harm to others it’s worth speaking out about. I have no problem with adults having consensual sex, whether they’re married or not, but I have a problem when people’s choices affect others in a negative way. Sorry, not sorry.
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“Following your logic, none of us should care if a husband is abusing or raping his wife because what goes on in their personal life is none of our business and we shouldn’t judge in the name of being uber-progressive. ”
– Do you really not see a difference between a crime and a personal choice that is in no way criminal but simply one you disapprove of? Would you like cheating to be criminalized? If so, then how are you different from that freak in Virginia who wants to criminalize oral and anal sex because he feels these practices go against his code of morality?
“Sometimes it’s okay to be judgmental and outspoken about things that people do in their personal and/or sex lives. If it causes real harm to others it’s worth speaking out about. ”
– This is exactly the argument anti-choicers, homophobes, people who are against legal divorce, anti-contraception folks, etc. use.
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Again. You are missing the point that I am not trying to control anyone’s life. I said that people can cheat if they want to. I just personally do not feel that it is the best way to conduct a relationship. One of my very good friends was cheated on several times by her fiance and she chose to ignore it and ended up marrying him and he STILL lied to her and cheated on her all the time. Finally she divorced him because she realized that this was not the kind of man she wanted to spend her life with. Cheating makes it very hard for a lot of people to have healthy, happy relationships. And of course it’s not the same as raping or abusing someone but you are still hurting someone that you claim to love. If being progressive or feminist is all about letting men walk all over women and cheat on them and lie to them just because they feel like it then I want no part of that. Everyone can make their own choices, but some choices are shitty ones and they will hinder a person’s ability to actually have a meaningful relationship. The only way it would ever work is if the two people decided to have an open relationship, but that’s not really cheating because there is a mutual agreement. Nobody is hurt.
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“If being progressive or feminist is all about letting men walk all over women and cheat on them and lie to them just because they feel like it then I want no part of that.”
– Men and women cheat equally. This is not a gender issue.
“Everyone can make their own choices, but some choices are shitty ones and they will hinder a person’s ability to actually have a meaningful relationship. ”
– Are you aware that there are people who do not want meaningful relationships? Are you prepared to respect their desire to live outside of meaningful relationships, or would you like to pack everybody into the relational model that meets with your approval? If so, then how are you different from those who rant against single women and consider them deficient for not wanting to be married?
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If people don’t want meaningful relationships then they shouldn’t get into them. Don’t marry someone if you are not planning on sticking with them excusively. Or you could have an open relationship with your spouse, so that they are on the same page as you about the idea of having sex with other people. Don’t lie to them or go behind their back. That’s shitty. This is not a hard concept to grasp. And the fact that you want to keep comparing me to religious fanatics and and right-wing extremists because I think couples should communicate and be honest with each other is hysterical. Like, you are the one who is coming off as the fanatic here. I’m not trying to control anybody, as I have stated many times, but I do think that adults in adult relationships should know how to have some basic human decency and compassion for their significant other. If you want to sleep with other people then DON’T GET MARRIED. OR MARRY SOMEONE WHO HAS THE SAME VIEWS AS YOU ON THOSE THINGS. Wow, what a hard concept!
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“If people don’t want meaningful relationships then they shouldn’t get into them. Don’t marry someone if you are not planning on sticking with them excusively. ”
– Here you go again, barking orders at people who never asked for your input.
“And the fact that you want to keep comparing me to religious fanatics and and right-wing extremists because I think couples should communicate and be honest with each other is hysterical.”
– Yet you haven’t managed to answer a single one of my many questions as to how you differ from them.
” If you want to sleep with other people then DON’T GET MARRIED. OR MARRY SOMEONE WHO HAS THE SAME VIEWS AS YOU ON THOSE THINGS.”
– What makes you think that other people should substitute your judgment for theirs? If you are entitled to marry or not according to your own life strategy, why shouldn’t others be entitled to the same consideration? Because your morality is better? Because you know what works for every person on this planet? Because everybody should think exactly like you do?
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LOL, sweet Jesus this is ridiculous. Nowhere did I bark orders at anyone. Like, literally nowhere. All I’m doing is speaking to what seems to work for most people in healthy relationships. I’m not pulling this shit out of my ass. Cheating causes a lot of damage. And it’s just common sense to not get married or to marry someone who has similar views and values as you, especially if you have an “unorthodox” way of doing things. Why bother pretending to be something that you’re not? Why bother lying to someone and causing them unnecessary hurt? People make mistakes and I’m not saying that people who cheat should be shunned from society. But if it’s a constant pattern in your life, like it seems to be with Hugo Schwyzer, for instance then maybe that’s a problem. Maybe it’s not okay and maybe people shouldn’t make excuses for it. Maybe it’s okay for people to even be, gasp, judgmental. We are all judgmental about things. Every single one of us. Even you. If you say that you’ve never judged anyone for anything then you are a liar. Either that or you are the first person in recorded history to be completely perfect in every way.
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“Nowhere did I bark orders at anyone. Like, literally nowhere.”
– The type of sentence that you keep using (e.g. “Don’t marry someone if you are not planning on sticking with them excusively.”) is called a direct command.
“All I’m doing is speaking to what seems to work for most people in healthy relationships. ”
– We have already discussed this. Everybody is entitled to their own definition of a healthy relationship. Everybody is equally entitled not to want a healthy relationship.
” Why bother pretending to be something that you’re not? Why bother lying to someone and causing them unnecessary hurt?”
– People can have a multitude of reasons to do things you don’t approve of. Once again, where is the difference between you and an anti-choicer who asks, “Why have sex at all if you are not prepared to face the consequences?”
“But if it’s a constant pattern in your life, like it seems to be with Hugo Schwyzer, for instance then maybe that’s a problem.”
– Can you at least leave complete strangers the space to decide what constitutes a problem for them?
“If you say that you’ve never judged anyone for anything then you are a liar. Either that or you are the first person in recorded history to be completely perfect in every way.”
– Let’s concentrate on what we are discussing here: your need to opine aggressively on other people’s sex lives. I keep wondering how you would feel if you were cyber-bullied by people who don’t approve of your sex life. If, say, you have had sex without being married, used contraception, maybe even had oral sex, there are crowds of people out there who think you were wrong, irresponsible and diseased for doing that. Would you like to be bullied by them? And for the fifth time: how are you different from, say, Rush Limbaugh bullying Sandra Fluke for having the kind of sex life he disapproves of? I’m sure he is just as convinced of the superior nature of his morality as you are of yours. Can you answer this single very simple question? It would be nice to have a specific, concrete answer.
