I just read an interesting, albeit not a very new article by the great historian Tony Judt. Here is a curious paragraph detailing the change of the West’s vision of Israel:
Before 1967 the State of Israel may have been tiny and embattled, but it was not typically hated: certainly not in the West. . . The romantic image of the kibbutz and the kibbutznik had a broad foreign appeal in the first two decades of Israel’s existence. Most admirers of Israel (Jews and non-Jews) knew little about the Palestinian Nakba (catastrophe) of 1948. They preferred to see in the Jewish state the last surviving incarnation of the 19th century idyll of agrarian socialism – or else a paragon of modernizing energy “making the desert bloom.” . . . In politics and in policy-making circles only old-fashioned conservative Arabists expressed any criticism of the Jewish state. . .
But today everything is different. . . Today only a tiny minority of outsiders see Israelis as victims. The true victims, it is now widely accepted, are the Palestinians.
This is completely true, and such a change has, indeed, taken place. It has nothing, however, to do with the West caring about Palestinians. The very idea is risible if we take into account the intense anti-Muslim sentiments that exist in pretty much every Western country.
What Judt is refusing to notice is that something has changed in the West to make this change of attitude towards Israel unavoidable and necessary – to the West. The immigration of Muslims into Western countries is booming. The “support” for Palestinians – which doesn’t cost the Westerners anything – is an easy way to tell themselves, “No, it’s not true that we hate the Muslims in our midst. We are proving that every day by bravely supporting Palestinians.”
This is a nifty little way to exorcise collective guilt for everything one is actually doing and feeling towards the Muslims who are close-by. And the initial support of Israel in the first couple of decades of its existence was motivated by the same old collective guilt over the Holocaust. Now that itch has mostly been scratched and a more delicious one has appeared:
In the eyes of a watching world, the fact that the great-grandmother of an Israeli soldier died in Treblinka is no excuse for his own abusive treatment of a Palestinian woman waiting to cross a checkpoint.
No it’s not. It is, however, a great excuse used by the “the watching world” for its own mistreatment of a Muslim next door.
Clarissa's Blog 
Terror in Jerusalem: One killed, six hurt when terrorist goes on rampage in industrial digger
Police officer shoots and kills terrorist; Jerusalem Mayor praises police response; Aharonovich: This could happen again; Hamas welcomes attack, while terrorist’s family say he had no interest in politics.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4554671,00.html
I wondered whether I should post such minor thing (“minor” – both with and without quotation marks) or not… Then decided to post to may be give some feeling of our news and life. Btw, look at
the terrorist was an Arab man in his 20s from East Jerusalem. Officials said the assailant was known to the police from a previous security incident.
VS
His family denied the claims, and said he had no interest in politics, “this was traffic accident which sealed his fate,” a relative told Ynet.
The second is always said by relatives, unless they go on Arabic radio to announce their pride in the family’s shahid.
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I just read about this on an American news site (sorry, I didn’t save the link), and the story was that it was a minor traffic accident overblown by the Israeli police who murdered the innocent driver.
This is our supposedly pro-Israeli media.
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There is a video of the thing here (not of the entire thing, but you hear shots and see the tractor):
http://www.mako.co.il/news-military/security/Article-f6138bb11a0a741004.htm?sCh=3d385dd2dd5d4110&pId=1898243326
Terror acts using various vehicles aren’t unusual.
In 2008, Jerusalem suffered a spate of terror attacks involving tractors. In July that year, an East Jerusalem resident killed three people and wounded 30, after he rammed his construction vehicle into buses and cars and trampled pedestrians on Rashi, Jaffa and Sarei Israel streets in the city. He was shot dead at the scene.
Three weeks later, another Palestinian man used his tractor to plow into vehicles on King David street in Jerusalem, making his way to Keren Hayesod Street, where he was shot and killed by a Border Police officer. Twenty-four people were injured in that incident.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/attempted-tractor-terror-attack-in-jerusalem/
See the translation from Hebrew of another article’s name:
Terrorist in 2009: “I am against vehicle terror acts, not every tractor driver is a trampler”
Muhammad G’abis … protested 5 years ago along with dozens of other Arab tractor drivers after a wave of suicide attacks in the capital and said: “the Israeli public should understand that not every Arab driver tries to attack. We oppose it “
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Gunman opens fire in Jerusalem, hours after tractor attack kills one
…
Several hours after a man driving a digger used his vehicle to flip over a bus, killing one, a gunman on a motorcycle opened fire Monday on a hitchhiking station near Jerusalem’s Hebrew University on Mt. Scopus. Several people were wounded in both attacks.
