I just read an interesting, albeit not a very new article by the great historian Tony Judt. Here is a curious paragraph detailing the change of the West’s vision of Israel:
Before 1967 the State of Israel may have been tiny and embattled, but it was not typically hated: certainly not in the West. . . The romantic image of the kibbutz and the kibbutznik had a broad foreign appeal in the first two decades of Israel’s existence. Most admirers of Israel (Jews and non-Jews) knew little about the Palestinian Nakba (catastrophe) of 1948. They preferred to see in the Jewish state the last surviving incarnation of the 19th century idyll of agrarian socialism – or else a paragon of modernizing energy “making the desert bloom.” . . . In politics and in policy-making circles only old-fashioned conservative Arabists expressed any criticism of the Jewish state. . .
But today everything is different. . . Today only a tiny minority of outsiders see Israelis as victims. The true victims, it is now widely accepted, are the Palestinians.
This is completely true, and such a change has, indeed, taken place. It has nothing, however, to do with the West caring about Palestinians. The very idea is risible if we take into account the intense anti-Muslim sentiments that exist in pretty much every Western country.
What Judt is refusing to notice is that something has changed in the West to make this change of attitude towards Israel unavoidable and necessary – to the West. The immigration of Muslims into Western countries is booming. The “support” for Palestinians – which doesn’t cost the Westerners anything – is an easy way to tell themselves, “No, it’s not true that we hate the Muslims in our midst. We are proving that every day by bravely supporting Palestinians.”
This is a nifty little way to exorcise collective guilt for everything one is actually doing and feeling towards the Muslims who are close-by. And the initial support of Israel in the first couple of decades of its existence was motivated by the same old collective guilt over the Holocaust. Now that itch has mostly been scratched and a more delicious one has appeared:
In the eyes of a watching world, the fact that the great-grandmother of an Israeli soldier died in Treblinka is no excuse for his own abusive treatment of a Palestinian woman waiting to cross a checkpoint.
No it’s not. It is, however, a great excuse used by the “the watching world” for its own mistreatment of a Muslim next door.
Clarissa's Blog 
// What Judt is refusing to notice is that something has changed in the West … And the initial support of Israel was motivated by the same old collective guilt
Thank you for noticing the elephant in this room! I honestly don’t understand what prevented Judt from saying at least one word about the changes in the West, unless it’s the newest forbidden topic. What do you think?
From Judt’s article with my comments:
\\ In short: Israel, in the world’s eyes, […] is strong, very strong, but its behavior is making everyone else vulnerable.
Who is this “everybody else”, except Palestinians? Did he accept the view that Israel destabilizes the entire Middle East?
// the charge that criticism of Israel is implicitly anti-Semitic … encourages others to look upon Jews everywhere as de facto collaborators in Israel’s misbehavior.
If they are encouraged, they have already been antisemitic.
Since the time of writing of this article many things in the Middle East have changed. The following was heard on Israeli TV and I would be glad to hear your take on it:
* USA has been worried about the emerging connection between Egypt, Saudis, Jordan, Israel and parts of Libya since it is “pro-USA-BUT-without-USA”. Client states suddenly show they can organize themselves, and leave America out, not in the driving seat. –> I would love more of similar happen and Israel succeeding to become a fully accepted, not controversial part of the Middle East one day.
* The above connection is based on Israel joining part with moderate (Sunni, iirc) countries against radical group of Hamas, Syria and Iran. Hamas isn’t seen as a unique Palestinian movement as much as one of numerous radical Islamic movements, similar to ISIS. Many in the Arab world want Israel destroy Hamas, even if they don’t want to publicly side with Jews against other Muslims.
* Somebody accused USA of giving too much influence to Turkey and Qatar (Qatar gave money for Hamas’s weapons), in the ongoing Israeli/Palestinian negotiations, saying it’s part of Obama’s approach to Middle East, not a mistake as some claimed.
* Even Iran is furious at Hamas since it gave a lot of money for something big, not to see all tunnels being destroyed in one of usual cycles of violence. It was said that “something big” is connected to the fight for Iran’s nuclear program, but I haven’t understood how. May be, they meant “if Israel attacks Iran…”?
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It is a VERY taboo topic. I say “Muslims” and the room goes dead. And if I were to say “Arabs”, that would be a total end of the world. It’s similar to the reaction my students have to the word “black.” As Freud warned, the repressed tends to come back in a major way. The longer we are silent, the more likely is an explosion.
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The US is definitely leaving the driver’s seat and of its own accord, too. I don’t see the war in Iraq as the driving force behind that, like Judt does. The US has a long history of disastrous involvement overseas during the entire XXth century but the change is happening now. That is an issue that requires a long and much more profound analysis. Many people blame this on Obama’s personal preferences and his personality. This is why we need to see what happens when a new administration moves into the White House.
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This rings very true to me. My Tumblr dash is awash with the horrors the state of Israel inflicts on Palestinian civilians, but very very few of those posts ever suggest any way to help, contain or even link to what Palestinians have to say about this. It’s always this third-party horror that almost never leads to any sort of engagement with the victims.
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And the curious thing is that many of the people who post these articles could easily find Palestinians living next door to them.
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Just now heard on News: Hamas invested 40% of its budget in the tunnels during 4 years. You previously asked why Gazans are so poor compared to PA.
// Just let me interject once again that the idea that every ethnic group needs a separate country is not set in stone.
Who will accept Palestinians? Give one realistic idea. If nobody will, they need a country.
Some Israelis, who are against two states, say other Arab countries should accept them. I don’t see it, though:
Israeli Arab Journalist Khaled Abu Toameh and other commentators accuse Lebanon of practicing apartheid against Palestinian Arabs who have lived in Lebanon as stateless refugees since 1948. According to Human Rights Watch, “In 2001, Parliament passed a law prohibiting Palestinians from owning property, a right they had for decades.” […] One of the most severe restrictions is a ban on construction. This ban is enforced even in the Nahr al-Bared refugee camp, bombed by the Lebanese army in 2007.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians_in_Lebanon
Also, I hope if you see me being “brainwashed,” you would express your thoughts, not adopt “she is terrorised, let’s ignore her” approach. If I sometimes leave too many links, say too. I’ve been doing it lately because of the operation.
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“Who will accept Palestinians?”
– And herein lies the crux of the problem. People who would never consent to live next to Palestinians, let alone in a country with a Muslim majority, are passionately condemning Israelis for not wanting it either. This is rank hypocrisy.
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I would love to hear your thoughts about this very interesting article, on which I was asked to comment:
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/30/henry_siegman_leading_voice_of_us
Many things were known to me before, but not all. What I disagree about is the following:
“Couldn’t they have done something that didn’t require that cost? And the answer is: Sure, that they could have ended the occupation, with results—whatever the risks are, they certainly aren’t greater than the price being paid now for Israel’s effort to continue and sustain permanently their relationship to the Palestinians.”
Most Israelis think the risks are too great, infinitely greater than the current price. I am not sure whether they are wrong, unlike HENRY SIEGMAN.
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I don’t like these kinds of articles, I don’t see how they are contributing anything of value. See this:
“”Don’t judge your neighbor until you can imagine yourself in his place.” So, my first question when I deal with any issue related to the Israeli-Palestinian issue: What if we were in their place?
What if the situation were reversed, and the Jewish population were locked into, were told, “Here, you have less than 2 percent of Palestine, so now behave. No more resistance. And let us deal with the rest””
– What is the point of these ridiculous rhetorical devices? Jews have been in precisely this situation for millenia. Pale of fucking settlement, anybody?
“It so happens that in both international custom and international law, political parties, like Hamas, are not required or even ever asked to recognize states, whether they recognize a state or not. The question is whether the government of which they are a part and that makes policy and executes policy, whether that government is prepared to recognize other states.”
– And after this I stop reading because this is simply ridiculous. I have no idea who this guy is but, come on, a third-grader can produce a more insightful analysis.
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In the next part of interview, he refers to Israeli politics. I will only put a quote and except that he says nothing new there:
But a more important point to be made here—and this is why these distinctions are so dishonest—the state of Israel does not recognize a Palestinian state, which is to say there are parties in Netanyahu’s government—very important parties, not marginal parties—including his own, the Likud, that to this day has an official platform that does not recognize the right of Palestinians to have a state anywhere in Palestine. And, of course, you have Naftali Bennett’s party, the HaBayit HaYehudi, which says this openly, that there will never be a state, a Palestinian state, anywhere in Palestine. Why hasn’t our government or anyone said, “Like Hamas, if you have parties like that in your government, you are not a peace partner, and you are a terrorist group, if in fact you use violence to implement your policy, as Hamas does”? So the hypocrisy in the discussion that is taking place publicly is just mind-boggling.
…
The largest caucus, parliamentary caucus, in Israel’s Knesset is called the caucus of Eretz Yisrael HaShlema, which the Likud leads.