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Look. This all started because of Hugo Schwyzer and he does NOT have a healthy relationship. Repeated infidelity, sleeping with students, and actually trying to KILL YOUR SPOUSE when you’re high on drugs does not a healthy relationship make. Hugo is the last person who you should be defending here. And as someone else said, he has a pattern of trying to take the moral high road and basically act like Professor Feminism. Many feminists are tired of his bullshit and his fall from grace is a long time coming. He’s not a victim. He’s a cheater, and abuser and a huge hypocrite.
There may be some other examples of other couples who had to deal with infidelity and they ended up being fine and still able to have healthy relationships. But Schwyzer isn’t one of them. And literally no one is cyber bullying him. He dug his own damn grave and now he has to lie in it. The end.
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“This all started because of Hugo Schwyzer and he does NOT have a healthy relationship.”
– Are you sure everybody on the planet sees all of your relationships as healthy?
“Hugo is the last person who you should be defending here.”
– Please do me the kindness of not offering any advice to me.
“He’s not a victim. He’s a cheater, and abuser and a huge hypocrite.”
– And he deserves to be bullied by a mob because he is a cheater and a hypocrite? Seriously?
“And literally no one is cyber bullying him. ”
– Please look up the definition of cyberbullying. What is happening to Hugo fits that definition perfectly.
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And to answer your question, as I already did (apparently you can’t read) I’m not like Rush Limbaugh and all those other fanatics because I. AM. NOT. TRYING. TO. CONTROL. ANYBODY. I’m a random person on the internet. I’m not an influential right-wing leader with a platform and an actual voice in mainstream society. I’m just a person who thinks that couples should communicate with each other and not hurt each other on purpose. That’s it.
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“I’m a random person on the internet. I’m not an influential right-wing leader with a platform and an actual voice in mainstream society. I’m just a person who thinks that couples should communicate with each other and not hurt each other on purpose. That’s it.”
– So the only difference is that he is famous and you are not? Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying.
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Also, the fact that I’m not actually trying to control anybody and just think that people should be decent to each other. and not lie and be purposefully deceitful. OH NOEZ WHAT A TERRIBLE PERSON I AM!
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Also the fact that I’m not actually trying to control anybody and just think people should be decent to each other and not lie and be purposeful deceitful. OH NOEZ WHAT A TERRIBLE PERSON I AM!
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“Also the fact that I’m not actually trying to control anybody and just think people should be decent to each other and not lie and be purposeful deceitful. ”
– You cannot construct a single comment without using the word “should.” Just count how many “shoulds” you have used in this single conversation. This is a hallmark of a highly aggressive, controlling personality.
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Oops, double post.
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This Hugo Schwyzer pity party you want to have here is just making me laugh. He is not being cyber-bullied. He is being called out, rightfully so, for being a hypocritical, abusive shithead. A lot of the feminists who are against him are abuse victims themselves and they understand what men like Schwyzer are all about. He’s gross and manipulative and plenty of people can see through him. Shame that you can’t.
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“A lot of the feminists who are against him are abuse victims themselves and they understand what men like Schwyzer are all about.”
– That’s exactly what I’m saying. People are projecting. And that is highly unproductive and very unhealthy.
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And now you’ve diagnosed me as highly aggressive and controlling because I think it’s a good idea for couples to treat each other well and not lie to each other and cheat? God, you keep getting more and more bizarre by the second.
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“And now you’ve diagnosed me as highly aggressive and controlling because I think it’s a good idea for couples to treat each other well and not lie to each other and cheat? ”
– Ah, so I can see you don’t like the taste of your own medicine. 🙂 🙂 I rest my case.
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You don’t have the right to tell abuse victims how they are supposed to react to abusers. Hugo Schwyzer is an abuser.
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“You don’t have the right to tell abuse victims how they are supposed to react to abusers.”
– Please abstain from defining my rights. The only agencies that will define what rights I have are myself and the criminal justice system.
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You have not made any kind of “case.” You are coming off as completely unhinged and out of touch with reality.
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“You have not made any kind of “case.” You are coming off as completely unhinged and out of touch with reality.”
– Says the person who is passionately against diagnosing people. 🙂 🙂
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I’m done here, this is going nowhere. Keep fighting the good fight. And by “good fight” I mean defending assholes like Hugo Schwyzer against the big bad feminist brigade.
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“Following your logic, none of us should care if a husband is abusing or raping his wife because what goes on in their personal life is none of our business and we shouldn’t judge in the name of being uber-progressive”
I can understand having an opinion if HS’s wife was your closest friend or sister. But you don’t know what went on in their marriage. Maybe he was a jerk and this was yet another instance of emotional abuse. Or maybe she was emotionally abusive and he was in pain and the only way he knew how to deal with that pain was by cheating. The point is….one should avoid judging the relationships of strangers.
If my partner cheated on me, it would be horrible and devastating and I would never forgive him. But I would never think that he should be denied employment or attacked by random strangers because of it. People need to get a grip, Cheating might be hurtful but it’s hardly a crime and it’s nothing nothing nothing like rape or physical abuse. Adult relationships are often complicated and full of hurt and pain and sitting in prim judgment of others seems naive at best and mean spirited at worst. I’m not religious but I really do believe in the concept of “not casting stones.” Everyone should tend to their own relationships and leave others to negotiate theirs.
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“If my partner cheated on me, it would be horrible and devastating and I would never forgive him. But I would never think that he should be denied employment or attacked by random strangers because of it. ”
– Exactly. I have never in my life cheated on anybody and would not accept anybody cheating on me. But cyberbullying a person because he constructed his marriage – a marriage that I know nothing about and that is in no way my concern – in a different way is just wrong.
“Everyone should tend to their own relationships and leave others to negotiate theirs.”
– That’s what I’m saying. I remember how hurtful it was when people who are against divorce judged me for being divorced, even though they knew nothing about my life and even why I had gotten married in the first place. But they KNEW divorce was wrong and just HAD to condemn me for it in very judgmental tones.