A 20-year-old soldier was seriously wounded in the Mt. Scopus attack. Security forces are now attempting to apprehend the attacker, who fled the scene.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.608782
Btw, many Palestinians used to work in Israel. Then, foreign workers were brought instead. Compare terror acts with the following from anti-Israeli policies website (may be, you’ll be interested to read the article about Palestinian workers and/or looking at the site):
In the present economic situation, the only option available to tens of thousands of Palestinians for earning a living is work within Israel, either with a work permit from Israeli authorities or illegally.
http://www.btselem.org/workers/20140430_international_workers_day_2014
After each terror act, I think more and more Israelis are against having *any* Palestinian workers.
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Today read those two paragraphs and smiled:
As far as Obama is concerned and in his rational view, the Putin regime has been walking down the road of foolishness since the beginning of the crisis in Ukraine, while Hamas has been sliding down the slope of destructive idiocy since the murder of the three Jewish teens. They are both acting against long-term interests, of Russia and of the Palestinian people.
Astonished and disappointed, Obama has been facing repeated outbursts of the blurring of wisdom in international relations and has been talking about it in public. But even if in his sixth year as president, Obama seems as though he has despaired of understanding the loonies around him – he is not giving up.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4554185,00.html
I sure hope it isn’t a true description of reality. Otherwise, it’s like a joke “what, you still don’t understand?”
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This is kind of stupid. People are quite capable of seeing their long- term interests differently, and this is not a sign of insanity. I’m quite disturbed by these dismissals of Putin as crazy. The guy is very smart and everything he does is eminently reasonable given his goals. Obama, by the way, doesn’t have nearly the kind of support Putin gets both at home and abroad.
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// People are quite capable of seeing their long- term interests differently
Do you think Hamas helps Palestinians? How?
Israel will never agree to Palestinian country with Hamas in power.
// I’m quite disturbed by these dismissals of Putin as crazy.
I thought he cared about himself more than about Russian citizens.
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“// I’m quite disturbed by these dismissals of Putin as crazy.
I thought he cared about himself more than about Russian citizens.”
– That makes him psychologically healthy. It is not normal to care about unseen strangers more than about oneself.
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I read that:
“A a long-term study (from 1998 to 2011) shows that drawn out Israel-Arab conflicts contribute to mental health problems among Israeli teens … much more psychologically distressed than their American peers
…
Short bursts of violence have negative effects, but longer conflicts weigh more heavily on the young psyche, according to the study.”
http://www.timesofisrael.com/long-conflict-wears-on-teen-psyche-14-year-study/
Interestingly,
“In line with previous research, girls seemed more emotionally affected than boys, particularly during escalations in the conflict.”
Is it 100% since boys hide their feelings, or are there additional differences in socialization process, encouraging girls to be anxious?
Somebody commented:
“This type of traumatic experiences will lead the kids in future to paranoia and to them being frantic decision makers and reactionaries. This is one of the root cause for the conflict and animosity between the Israelites and Palestinians. What they both need apart from ending the war is millions of counselors and therapists. Both Israel and Palestinians did not get any healing of their traumas at least since early 1900 for sure.”
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Which I’ve been saying only forever.
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Boys don’t define what they feel as anxiety. They don’t recognize a panic attack as such. They need women to process and describe their emotions to them. Unfortunately, it’s what most women who are in relationships with men have to do. And it’s weary work, my friend.
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Process and describe their emotions – I am unsure what it means in practice. Telling him how he feels or express the same feelings as yours? Ask how he feels? Do not think I would be good at those tasks. Or even do them at all. (Asking whether he feels afraid is strange, and I do not see most men loving it.) What if a woman does not do that?
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“Honey, what you are feeling right now is sadness. And you are feeling it because XYZ. And the way to stop feeling it is X.”
Asking how he feels is a waste of time because the chances that he knows how he feels are very slim. The chances that he knows why he feels it are even slimmer.
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There isn’t a person who wouldn’t benefit from a good psychoanalyst, of course. And people with intense collective trauma, even more than most.
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4554583,00.html
Israel’s second largest paper this time, calling for genocide. Man, why do Israelis love genocide so much?
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Man, why do you hate Israel so much? And I am asking you again what did you do to help Palestinians since you seem to be so concerned about them.
One more thing, I love Clarissa’s suggestion for pro-Palestinian crowd. So, Stringer Bell , how many Palestinian families you’re planning to invite to live in your community?
