Actually, I really REALLY wish English departments did give grammar tests and make passing their courses contingent on having good grammar. I’m seeing a bizarre situation where our students have a better grasp of the Spanish grammar than they do of their native English.
I understand that it’s humiliating to have to explain first-grade basics to college students but you can’t award degrees to people who go “Ah! Interesting!” when you inform them of the difference between its and it’s to them in their senior year.
Clarissa's Blog 
My department (English) has a whole grammar course, but I’m not sure how much it helps.
I tell students that subject + verb gets the apostrophe: he’s, she’s, it’s. Possessive pronouns omit it: his, hers, its.
It seems simple to me, but doesn’t seem to penetrate; either students know it when they come in, or they never get it.
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It’s true, these kinds of things are so hard to get through. In Spanish it’s the personal a that never sinks in no matter what one does.
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Yes, this–the ones who will pass already know it, and the ones that don’t usually won’t get it through traditional grammar instruction.
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I don’t think it’s an issue of instruction. There’s nothing here to instruct. It’s simply a refusal even to try. This is why I’m saying that graduation should be contingent on a grammar test. Give them a reason to make an effort.
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The big problem is that the models of English grammar used to teach English grammar to native speakers are hopelessly bad (no European language has ‘traditional grammar’ descriptions that are worse). They are essentially unworkable but if you try to replace them with something that makes more sense people want to try you for witchcraft. So most schools get around that by just avoiding talk of grammar (or they go with the old useless models that only confused students).
The models used for teaching English a second language are are superior and I’ve been arguing for years that they should be used as a new basis for teaching grammar to native speakers.
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“The models used for teaching English a second language are are superior and I’ve been arguing for years that they should be used as a new basis for teaching grammar to native speakers.”
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The models used for teaching English a second language are are superior and I’ve been arguing for years that they should be used as a new basis for teaching grammar to native speakers.
Yes, yes, yes!
It’s/its, there/their/they’re, who’s/whose — these are really not that hard to grasp, I will never understand why they are so challenging to native speakers. It’s like people cannot distinguish between homophones. I know for a fact kids have spelling drills in grades 1-4 focusing on homophones, and my older two kids spell really well (the little one is 5), but I see that their same-age friends do not.
I am personally a grammar and punctuation nerd, and I am fascinated by linguistics (the little that I know). I would imagine learning about grammar (and linguistics, more generally) could be inherently appealing to people who are in math-based fields.
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ESL faculty are generally way less bleeding-heart than faculty who grew up speaking English.
If someone thinks that English verb and noun forms are complicated, they really need to check out some other languages.
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“but you can’t award degrees to people who go “Ah! Interesting!” when you inform them of the difference between its and it’s to them in their senior year.”
Of course you can! You just check the box for some passing grade in the online system that grades are submitted to, then print out a piece of paper that says “Bachelor of Arts” and you’re done! Easy!
Now, the question of whether you should award them degrees is an entirely different one. But since when are universities interested in what they should do in regard to academic standards?
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Yes, it happens all the time because it’s easy to give the students whatever grade they want and get rid of them. I’m not blaming anybody, I fall into this temptation, too.
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Why do native speakers in college who don’t have learning disabilities make these rather basic grammar mistakes? Please don’t say that English grammar and syntax are absurd or that models of English grammar are bad.
I don’t think it has anything to do with that. People are just lazy and they calculate (correctly or incorrectly) that proper usage has no effect on their lives or ability to make a living.
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“Please don’t say that … that models of English grammar are bad.”
But they are. Another contributing factor is monolingualism. You don’t expect a goldfish to discover water. The first foreign language is often the key that makes grammar make sense (in an abstract way at least).
There’s a reason that foreign languae learning has always been at the core of most western education models. It has knock on benefits that are far greater than learning some of a particular foreign language.
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Maybe my primary education was atypical. I’m not sure learning French actually helped me with English grammar and syntax. Of course I learned English grammar in school through various forms of repetition, drills and I think at one point I diagrammed sentences. It’s not like some light bulb switched on for English syntax and grammar when I had to learn different tenses in French in high school.
There’s a reason that foreign languae learning has always been at the core of most western education models. It has knock on benefits that are far greater than learning some of a particular foreign language.
I thought foreign languages were at the core because 1)most Western education models occur in places where you don’t have to travel very far to find someone who speaks a different language (vs. the United States) and 2)they were modeled after elite education models meant for courtiers who often married between courts.