AMY GOODMAN: Explain that in English, “the land of Israel.”
HENRY SIEGMAN: An “eretz,” in English—in English, it means the whole land of Israel. This is a parliamentary caucus, the largest caucus in the Knesset, which is totally dedicated to not permit any government to establish a Palestinian state anywhere in the land of Israel, headed by Likud, senior Likud members of Knesset, and headed—a party that is headed by the prime minister of Israel. And what boggles the imagination is that no one talks about this, no one points this out, and no one says, “How can you take these positions via Hamas if this is exactly what is going on within your own government that you are heading?”
…
And so, into adulthood, not until well after the ’67 War, when I came across—and I got to know Rabin and others, and I came across a discussion in which I was told by Israelis, by the Israeli people who I was talking to, government, senior government people, that they had an initiative from Sadat about peace and withdrawal and so on. And Rabin said, “But clearly, the Israeli public is not prepared for that now.” And that hit me like a hammer. I always had this notion drilled into me that if only the Arabs were to reach out and be willing to live in peace with Israel, that would be the time of the Messiah. And the Messiah came, and the Israeli leadership said, “No, public opinion is not ready for that.” And I wrote a piece then in Moment magazine—if you recall, it was published by Leonard Fein—and he made it a cover story, and the title was, “For the Sake of Zion, I Will Not Remain Silent.” And that triggered my re-examination of things I had been told and what was going on on the ground.
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Prior to that, your sense had always been that if the Arabs reached out, there would be two states: Palestine and Israel.
HENRY SIEGMAN: I had no doubt about that. I mean, that was, you know, just a given, that we are sharing. The resolution said, you know, two states. The resolution, which Israel—the partition resolution, which Israel invoked in its Declaration of Independence, planted, rooted its legitimacy in that—it cited the Palestinian—the partition plan. But when someone these days says, “But there’s a partition plan that said that the rest of it, that was not assigned to Israel, is the legitimate patrimony of the Palestinian people,” the answer given is, “Ah, yeah, but they voted they would not accept it, and the partition plan was never officially adopted.” Well, why are you quoting it then in your Declaration of Independence, if you consider it to be null and void and not—anyway.
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And you are going to force me to read it whether I want to or not. 🙂
OK, OK, I’ll read it. 🙂
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Again, more empty verbiage. There is a big and obvious difference between not recognizing an existent state’s right to exist and a potential state. The ruling party in Canada doesn’t recognize the right of Quebec to exist. Ukraine doesn’t recognize the DNR. Spain doesn’t recognize Catalonia as a separate country. So what? Is anybody going to argue that there is no difference between DNR saying “Ukraine doesn’t have a right to exist” and Ukraine saying “DNR doesn’t have a right to exist”?
I do not believe that anything ever will be solved by this kind of discussions. And the fact that nothing has been solved after miles and miles if these discussions suggests that I’m right.
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// The ruling party in Canada doesn’t recognize the right of Quebec to exist. Ukraine doesn’t recognize the DNR. Spain doesn’t recognize Catalonia as a separate country.
Isn’t situation in Israel inherently different?
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I’m only addressing this specific statement that Hamas’s belief that Israel doesn’t have a right to exist is not a big deal. People are behaving as if Israel’s total withdrawal back to the pre-1968 borders will mean a stop to violence and terrorism in the region.
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// The immigration of Muslims into Western countries is booming.
OK, may be, it’s a stupid thought, but … Even if somebody doesn’t want Muslims coming to live next to him, if the immigration of Muslims is booming, why not organize and sign a petition demanding one’s government receives Palestinians *instead of* Muslims it will receive anyway? The total number of immigrants would remain the same.
On TV today: a member of a Left party says
“We should give Gazans something to lose in case of war. In PA they have normal lives and there is quiet. Why not agree to airport and a port in Gaza, and let international forces check no weapons are brought in?”
A member of a Right party:
“No international forces, only we and Egypt must check everything. And we’ve already tried this with Gaza in times of Oslo, it didn’t work. The problem isn’t with Hamas alone, it’s with Palestinian education system, venerating suicide bombers. We can’t base policy on wishful thinking and fantasies.” (You previously asked who the enemies are, Hamas or all Gazans.)
May be, that’s two political Israeli camps in a nutshell.
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Is the following also Israeli psychological warfare against its citizens?
Hamas’ mega-attack through Gaza terror tunnels exposed
According to Shin Bet source, terror organization aimed to send 200 fighters wearing IDF uniforms to sieze kibbutzim while killing and kidnapping civilians
…
Hamas had been preparing a murderous massive assault on Israeli civilian targets during the upcoming Jewish New Year holiday, Rosh Hashanah
…
In total, thousands of Hamas terrorists would have been swarming across Israel, wearing IDF uniforms, which would have further complicated an Israeli response. Reports further indicate that Hezbollah may have planned to join the attack as well, opening another front in the north.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4550733,00.html
I can’t believe it’s all a government’s fantasy to frighten me. The tunnels are real, after all. Who invests years and enormous budgets into building them, without expecting great returns? I don’t think Hamas is *that* stupid.
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“I can’t believe it’s all a government’s fantasy to frighten me.”
Remember the Iraq war? WMDs ring a bell? Terror alerts? Dirty bombs? Suitcase bombs? “But, but my government is special and would never lie to me”.
” I don’t think Hamas is *that* stupid.”
No, but you are.
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SB, before this announcement of my government, some of the terrorists who entered my country via tunnels during this operation wore IDF clothes. In your eyes, what was the purpose of opening tunnels several hundred meters from kibbutzim? I am not USA citizen and Iraq war doesn’t ring a bell that much. However, I am sure you were not finding WMD near your homes. Tell me what I should think about those tunnels to be a smart person. You blame Israel and me for everything, but never answer any of my questions. The question is serious, not sarcastic.
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SB, one more thing which my gov has not told me. I thought about it myself. When IDF began working on tunnels, the probability of caring out a kidnapping via them went dramatically down. That’s why I tend to believe Hamas would not waste them for something small. After all, murders of 3 teens and numerous terror acts before were done without tunnels.
Also, Hamas was in a horrible position before this round. And not only because of Israel.
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I meant that because of horrible position Hamas would attack Israel soon, even without murder of 3 teens and everything that followed. Attack means more than before since between rounds rockets are shot, only in smaller quantities and not at Tel Aviv.
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Last comment for now. You are right that I can’t know whether this terror act had been planned for Jewish New Year. But, taking into account that no peace is in sight, those tunnels would have been used sooner or later. And following the described by my gov plan seems the most effective, unless you can propose a better strategy for Hamas in this matter. I am glad tunnels are being destroyed before rather than after this attack.
For now, Israel has no Iron Dome for tunnels. People begin to ask questions why not, and it looks like gov’s mistake. But a system is being developed and probably already tested. It is said within a few years we may already have it.
Returning to the topic “Terrorist act – yes or no?”
It is also true that we had Hamas / Fatah unity gov. However, it had been tried numerous times before and had always been short lived. One day, and I bet quite soon, it would have fallen apart. It is 100% true, unless you say we had been close to peace agreement with both parties ready to sign it. Btw, part of reasons negotiations for initial cease-fire , which began this morning for 72 hours, had been so long was the inability for Fatah and Hamas to agree on conditions for initial cease fire. Initial, not final one marking the end of this round.
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I don’t know Clarissa. Let’s imagine if someone wrote this about South Africa 30 years ago.
“Western governments are protesting against apartheid because of collective guilt from treating black people so badly in their own countries. It’s superficial, it doesn’t cost them anything, it’s hypocritical, so we shouldn’t do it”.
I don’t understand why the motive for doing everything has to be 100% pure, noble, Clarissa-approved. If there’s even a tiny smattering of hypocrisy in any action, it should be abandoned immediately. Do you think the black South Africans gave a shit whether your motives were pure or not? International pressure was applied and the South African government had to bend.
You ignored my comment in a different post on how Twitter and facebook are actually changing the media landscape in this country. You can create vile caricatures of western liberals all you want. It’s pure deflection.
In the other thread you wrote:
“If the mass media were inundated with, “Russian terrorists have invaded Ukraine. There is no such thing as Ukrainian separatists,” I would be looking for a different angle on that issue.”
The mass media here is inundated with pro-Israel messages ALL the time. Bibi comes to DC during and after each mass slaughter, gets on all Sunday political talk shows, gets to spew his mouth-turds, and leaves without a single opposing viewpoint.
I think you have your work cut out.
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“Western governments are protesting against apartheid because of collective guilt from treating black people so badly in their own countries.”.