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Palestinian stabs Ma’ale Adumim guard, still at large
Settlement’s security guard fired at stabber as he fled, but apparently missed; large security forces searching the area for perpetrator.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555240,00.html
It is also near Jerusalem. Hopefully, more soldiers will be sent to the area.
People on TV speak about Jews and Israeli Arabs too. When there are wars in Gaza, it influences Israeli society (which includes Arabs) .
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At last! Jeffrey Herf, Distinguished University Professor of History and a fellow of the Middle East Forum, described the content of Hamas’s 1988 “Covenant”:
http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2014/08/01/why-they-fight-hamas-too-little-known-fascist-charter
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1. From Welfare to Warfare
As troubling revelations emerge about the UNRWA’s activities in Gaza, including that it discovered missiles in its schools and then returned them to local officials, both the organization’s mission and its politics deserve a closer look.
http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2014/08/02/from-welfare-to-warfare/
2. India Takes Turn at New Global Sport: Ignoring John Kerry
India joined a growing list of nations to snub the U.S. Secretary of State last week, scuttling an important WTO agreement on customs and trade while Kerry was in New Delhi.
It happened just after Kerry failed to win agreement to a ceasefire between Israel and the Hamas.
3. I liked the article, “The Radical As the Vanguard of the Status Quo”. It expresses a good idea, which may look trivial, but is ignored by most.
On the Left, it is obvious: Zionism must be overthrown and Gazans freed. On the Right, the answer is clear: Hamas is a terrorist organization that must be obliterated. And amongst humanitarians it is an article of unquestioned faith: women and children must be protected, ceasefires upheld, and medicine, water, and food permitted to enter the country.
http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2014/08/03/the-radical-as-the-vanguard-of-the-status-quo/
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el, I think you might be interested in signing this petition: http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/08/01/UN-petition-to-investigate-gaza
It is time for the U.N. to wake up and finally do their job.
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Interesting article about Shia / Sunni and Gaza:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555109,00.html
Hamas’ struggle against the distribution of the Shia is embarrassing the organization and creating a rift with Iran.
The battle against the Shiite propaganda reflects the internal struggle in Gaza between Hamas, which belongs to the Sunni Muslim Brotherhood movement, and the Islamic Jihad, which is loyal to Iran.
There is no doubt that once the IDF operation in the Gaza Strip comes to an end, the tactical alliance between the two organizations will fall apart and the Islamic factions will resume the fighting against each other the Strip’s control.
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What do you think about the following article? I haven’t known about the numerous examples in the article of West encouraging and supporting wider operations against terror than Israeli ones, but changing its tune when it comes to Israel.
“West encouraging terror with ‘massacre’ claims
Op-ed: Western states support Israel’s right to defend itself, as long as it goes to war with its hands tied.
…
And it’s most fascinating that when some of the Arab states want Israel to crush Hamas, because they are afraid that the radical Islam’s killing industry will reach them too, that’s when the West encourages terror.”
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555284,00.html
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// – Of course. People who say they think Hamas is interested in peaceful coexistence in Israel always strike me as very deluded.
Jimmy Carter calls on US, EU to recognize Hamas
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555502,00.html
// “Let’s assume an independent Palestine state lobs unprovoked rockets at Israel. … I would completely support Israel defending itself by any means in this situation.”
– You really do seem to think that this kind of support should be a decisive factor in Israel’s actions.//
Thought about the exchange after reading a comment on Ian Welsh’s blog:
“I agree, stop the diaspora and urge Israel to become a secular, plural state. That is the only hope of a sustainable long-term solution. Everything else is problematic. That land is unique and could sustain all peoples as a spiritual and cultural tourist attraction for centuries if they could get its act together. The Zionist fantasy is silly. Once they drop this fantasy then they will have the moral high ground to take on the Muslim fundamentalists and their intolerance. It’s incremental but this is the sustainable path.”
Should I 🙂 OR 😦 ? Why are Americans (?) so concerned about “the moral high ground”? Because of never being in real danger in their own country? I and others in Israel (and, imo, in the entire Middle East) are more concerned about capacity to protect oneself in RL.
And also thought about your offer to invite Palestinians into Europe after reading the below comment from Ian’s blog. Many people, who criticize Israel the most, hate the idea of Jews living next to them, which would happen, had Israel become extremely dangerous after taking all risks people urge us to take. Also, I don’t believe they would love Palestinians more than Jews as neighbors.
