When people try this hard, one has to get suspicious:
Eastern and Western Ukraine have different histories and this sometimes leads to differences of opinion. Blogger Clarissa denies this, says that there are no differences of opinion among Ukrainians.
Yes, that’s exactly what I’ve been doing on this blog, denying that there are differences of opinion. That’s totally my entire mission.
I know it’s useless to argue once people have decided to accept Putin’s propaganda but I just can’t help it, I’ve got to try.
You and I, Steve, very obviously have different histories, would you agree with this statement?
And we also have a very obvious difference of opinion here, would you agree with that?
Still, these different histories and opinions are not provoking us into trying to kill each other, do they?
In my own family, I have a group of fiercely pro-Putin folks who live in the Donetsk and Lugansk areas (right in the war zone). But none of those people have taken up arms or are even remotely considering doing that. There is an enormous distance between having “an opinion” and taking a Kalashnikov and shooting into your neighbor’s face.
“Eastern Ukraine” is not fighting “Western Ukraine.” If you look at a map, you will see that “Eastern Ukraine” is overwhelmingly peaceful. Only a tiny little territory, less than 1% of the entire territory of Ukraine is in the hands of terrorists. You can see it here on the map marked in red:
And now a small question for you. Look at the area that is marked in red on the map, the war zone. Historically, this is a predominantly:
a) Russian-speaking, or
b) Ukrainian-speaking area?
What language did the most fiercely pro-Putin members of my family grow up speaking in the 1980s and 1990s in the Lugansk region?
If you can’t answer that, can we agree that your “opinion” on the subject of current events in Ukraine is not extremely well-informed? In any case, I promise that I still have no desire to murder you for it. Weird, huh?
Clarissa's Blog 
Frankly, I do not see why you are so invested in proving that there is no difference of opinions in Ukraine. Besides, you yourself are characterizing part of your family in Ukraine as pro-Putin. Since you (and most Ukrainians inside Ukraine) are not pro-Putin – here is your difference of opinions. Very obvious to me, looking from the side. Unless, of course, you want to tell us that your family members are the only sincere Putinistas in the whole Ukraine. But then they are not statistically valid representatives of anything…
P.S. I wanted to ask you for some time – is one of your sources a blog by certain Yury Nesterenko, by any chance?
P.P.S. Your map is not patriotic enough. Crimea should belong to Ukraine.
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OK, you are trying to be sarcastic, right? I’m at a service to the university community event and I’m losing my sense of humor. Then I’m going to the dentist and my sense of humor will die completely.
Never heard of Yuri Nesterenko. Do you have a link?
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Only partially sarcastic. The beginning of my message was dead serious. Something else starts from “Unless”.
http://yury-nesterenko.livejournal.com/
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Ok, then what exactly in my post could have let anybody, let alone a leading scholar in an unpronounceable field, conclude that my message is that there is no difference of opinion in Ukraine?? Yes, there is difference of opinion. Huge difference of opinion on pretty much any subject. But that never translated into people killing each other. I guess you have a difference of opinion with my colleague who thinks that Quebec nationalism rules. How likely are you to try to kill her?
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No, I never read this Nesterenko guy before. I’m having a difference of opinion with him. 🙂 But I do read Babchenko, the guy he quotes in one of the posts.
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// What language did the most fiercely pro-Putin members of my family grow up speaking in the 1980s and 1990s in the Lugansk region?
Was that Ukrainian? If so, I am surprised.
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I remember how my younger cousin from the region was teaching me to ride a bike – which is a difficult proposition under the best if circumstances but with a language barrier it is hopeless. He’d yell “Brake!” in Ukrainian and I’d yell “Translate!!” But he didn’t know how to.
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I was referring to the difference of opinion between people of separatist regions about the desired future of said regions existing independently of external influences. (I mean difference of opinions independent of external influences). Maybe it was not your intention, but apparently more than one person working in different unpronounceable fields got that impression that you are trying to minimize and dismiss the internal divisions and attribute all violence in Ukraine to external factors. Or attribute all anti-Ukrainian sentiments in parts of Eastern Ukraine to external factors. Etc. I recall you insisting that there are no “separatists” in Ukraine… Steve took it a bit too far and I regret that I sounded as if I see exactly the same thing he sees (I admit that I confused his words with yours, for what I apologize), but it seems to me there is some significant grain of truth in his perception.
As for your colleague, I will not attempt to kill her, of course. But imagine that political situation here in Quebec escalates, PQ manages to pin all problems on somebody else, win the elections and pull off a successful separation referendum. Then imagine that I will support some pro-Canadian Montreal separatists. Not in my own kitchen, but publicly. Publish certain article :), for instance… Chances are I will not only be called an “imperialist”, or a “Rhodesian”, or an “Angryphone”, but that I might become an object of actual physical violence by some Quebec patriots… Let’s face it, ANY society has some percentage of people willing to silence opponents with violence. Depending on the degree of such violence, I may be forced (if there is a threat to my family, for instance) to respond with violence. I am not telling that this is an exact reflection of what is happening in Ukraine, or that [whomever-you-call-them] in Ukraine are poor innocent lambs, or (god forbid) that Russia is not involved, I am just pointing out that the distance between civilized behavior and violence is not as large as some would like to believe, and does not necessarily require foreign interference.
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All violence in Ukraine is due solely and entirely to Russian terrorism. People have existed forever with their different opinions but the war started only when the Russians invaded. The logic of ” there is difference of opinion ergo there is civil war going on” is extremely bizarre to me.
I really don’t know what needs to happen for people to acknowledge that Russia invaded Ukraine. There is not a shred if evidence supporting the narrative of a “civil war” yet it’s all useless. When I write ” yes, there is major difference of opinion in Ukraine” and people read it as me saying that there is none, I don’t know what else can be done.
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“when the Russians invaded”
The psychological health of the West in general (and Putin fanboys especially) depends on not acknowledging that fact.
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I know, I know. But why, why? Do they feel guilt otherwise?
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“I know, I know. But why, why? Do they feel guilt otherwise?”
I think it’s more that if they admit that Putin has invaded and clearly wants to expand tertitorially thru military means then they’ll think they should do something and start to plan on what to do when he invades a baltic country (because the chances of him not doing that are essentially zero – even if every single russophone in those countries held hands at the border yelling Putin go home.
The west is like a woman who’s found a lump and is determined not to go to the doctor because she’s afraid of what it could be…
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Exactly. I hope our Baltic readers are reading this, khm khm.
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The next is a serious question, please forgive my ignorance but: is Spanish civil war any less of a civil war because of foreign participation? I mean Germans and Italians (with planes and other heavy armament) on one side, International brigades (with a lot of Soviet tanks and planes) on the other side…
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It is precisely because I know do much about the Spanish Civil War that I can tell you confidently that what is going on in Ukraine is not even remotely similar. In Spain, people were killing each other for years before the hostilities started in 1936. There were calls for war for quite a whole before, there was a revolution in Asturias that was drowned in blood, there were killings of priests, etc. The whole thing had been in the making for a very long time. When I start talking about the SCW in class I begin with ” So in the XVIIITH century…”
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Bravo Clarissa!
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Yay! Thank you for the support!
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