– It’s completely true, though. And notice how nobody is even remotely interested in the horrors taking place in South Africa today. It’s served its purpose and now the only message anybody hears about South Africa in the West is self-congratulations. And it all sounds like the black Africans just sat there in silence, waiting to be benefited by the West, which is obviously not true. So yes, I think it would be great if there were voices that engaged in something other than self-congratulation on the issue. It doesn’t mean that the fight against apartheid was wrong. But it shouldn’t become a sacred object that nobody dares to analyze.
“International pressure was applied and the South African government had to bend.”
– The South African government gave up, first and foremost, because of the heroic struggle of the Africans themselves.
“You ignored my comment in a different post on how Twitter and facebook are actually changing the media landscape in this country.”
– I guess I don’t find the medial landscape in this country either interesting or significant.
“The mass media here is inundated with pro-Israel messages ALL the time.”
– On Fox News, yes. On the Rush Limbaugh show, too. But I’m not seeing that anywhere else.
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Stringer Bell, let’s get it straight. You grew up in India, in a family that hated and disdained Muslims with passion. And now, instead of really helping Palestinians, say sending generous donations to their charities or going there as a U.N. volunteer you just live in comfort here, in the U.S. and keep blabbing how bad Israel is.
On top of that you called el, who lives in Israel in constant danger stupid. She is not.
You are stupid and pathetic.
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Alexandra, we do not know. May be, he is sending donations. Lets not call him names. The one thing I would like to get from him is, for a change, proposal of his plan of action, instead of only criticizing Israel. How can Israel deal with Hamas in Gaza? What to do with the tunnels?
How can both my security and Palestinian desires be achieved?
That’s The Question I would love to get SB answer. Of course, not only SB, but anybody with ideas.
I would not call Obama as siding with Hamas. On Israeli TV one hears quite often criticism of Bush’s policies. He demanded democratic elections in Gaza, Israel complied and Hamas won. See what we have now in Gaza vs PA. Btw, Abu Mazen was supposed to have elections, be voted out of office or stay there, years ago. Israel does a lot to strengthen him, but our Right criticises the results and says he has no power or desire to sign a peace agreement.
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“How can both my security and Palestinian desires be achieved?”
– If only anybody knew! The tragedy is that it seems like neither the Israeli government nor Hamas are interested in the safety of the people. And I mean, all people.
That story about the professor is extremely disturbing because this kind of extreme policing of speech is sign that worse things are coming. And I’ve never hoped to be wrong as much as I am on this. Is the story getting further coverage in Israel? Are there people who are denouncing the persecution of the professor?
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Our government has betrayed one of our best allies, Israel. Instead of condemning Hamas, terrorist organization that calls for destruction of Israel, for killing all the Jews in the world, for killing Christians, that uses women and children as human shields Obama sides with it.
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Why wouldn’t Obama be against Israel? Didn’t you know he is a Kenyan Socialist Mooslim? Wasn’t even born here. 😦
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Soldier kidnapped in Rafah, in attack by Hamas during truce; IDF hunting for him
US-UN plan for 72-hour ceasefire and talks falls apart, as Hamas breaches truce with Rafah attack and kidnapping; after five soldiers killed Thursday, IDF death toll rises to 61
http://www.timesofisrael.com/day-25-us-slams-indefensible-israeli-strike-pa-could-press-war-crimes-charges/
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More info:
“IDF fear Second Lieutenant Hadar Goldin was kidnapped after suicide bomber attacks forces working to clear tunnels in Gaza Friday morning; Hamas: Attack took place before ceasefire – event still ongoing.”
Don’t think it matters whether he is a simple soldier or an officer.
If he isn’t found, after the operation’s end, innocent civilians of Gaza will have a huge selebration. Hamas’s position will be strengthened.
In such times, one wishes more than ever for solution and peace. I don’t believe (never did) in “Hamas kidnapped inocent Gazans” narrative. However, if you do believe in most of the following:
Hamas has no morality proven by the fact of the using of civilians as human shelters, by the cruelty towards their own people (whom I pity!) and by strategies meant to deteriorate as much as possible the climate for peace agreements. They do not “fight” for the Arabs in Gaza, they fight for third parties agenda, those who sponsor them and who, through them, want to have a strategic point at Mediterana.
Then, the only way to stop endless cycles of violence between Israel and Gaza (notice, not PA!) and improve lives of simple Gazans is to destroy Hamas, as Israeli Right claims. Whether by one huge operation, lasting probably more than a year, or by doing everything to lower Hamas’s influence during numerous years. Naturally, both tactics would hurt all Gazans and the latter tactic is already making life there horrible. Based on my PM’s words from several days ago, I believe he is following the latter strategy.
If most Gazans support Hamas (my opinion), then one can’t use “innocent victims” argument.
Don’t know what to do, honestly. As some offer, “lets negotiate with Hamas, improve life in Gaza, and then Hamas will become moderate,” — Clarissa, would you believe it?
OR understand that Hamas won’t become more moderate and think about tactics.
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“If he isn’t found, after the operation’s end, innocent civilians of Gaza will have a huge selebration. ”
– Like you wouldn’t in their place, honestly?
“As some offer, “lets negotiate with Hamas, improve life in Gaza, and then Hamas will become moderate,” — Clarissa, would you believe it?”
– If it’s true that life in PA is significantly better – I don’t know personally, this is new information to me – then there is definitely a hope of making things better. Maybe a huge investment of money to make Hamas irrelevant to people.
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// – Like you wouldn’t in their place, honestly?
Can’t say I wouldn’t.
Now have been watching a half-hour movie about how Hamas abuses Gazan population: kills any resistance and sometimes prevents citizens from leaving, despite Israeli warnings of future battle in the area. Some people would probably call it Israeli propaganda. One of figures there was Col. Richard Kemp CBE, a former commander of British troops in Afghanistan. He doesn’t see any solutions, except endless costly military operations. In this interview, he expresses his views on why XYZ wouldn’t work:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/a-supportive-british-colonel-and-a-bleak-vision-of-endless-costly-military-operations/
// Maybe a huge investment of money to make Hamas irrelevant to people.
Then, this money must not pass through Hamas’s hands, which is what Israel demanded to happen after the end of the current operation. Otherwise, giving Hamas money would strengthen its position and a huge part of it would go to buy new weapons.
Found this article:
Israel pushes West Bank toward economic disaster
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/05/israel-hamas-palestinian-authority-economy-collapse-boycott.html#
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“Then, this money must not pass through Hamas’s hands, which is what Israel demanded to happen after the end of the current operation. Otherwise, giving Hamas money would strengthen its position and a huge part of it would go to buy new weapons.”
– Of course. People who say they think Hamas is interested in peaceful coexistence in Israel always strike me as very deluded.
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“What Judt is refusing to notice is that something has changed in the West to make this change of attitude towards Israel unavoidable and necessary – to the West. The immigration of Muslims into Western countries is booming.”
Look, look, the objet petit a you cherish is the canary those awful men threw down into the coal mine! You must send a rescue team immediately to save that canary! 🙂
Meanwhile, the canary quizzically asks, “Why must it always be my role to descend into the depths of your crises, and why must I always be rescued from your incompetence?”
I maintain my Modest Proposal stance: let’s find a way to profit from these parties being dishonest about their contracts, until a time when they won’t have quite so many resources left to express their politics by direct action. Perhaps the grand theft of wealth I am implicitly advocating can be used to promote peace somewhere else.
TEAR DOWN THIS WALL
(it’s in the way of the AT-4s and mortars, and that’s making the arms merchants nervous about future sales)
🙂
Why stop the war when you can have your own bespoke-tailored war that delivers funds directly deposited to your current accounts?
[sneering a Machiavellian sneer from the Coalition of State Aggression that will eventually replace National Departments of Defence] 🙂
Yes, yes, I know, this is awful, but you’ll like it better this way … trust me.
[smiles a Joe Isuzu smile] 🙂
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// That story about the professor is extremely disturbing because this kind of extreme policing of speech is sign that worse things are coming.
I am less disturbed since Bar Ilan university is officially defined as a religious university, unlike others. It is traditionally Right wing (both most students and many professors). I got the impression it is the most Right wing university in Israel, with possible exception of the new Ariel university “located in the Israeli settlement of Ariel in the West Bank … founded in 1982 as a regional branch of Bar-Ilan University.”
// Is the story getting further coverage in Israel? Are there people who are denouncing the persecution of the professor?
It hasn’t been a big story on the two news websites I visit. I understand your fears intellectually, but on the level of feelings … Try to understand too: who can care about this professor, when we have 61 dead and a kidnapped officer? I can’t care about him right now, honestly.