–“As a bleeding ulcer, Israel does not work. More and more diaspora Jews are turning away from it. At some point the foreign aid it requires to exist will go away.”
—Ian, this is a point frequently overlooked in this tragic situation.
I think it is one that Australia should be very concerned about as they will no doubt all want to come here. The thought of all those bellicose, arrogant Jews living in Oz is not appealing.
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So on top of everything else, Ian Welsh is an anti-semite. What a special person he is.
As for the Americans’ obsession with “high moral ground,” this is yet another sign of extreme American narcissism. I love American people and believe they are fantastic. However, they do have this strange little quirk: they massively believe that anybody who doesn’t receive their approval must become heart-broken and just die of sheer sorrow. The simple possibility that nobody cares doesn’t occur to them. And this happens on an individual level, too. I haven’t seen people from other cultures so obsessed with believing that everybody’s goal in life is to observe and judge them.
But they have so many stellar qualities that this little quirk can be forgiven.
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OK, now I am sorry I left some “just for fun” links above since here is something better.
Clarissa and SB, Abigail Nussbaum is a fellow Israeli, who left a few interesting comments here:
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2014/07/chait-israel
If you search “Abigail Nussbaum” on the page, you’ll find them. About inner Israeli politics and current government, our PM’s character, former Palestinian unity government, settlements, ultra-orthodox vs the settler movement and more. For instance:
–“In the 80s and early 90s it was very, very cheap to buy houses in the settlements (not to mention that a lot more houses were going up there than outside the green line). A lot of secular and non-political people bought there … Nowadays, that impulse has faded, and living the settlements is mostly an ideological choice.”
— “Hamas was wildly unpopular even before this operation started, and particularly in the PA where the marriage of convenience they made earlier in the year quickly soured. Abbas was more than happy to let Netanyahu mop up Hamas’s leadership following the kidnapping of the three boys, and has even made some shockingly anti-Hamas statements throughout the operation. But that was political expediency, not concern for Israeli lives.”
— “Palestinian terror has done a tremendous amount to destroy the Israeli left, and every round of missile fire or tunnel incursions like the ones we’ve been seeing in the last week weaken it further.”
— “on the list of things that worry me about my country’s future, losing US support ranks only a few rungs above the Syro-African rift giving a shrug and tossing the entire region into the Mediterranean. They’re both going to happen some day, but so many other horrible things are more likely to happen first that it seems foolish to fixate.”
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It scares me always to be so right. 🙂 I’ve been saying for a while that losing US’s lukewarm support is not a concern that Israelis fret over a whole lot. Americans see their withdrawal of support as something overwhelmingly crucial but the rest of the world hardly ever notices.
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“losing US’s lukewarm support”
In what planet is supporting Israel financially, militarily (Iron dome anyone?), and diplomatically considered ‘lukewarm’? Short of ordering the US army to go inside Gaza and kill civilians themselves, I can’t see how the US could possibly support Israel more. The most broken congress in the history of this country, can’t pass a law to save their lives, but the one thing they unanimously agree on is support for Israel.
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The vast majority of Israelis considers it to be even less than lukewarm. Talk to any random Israelis and you will see I’m right.
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Hamas’ PR strategy can only work if international news media follows the script, whether willingly or under coercion.
…
Take, for example, the shelling of Shaati refugee camp in Gaza City and adjacent Shiffa Hospital on July 28. Newsrooms featured the ten innocent refugees, including eight children killed. The IDF denied responsibility for this carnage. But it didn’t matter what Israel said, nor did it matter that its evidence involved the tracking technology of Iron Dome. UN’s Ban Ki Moon called it “shameful, outrageous and unjustified,” while UNRWA’s General Commissioner lamented “the world stands disgraced” (presumably by Israel’s wanton slaughter of innocents). The belated tweet of an Italian reporter (to which we shall return below), confirming that Hamas rockets had hit the school, excited the Zionist blogosphere, but had no effect on the mainstream discussion.
…
280 rockets fired from Gaza have fallen within Gaza.
…
INTIMIDATION AND ADVOCACY MOTIVATE MEDIA’S COOPERATION
http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2014/08/05/the-medias-role-in-hamas-war-strategy/
I don’t claim that our weapons haven’t killed civilians, of course. I do agree that media presents one side of picture from inside Gaza. All killed are presented as civilians by Hamas. One never sees photos of their fighters. How they shoot from a hospital or near a school.