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Hugo presented himself as a holier than thou type of individual. If you wanna play the game of goodness be prepared to be labeled a shithead when you fuck up. Pretty simple formula. On top of it all, he airs his freaking dirty laundry on line, the sad part is that he has a family(children, wife). Not only is he probably a sociopath but a narcissitic one at that. Sick, twisted and sick.
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“If you wanna play the game of goodness be prepared to be labeled a shithead when you fuck up.”
– Another lover of offering unsolicited commands has joined us. What makes you think your advice interests anybody here?
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Oh come on Clarissa. Youre the one who posts a picture of a fat Christian with a placard and then go off on a rant about them. Are you really going to play this game?
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“Oh come on Clarissa. Youre the one who posts a picture of a fat Christian with a placard and then go off on a rant about them. Are you really going to play this game?”
– Which game? When did I police the sex life of any “fat Christian”? Are you capable of following the conversation?
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“If you wanna play the game of goodness be prepared to be labeled a shithead when you fuck up. Pretty simple formula.”
Woah! Has everyone lost their marbles? I know that HS was a semi-public figure and people tend to have opinions of the lives of public figures. But everyone EVERYONE has done things that are less than savory; EVERYONE has had moments when they failed their partner in some capacity. I don’t think I deserve to be judged entirely by my worst moments. Nobody does.
And if nothing else…..the guy is sad and suicidal. Give him a break. Seriously. Judge him all you want when he’s healthy. For now, just wish him well. Why is that such a hard concept for everybody???
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Evelina
How do you know he is suicidal. Pattern behavior would say he is a liar. If I fuck up I expect people to point that out. If im doing it online I expect that number to be a lot. Like I said, simple formula. If you don’t want to be the big boy on the block then keep your shit to yourself.
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Are you capable of understanding when you try to police someone’s public life? You just chose to focus on their belief system not their sex life. You really are an entertaining one.
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“Are you capable of understanding when you try to police someone’s public life? You just chose to focus on their belief system not their sex life. ”
– Do you really not understand the difference between the private and the public?
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What is wrong with you????????? He is publically discussing HIS PRIVATE LIFE on line! LMAO.
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I don’t get it, to be honest. It gets out that he had an affair with a prostitute or something and suddenly his career is over, but when it got out he tried to murder his girlfriend, slept with his students etc. it wasn’t that much of an issue. I know that human emotions are not bound by logic, but come on.
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The career is over not because of an affair but because of the cyber bullying. Colleges care about reputation and the moment there is a critical mass of people calling him an evildoer, he’s done. The reasons why he is called an evildoer are completely irrelevant.
It’s just how it is on academia.
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In the past you talked how people shouldn’t care too much, if f.e. their naked pictures are published on-line. I disagreed. Here is one of examples how Internet users can cause great harm in RL. I would bet the college’s reaction would be similar to a critical mass calling a woman a slut, no?
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No, of course not. I can’t imagine anybody caring about any naked pictures. And words like “slut ” don’t bother anybody past the age of 14. Hugo was accused of being oppressive to women. That, or being called a racist or an anti-Semite etc are the real deal-breakers.
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Yes, sure.
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Damn, these feminists just keep getting better and better. I think I will go have a scotch. Oh wait, I don’t drink scotch, I will have a beer. 🙂
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Poor guy. He’s a good writer and quite genuine in his way. Trying to fit into a moral paradigm of the good christian soldier is not a good idea for anyone, simply because humans don’t work that way. Moral improvement and moral reform and not useful structures for us to try to relate to.
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“Trying to fit into a moral paradigm of the good christian soldier is not a good idea for anyone, simply because humans don’t work that way. Moral improvement and moral reform and not useful structures for us to try to relate to.”
– Oh, I agree completely. Even if you manage to beat yourself into submission with guilt for years, one day the whole farce will blow up. Especially as one moves into the andropause.
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Andropause???? 🙂
It’s just that the structure is unrealistic for anybody. I tried to fit into the model when I was in my twenties and it earned me chronic fatigue syndrome as all my aggressive energies turned inward. We are not angels. Some of us might be able to appear more like an angel if we do not have much aggression or sexual energy to begin with. But others, like Hugo and I, will become very messed up if we meddle with ourselves within the Christian paradigm.
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He’s in his late 40ies, isn’t he? That’s when andropause begins to hit. All of the psychological problems that weren’t resolved before that time will become really prominent. If this time of life is accompanied by childbirth (as happened to Hugo), andropause becomes especially severe.
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It may be so, especially if the individual has been following a path that is strongly determined by his biology. Actually I think he is in his mid-forties right now. Also it seems to me that his embrace of an unsuitable and punitive paradigm has probably been tripping him up from a very early age–probably from his childhood.
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Obviously, the guy has been extremely messed up. And instead of addressing his issues, he decided to control them with force of will, religious constraints, and marriage to a domineering woman. That project was doomed to fail.
I really hope he finds the strength to ditch the pills, the religion, and the domineering woman, and starts working on the actual issues.
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“It may be so, especially if the individual has been following a path that is strongly determined by his biology.”
– You can’t avoid andropause or menopause but it is very possible to make their effects non-disruptive.
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Verily? I’m not so strongly biological determinist as you are. Menopause is something I have tried to bring on myself, and thanks to a Mirena, it seems to be working. People fear and deny change, but I wonder if it has to be framed so negatively.
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You don’t have to be biologically determinist to accept that all healthy women experience an onset and then the end of menstruation. It just happens. 🙂
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No, but of course that is a different issue. For example, I could say watch out for the psychological change you will undergo when your days become longer and your nights become shorter. That’s a real turning point! I hope you survive it!
In all the US is a much more biological deterministic place than Australia. I think that is directly related to its greater conservatism. In Australia, biology is not pointed to very often, unless one wishes to malign one’s political opponent.
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This is a massive hormonal transformation we are talking about. If somebody is just barely holding on to reality as it is, chances that they will not fall apart when their body starts undergoing the change are minimal. In the meanwhile, healthy, stable people will notice physiological changes but will not be psychologically affected.
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And I only wish Americans were capable of accepting this simple idea. Instead, women guzzle hormonal replacement drugs and men do nothing whatsoever for this issue. The result is being illustrated by Hugo.
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Oh, yes, massive hormonal transformation….like being on a whiplash ride every few weeks? You just have to become a surfer, with a surfer’s mentality, riding those massive waves.
Developing one’s subjectivity is key. If you want to try to anchor your identity in your biology and then your biology changes, you’ve going to feel like everything is crashing down around you.