The thing is there is nothing new in this story, and the general public opinion it expresses is something potentially to care about. During war, patriotism, emotions and hatred raise sky-high from both sides. For instance:
Workplaces discipline Israeli Arabs for Facebook posts against Gaza incursion
Haaretz 23 July by Or Kashti, Eli Ashkenazi and Nir Hasson — Doctor, nurse and two municipal employees fired or suspended — Lod Mayor Yair Revivo fired an Arab municipal worker Tuesday for expressing joy over the death of 13 Israeli soldiers in the Gaza Strip, making her the fourth Israeli Arab in recent days to be disciplined at the workplace for posting comments on Facebook against Israel and its operation in Gaza. … An Arab nurse was suspended from the state-owned Sheba Medical Center in Tel Hashomer on Tuesday for writing on his Facebook page that IDF soldiers are war criminals. “Even in times of peace, and not only during a justified war to defend the home front, the false accusation that IDF soldiers are war criminals is totally unacceptable, especially from an employee of the State of Israel,” said the hospital’s director general, Dr. Zeev Rotstein. Describing his hospital as “an island of tolerance,” Rotstein said couldn’t accept “such a crude attack on this value, especially at this time, when the entire hospital has mobilized to treat soldiers and civilians, as well as ill and injured Palestinians from the Gaza Strip.” … In Jerusalem, Dr. Haitham Rajabi, a specialist in emergency medicine, was suspended from Shaare Zedek Medical Center after calling Israel Defense Forces soldiers “murderers” on his Facebook page. Rajabi also posted a picture of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu dressed as a vampire alongside a dead Palestinian child .. .Meanwhile, the Safed municipality suspended an Arab sanitation worker from the Galilee town of Deir al-Assad on Monday for writing on his Facebook page: “Zionism is the enemy of humanity. We are all Palestine — liberated Palestine.” He is awaiting a pre-dismissal hearing.
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/palestinian-detained-following.html
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“It hasn’t been a big story on the two news websites I visit. I understand your fears intellectually, but on the level of feelings … Try to understand too: who can care about this professor, when we have 61 dead and a kidnapped officer? I can’t care about him right now, honestly.”
– It isn’t about the specific professor but about the freedom of speech. I’m sad for the officer but soldiers subscribe to these things by going to war. War means death and suffering, it just does. Again, I’m obviously not celebrating this.
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“On Fox News, yes. On the Rush Limbaugh show, too. But I’m not seeing that anywhere else.”
You really have a perception problem. Or you’re seeing what you want to see.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/31/american-media-israel-bias-netanyahu
Shameful silence from MSNBC, the ‘liberal’ cable news channel.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/some-of-msnbcs-most-prominent-journalists-are-ignoring-gaza-why/
As for putin love in this country’s media:
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Stringer Bell, it would be very interesting at this point to hear what your vision of how the conflict might be resolved is. What should happen ideally from your point or view?
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And look, you are saying it’s important to get the word out, spread the message, so why not do just that? This is a very popular blog and if you want to write a guest post – even a very long one – I will be happy to publish it. I think this will be valuable and productive.
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That’s an unfair burden on me, given that nobody here, including you, has attempted to outline their vision. You’ve just tut-tutted at criticism of Israel, that’s it.
Israel should start by treating Palestinians like human beings. You can’t stuff people in a tiny area, not allow them freedom of movement, choke their economy, control all ingress and egress, and not expect some sort of resistance coming out of the ghetto. Start negotiating with the enemy you have, not the enemy you wish you had. Who the fuck knows if the violence is going to stop 100% if Israel reverts to 1967 borders, but it HAS to be better than what it is now. The status quo will ONLY breed more violence.
Note that I’m not talking about occupying ‘their’ land. Like you say, discussing who has ownership of the land is futile. But the reality is that both parties want to live in the area, so THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE but to find a way to live together. Doesn’t matter whose land it is. As the occupying power, Israel HAS to initiate any negotiations.
All these military operations have failed. But Israel keeps repeating this. So what’s the plan, kill 1200 palestinians every 2 years, and by the year 2200 finally get rid of the population?
Either kill all Palestinians, or start negotiating. There’s nothing else left to do.
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“You can’t stuff people in a tiny area, not allow them freedom of movement, choke their economy, control all ingress and egress, and not expect some sort of resistance coming out of the ghetto.”
– Agree completely.
“Who the fuck knows if the violence is going to stop 100% if Israel reverts to 1967 borders, but it HAS to be better than what it is now.”
– Can you imagine anybody engaging in such a major change while guided by “Who the fuck knows?”
“The status quo will ONLY breed more violence.”
– Agree completely. However – what if more violence is exactly what all interested parties want? (And by all interested parties I obviously don’t mean the civilians each of whom sees his or her only life being consumed by this horror.)
“But the reality is that both parties want to live in the area, so THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE but to find a way to live together. Doesn’t matter whose land it is.”
– Agreed, agreed, agreed.
“All these military operations have failed. But Israel keeps repeating this. So what’s the plan, kill 1200 palestinians every 2 years”
– I think so, yes. I hate to keep saying it, but I think this is being done for the process and the benefits derived from the process.
“Either kill all Palestinians, or start negotiating. There’s nothing else left to do.”
– Or drag the situation out as it is right now for a long long time to come. Tragically, I can’t avoid believing that this is the goal. :-((((((( And please understand that I’m not celebrating this.
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// This is a very popular blog and if you want to write a guest post – even a very long one – I will be happy to publish it.
That’s exactly what I wanted to offer and have been wishing for for a long time!
This week’s Uri column (published before the kidnapping was known)
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1406902487
Btw, read this recently:
Hamas killed hundreds of children in the construction of its extensive tunnel network, built partly to carry out attacks on children across the Gaza border in Israel. That report–confirmed by Hamas itself–emerged in 2012, not from the Israeli government, but the sympathetic Journal of Palestine Studies, in an article that otherwise celebrated the secret tunnel system as a symbol of Palestinian resistance to the Israeli “siege” of the Gaza Strip.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/27/Report-Hamas-Used-Child-Labor-to-Build-Tunnels-Hundreds-Died
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“That’s exactly what I wanted to offer and have been wishing for for a long time!”
– You can write one, too.
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// You can’t stuff people in a tiny area, not allow them freedom of movement, choke their economy, control all ingress and egress, and not expect some sort of resistance coming out of the ghetto. … The status quo will ONLY breed more violence.
Agreed. We, Israeli government and society, must think carefully about the necessary changes.
// Who the fuck knows if the violence is going to stop 100% if Israel reverts to 1967 borders, but it HAS to be better than what it is now.
Can you give any rational, logical reasons to support this statement? I understand the feelings of needing to do something, anything, but statesmen must not further endanger their people on a whim. I even share those feelings, but don’t think one should follow them unthinkingly.
Sometimes doing nothing is the best option for now. This has been the case with Syria. Some in Israel supported returning the Golan Heights for a peace agreement with Asad. Had we done that, Syrian civil war would’ve been much closer to our citizens. And who knows which countries will be created after the fall of Asad’s regime.
Israeli Right and parts of Left fear reverting to 1967 borders would *increase* the number of dead Israelis, unless XYZ conditions are fulfilled by the other side. Israel being stronger doesn’t mean it must be ready to give everything for nothing, other side must be ready to negotiate too and give some proofs.
You also make a basic mistake by not taking into account the influence of time. Our politicians think time is working *for* us. For instance, Israel has better connections with Egypt and several other Muslim countries than before. (Those countries are also anti-Hamas.) Btw, the Left thinks it creates a potential for real future peace negotiations with Abbas.
You can’t demand from me to be ready to risk my life, if even outlining a vision is “an unfair burden” on you. My PM thinks this vision simply doesn’t exist for now, that the conflict can only be managed for the foreseeable future, that one can’t have peace with Hamas in power. Unless you can offer something better, calling me stupid and blood-thirsty is good only for one’s psychological hygiene, not for proving anything.
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“Can you give any rational, logical reasons to support this statement?”
Let’s assume that doesn’t happen. Let’s assume an independent Palestine state lobs unprovoked rockets at Israel. Isn’t that the most legitimate reason for war? Who would question it? I would completely support Israel defending itself by any means in this situation. Such a no-brainer.
“Israel being stronger doesn’t mean it must be ready to give everything for nothing, other side must be ready to negotiate too and give some proofs. ”
I’m just saying Israel needs to at least start negotiating. At least come to the fucking table. Who said anything about Israel ‘giving everything for nothing’?
“You also make a basic mistake by not taking into account the influence of time. Our politicians think time is working *for* us”
Exactly. And it’s nothing to be celebrated. Saying that committing war crimes is really working out for us is not really an argument. Someone mugs me in an alley, takes my wallet, and then proudly reflects, ‘Well, that clearly worked out for me. Why should I stop doing this?’
“You can’t demand from me to be ready to risk my life, if even outlining a vision is “an unfair burden” on you.”
I just wrote what I thought. Negotiate. Talk.
http://972mag.com/when-will-we-get-it-palestinians-are-fighting-for-their-freedom/94778/
I’m sorry for calling you stupid. It really gets to me how you’re so callous sometimes about killing people. Maybe it’s a language issue, and you don’t have the right words, but it’s really jarring how casual you are about murder.
