Need I say More?

~ Clarissa

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Published by Clarissa

28 thoughts on “Need I say More?”

  3. this is a tough one (i am sure you won’t agree). Many experts think the biggest foreign policy blunder was not integrating russia into nato and the western broader financial markets after the collapse of the ussr around 1991. We basically let both corruption run rampant, and were more than luke warm on russian integration politically and militarily.

    Now i think putin is definitely a bad guy, and certainly a power maniac. However, the real issue is long-term we have to have russia integrate more with the west if we don’t want to constantly fear war with them or satellite countries.

    So i would pose this to you because you both care about the ukraine deeply and likely know a lot about former ussr culture, what steps are needed to better integrate russia?(obviously its acceptable to say overthrow of putin and then steps x y z…etc if you feel that way). Honestly curious for you insight. i get you hate the guy and think trump is in bedwith him (not sure i agree, but i do see where you are coming from). What is your ideal proposed path?

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    1. Who told you that Russia wants to integrate into the West? Or do you plan to integrate them against their will? It’s 140 million people, by the way. And their whole national identity has been formed for 150 years on the idea of not being part of the West. They daily discuss on all the social media and the state-owned media how much they despise the Western values, the democracy, the Western lifestyles. How do you integrate people when they so clearly don’t want any of it?

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      1. remember yeltsin’s surprise at the supermarket in the 90’s? they simply aren’t well enough aware of the benefits of capitalism. I mean, most of eastern europe has thrived vs russia.. now they may have only been under ussr for halfthe time of the russians, but properly exposed , the russian citizenry would embrace a modified version over generations. what is the alternative? I ask seriously. Its easy to criticize, much harder to come up with solutions.

        I mean, look at japan. super poor, relatively backwards, with a very imperial empire for 100’s of years, now in some ways more consumeristic and tech savvy than the us. same for south korea is now primarily capitalistic, but still with their own flair. so absolutely, if given real choice and awareness (obviously a very long-term and hard, yet i say doable task) the russian citizens would prefer our system over the relaitve hell hole they have.

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        1. In Russia they are not enough aware of capitalism??? 🙂 This is the joke of the year.

          You don’t know anything at all about Russia, so this conversation is a waste of time. This “you live in a hell hole” approach from somebody who had never even been there is precisely why Russians despise Americans.

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          1. considering that the president was shocked by FREAKING SUPERMARKETS in the 1990’s, yes, they don’t know about real choice and the benefits of capitalism. and this is your ususal mo, shit on other ideas, but not offer concrete suggestions. was curious if you had any constructive ideas on reforming / improving us russian relations but my bad

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            1. It’s been a quarter of a century since then. Russia has tons of supermarkets, boutiques, online stores, and all kinds of shopping options. If anything, Russians know more than you do about capitalism because their version of capitalism is less mediated by the government than yours.

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        2. ” the russian citizens would prefer our system over the relative hell hole they have”

          There is a lot wrong here, let’s go through a bit.

          A large majority of Russians had no problem with the USSR and were not greatly dissatisfied with the system in place in when it ceased to exist. Other peoples may have been (those in the Baltic or Warsaw pact countries were all delighted to get rid of communism) but Russians were okay with it. There were some minor irritations but they no more wanted a radically new system than did Americans at that time.
          Re-read point 1 several dozen times and then move on, dissidents were a tiny fringe that got a yuuuge amount of attention in the West but didn’t really represent any kind of broad group of people who wanted things to fundamentally change.
          the USSR was followed by a lot of chaos (Russians do not do smooth transitions of power) including several years of Wild West Capitalism with no government control whatsoever – they essentially had the libertarian dream of no government interference in the economy which quickly turned into mafia wars (supposedly they had police and a legal system but …. ha ha ha! they didn’t!)
          Putin is popular because he’s returned elements of the Soviet system which Russian people on the whole are in favor of. People don’t have to make decisions and for the most part violence between mafia factions is kept out of sight now. Occasionally te government kills some people but Russians genuinely don’t mind when the government kills citizens which is why there’s been no effort to bring communist criminals to justice.
          Supermarkets are trivial and have nothing to do with the values of the people shopping in them.
          Many, many Russians have travelled abroad and those who can afford it like the idea of an escape hole they can bolt to if things get too hot at home – But they do not perceive anything in other countries as anything they want or need in Russia anymore than Americans who like to vacation in Europe want to turn the US into a parliamentary system.
          American values are not universal and just exposing other people to them does not make people want American style systems.