I still think there is no need to be so obsessional about biology. It changes. No need to view those changes as an attack on your inner being. That also changes.
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I agree with you completely. This doesn’t have to be the end of the world like it often is.
I’ve been undergoing massive hormonal transformations during the pregnancy. The physical symptoms are numerous and very taxing. But emotionally and psychologically, I’m completely unruffled. Not a single mood swing, crying jug, feeling of sadness, or anything that pregnant women so often experience. Psychological hygiene takes care of all this.
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People are prejudiced against whatever isn’t static, but all changes can teach you something.
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Poor Hugo Schwyzer?
What would have been best for Hugo, his family, and feminism would have been for feminists to listen to non-feminists who pointed out Hugo’s sociopathy years and years ago.
Instead prominent feminists embraced him, encouraged him, and defended his bad behaviors, because they loved his misandric blaming of men, it nicely supported their own misandry.
The question is not poor Hugo, the question is poor feminism how could it have been so willfully blinded.
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Creatures who identify as “non-feminists” are vicious cockroaches who should shut their stupid pieholes and buzz off the blogs of decent people. If you know any of these nasty insects, do tell them that they will be better served by examining their own sociopathy than to chirp idiotically about somebody else’s.
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Freaking hilarious. Attributing Hugo’s lying sociopathic behavior to his hormones. You guys are the best. I can just imagine the vitriol coming out of your mouths if that was someone from the men’s rights movement saying something about hormones related to a woman. Amazing the mental gymnastics you must do to be able to write this stuff. Ideologues at their best!!
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There is no need to get so upset about andropause. It is a normal part of any man’s life, just like menopause is for a woman.
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By the way, the hormonal angle is even more interesting when you take into account that new, attractive women help spike the testosterone levels of men in “andropause”. In other words. That new chick make “me so horny”, lol.
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Exactly. I have blogged about this before, explaining why older men chase after young women. As their potency wanes, they go after women of the age group that does not need a whole lot of sex. This is a way of hiding from the truth about the pending body change.
In the meanwhile, the libido of menopausal women soars. Which is a bummer because it would beach nicer to have the experience when one is 20.
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That is what makes men and women better lovers as they age. Men know they cant get it up as fast anymore so they learn the art. And women generally are more comfortable with their sexuality as they age> Gotta love them MILF’s. 🙂
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Exactly!
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Unless one has some kind of psychological dependence on an externally imposed stages of life theory, potency does not decline with age. I say this from experience — of course, indirect.
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It declines not because of a physiological imperative but because of how we collectively construct our lives. But the genome non is do ubiquitous that it acquires the force of a physiological imperative. Since it is so immensely likely to happen, it’s better to prepare for it.
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genome non?
Anyway, my point is, Mike is nearly 70 and no decline in sexual capability.
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He looks like he is 50, so I believe you! Good job! 🙂
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It’s not a physical thing, of course, but a matter of inwardness.
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// It declines not because of a physiological imperative but because of how we collectively construct our lives.
Could you explain how? Do you construct differently? How?
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The patriarchal mentality denies men the right to choose partners freely. They have to perform with whomever whenever the opportunity presents itself. Eventually, this self-violation erodes the sex drive.
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But you usually tell people not to blame society, f.e. to women who feel shame about their sexuality. Was somebody raping those men to sleep with “whoever whenever”?
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They are doing it to themselves. Just like women who delay their sexual awakening en masse because the patriarchal standard leads them to value a relationship over sexual fulfillment. Of course, it’s a personal choice to obey the patriarchal standard and people pay the price for that choice.
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Clarissa, I tend to share your belief that Hugo gets a lot of hatred on the Internet. No one should get the extreme comments, but yeah, it happens, and some people even make things up, strange as that may seem.
On the other hand, you reap what you sow, and I’m not quite sure that you are aware of the extent that Hugo has also “dished it out”.
I have no idea what your motives are for defending this person. He has really exploited and hurt a lot of people.
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“I have no idea what your motives are for defending this person.”
– I’m anti-bullying, that’s all. I have been cyber-bullied and I know how devastating it is.
“He has really exploited and hurt a lot of people.”
– The ones who are cyber-bullying him have no personal relationship to him, though.
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As far as I can tell, most of this anger seems to stem from the fact that a feminist man was imperfect in his interactions towards women. Anti feminist men seem to think that HS’s personal problems somehow justifies their disgusting gender politics while feminist women are either a) acting betrayed by their white knight or b) happy that feminism can remain an all girls’ club.
I have been reading some of HS’s material since this all came out and I don’t personally like much of it and think it lacks intellectual rigor. But I still am happy that someone prominently and proudly identified as a male feminist. This whole circus made me realize that one of the most dangerous subject positions to occupy is that of a male feminist. I hope that more men begin to proclaim their feminism proudly so we can stop trying to expect perfection from the few men who do identify as feminists.
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“Anti feminist men seem to think that HS’s personal problems somehow justifies their disgusting gender politics while feminist women are either a) acting betrayed by their white knight or b) happy that feminism can remain an all girls’ club.”
– I couldn’t agree more.
“I have been reading some of HS’s material since this all came out and I don’t personally like much of it and think it lacks intellectual rigor.”
– I have criticized his writing more times than I can remember. But the rage so many people feel because this man, a complete stranger, has had a nervous breakdown is completely unhealthy. One can disagree with the writings, but wishing somebody sickness and death is not an appropriate response.
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There is certainly something more than a little sick about contemporary, Western feminism.
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There is certainly something more than a little sick about contemporary, Western feminism.(Muster)
Damn, you just made my heart skip a beat. 🙂
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Evelina
Are you that blinded by your feminist views that you cant see a predator when they show you their fangs? That must be some pretty damn good lemonade. I know more than enough individuals who don’t identify as “feminist” who are much more equalists than meester Hugo. Keep up the good fight for gender equality, it seems you have some good ones on your team. 😉
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“Are you that blinded by your feminist views that you cant see a predator when they show you their fangs?”
– People create the weirdest imagery in relation to Hugo. Here is somebody who imagines himself as a Little Red Riding Hood to Hugo’s big bad wolf.
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“Are you that blinded by your feminist views that you cant see a predator when they show you their fangs?”