“Hey clarissa, I think we should bomb Iran. What do you think?”
Seriously, wtf.
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“Can you imagine anybody engaging in such a major change while guided by “Who the fuck knows?””
Of course not. Poor choice of words. What I meant was, and what I clarified in my reply to el was:
Let’s assume an independent Palestine state lobs unprovoked rockets at Israel. Isn’t that the most legitimate reason for war? Who would question it? I would completely support Israel defending itself by any means in this situation. Such a no-brainer.
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“Let’s assume an independent Palestine state lobs unprovoked rockets at Israel. Isn’t that the most legitimate reason for war? Who would question it? I would completely support Israel defending itself by any means in this situation.”
– You really do seem to think that this kind of support should be a decisive factor in Israel’s actions. And I do find this very bizarre. Do you really imagine the Israeli government saying, ‘Ok, let’s go to the enormous effort of going back to the pre-68 borders, and then if there are any more acts of terrorism, some foreigners will express support for us’?
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“Ok, let’s go to the enormous effort of going back to the pre-68 borders, and then if there are any more acts of terrorism, some foreigners will express support for us’?”
Some foreigners? Umm, you have the world’s most powerful nation giving unconditional support to Israel for war crimes. You’d have to be delusional to think that the US will let anything happen to Israel in a situation where, for a change, Israel has the moral high ground.
Do you personally reject a two state solution? I know you’ve said that it’s not possible anymore, but I would really like to know what you’d like in an ideal world. Given that none of the parties is interested in leaving the area, what sort of a compromise would you strike? What would make you go ‘Well, that’s fair enough’?
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“You’d have to be delusional to think that the US will let anything happen to Israel in a situation where, for a change, Israel has the moral high ground.”
– The US is extremely interested in having a constant conflict going on in the region. And we are seeing the results of that.
“Do you personally reject a two state solution? I know you’ve said that it’s not possible anymore, but I would really like to know what you’d like in an ideal world.”
– Ideally, of course, I think that would be phenomenal. But I’m looking at the map, and it seems less and less likely every day. But ideally, yes, two-state solution is great. Don’t you agree it would be great to see Palestinians achieve statehood?
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And I have to say, the most obnoxious thing about Americans is their pathological need to make everything about themselves.
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// – You can write one, too.
I don’t have one for now. If I get any ideas, will share.
Btw, I have never really thought about logistics. Turns out, logistically, it’s even more difficult than I imagined. Look at the map where Gaza is and where PA is. To create any kind of viable Palestinian state, huge transfers of populations seem to be necessary. I heard talks in Israel about creating a secure corridor to connect between PA and Gaza, but it sounds weird. Who has seen such countries? In India it ended with transfers of populations. In Israeli Left paper I have recently read about Three State Solution. Seems to be even less realistic.
// Let’s assume that doesn’t happen. Let’s assume an independent Palestine state lobs unprovoked rockets at Israel. Isn’t that the most legitimate reason for war?
SB, a country will 100% get first class (anti-plane and other) rockets, which our Iron Dome may not be ready to deal with; air force and navy; chemical weapons and so on. Hamas’s capacities now can’t be compared to those of a country, but they already would be able to close Ben-Gurion airport, had they been in PA. Recently, a Hamas member threatened to do exactly that on Palestinian radio.
Lets look at today. Israeli south has been living under Hamas’s rocket fire for 14 years, even in times of “peace.” Israel doesn’t begin operations, let alone wars, because of one rocket … or 2 … or 10. You speak as if deciding on a war is so easy. And what if after the war with the new country they start shooting again?
I remembered this excerpt from an anti-Israel post:
Yet clearly they cannot grant true autonomy to the West Bank and Gaza Strip because of simple geography — the West Bank controls Tel Aviv’s water supply, while true military forces such as an autonomous state would develop cannot be allowed in Gaza because many of Israel’s nuclear facilities are within shooting distance of Gaza if the Palestinians had real artillery and real aimable rockets rather than the unaimed garbage-can makeshift bottle rockets they’re shooting off right now.
And decided to do a quick search. Here, a very short and fascinating info from Bar Ilan university:
The Map of Water Resources
http://www.biu.ac.il/Besa/books/maps/mapwater.htm
Does it mean that if a war starts, Israeli central cities have no water? (Or polluted water sources? Don’t think will happen, if their water would be polluted too.)
// “Hey clarissa, I think we should bomb Iran. What do you think?”
May be, I said something without thinking there. I don’t say one can’t accuse me of being callous, but that’s not the example.
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// I’m just saying Israel needs to at least start negotiating. At least come to the fucking table.
To talk intelligently about the issue, one probably should study in depth previous failed negotiations and analyze the reasons for failure. I haven’t done that so far. If you are interested in the topic, may be, you would study in depth and then write a post about it?
Here I found an article:
‘There was no generous offer’: A history of peace talks
http://972mag.com/on-palestinian-positions-israeli-pundits-are-all-spin/90137/
And then 4th comment by “Rab” presents the opposite view.
Partly, it’s my limitations. Partly, lack of unbiased information. But the more I read such materials, the more confused I become. May be, reading documents themselves and what both sides say (preferrably to know Arabic and Hebrew, but there is Google translate, at least) would help.
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“But ideally, yes, two-state solution is great. Don’t you agree it would be great to see Palestinians achieve statehood?”
Yes. I’m guessing you don’t want 1967 borders, though. Something in between?
“And I have to say, the most obnoxious thing about Americans is their pathological need to make everything about themselves.”
Not sure what you’re referring to here, but what’s the point of being #1 if you can’t rub it in everyone’s faces?
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““And I have to say, the most obnoxious thing about Americans is their pathological need to make everything about themselves.”
Not sure what you’re referring to here, but what’s the point of being #1 if you can’t rub it in everyone’s faces?”
– I’m so sorry, I was so angered by the discussion in the other thread that I mistakenly posted the comment here. I apologize.
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“Yes. I’m guessing you don’t want 1967 borders, though. Something in between?”
– It isn’t like I would personally oppose the pre-67 borders, if such an agreement were reached. I just don’t see that happening at all, so what’s the point of discussing this?
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// You really do seem to think that this kind of support should be a decisive factor in Israel’s actions.
Reminded me of today’s film about Hamas’s abuse of Palestinians. Different people were presented with the following dilemma:
To prevent even more deaths of Palestinian civilians, Israel can’t use air-force in many cases and must send foot soldiers into Gaza, endangering their lives.
“Tzipi” Livni – a current Minister of Justice of Israel – said (forgot exactly what) something about it being necessary both for moral and for political reasons.
A pilot said targetting a launching site on a roof, when there were children around the house, wouldn’t be done. However, if he saw rockets being fired into Israel right then, it would’ve been bombed anyway.
Somebody else said how important staying moral was for us, not for the world.
Then two mothers of soldiers were asked the same question. Both answered that we shouldn’t care about lives of Palestinians more than about lives of our soldiers. That politicians should think about their sons’ lives and not about being able to travel to Europe. That we will be accused of war crimes anyway, so at least we should get something out of it.
Don’t know how relevant it was that both of them were religious, if at all. (Religious people tend to Right.)
Our PM is much better for Palestinians (minimizing the number of their dead civilians) than an average mother, in my opinion. And before one wants to jump and accuse Israelis of being callous, ask yourself – would you be different, had your children being fighting in Gaza?
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“To prevent even more deaths of Palestinian civilians, Israel can’t use air-force in many cases and must send foot soldiers into Gaza, endangering their lives.
“Tzipi” Livni – a current Minister of Justice of Israel – said (forgot exactly what) something about it being necessary both for moral and for political reasons.”
– Since we are being sincere here, I personally would much rather prefer an open “Let’s go kill all those bastards and wrap their guts around our necks” discourse to this very blatant and condescending form of manipulation.
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“Our PM is much better for Palestinians (minimizing the number of their dead civilians) than an average mother, in my opinion.”
I give up.
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““Our PM is much better for Palestinians (minimizing the number of their dead civilians) than an average mother, in my opinion.”
I give up.”
– Before we all get upset, let’s remember yesterday’s post about Soviet mothers and see this comment in that light.
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// ask yourself – would you be different, had your children being fighting in Gaza?
Ask also, what would Palestinian mothers say.
// Somebody else said how important staying moral was for us, not for the world.
Meaning: we should stay moral for our own sake.
// You’d have to be delusional to think that the US will let anything happen to Israel in a situation where, for a change, Israel has the moral high ground.
If you think Israeli moral ground would lead to growing USA’s support … 🙂
An average Israeli would burst with laughter at the idea of depending on USA to protect us. Look how well it has worked for Ukraine.
Israel is valuable to America *precisely* because of our strength. If we become weaker, after a certain point, America would let the ship sink and invest into somebody else.