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“It’s not that the Israeli army particularly wants to kill civilians (although it is sometimes very sloppy), but it does prefer to fight a stand-off war with artillery and missiles in order to spare the lives of its own soldiers. In the crowded Gaza Strip, that inevitably means killing lots of civilians.
The 1.8 million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are living at the same population density as the residents of London or Tokyo: around 5,000 people per square kilometre. You cannot use high explosives in this environment without killing a great many innocent civilians, and Netanyahu knew that from the start, because this is Israel’s third war in Gaza in six years”
This is from Gwynne Dwyer, (an independent journalist who has a PhD in military and middle east history) http://www.piquenewsmagazine.com/whistler/gaza-a-little-context/Content?oid=2564354
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I know, twicerandomly.
I can’t say that I am for losing more our soldiers.
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Liked the article since it touched on source of problems of all Arab states in our era:
http://www.the-american-interest.com/garfinkle/2014/08/06/the-ironies-of-a-palestinian-state/
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Wow, that is one offensive article.
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What’s offensive about it? It merely states what anyone who closely looks at Arab (or more generally muslim majority societies) quickly realizes; extended family (or clan or tribe) and religious and charismatic leaders count for far more than impersonal or secular state authorities (to the detriment of those societies). If there’s another analysis going I’d like to know what it is.
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The offensive part comes before that: let’s not give Palestinians a state because they will fuck up anyways. This is the kind of logic that defeats me completely. According to this logic, post-Soviet states also didn’t deserve independence because they were very likely to fuck up. And they did. And still do.
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\\ The offensive part comes before that: let’s not give Palestinians a state because they will fuck up anyways.
Has the author said that? I understood the article as warning of the dangers and difficulties ahead. After all, one can get a state and then lose it too, with territory becoming a nest of different terrorist groups fighting each other. And, of course, shooting at Israel.
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“I understood the article as warning of the dangers and difficulties ahead.”
– Unsolicited condescending warnings are very paternalistic. I hate this fake concern. The whole article can be summarized as ‘I hate them because they are different.” Well, guess what? they hate him and for the same reason.
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“let’s not give Palestinians a state because they will fuck up anyways. This is the kind of logic that defeats me completely. According to this logic, post-Soviet states also didn’t deserve independence because they were very likely to fuck up. And they did. And still do”
Fair enough, but I understood it a little differently. It’s not like the USSR was a healthy working society ruined by being broke up into some of its constituent parts.
A better analogy might be, let’s say, Czechoslovakia after WWII. Given the realities of Arab socieites in the modern world the idea of an independent Palestine is kind of like saying: “Sure, the soviet model has been a disaster in the Soviet Union, but maybe it will work better now in Czechoslovakia!”
He does ignore the big problem though (which I _never_ see addressed): There’s no reason (besides rationality which has never stopped them before) for an independent Palestine with its own legitimate armed forces to not go to war against Israel, lose badly and we’re right back to where we began. Overall Palestinians are hopelessly addicted to the idea of an overwhelming military victory over Israel. Until they get it through their heads that that’s not going to happen ….
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// independent Palestine with its own legitimate armed forces to not go to war against Israel, lose badly and we’re right back to where we began.
Not back, unfortunately. Had it been back, they wouldn’t think of attacking. International community would protect their right to a state and a right to bring new weapons after each new war, no matter how many wars they lose. No matter if the new state is ruled by various terrorist groups and Iran.
Meanwhile, Hamas and Islamic Jihad declined to renew the ceasefire and again began shooting at Israeli South. They demand lifting a siege on Gaza, but till Hamas is ruling there, Israel won’t agree to it. Israeli long term goal is Hamas’s fall, not strengthening.
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ISIS-affiliated group torched two mosques and held an open-air mass rally calling for jihad in Istanbul last week, raising fears across Turkey.
http://www.the-american-interest.com/blog/2014/08/07/muslim-democracies-wake-up-to-isis-threat
ISIS may not succeed to create a theocratic country, but they may distabilize to some degree formerly more stable Muslim countries.
Also, Hamas says if their demands won’t be fulfilled, they will not agree to prolong the current ceasefire and will begin shooting at 8 a.m. tomorrow.
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Thought about USA help and moral high grounds again.
Poland’s straight-talking foreign minister, Radek Sikorski, landed himself in the doghouse last month when a waiter serving a private dinner released a recording of him saying that Poland’s ties to the U.S. were “worthless.“
The Polish government, naturally, backtracked on the comment. Sikorski explains here for the first time in detail what he actually meant in a wide-ranging interview that goes to the heart of the crisis in Ukraine and Eastern Europe, which is facing a much more aggressive Russia.
http://www.ozy.com/c-notes/radek-sikorski-charting-security-for-front-line-poland/32862.article
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\\ – Unsolicited condescending warnings are very paternalistic. I hate this fake concern.