          *defined here as ethnic Russians and/or citizens of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic – the entity that is now “Russia”

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          1. Despite Russians openly rejecting American value system, I actually find it very useful to imagine Russia as some sort of a parody of the US. This may be difficult for the Americans to notice or admit (because it also requires recognizing certain things that are wrong with the US), but I find this model to have decent predictive power. You can imagine Putin asking himself “what would the US do in this situation?” before making decisions. Making some decisions on principle, just because this is “what superpower would do”. Russia perceives itself as a superpower that in the just world would be equal to the US. And Russians place very high value on “justice”, not in any legal terms, but in metaphysical ones, so to speak. Thus, the only way Russia could be “integrated” into NATO was if it was allowed to play a leading role. Now think back of the US. Would the US REALLY want such NATO where some Estonia or even Belgium could REALLY influence the US decisions on when to go to war and with whom? The same way Russia does not want to integrate into anything that would limit their options.
            Example with Japan is wrong on several levels. Japan was bombed into ruins (including with nuclear devices) and occupied. Yes, some westerners went to Russia in the early 90-ies and reported something warzone-like. In part it was true, in part just a manifestation of contrast, of westerners being used to comfortable life. Believe me, even an anti-Putin person like me would rather return to the 90-ies in Russia than experience the end of WWII in Japan. Importantly, Japanese (and also Germans) have much higher propensity to obey the authorities. Also the West in the 80-ies was not the same as in the 40-ies. Solid statesmen of the 40-ies (with all their many faults) gave way to dreamers who believed that if something was right in their opinion, it was also an objective reality, or at least that any sane person should think and feel the same. (Same phenomenon bit democrats in the ass two weeks ago, by the way, but since at least the 80-ies this is a universal feature of the US politics, no just of progressives/democrats.)

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            1. “I actually find it very useful to imagine Russia as some sort of a parody of the US”

              That actually makes a lot of sense.

              “who believed that if something was right in their opinion, it was also an objective reality, or at least that any sane person should think and feel the same”

              This is absolutely the biggest problem with American foreign policy – the inability to imagine people working out a different value system, which means they don’t share fundamental premises much less more developed policy goals….

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            2. appreciate the perspective and information. so i will then pose to you the question clarissa wouldn’t answer: what should be done on russia? perhaps your answer would be just accept status quo, genuinely curious as you seem to know a good bit on this matter

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            3. Great comment, valter07. “Why can’t we do what Americans do (eg. invade and bomb at will)?” is a common way of thinking among Russians. Even my very anti-Putin husband expressed this idea.

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          2. very much appreciate the perspective and information. so i will then pose to you the question clarissa wouldn’t answer: what should be done on russia? perhaps your answer would be just accept status quo, genuinely curious as you seem to know a good bit on this matter

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            1. “what should be done on russia?”

              What happens inside Russia is not the US’s business, Russians should be able to order their society as they wish – if that means a return to USSR style dullness and repression then that’s their choice.

              The question is how to prevent Russia from invading its neighbors, arming them and making it clear that NATO will honor its commitment is a start.

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            2. Actually learn from your mistakes and do not repeat the things that definitely do not work.
              Was Saddam bad? Yes he was. Did removing him bring peace and happiness to Iraq and vicinity?
              Was Qaddafi bad?
              Was Yanukovitch bad?
              Was Miloshevich bad?
              Is Asad bad? Sure. But have everyone already forgotten what was the end result of arming the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan in the 1980ies?
              Etc.
              The same way removing Putin will not solve any problems, especially if the people perceive that he was removed by external forces. Every nation should evolve into democracy at its own pace. Yes, our hearts are aching at the sight of people being killed. But didn’t removing Saddam or Qaddafi cost more in human lives than leaving them alone? Let’s actually put more value on the lives of the people of foreign countries than on our own psychological comfort (as in having to do something to feel good because we did something). The West needs a long-term game plan. Much longer than any election cycle.
              And I agree with Cliff – this long-term game plan should include some serious promise of support to Eastern Europe. But it also should include achieving actual moral superiority over the opponents. So far the West is just supporting “our SOBs” versus “their SOBs”…

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            3. Ban Russia from SWIFT, arrest the property Russian oligarchs have in the US, deport all family members of Russian officials and force Europe to do the same. This is something I- and many other people – have been saying for years. These are clear, practical measures that can be adopted today.

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          3. Cliff is absolutely right. The overwhelming majority of Russians today say that they gladly reject the abundance of goods and a huge variety of consumerist choices if they can go back to some version of the USSR instead. People in Russia genuinely support and love Putin because that’s what he’s giving them.

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  5. ““We are so wonderful, everybody must certainly want to be like us!” is a very typically American way of thinking”

    I’m planning a post in a day or so on one possible origin for that….

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