Especially now, when USA lessens its involvement abroad, depending on it to exist or even “merely” lead tolerable lives seems very stupid and suicidal.
Clarissa, via Ian Welsh’s blog, I read the comment:
“The two state solution is dead.
So too is the one state solution. It’s clear Palestinians and Israelis aren’t ever going to peacefully coexist in that small space, and it’s clear the Palestinians will disproportionately suffer more than the Israelis as a result of this seemingly intractable, eternal conflict. Pursuant to that, my plan will help alleviate the immediate and gruesome disproportionate suffering of the Palestinians and ultimately end the conflict. You can get on board with it or you can “resist” it and condemn the Palestinians to an eternal existence of hopelessness and desperate suffering.”
And the post – only the part starting with photo of my PM and Obama is relevant – I was interested to the reactions of Palestinian supporters to “lets bring them to Europe”, which are quoted and responded to there:
http://catcherinthelie.wordpress.com/2014/07/25/its-time-we-had-that-talk/
Would love to hear your opinions.
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“Israel is valuable to America *precisely* because of our strength. ”
– Not in the least. Israel is valuable because it can be relied upon to be the epicenter of an endless conflict in the region.
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// – Since we are being sincere here, I personally would much rather prefer an open “Let’s go kill all those bastards and wrap their guts around our necks” discourse to this very blatant and condescending form of manipulation.
My manipulation or Livni’s? I have posted the comment since I wanted to show the opinion of many ‘people on the street’ on that matter, as a reference to SB’s position “more of you will die, but the world will support you.” Show what many Israelis think about that.
Before posting, I knew people would react hard to it and probably misunderstand my reason for posting. It’s not to manipulate anybody into “go kill all those bastards”. It’s to show what many people think in practice. It’s not pretty, but one should confront unpleasant realities to understand the situation. Let alone, offer solutions.
// “Our PM is much better for Palestinians (minimizing the number of their dead civilians) than an average mother, in my opinion.”
I give up.
A pity. There is so much ugliness on both sides of the conflict that to gain any understanding one must be ready to confront it. Not to ignore it, when “your” side commits it. Doesn’t matter which of the two sides “your” is.
I honestly think if you asked an average mother of IDF foot soldier “should we bomb from air, or your son will go there?”, she would first think about her child. It doesn’t mean it is moral. And doesn’t mean I think our government should behave so!
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“Before posting, I knew people would react hard to it and probably misunderstand my reason for posting. It’s not to manipulate anybody into “go kill all those bastards”.”
– You are misunderstanding me. I meant that the documentary you described used emotional manipulation of the “we kill but only in a morally justified way.” I personally – and this is just me – would prefer to be addressed with a direct “Let’s kill ’em all!” In terms of the Ukrainian conflict, for instance, I detest those idiots who insist that the Ukrainian army isn’t killing anybody and all casualties are at the hands of the terrorists. And such idiots do exist.
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Completely unrelated. Obama says ‘We tortured some folks after 9/11’.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/01/us-usa-cia-obama-idUSKBN0G14YY20140801
i’ve never been able to understand the pervasive belief in all corners of the earth that Obama is an eloquent speaker.
“We did a whole lot of things that were right, but we tortured some folks. We did some things that were contrary to our values,”
No biggie, just tortured some ‘folks’. Jesus Christ.
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“i’ve never been able to understand the pervasive belief in all corners of the earth that Obama is an eloquent speaker.”
– Have you heard Bush Jr speak? A door knob sounds eloquent after him. But I agree about Obama. I was floored by his, ‘This looks like it might have been a tragedy” after the MH 17 was shot down. “Tortured some folks” is also extremely disturbing. It just sounds so flippant.
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// Israel is valuable because it can be relied upon to be the epicenter of an endless conflict in the region.
“The epicenter is the point where an earthquake or underground explosion originates.”
But the entire Middle East is unstable without Israel.
I haven’t thought you support “Israel is the cause of Middle East instability” crowd.
// used emotional manipulation of the “we kill but only in a morally justified way.”
I thought the manipulation was “lets start killing in a less justified way.”
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Russian speaking Israeli gives his take on the current situation:
http://puerrtto.livejournal.com/606227.html
From comments:
– а Нетаньягу со всеми этими махинациями не беспокоит имидж в мире – его лично и имидж Израиля? Европейцы вроде как протестуют например. Или это уже всем приелось и для всего мира эти перманентные маневры вроде как в порядке вещей?
– Европейцам пофиг. Митингуют арабские мигранты, при этом каждый митинг оборачивается беспорядками и погромами магазинов и автомобилей. Это в какой-то мере даже в интересах Израиля, поскольку таким поведением арабы вызывают больше ненависти у европейцев, чем даже до демонстраций.
// Before we all get upset, let’s remember yesterday’s post about Soviet mothers and see this comment in that light.
What is the difference between Soviet mothers and Jewish ones? There is a Hebrew expression “Polish mother” referring to over-protectiveness of Polish Jewish mothers. For some reason, she is Polish, not Eastern 🙂
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“What is the difference between Soviet mothers and Jewish ones?”
– There are big differences between Russian and Ukrainian mothers as well (within the same diseased model.) But I’d say that Soviet Jewish mothers cripple you with their love while Soviet non-Jewish mothers cripple you with their lack of love.
I don’t want to be negative but I literally never saw a healthy mother-child relationship in the post-Soviet societies. Obviously, I only see the reality I’m prepared to see. 🙂 It’s funny, though, because my great-grandmother (Jewish) was a horrible mother to her daughter. But the best great-grandmother in the universe to me. My grandmother (Jewish) was a very problematic mother to my Dad but the most phenomenal, sage grandma to me. (I don’t know anybody of the older generations on the Ukrainian side.) I think it’s because different qualities are needed to be a parent than to be a grandparent.
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Good God. When do we start talking about cutting our lawn?
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The United Nations slammed Israel for possibly committing war crimes in its fight against Hamas … The U.N. group listed among its reasons for making that claim that Israel outright refused to share its Iron Dome with the “governing authority” of Gaza — which is Hamas. Ms. Pillay, U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, also condemned the United States for helping to fund the Iron Dome for Israel, but not granting any such accommodations to those in Gaza.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/1/un-condemns-israel-us-not-sharing-iron-dome-hamas/
On Israeli site I read that Iron Dome wouldn’t protect against Israeli war planes, which bomb Gaza. To grant the protection required by UN Israel would have to supply anti-plane missiles to Hamas.
Btw, an English grammar question:
I tend to say “To grant the required by UN protection” since that’s how it’s said in Russian (?), but in English one should say “To grant the protection required by UN “? Only if there is one word, as in “required protection”, it may be put before the noun?
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The “governing authority” of Gaza could also build bomb shelters for their population, instead of investing concrete only in building tunnels. If they are governing authority, why is *nothing* demanded from them by UN?
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// – I think so, yes. I hate to keep saying it, but I think this is being done for the process and the benefits derived from the process.
Benefits of settling more land meanwhile and controlling water resources, among other things? Of not fearing worse aggression from a Palestinian state with a real army? Inner politics – not going against parts of Israeli population, some of which could even become violent if real peace agreement (doesn’t guarantee future peace, of course) is signed? Something more?
Btw, look at Lebanon with Hezbollah, in a new Palestinian state Hamas could play a similar role, no?
You once said a new Palestinian state would be a poor 3rd world country, into which nobody would invest economically. Returning to SB’s “what do you have to lose”, I think many in Israel think it would be sponsored by Iran to acquire weapons and be an Iranian client state. Gaza is already both, but as a state it could do all this openly since states have a right to have an army. If you disagree with this claim, why? Why wouldn’t Iran desire to strengthen its sphere of influence so in its fight against Israel and US? If many think so, Arab states around us (those that are against Iran) may have no desire to see a Palestinian state, similar to Israel, even if outwardly they support Palestinians. Would America benefit from a new Iranian client state near Israel?
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And this is scary: http://www.mediaite.com/online/whoa-times-of-israel-op-ed-advocates-genocide-against-gazans/
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This was an unpaid blogger at a mickey mouse news site. Bad, but relatively harmless.
What’s scarier is the Thane Rosenbaum op-ed in the Wall Street Journal, arguing that children whose parents voted for Hamas are legitimate targets for killing. Rosenbaum is a professor in Fordham Law School, and is in the running to become the next chief of ADL.
http://blogs.forward.com/forward-thinking/202678/adl-needs-to-drop-thane-rosenbaum-right-now/
Now, THAT is scary.
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A colleague in poli sci says, “It isn’t fascism until regular people get enthusiastic about killing the Other and start cheering murder.” Putin, Netanyahu, Bush, etc are not scary in themselves. It’s the enthusiasm if the masses that makes them terrifying.
This is why I’m so disturbed by that relatively minor story about the professor. The mob turned at him, and that mob is scary.