The author doesn’t say he is concerned about Palestinians. It’s not “Unsolicited condescending warnings,” it’s analysis of the situation. Many people in the West, who say “situation can only improve with Palestinian state for Palestinians and/or for Israel,” would benefit from taking into account more things.
Meanwhile, Hamas’s ultimatum game is “Ceasefire extension contingent on seaport establishment.”
A senior political source said that Israel will “respond with strength” should Hamas make good on its promise to renew rocket fire as soon as soon as the ceasefire end 8 am Friday morning.
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George Galloway informed activists, “we have declared Bradford an Israel-free zone.
We don’t want any Israeli goods. We don’t want any Israeli services. We don’t want any Israeli academics, coming to the university or the college. We don’t even want any Israeli tourists to come to Bradford, if any of them had thought of doing so.”
Speaking on behalf of the Respect Party in Leeds, the MP for Bradford West encouraged a crowd gathered at a public meeting to back his stance and “do the same.”
http://rt.com/uk/178816-israel-free-zone-galloway/
I wanted to visit England and France before, to look and get some feeling of old European culture (whatever that would mean for me, Europe has always had some magical aura as The Cultural Place) at least once in my life. This year would be a bad choice, but how much better will be the next?
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One person commented
“Bradford an old Lancashire Mill town has seen a dramatic change in its ethnic make up in the last 40 years.
Many of its citizens are now of Pakistan heritage and its quite a culture shock if you have not visited the town for many years.
So Mr Galloway will get a lot of support for his stance on things Israeli.”
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If you want to travel, you should travel. But if you want to travel to a place where no loud idiots are present, I don’t think you’d find it. 🙂
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// If you want to travel, you should travel. But if you want to travel to a place where no loud idiots are present, I don’t think you’d find it.
I think it may be dangerous to look like a Jew and / or Israeli on Paris’s and London’s streets those days. Attack on a synagogue which happened in France wasn’t merely “loud,” they didn’t stop at words. They aren’t “idiots,” they are Palestinians and other Muslims, who point all anger (to a large extent, anger deriving from their other problems) at Jews / Israelis. The word “Zionist” is used as a curse by many, unlike “patriotic French / English / German”.
This year I won’t go, may be in the future.
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The general rule for europe is: more muslim immigration = more overt anti-semitism.
If I were an Israeli citizen you couldn’t pay me to go to western europe (central and eastern europe, despite the historical baggage, are doing much better).
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// If I were an Israeli citizen you couldn’t pay me to go to western europe
Why? Do you think it’s physically dangerous? I talk about next year, for instance, not in the middle of Gaza opperation.
I’ve never been there and despite everything thought of Europe as of the pearl of the world, no? Our politicians talk about Israel as “villa in the jungle,” so I wanted to see what “real civilization” looks like.
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I met some Israeli citizens in London the last time I went. I have to say, more obnoxious, rude, loud and unpleasant individuals the world has never seen. These tourists were men in their 50s-60s, and this is a group that usually is very pleased to see me. These Israelis, however, tried to shove me aside, physically, because they were in such a hurry. And then they tried doing it again!
And then I met another group of Israeli tourists and they were even worse.
So I wouldn’t be so worried about the Israelis abroad.
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Are you from Poland? How are things there (muslim immigration and anti-semitism)?
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I live in Poland (have done so for a long time) but I’m neither Polish nor Jewish. Poles on the whole are fairly likely to talk an anti-semitic game but don’t really follow through. Crucially, anti-semitism doesn’t have anything intellectual respectability, and so all but the least educated (and/or most crazy) don’t want to be associated with it.
Muslim immigration is mostly students who stayed after studying (as in many other warsaw pact countries) who tend to be more secular and educated than in western europe or small business people who need to stay on the public’s good side to make a living. The general lack of a social safety net means there’s basically no welfare immigration. There’s also some random people lured by diploma mills who are ‘students’ but mostly looking for a way into western europe (specifically the UK).
Unfortunately there’s also been some Saudi-funded missionary activity which has brought conflicts with the Polish tatars (known for their intense Polish patriotism and not-very-strict observance of muslim traditions).
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“The general lack of a social safety net means there’s basically no welfare immigration.”