Huh? It’s not like he is saying that his affairs with his students or his sad sad relationships with women are a mark of his feminism. On the contrary, he can’t stop criticizing himself. I think he might be a masochist because he seems to feel compelled to publically recount and apologize for whatever he feels guilty for. Would I want to marry or date HS? No. I don’t think he would make a good partner. But I am happy that he seems to sincerely believe in gender equality–no matter how broken he may be as an individual.
And again, the man seems to be in pain. Even if he were an anti-abortion, anti contraception, anti equal pay, misogynist, I would feel the same way. It’s inhumane to kick someone who is so clearly down.
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Think about this for just one minute, one! The man likes ladies, his pattern shows he likes ladies, A LOT. Can you imagine for just one minute that maybe, justtttttt maybe his feminism gave him a doorway to a whole lot of women? Im so glad my 16yr old daughter see’s the potential and already predators a little clearer than you seem to. I was wrong before, it isn’t lemonade but cool aid.
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“The man likes ladies, his pattern shows he likes ladies, A LOT. Can you imagine for just one minute that maybe, justtttttt maybe his feminism gave him a doorway to a whole lot of women?’
– Ah, so here is why you dislike him so much. I’ve been wondering why you are so emotionally invested. I have to say, I thought boys stopped competing as to who has had more sex after they turned 20. Apparently, for some the competitions continues.
But to answer your question, I don’t despise women, so I don’t imagine anything as patently ridiculous as what you suggest.
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Clarissa
I dislike hypocrites. Immensely. I dislike my behavior when I do hypocritical behavior. I don’t know him personally so I cant say whether or not I like him. I can only look at his actions in this format and they aint too pretty.
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Nothing wrong with heterosexuality, even if hyper.
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Exactly! And it shows that all the feminist morality and idealism are just posturing. There’s nothing real or substantive about them.
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“And it shows that all the feminist morality and idealism are just posturing.”
– Not “all.” This is just a tiny number of vocal Internet hysterics. Crowds of actual feminists do extremely important work on a daily basis.
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I hope so, but I think if there were really a lot of good ones they would have shut down their hysterical sisters.
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“I hope so, but I think if there were really a lot of good ones they would have shut down their hysterical sisters.”
– Why? It is their right to be who they are and vociferate as much as they like. If they don’t have a chance to release their energies online, they will go and abuse their children. I’d much rather they unburden themselves electronically.
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I didn’t mean in the policing sense. My view is that feminism these days is really just the glorification of femininity. it gets tiresome.
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“My view is that feminism these days is really just the glorification of femininity.”
– Femininity? I’m not seeing that. Did you see our thread on leg-shaving? people seemed to be convinced they were making some sort of a huge political statement with not shaving them. Glorification of banality is more like it.
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Oh. But that is a kind of femininity in a way…the goddess of the small stuff.
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“But that is a kind of femininity in a way…the goddess of the small stuff.”
– I have to say, you are right on this one. Interesting. . . I need to think about this more but there is definitely something important to this observation.
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It’s a reversion to the old forms, I think. I just read another article on HS that said he ought to be judged as a role model. Why do adults need role models? Children certainly might benefit from such, but adults, even if they are female, can probably risk going it alone.
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“Why do adults need role models?”
– I know! It is very disturbing how many people are upset that this particular guy didn’t cater to their childishness.
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The idea of the herd, raised by Titfortat, and of course pastoral guidance or leadership, are based on the system of the church. I think many people expect this system to be replicated in the feminist movement, but there are many good reasons for wishing it would not be reproduced. Concerns with morality and how things appear to others and the role of the community in policing behavior ought to be restricted to religious communities. It seems people wish to belong to a community called “feminism”, but I would rather see them develop their critical thinking skills and learn how difficult it is to be independent from patriarchal norms.
Every major site I visit indicates to me that the message that “feminists” are getting across these days is that they demand more acceptance for what were once considered the negative aspects of traditional femininity. They want frivolity, caprice and arbitrariness in action to be accepted as their right. They want to call the shots. They want to determine what is moral. They want more acceptance for hurt feelings and more legal power for motherhood. They want what they want. But they don’t want to conform to the other side of traditional femininity, which would require some docility and obedience. They like only the self-indulgent side, where they get to be shrill.
When MRAs and others criticize “feminism”, this is what they are really seeming to attack — this new femininity.
I really don’t have much time for it, myself.
http://unsanesafe.blogspot.com.au/2013/08/repost.html
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Crowds of actual feminists do extremely important work on a daily basis.(Clarissa)
Yes they do. But it would be nice when one of the herd strays or shows that they weren’t actually real that you called them out on it. This guy wasn’t a feminist or gender equality individual he is a PREDATOR, plain and fucking simple.
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“Yes they do. But it would be nice when one of the herd strays or shows that they weren’t actually real that you called them out on it. This guy wasn’t a feminist or gender equality individual he is a PREDATOR, plain and fucking simple.”
– I’m sorry, I don’t speak this language of hormonal teenagers. What does “shows that they weren’t actually real” mean? That Hugo is imaginary, or what? What does it mean to “call them out on it”? What is a PREDATOR? What is “straying from the herd”?
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Oh, now, see, I take precisely the opposite view. I don’t distinguish between real or unreal people. If people have a particular line of reasoning or ability, I take that into account, but that is totally different from forming an alliance with them. Americans really get all mangled with the morality and reality thing. They are the one group in the Western world that has the least ability to perceive reality.
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“I’m so glad my 16yr old daughter see’s the potential and already predators a little clearer than you seem to.”
1) I’m 39. I hardly think I have to be on “predator watch.”
2) I don’t much about HS but nothing I have read suggested that he slept with minors.
3) I actually do think it’s sexual harassment for professors to sleep with (adult) students. But that seems to have been behavior that HS engaged in two decades ago. I’m not sure that it’s fair to forever berate and judge someone for mistakes they made in their 20’s.
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) I’m 39. I hardly think I have to be on “predator watch.”(evelina)
Yeah, its not like 39yr olds can get duped and maybe end up doing something they regret or worse.
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“I actually do think it’s sexual harassment for professors to sleep with (adult) students.”
– I do, too. But I don’t believe for a second that this current round of cyber bullying is genuinely motivated by concern for the welfare of the students in question who had relations with Hugo decades ago.
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“Yeah, its not like 39yr olds can get duped and maybe end up doing something they regret or worse.”