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As the saying goes, with such friends as Yochanan Gordon, who needs enemies? I don’t see his article as reflecting a change in Israeli society. Imo, my society hasn’t changed like that, but a war brought out the disease of this person. (And of some others, who aren’t journalists. Fortunately, those people have always been and still are a minority.) Unfortunately, since he is a columnist, people from abroad may think he reflects all of us.
The Times of Israel and the 5 Towns Jewish Times removed a blog post …
The 5 Towns Jewish Times, a Long Island paper founded by Gordon’s father, also deleted the post.
Gordon had immediate posting rights at the Times of Israel, and did not need an editor’s clearance; it is not clear what rights he had at the 5 Towns Jewish Times, where the post had appeared on a rotation of top home page articles illustrated with a picture of a sunset.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.608452
When a diseased family has 2 newspapers … 😦
In other news, Israel decided not to negotiate with Hamas at all, but to simply withdraw. Hamas’s representetives won’t go to Egypt for talks with Israel, as planned, and say:
“The occupation must choose, and then pay the price. It either stays in Gaza and pay the price, or unilaterally withdraw and pay the price or have negotiations and pay the price. We’re ready for all of the possibilities.”
May be, Israel government decided not to negotiate at this stage, since they are thinking about the captured officer. If he is in Hamas’s hands, they’ll want to get something, and, without agreeing to XYZ (helping both Gazans and Hamas), our position will be stronger.
Today a new tunnel was finally found (we had knew it existed, but not where) – especially big, with motorcycles. Supposedly, to help kidnap a soldier or a civilian.
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I really really hope that this is a minor, non-representative incident. If there is a wave of disgust and rejection in society at large, that’s the only thing that can stop these feelings from spreading and becoming the norm.
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“A colleague in poli sci says, “It isn’t fascism until regular people get enthusiastic about killing the Other and start cheering murder.” Putin, Netanyahu, Bush, etc are not scary in themselves. It’s the enthusiasm if the masses that makes them terrifying.
This is why I’m so disturbed by that relatively minor story about the professor. The mob turned at him, and that mob is scary. ”
SO TRUE! When I read polls where fewer than 10% of Israeli citizens say it’s time to stop, it really, really scares me. People in newspapers finding more and more creative ways, using weird notions of philosophy and ethics to justify the killing of civilians, that’s what gets to me. Just go right ahead and say you want to kill them all. Don’t mask it with ‘morality’.
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Just using the Israel war as an example because it’s current. Felt the same during the Iraq war. Oh my god, all those neocons writing in newspapers, making such sophisticated moral cases for murder. And the american people nodding in approval. It was disgusting.
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// SO TRUE! When I read polls where fewer than 10% of Israeli citizens say it’s time to stop
Today’s polls or from before? If the second, then:
People, many of whom have been living under rocket fire for years, didn’t want to stop the operation before ensuring long-term quiet. Even if it would kill Gazans, yes. Honestly, what is the point of beginning it all, losing our soldiers and then stopping too soon and ensuring we will have next round in August 2015? And that all our South would be under fire the next day (since our stopping)?
Hamas hasn’t wanted to agree to acceptable conditions for a long time. Then, it pretended to agree and we had a ceasefire again. 1.5 hours later our officer was kidnapped. Btw, Hamas agreed to a ceasefire, which would let Israel continue destroying the tunnels in the areas where IDF was. IDF wasn’t supposed to withdraw then, but to stay in place, which we did.
Another issue, which you ignore, is the tunnels. Imo, if we already began the operation, we had to destroy all attack tunnels leading to Israel before stopping. It became the goal of the operation the moment IDF saw the number and sophistication of those tunnels. People from kibbutzim (notice, not settlements!) near Gaza are afraid to return to their homes. Some are hysterical, as one woman on TV who was afraid to return there with her children. Hamas didn’t agree to ceasefires as long as Israel continued to destroy tunnels (till the last ceasefire resulting in kidnapping). I too think stopping before destroying the tunnels we know about is a crime against our own citizens.
After ending with the tunnels we are leaving:
“After 16 days of a ground incursion inside the Gaza Strip, the IDF started moving troops out of urban areas to the border area on Saturday, amid military estimates that the mission to destroy the 31 known terror tunnels will be completed within 24 hours.
…
Earlier Saturday, the IDF told Palestinians who had fled fighting in the northern Gaza town of Beit Lahia they could return”
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4553693,00.html
I am wondering about rocket fire, though. Nobody says anything about that. One commenter joked: “Yes, as our gov says, Hamas has fewer rockets now. It has depleted its stores by shooting at our cities.” If Hamas has the soldier, it could be discussed in our future negotiations.
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“long-term quiet”
Like in a cemetery.
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// Like in a cemetery.
No, quiet in Israel, not in Gaza.
Meanwhile, Israel says it will talk only with Egypt, not with Hamas. Will update after listening to PM’s speech soon.
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// Felt the same during the Iraq war.
I think there is a basic difference here. Americans haven’t been living under rocket fire for years before the Iraq war. They haven’t seen tunnels opening 100-200 meters away from their village / suburb.
And, when people are under fire, they radicalize faster. People, in general, don’t need help to begin hating an enemy attempting to kill them. You could say “it’s your fault too,” but emotions don’t work like that.
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Why are you saying ‘when people are under fire they radicalize etc. etc.’ like you’re some dispassionate observer describing some unknown phenomenon. Try to be more honest and start replacing ‘They’ with ‘I’, Miss Netanyahu-is-better-for-kids-than-their-own-mothers.
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// Miss Netanyahu-is-better-for-kids-than-their-own-mothers.
Oi. You have completely misunderstood me. Only now I understood that. I never meant Palestinian mothers, but Jewish mothers. (The kids are Gazan, of course.)
I meant that our PM is more ready to stop than many people on the street.
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No, she meant Israeli mothers.
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That’s a relief to know that you haven’t gone there.
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Meanwhile, nothing seems certain about the future of the operation. It could end soon, or change its goals. Today PM said:
Netanyahu: We’re ready to keep up Gaza op after tunnels razed
The IDF will continue operations until security and calm is restored to Israeli citizens, prime minister says, warning that an ‘intolerable price’ will be exacted for continuation of rocket fire.
…
Netanyahu said the decision was made to “minimize the IDF soldiers’ friction (with Hamas). I can about each and every soldier, but we will continue our operation until we achieve our goals.”
…
Netanyahu also spoke of the importance of the support of the international community. “The US and European strong support of the need to disarm the terror organizations is an important accomplishment for the state of Israel. Just as important, and what has surprised many, is the unique connection that was created with the states in the regional. That too is an important asset to the state of Israel, and when the Gaza campaign is over, this would open new possibilities to us.”
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4553816,00.html
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A few points not in the above article:
* PM was asked “What would lead Israel to the negotiations’ table?”
Answer (in my words): Yesterday, at 8:00 a.m., Hamas attacked during ceasefire, despite its promises to Kerry and UN. It was a pre-planned operation. A suicide bomber exploded, killing two soldiers, and then an officer was kidnapped. This is how Hamas cares for Gazan citizens. Hamas thinks Israeli soldiers and citizens aren’t ready to fight it.
Found this article, which sounds true in many parts:
The Most Dangerous Moment in Gaza: What happens if this conflict comes off the rails?
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/08/the-most-dangerous-moment-in-gaza/375434/
What sounds true is, for instance, the bit about “the compact between the Israeli army and Israeli parents”. Goldin’s family already asked not to leave Gaza without their son. Except the officer’s mother, they all are officers in the IDF (father, Goldin’s twin brother and an older sister). Especially horrible bit is:
Hadar decided to get engaged to his girlfriend Edna right after the end of Operation Brother’s Keeper, his twin brother Tzur said.
“I asked him why, it was a bit odd. He said that precisely at this moment when there are kidnapped teens, we’re a proud family and a proud and happy people. We want to make everyone happy,” Tzur said.
What the above article doesn’t take into account is PM’s character. He is almost universally viewed as somebody who wanted to end the operation, but reality interfered every time. Of course, PM didn’t want to end it every time Israel offered ceasefire, but I don’t think he wants to go as far as some in the Cabinet.
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Operation Brother’s Keeper is the search for the 3 murdered teens, which began everything.
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Now I think Jeffrey Goldberg’s articles are worth reading in general, if one wishes to understand us better.
http://www.theatlantic.com/jeffrey-goldberg/
Even if one disagrees with something and feels temptation to quit, SB. 🙂 He criticises our PM, which you would agree with:
“Netanyahu’s Mistake: The Israeli prime minister argues against Palestinian sovereignty, citing regional chaos. But holding the West Bank forever is no solution.”
But then writes “Understanding What Hamas Wants,” which you would probably disagree with.