The errors Clarissa is complaining of are basic speaking level errors with pronouns and possessives. Spelling and verb endings are highly idiosyncratic in English; possessives and pronouns are not.
Yes, the models are not great. But I really think most of those particular errors are due to laziness. Faulty grammar school instruction is not the problem with native speakers who manage to get through 12 years of education, write admissions essays and take standardized tests to gain admittance to college.
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I agree that this is laziness and carelessness. It’s not that hard to remember
It’s/ its. Just memorize it once and that’s it.
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“Maybe my primary education was atypical. I’m not sure learning French actually helped me with English grammar and syntax.”
But I thought your upbringing included other languages at home as well. Even if your knowledge of those others is only passive and partial that was probably enough to activate the Comparative Language Device in your brain.
“I thought foreign languages were at the core because ”
Those were the original reasons but if you look at modern Europe, the overall worst communicators on the continent are monolingual Brits – they are truly pathetic at crossing any kind of communication barrier.
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But I thought your upbringing included other languages at home as well. Even if your knowledge of those others is only passive and partial that was probably enough to activate the Comparative Language Device in your brain.
It must truly be a scanty amount then. My parents spoke Kannada mostly to each other. They deliberately did not speak it most of the time to me. There were some incredibly minimal classes (like maybe 4 hours) which never got past the point of “these are sounds and characters for the alphabet and here are some words that start with each character.” There wasn’t any “this is a verb, this is a noun, this is an adjective, this is the ending you attach when you address someone who is elder/younger to you (no twins), this is an insult.” I didn’t really think of learning songs (several languages) as language instruction although I learned the meaning and how to say it.
the overall worst communicators on the continent are monolingual Brits – they are truly pathetic at crossing any kind of communication barrier.
Don’t they have to cross the Channel to get to the continent?
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“It must truly be a scanty amount then”
Or you’re just smart and/or different from most people in some way.
“Don’t they have to cross the Channel to get to the continent?”
They don’t use boats anymore. Probably about 99% of their travel to other places is by plane and there’s not much difference from London to Warsaw and Paris to Warsaw.
What I’ve observed is that in situations when communication starts breaking down they can’t control their vocabulary or break up longer thoughts into smaller ones or paraphrase the way most Europeans (for whom foreign language is a normal part of school) can. All they can do is repeat what they’re saying (which is already not working).
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I work in an Elementary School in Manitoba, and most of the teachers do not know the basics of Grammar, let alone teach it to their students.
The worst was a grade 2 teacher who said, “Me and her done that already,” when giving an update at a staff meeting. She spoke like this in her classroom all the time. Many or there teachers don’t know the difference between I and me, she and her, he and and him, etc. Nor do they always use the correct tense.
It’s no surprise to me that students get to University not knowing how to speak or write English, when their primary school teachers can’t either.
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Looking at the third sentence of the second paragraph it looks like I don’t either.
It should have been “Many of their”. I blame it on Autocorrect, my big thumbs, and the tiny font on my phone.
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My phone keeps autocorrecting every its to it’s making me sound like the very people I criticize. Very annoying.
But yes, there’s definitely a problem with professors making these same mistakes out of carelessness and setting a horrible example.
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Well, as Alan Jay Lerner said (channeling the spirit of G. B. Shaw):
“Why can’t the English teach their children how to speak?
This verbal class distinction by now should be antique
If you spoke as she does, sir, Instead of the way you do
Why, you might be selling flowers, too
“An Englishman’s way of speaking absolutely classifies him
The moment he talks he makes some other Englishman despise him
One common language I’m afraid we’ll never get
Oh, why can’t the English learn to set
A good example to people whose English is painful to your ears?
The Scotch and the Irish leave you close to tears
There even are places where English completely disappears
In America, they haven’t used it for years!
“Why can’t the English teach their children how to speak?
Norwegians learn Norwegian; the Greeks are taught their Greek
In France every Frenchman knows his language from “A” to “Zed”
The French never care what they do, actually, as long as they pronounce it properly
“Arabians learn Arabian with the speed of summer lightning
And Hebrews learn it backwards, which is absolutely frightening
But use proper English, you’re regarded as a freak
Oh, why can’t the English
Why can’t the English learn to speak?”
Or just go here for the full—and highly entertaining—discussion. Professor Higgins is your guide: https://youtu.be/EAYUuspQ6BY
Cheers,
Reed
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This got me thinking and that led to a post…
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