What are you talking about? Honestly. Other than being drugged, how can an adult woman “get duped [into] doing something they regret or worse?” I suppose there are some extreme circumstances that you could spin but none of those scenarios apply here.
To assuage your concerns: I am involved in a very happy and fulfilling monogamous relationship. At the same time, I feel sympathy for a man who is expressing psychological anguish. This man and I happen to share some political views. It’s really quite simple. Nobody is duping me and nobody else is being duped.
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Ok, I get it. It is very clear now.
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Hugo is your classic unreliable narrator. Everyone is forgetting this and arguing as if he’s a reliable one merely because he takes such a “confessional” tone in so many of his articles and interviews.
The details keep changing, his examination of his reasons for doing things is suspect.
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So, he’s an inventive writer, not a role model.
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Most bullshitters are very inventive, lol.
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He’s a product of the 90s when the ideologies Reaganism and Thatcherism had finally permeated the cultures of the West. Necessarily, he was a narcissist, because one does not become successful as this kind of individual without a huge capacity to lie to oneself and others.
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“The details keep changing, his examination of his reasons for doing things is suspect.”
– First-person narrative is always like that. I find people who are traumatized by inconsistencies and contradictions of first-person narratives to me mystifying. Writing is either good or not, interesting or boring.
There is so much emotional investment into Hugo’s writing that it’s scary.
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In a perverse way, people seem to fear his individualism. That is the nature of a first person narrative. It is the height of individualism. So the herd naturally finds reasons not to like it.
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Notice also how people are straining to create some completely spurious personal or emotional link to this guy. One commenter in this thread explained that she is rabidly angry at him because somebody (not Hugo!) cheated on her friend. Hence she hates Hugo. He should have watched out for her emotional state by handling his personal life in a way that wouldn’t have traumatized her, a complete stranger. Talk about choosing immaturity.
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Also he has a name like “hug-o”, but he never hugged me once, even though I am here waiting for him. What is up with that?
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Good point. 🙂
I’m more disappointed than I thought I could be. To see this crowd of infantile whiners – I don’t care if they call themselves feminists or pink monkeys with blue heads – who are more preachy than the worst fundamentalists and less self-aware than a bunch of infants is very disheartening.
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I think it is the decline of the West.
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This is pretty sad:
4. Feminism is hard. Being a feminist is hard, not just for men, not just for white women, but for all feminists. As Sara Ahmed has argued, it means killing a lot of joy, both for ourselves and for others. If your feminism is easy and makes you feel good all the time, well, then, you’re probably doing it wrong. Perhaps one productive thing to come out of Schwyzer’s erstwhile resignation is a serious conversation about how to support one another as we live with and work through the emotional pain, fragility, sadness, despair, melancholy, mourning, discomfort, awkwardness, and all the other difficult, unpleasant feelings that come with practicing feminism.
http://thesocietypages.org/cyborgology/2013/08/01/schwyzer-quits-the-internet/
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Oh God. I mean, what kind of an intensely weird person could confuse this with political activism?
People surely love to feel sorry for themselves.
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The degree to which feminism is a puritanical religion….
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The problem is that Americans can turn EVERYTHING into a puritanical religion. Take any topic of discussion, and soon somebody will begin to preach and condemn.
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I tried to have a conversation with the insane Nazi about this recently. I said it ought to be possible just to look at some chain of events as “experience”, rather than making everything into an issue of morality. I said that in general Africans do this automatically, since an African style of psyche tends to integrate experience with reasoning a lot more than people are trained to do in the West. To stand apart from experience and intellectually condemn things, as if you had some kind of insight born of omniscience, is in bad taste I think.
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To be fair to the insane Nazi, though, he may be more civilized than I. It’s a bit disturbing to watch Blake’s 7 and find my unconscious identifies more with Space Commander Travis than with the revolutionary hero, Blake. So in that case, I would take on the insane Nazi role, but it may just feel this way when I commit myself to my training.
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You really lost me with Blake and Space Commander. 🙂
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🙂
http://blakes7.wikia.com/wiki/Travis
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Also, as Nietzsche points out, that is the nature of subjectivity, to be able to shift your perspective, perhaps gaining a better analysis in the process. Nietzsche does not separate subjectivity from doing analyses, as is evident by his notions in GAY SCIENCE. He even says, perhaps the whole of history has not been understood until now and we are still waiting for someone with enough insight in them to explain it. He is quite clear about the kind of insight he means. A philosopher who does not view the world from a basis of personal experience has no value, he says.
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What I meant to say is that he’s a more unreliable narrator than usual :p
Masses of people are arguing about Hugo’s bad deeds from his ouevre of confessional pieces and other people are arguing for some compassion based on his most recent announcements. Both groups accept that there’s some core of truth or mostly true to these announcements and his confessional articles. I just think that assumption is unfounded.
It’s such a basic assumption that people get really angry that these “true confessional” stories aren’t completely true confessionals, especially if they include some kind of “I saw the light and now I’m better/sober/monogamous/more Christian” whatever. Look at how pissed Oprah got over A Million Little Pieces. Imagine how angry everyone would be if Hugo pulled a James Frey.
I hope you’re not reading that I’m traumatized by this more than usual unreliable narrator garbage. If you are, these are my confessions and my chick on the side’s got one on the way. 😛
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No, of course I don’t think you are one if the weird people. I’d never suspect you of getting weirdly emotional about Hugo’s cheating. 🙂
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I think the extreme emotional responses to this case mostly fall into two groups
a – those that believed what he was saying and felt personally betrayed by recent revelations, nobody likes being played for a sucker and a lot of people must have felt like big suckers for intellectually investing in him, there’s no buyer’s remorse as powerful as intellectual buyer’s remorse;
b – those who thought he was lying all along and who weren’t going to miss a chance sing “Ye ballade av ye blacke woman in hindsight”:
As I’ve written I always thought he was something of a snake oil salesman (he reminded me both of some real sociopaths I’ve come across and this guy):
But I didn’t have any big emotional investment in what he was saying one way or another so my reaction is just once more to have my worst suspicions proved right (Miss Marple is one of my literary heroes).
A fair amount of the schadenfreude being expressed is people not believing that he’s really contrite or experiencing any real personal pain (beyond a mild degree of embarassment while he plans how to turn this around).
If this were 40 or more years ago, his next step would be religious conversion and a new life “In Christ” (or whatever religion would have him and not mind him using it to capitalize on hi past).