– Welfare immigration should be banned today. Everywhere. When I emigrated to Canada, I signed papers guaranteeing that I wouldn’t ask for any social assistance for 10 years. I think that’s fair and right.
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“I think it may be dangerous to look like a Jew and / or Israeli on Paris’s and London’s streets those days.”
– Do you mean Hasidic Jews? because the rest don’t have a special “look.”
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Thanks, cliff. It was interesting to hear about your country.
I now had an idea for a new series of posts at Clarissa’s blog: Clarissa and then readers write a post about life in their country and answer questions (politics, gender relations, immigration, misconceptions foreigners tend to have, what future holds, etc).
Clarissa knows about Russia, Ukraine, USA and Canada. You – about Poland. I – Israel. 🙂
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I would be happy to post guest posts from long-time trusted readers.
But people who make silly infographics and write posts for hire, LEAVE ME ALONE NOW!!! I WILL NOT PUBLISH ANY OF YOUR GUESTS POSTS.
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// I would be happy to post guest posts from long-time trusted readers.
May be, you could put the offer in the next “Links” post?
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// – Do you mean Hasidic Jews? because the rest don’t have a special “look.”
They do. For instance, my grandmother had black hair and Jewish nose. My mother can be identified as a Jew too. I can’t, but that’s because of resembling my father.
I wanted to go with my mother.
“I wouldn’t be so worried about the Israelis abroad” — They are different Israelis. It’s not that hard to attack or “only” frighten two women.
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“They do. For instance, my grandmother had black hair and Jewish nose.”
– Everybody looks like this in the Mediterranean countries. 🙂 The French, the Spaniards, the Portuguese, the Italians, the Greeks all look like this. 🙂
Do you remember how the Soviet Union wouldn’t let people travel overseas so that they wouldn’t find out what things were like in other countries? Don’t let this be done to you. Everybody travels, everybody is perfectly fine. It is so wrong that you’d be prevented from traveling by this very shameless propaganda.
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Seconding this. Travel is an amazing experience.
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I love this nickname. 🙂
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// They are different Israelis.
THERE are, not “they” are.
Btw, how did you recognize those men as Jews? I don’t think they were Hasidic. 🙂 If you can, Muslims and other anti-Israeli people, who are potentially violent, can too.
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“Btw, how did you recognize those men as Jews? ”
– There were waving their passports around. The whole thing happened at Heathrow. There were crowds of Muslims around who, by the way, did not act in this very loud and obnoxious manner.
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\\ – Everybody looks like this in the Mediterranean countries.
I live in Israel and Jews don’t look like Arabs, including Jews from Eastern countries. People usually easily see the difference.
Btw, what is that about the French? I thought they were like Germans, fair hair and blue eyes. France is like Germany and Russia, not like Italy, no?
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People from Southern France will resemble Italians or Spaniards more than Germans or Russians. As for the whole worried-about-travelling-while-Jewish thing, it definitely won’t be a problem in Romania (people do say antisemitic things, but I can’t imagine anyone crossing the line to threats, let alone violence, nobody knows what “looking Jewish” means since a lot of the features, including the stereotypical nose, are stuff you find on lots of non-Jewish people in this area, and any tourists from Israel I’ve met never had any trouble, including an old man who barely had a clue where he was going and how he was supposed to get there). I don’t think Western Europe is as risky as you think either.
As for the difference between Jews and non-Jews, this is something you’re more likely to notice since you’re Jewish. I can often tell from which part of Romania someone is just by how they look, but most non-Romanian Europeans I’ve met could maybe tell someone was from SE Europe.
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\\ – Everybody looks like this in the Mediterranean countries.
Just to be sure, do they have Jewish nose too?
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You’ve never seen any Spaniards or Italians? really? 🙂 They have the kind of Jewish noses that Jews will envy. 🙂
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Those two articles are completely anti-Israel, but attempt to make a deep analysis, so I decided to link them:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n15/mouin-rabbani/israel-mows-the-lawn
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n16/nathan-thrall/hamass-chances
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Too frightening:
“Moshe Zalman Feiglin is an Israeli politician and columnist. He is one of ten Deputy Speakers of the Knesset, Knesset Member, and head of the Manhigut Yehudit (“Jewish Leadership”) faction of Israel’s governing Likud party.”
Op-Ed: My Outline for a Solution in Gaza
Clear and concise, the steps towards achieving quiet in Gaza.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/15326#.U-aYceN_tPk
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Is this a parody or is he being serious?
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Look at his other columns.