He has been both a reporter and a soldier in Israel, and writes candidly about many topics. He also wrote a book “Prisoners: A Story of Friendship and Terror”:
During the first Palestinian uprising in 1990, Jeffrey Goldberg – an American Jew – served as a guard at the largest prison camp in Israel. One of his prisoners was Rafiq, a rising leader in the PLO. Overcoming their fears and prejudices, the two men began a dialogue that, over more than a decade, grew into a remarkable friendship. Now an award-winning journalist, Goldberg describes their relationship and their confrontations over religious, cultural, and political differences; through these discussions, he attempts to make sense of the conflicts in this embattled region, revealing the truths that lie buried within the animosities of the Middle East.
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IDF declared missing IDF officer Hadar Goldin dead. The IDF said that “last night at 23:25 chief military rabbi, Brigadier – Gen. Rafi Peretz, who headed a special court set up for this purpose, declared the death of an IDF officer Lt. Citrus Goldin, warrior and commander of the Givati, who fell in the Gaza Strip on Friday, August 1, 2014. The decision was made according to the findings from the war area, based on medical considerations, halachic and other relevant considerations.”
Now I wonder about the political considerations. If “halachic and other” are mentioned, it may mean nothing is known for certain.
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Last link, but it is important:
Al Jazeera Publishes Updated List of Gaza Dead; Analysis Confirms Israel Targeting Combatants
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/21/al-jazeera-publishes-updated-list-of-gaza-dead-analysis-confirms-israel-tageting-combatants/
“The analysis showed that 82% of the dead were men, and 50 per cent of them were between 18 and 28 years old, and 66 per cent between 18 and 38.”
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Turns out the Israeli soldier was dead all along, and not captured. Oops! Nice excuse to break the ceasefire, and get the go-ahead from mega-sucker President Obama to kill a couple of hundred people, though.
“My government wouldn’t lie to me” – el
L O fucking L.
No wonder you like Jeffrey Goldberg. He hasn’t met a muslim man he didn’t want to bomb. Iraq war until now.
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I can believe PM knew Goldin was dead at certain point, but has waited as a part of long-term plan to weaken Hamas. He has said destroying Hamas was a long process during this operation. Last time also – Israel left Gaza without making a deal with Hamas. Suppose PM lied to weaken international pressure and let Israel end the operation 100% on its own terms. Logically, give me one reason why I, as an Israeli citizen, should be against it? And not because “lies are bad” or “each day kills people,” the latter is true, but following it would prevent Israel from doing anything ever. To achieve anything against Hamas, one unfortunately must kill people, including our own.
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Keep shifting them goalposts. At first, with all earnestness, “Clarissa, why would my government lie to me? Of course they don’t target civilians blah blah”. Then, when presented with evidence to the contrary, you’re all “Yeah, they lie, but we still have to keep killing mooslims because “.
This goes back to what I was saying earlier about you commenting ‘when people are under fire they radicalize..”. You can try to be honest by substituting ‘I’ for ‘they’. Your callous attitude towards murder is disturbing. ‘To make an omelette, you gotta break a few eggs, and by breaking eggs I mean killing children while they’re sleeping in UN shelters. It’s a tough gig but somebody’s GOTTA do it, amirite folks?!’
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A good article from Israel:
“There are only two sides, and they are not Israelis and Palestinians, Jews and Arabs. They are moderates and the extremists. I belong to the moderates, wherever they are. They are my camp – and this camp needs to unite. I have nothing whatsoever in common with the Jewish extremists who burn children alive, poison wells, uproot trees, throw stones at schoolchildren and are motivated by brainwashed hate and acute self-righteousness.
I want to bury my head in my hands and disappear – to the moon if possible – when I read the sermons of rabbis Yitzhak Ginsburg and Dov Lior romanticizing death and killing in the name of God as did Baruch Goldstein, their sacred martyr, who 20 years ago murdered 29 Arabs in cold blood as they were praying. When I read the incredible words of racism and hate written by some of my fellow Israelis, the cries of joy when Palestinian children are killed, the contempt for human life, the fact that we share the same passport and religion means nothing to me. I want nothing to do with these people.”
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.608404
This needs to be said, and said, and then said some more.
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Read both Right and Left papers today. From a column in a Left paper- of course, it is only his opinion – Tzipi Livni has always been against strengthening Hamas by fulfilling its demands in negotiations. Both in previous operation and now. Only after the last violation of ceasefire, PM adopted her approach (unsure whether it is so). Not negotiating with Hamas weakens it, takes Turkey and Qatar out of the picture. Instead, Egypt and PA get potential to increase their influence. Tzipi is for involving numerous parties in the search for solution, including Europe and UN.
I have also heard in many places that some in Likud began seeing Abu Mazen as more of a partner.
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\\ A good article from Israel:
Have you subscribed to haaretz? I can’t read it in full because of having no subscription.
In today’s printed edition they talked about Palestinian victims too.
SB, you could possibly like the paper.
// No wonder you like Jeffrey Goldberg. He hasn’t met a muslim man he didn’t want to bomb.
I thought he sounded intelligent and not as a fanatic you present him to be. I was especially interested in points 5 (also talks about the need to reach out to moderates, like in your linked article, Clarissa, and also presents Obama’s disturbing analysis, look) and 6 of this post:
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/why-is-israel-losing-a-war-its-winning/375116/
// Keep shifting them goalposts. At first, … “Of course they don’t target civilians blah blah”. Then, … “Yeah, they lie, but we still have to keep killing mooslims because “.
There are two different things here. First, I still don’t believe my government sees a UN shelter and decides “lets kill those innocent people to ‘punish’ Palestinians.” Both because of moral reasons and also since Hamas benefits from Israel killing not fighters, while Israel only loses.
Second, it seems that in a war against Hamas (the only terrorist organization, which is also a government), Israel can’t use any tactic without hurting all Gazans. If we decide on a military way to destroy Hamas’s rule and reoccupy Gaza for that, many Gazans will die. If we continue using siege tactics (together with working on political arena) to weaken Hamas and gradually demilitarize Gaza, all Gazans suffer too.
I make a difference between having a goal of fighting against Hamas (which does represent a part of Gazans) and a goal of targeting civilians (Hamas’s goal in connection to Israeli Jews).
Today I heard that Hamas wouldn’t stay the only governing power in Gaza after negotiations, that Fatah will enter the picture too, somehow. Hope it becomes true.
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I agree completely that “Palestinians must go free because there is no other way.” I don’t think any reasonable person can disagree.
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A general question: in Israeli discourse, the way we are perceived in the world, the question of international legitimacy, is one of central questions. How is that in USA? During Iraq and other wars, have people discussed that on TV during news reports, for instance? Or, since USA is super-powerful, Americans are only paying attention to inner politics?
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France never disappoints. Disgusting scum.
https://twitter.com/Yair_Rosenberg/status/495994697010003968
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It’s really disturbing to see how France slides into barbarity.
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Jews Fined for Singing ‘Ani Maamin’ at Auschwitz
,,,
Guards at the Auschwitz Birkenau concentration camp memorial site shouted at Jews who sang “Ani Maamin” – a song based on lines from Rambam (Maimonides) which was known as the Hymn of the Camps – during a visit to the camp and fined their guide 1,000 zloty, or about $350.
,,,
despite it being an established practice for Jewish groups. The group felt a strong sense of pride and duty to sing the same song Jews sang on the way to their deaths and continued to sing. Security refused to let the matter go and persisted in stopping us singing, despite us calmly explaining to them our reasons for doing so.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183662#.U98aJ-N_tPk
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‘Ani Maamin’ in Hebrew means ‘I believe’.
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Now I read “Auschwitz Memorial / Muzeum Auschwitz” comment below and he says the group
“The whole situation was a problem of far too loud and inappropriate behaviour at the Memorial of the group. That become a problem for guides and other visitors who were on the site at that moment. Other visitors were disrupted even in such a sensitve place as the building of the crematorium at Auschwitz I. The group blocked it and did not let in any other visitors. Only after they security intevened, they reacted. ”
May be,. I shouldn’t have left the link.
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In any case, the guards should be trained to treat visitors with utmost sensitivity. When my sister and I were at the Holocaust memorial in Berlin, it had such an enormous psychological impact that we were right on the verge of behaving erratically. I had visions of tanks, of people being herded by German officers.
People can get very impacted by being in this kind of place. It isn’t a regular touristy place.
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One would hope the guards and the personnel at such sites would be given some basic psychological training. I don’t mean anything major, but a couple of workshops on grief and trauma would definitely make sense.
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Freaks, total freaks.
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// Turns out the Israeli soldier was dead all along, and not captured. Oops! Nice excuse to break the ceasefire
The Hannibal Directive: Why Israel risks the life of the soldier being rescued
For 17 years, the dramatically named directive, one of the most controversial orders in Israeli military history, remained a secret. When it was made public, it got surprisingly little backlash.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.608693
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