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“those that believed what he was saying and felt personally betrayed by recent revelations”
– First of all, it is completely insane to feel betrayed by a complete stranger having a nervous breakdown or marital issues. Also, which part of what he ever said has been undermined by what is happening? He said he was trying to stay off pills and remain monogamous. He obviously did try for many years. Then the efforts failed. Where is the big betrayal?
“But I didn’t have any big emotional investment in what he was saying one way or another”
– Because you are normal and healthy. A big emotional investment into the lives of strangers is very unhealthy.
“A fair amount of the schadenfreude being expressed is people not believing that he’s really contrite or experiencing any real personal pain ”
– According to this logic, I should feel contrite for having gestational diabetes.
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“it is completely insane to feel betrayed by a complete stranger having a nervous breakdown or marital issues…. Also, which part of what he ever said has been undermined by what is happening?”
When it comes to ideology (esp ideological divides with hard feelings on both sides) any faltering by someone on the same side is betrayal and any faltering by someone on the other side is proof of the other side’s moral rot. Logic or reasonableness has nothing to do with it.
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“When it comes to ideology (esp ideological divides with hard feelings on both sides) any faltering by someone on the same side is betrayal and any faltering by someone on the other side is proof of the other side’s moral rot. ”
– That sounds like religious thinking, eh? Maybe this is why I’m not getting it.
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// “The details keep changing, his examination of his reasons for doing things is suspect.”
– First-person narrative is always like that. I find people who are traumatized by inconsistencies and contradictions of first-person narratives to me mystifying. Writing is either good or not, interesting or boring.
There can be sincerety or inner coherence in a narrator. True, he may be confused himself, but not deliberately lying to an audience. Hugo’s type of blogging isn’t just any first-person narrative, but more like an autobography or confessions genre.
But, most important, when somebody tries to gain RL favors by telling stories about himself, it goes beyond good writing or not. A snake oil salesman may provide great narratives, but their being interesting isn’t the point, their being untrue is. The same about a true case I heard of – a blogger asked for money / help because of being in a terrible situation (disease, iirc), then it turned out to be lies. A person need not be a fool to fall for such, haven’t you offered to help with money for a computer yourself once on this blog? Hugo didn’t get money, but he was angling for maximum attention, and got it, both then and now.
Fame is a bee.
It has a song
It has a sting
Ah, too, it has a wing. (Emily Dickinson)
Btw, I am naive (?) to think Hugo IS sincere in a way, he is just being lied to by himself even more than to others.
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“Btw, I am naive (?) to think Hugo IS sincere in a way”
– Sincere about what? How does sincerity come into play here at all? He had a nervous breakdown. That’s a health issue. How does that impact the perception of his sincerity?
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// This guy wasn’t a feminist or gender equality individual he is a PREDATOR, plain and fucking simple.
If he stopped sleeping with students, he stopped being a predator. Cheating isn’t being one, imo. A predator is a rapist or “only” a sexual harasser, who may use his position of power to hurt others: students, high school students (Hugo worked with youth church organization, but I never heard of him sleeping with them, though I wouldn’t send my children into his group to go camping), inferiors at work, etc.
I think he needs psychological help, not only religious and medical kinds of help. May be, what Clarissa did would help him.
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“If he stopped sleeping with students, he stopped being a predator. Cheating isn’t being one, imo. ”
– Exactly.
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(Hugo worked with youth church organization, but I never heard of him sleeping with them, though I wouldn’t send my children into his group to go camping), inferiors at work, etc(el)
Amazing what your brain and gut tells you! Your brain says of course he is not a predator. But and it is a big but, your gut says there aint no way Im leaving my kids alone with this guy. Instinct is what allows us to survive in the wild. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, well, you get the picture. Lol.
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“Instinct is what allows us to survive in the wild.”
– There seems no limit to the number of platitudes you can produce on this topic instead of answering a single question.
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Dont sweat it Clarissa. You are almost there. A few more months and your reasoning brain wont have quite the same input as your instincts will. Mommy brain will start to question things a little differently because you will just sense something. Though Im sure you will get somewhat confused because you usually can reason everything out. I’ll get back to you in a few years, you will understand by then. lol.
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“Dont sweat it Clarissa. You are almost there. A few more months and your reasoning brain wont have quite the same input as your instincts will. Mommy brain will start to question things a little differently because you will just sense something.”
– Yes, I was right. The supply of meaningless cliches you possess is unlimited. Do you not see that not a single of these sentences make any sense?
Did you ever go to college?
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Lol, yep, meaningless. No education for me. I just read hallmark cards. No University here, just good ole life and parenting. Damn, I am so ignorant of things. Why do you think I come on your blog. You help educate me and its free. 😉
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“Why do you think I come on your blog. You help educate me and its free.”
– Then maybe you should read and think more and pontificate less. The thread is already enormous. There is no need to clutter it with trivialities.
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// – Sincere about what? How does sincerity come into play here at all?
Sincere about trying to be monogamous, believing in God and in feminism. Rather than simply milking Christian redemption narrative and being The Male Feminist to get more (sexual and otherwise) attention online and in “RL”.
// Amazing what your brain and gut tells you! Your brain says of course he is not a predator. But and it is a big but, your gut says there aint no way Im leaving my kids alone with this guy.
My brain says “he was one, most likely he isn’t one now, but I would not take such chances with my children.”
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“Sincere about trying to be monogamous, believing in God and in feminism.”
– First of all, you can’t “believe” in feminism. It is not a religious experience but a political and philosophical one. As for monogamy and God, as I said, only very disturbed individuals can care about this in relation to complete strangers.
“My brain says “he was one, most likely he isn’t one now, but I would not take such chances with my children.””
– The only adolescents who are attracted to the idea of sleeping with a man Hugo’s age are the ones who profoundly miss their father and his affection. And if they feel compelled to find a substitute daddy figure, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop that.
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// What I want to know is how he gets all the women.
Why not? He is good looking, educated and capable of being a good talker. People sleep and cheat with far inferior men. Besides, he is outgoung, extravert kind of person and, if the previous isn’t enough, also famous. It would’ve been extremely strange, if he couldn’t find any willing women.
Besides, he found “a sometime porn star,” (*) not somebody like his wife f.e.:
Schwyzer said he’s physically OK but reiterated how the social media fallout from a sexting relationship with a sometime porn star and multiple affairs with women made his marriage “over” and sunk him into a deep depression.