He is 100% serious. The only thought that supports me is that Israel has always had its fanatics, but hasn’t turned into a fascist state in much worse times than today. I don’t believe my country would do it now either. But the man is disturbing.
I voted for Likud only since I wanted Bibi as a PM, without looking at other party members. If he leaves and this man (or similar) takes his place, no way I would vote for them.
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Yes, I’ve researched him and he doesn’t seem very stable.
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A question: if one feels bad and anxious after reading the news, does it mean one has psychological problems? 🙂 Wondering where is the line between one’s natural tendency to be anxious and being naturally affected.
A North Miami Beach rabbi was murdered Saturday morning on his way to temple in what could be the latest show of growing anti-Semitism in the wake of the IDF’s Operation Protective Edge in the Gaza Strip, reported NBC.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4556859,00.html
Where were world’s Jews during Gaza op?
Op-ed: Only very small percentage of Paris and New York Jews turned out for pro-Israel rallies. It’s hard to take pride in these numbers.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4556235,00.html
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Oi, a smiley was supposed to be 😦
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“I have to say, more obnoxious, rude, loud and unpleasant individuals the world has never seen. …. These Israelis, however, …
And then I met another group of Israeli tourists and they were even worse.”
I generally can’t recognize Israelis until I hear them (Hebrew does have a very specific, unmistakable sound which is weird since none of the individual sounds are very unsual). I had an American friend in Poland who could spot them at a distance (she wasn’t Jewish but a very good friend of hers worked in the Israeli embassy).
In terms of body language they seem kind of American (if similar to anyone else) but I can’t pin any particular dress or physical features beyond that.
I’ve never had any personal bad experiences with Israelis though there are some horror stories of teenage groups brought in to Poland for holocaust tourism badly misbehaving (teenage years seem exactly the wrong age to inflict that kind of trauma on them so my biggest disapproval is reserved for those who would organize such things).
I was once at a hotel (in Bulgaria some years ago) where there was an Israeli group as well and I have to say I’ve _never_ seen such massive waste of food. I don’t know if that’s an Israeli thing or just that group but it was really gross.
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People who travel to Israel also seem to agree that everything is great except the service that is horrible everywhere.
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// People who travel to Israel also seem to agree that everything is great except the service that is horrible everywhere.
Is service terrible everywhere uniquely in Israel, or everywhere in almost every country?
I stayed at a hotel in Israel and had a great service. But we chose 4-5 star hotel.
After FSU, service in shops seems great, unless you fall on a FSU seller who kept the old habits. 🙂
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I don’t know, I haven’t been. But the stories about bad service in Israel are very numerous.
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Since we began to talk about travelling and you said you were interested in Turkey once (Turkey and Qatar support Hamas, thus Israel was so against Kerry’s giving those 2 countries a role in the current negotiations):
Just last May, a main Turkish newspaper claimed that Jews were responsible for the coal mine disaster in the west of the country that claimed the lives of 301 miners.
…
“Every day the situation gets more and more dangerous,” said Rafael Sadi, a spokesman for the Association of Turkish immigrants in Israel, who is in daily contact with members of the Jewish community in Turkey. “Soon it will come to murdering the Jews, and we as Turks living in Israel warn them about what is to come.”
He said the country’s Jewish community is very afraid. “There is talk of a request for protection from threats, I also have another name in Turkey-it is scary to walk around the streets, they don’t want anyone to know they are Jewish.”
http://www.jerusalemonline.com/news/world-news/the-jewish-world/turkish-jews-to-israelis-do-not-come-7166
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The reason why wouldn’t travel to Turkey is that female tourists are treated very shabbily there and I don’t see a reason to invest money into supporting sexism.
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How an Israeli writer sees Israeli society:
Israel’s Other War
http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/israels-other-war?utm_source=tny&utm_campaign=generalsocial&utm_medium=twitter&mbid=social_twitter
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Barbara Lerner Spectre (the founding director of Paideia, the European Institute for Jewish Studies in Sweden)
I think there is a resurgence of anti-Semitism because at this point in time Europe has not yet learned how to be multicultural. And I think we are going to be part of the throes of that transformation, which must take place. Europe is not going to be the monolithic societies they once were in the last century. Jews are going to be at the centre of that. It’s a huge transformation for Europe to make. They are now going into a multicultural mode and Jews will be resented because of our leading role. But without that leading role and without that transformation, Europe will not survive.
Do you agree about Jews being in the “leading role”? Sounds strange to me.
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