(*) There is a difference between the kinds of men attracted by a porn star vs. by a university professor or any other professional, middle class woman.
// He says porn, a major piece of our media landscape, needs to be studied more seriously in this country
I agree. It is an appropriate topic in Gender Studies. Despite his faults, if his course was good, Hugo made a valuable academic contribution. I think he should write a book on the topic, and, if he really has new insights, with time they’ll be accepted in his field.
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“That sounds like religious thinking, eh? Maybe this is why I’m not getting it.”
I’d say it’s a bigger pattern: group loyalty as the ultimate value
I find it very alien and have had to work long and hard to understand it and the implications but it makes a lot of things easier to understand.
This is probably the default model of human social organization and still dominant in big parts of the world (except most of europe, north america and to a lesser extent northeastern asia).
In this model there are two standards of ethics, honesty and fairness are important inside the group but when dealing with others…. anything goes. The worst thing a person can do in this world view is to do something that harms the group – whether intentionally or not.
Given how prevalent this model is, it’s not surprising to see it surface even in cultures where it’s not the daily norm anymore…
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Very interesting! I never considered this possibility but it makes a lot if sense. It’s just not how I relate to reality at all, so it never occurs me that this might be what’s going on.
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// And if they feel compelled to find a substitute daddy figure, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop that.
A substitute daddy figure doesn’t have to be sexual. Some may search for a platonic mentor, and be pushed by an adult into sexual relationship.
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“A substitute daddy figure doesn’t have to be sexual. Some may search for a platonic mentor, and be pushed by an adult into sexual relationship.”
– It almost always is, though. And given the number of creepy old men who prey on adolescents, you can’t avoid them coming into contact unless you lock the adolescent up in perpetuity. God, I still cringe when I remember how many of those creepazoids were constantly in my way when I was a teenager.
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// And given the number of creepy old men who prey on adolescents
Where have you seen them, except a few harassing freaks on the street?
Church groups for teens are supposed to provide platonic mentor(s), and Hugo led one for years.
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“Where have you seen them, except a few harassing freaks on the street?”
– There are absolutely everywhere! Buses, stores, libraries, friends’ houses, schools, youth clubs, Internet, sports teams, doctor’s offices, and of course church groups, why not? And they don’t harass. They offer what the absent Daddy should: attention, understanding, time. It’s the same thing with older women who do this to young boys with distant mothers. Just today I read an article about yet another female teacher who sexually abused 3 boys at school! AND only got 1 year in jail for this crime.
Obviously, this has nothing to do with Hugo.
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// There are absolutely everywhere!
I have never seen any of them. Guess, it was the combination of being lucky and not getting out much. Or, may be, you have seen more of them than average.
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“Guess, it was the combination of being lucky and not getting out much. ”
– You were never persecuted by dirty old men??? I have to say, you are the first person I’m talking to who doesn’t have this experience. At the age of 18, you’d go to a bar with your girlfriends and no dirty old men would approach?? This is a very new phenomenon for me.
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// – You were never persecuted by dirty old men???
Actually, for the first time in my life, I recently did have a small ugly experience. I was walking on a street near our house in the morning on the way to a local library (sometime between 9 am and 12 am) and an old passing near me man decided to touch my breast. I was shocked, he was looking and smiling (while continuing to walk in the opposite direction), we were alone on a street. Was I supposed to hit him and start a fight? Truly, I thought he was not mentally normal, was afraid and continued walking silently. I thought not to publish this, but I don’t think it should be my shame or something, even if I was afraid to attack him physically and even didn’t shout at him. If this small thing is so ugly and feels shameful, I shudder to think what rape victims feel.
// At the age of 18, you’d go to a bar with your girlfriends and no dirty old men would approach??
I have never gone to bars. My classmates in high school didn’t use to go there either, at least, not a lot. May be, some went sometimes, but not every weekend. USA may have more bar culture than Israel, and many people in both countries don’t go to bars, even if they are teens. Besides, I was in academically chosen class for supposedly gifted students, which explains a lot, imo.
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“I was shocked, he was looking and smiling (while continuing to walk in the opposite direction), we were alone on a street. Was I supposed to hit him and start a fight? Truly, I thought he was not mentally normal, was afraid and continued walking silently. I thought not to publish this, but I don’t think it should be my shame or something, even if I was afraid to attack him physically and even didn’t shout at him.”
– Horrible! And of course you are not to blame for anything here. I’m very glad that this is as far as it got, although of course even this is a horrible, intrusive, degrading experience. I feel your pain!!! God, how I hate these vicious vile abusive nasty freaks.
“I have never gone to bars. My classmates in high school didn’t use to go there either, at least, not a lot. May be, some went sometimes, but not every weekend. USA may have more bar culture than Israel, and many people in both countries don’t go to bars, even if they are teens. Besides, I was in academically chosen class for supposedly gifted students, which explains a lot, imo.”
– You remind me of N. who always says the exact same thing about his experience. This is a compliment! 🙂
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// – Horrible! And of course you are not to blame for anything here.
The worst thing is understanding that next time (may it never come) I would do, or rather not do, the same thing. Braver women would do something. After how many (hypothetic) times would it be my fault too for not reacting?
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“Braver women would do something. After how many (hypothetic) times would it be my fault too for not reacting?”
– No, no, don’t be down on yourself, really. This is absolutely not about bravery and there is no right and wrong reaction to abuse. And it will NEVER EVER EVER be your fault. This person chose to harass you in this way. All of your reactions are instant, immediate, not planned or controlled. So please, don’t overexamine your reactions. Nobody can be responsible for how they react when their sexual integrity is violated. And that is what happened.
You couldn’t do anything in the moment but you can prevent him from continuing to damage you by refusing to feel guilty.
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You reacted very well. This was an empty street, so if things had escalated, help would have not been forthcoming. You got out, removing the chance of any further assault – which is way, way more important than conforming into an image of “bravery” – and it’s not braver women who do something, it’s women whose fight/flight/freeze response chooses fight in that particular situation. This is not something that you can choose in the heat of the moment, nor is the fight/flight/freeze response something you should attempt to modify to conform to social expectations. Its job is to get you out of dangerous situations in one piece, which is something that shouldn’t be messed with for the sake of appearing brave to an imaginary audience.
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