Over a dozen times in the past week I have seen words “tasty” and “delicious” placed next to a description of Chick-Fil-A meals. This has got me wondering. Are people who write such things completely nuts? We have this pathetic excuse for food sold on our campus and I tried it twice. It tastes completely disgusting. The so-called chicken is made of stale cardboard. The fries are soggy and extremely oversalted. I felt woozy and bloated for hours after I ate this shit. A while later, I even tried it one other time to make sure I was giving the place the benefit of the doubt. Bleh! I still want to vomit as I think about it. Burger King is a Michelin-quality joint compared to Chick-Fil-A*.
I understand that nobody cares about the nutritional properties of this garbage in the midst of an important discussion on gay rights. But as much as I abhor the homophobic beliefs of people who flocked to the chain and bought its disgusting junk to support the hateful beliefs of its owners, I couldn’t help feeling compassion for the folks who not only bought but actually ate – put in their bodies! – crazy amounts of this poison in the midst of a heavy heat wave. I mean, go ahead buy it to support hatred everywhere, that’s your God-given right, but at least don’t consume the crap.
In my Spanish Beginners II class, I once decided to help students learn the names of different foodstuffs in Spanish.
“Tell me what your favorite foods are,” I suggested, “and I will teach you how to say it in Spanish.”
Immediately, students started sharing.
“Chicken!”
“Fried chicken!”
“Chicken tenders!”
“Chicken nuggets!”
“Chicken wings!”
That was when I realized that the activity wasn’t going as planned. Of course, I tried making my own suggestions because there is a limit to how many times you can say “pollo” in a classroom and not get bored. The students didn’t want to discuss anything but chicken, though. Beef and pork were deemed “boring”, rabbit and duck were disgusting, and all the different vegetables I started naming made students make vomiting noises.
People’s palates are woefully undeveloped. This country is the best place ever to explore all the permutations of all the amazing cuisines of the world. You can develop gastronomically as much as you want and not get financially ruined in the process. Yet people choose to eat the same chicken flavored cardboard day in and day out. This is incomprehensible to me.
* There is, however, one place that is worse even than Chick-Fil-A. It’s called “Arby’s.” I visited it once back in Indiana and I still have nightmares.
P.S. I swear to God, if anybody leaves an idiotic comment of the “Everybody should have the right to eat whatever they want” variety, I’ll bite their head off. I’m not proposing constitutional amendments preventing outlawing consumption of garbage. I’m just suggesting that people are limiting their experience of the world for no reason.
Clarissa's Blog 
Personally, I do not eat in fast-food restaurants. I do not enjoy the ambience and I understand that the food tends to be high in calories and fat. However, I enjoy an income that allows me to pay more for my food. You encourage both parents in families to work. This imposes a cost on preparing food at home – which of course is the healthiest way to live for those who understand good nutrition. However, you now metamorphose into a Mayor Bloomberg when discussing the contents of Chick-fil-A meals. Less well-off families with children are limited in where they can eat. There is little difference between the fast-food restaurants, so distance matters. Your tastes and health may differ from others. Where incomes, health and tastes and travel costs differ, so will individual choices. That is is the beauty of a market system. You know that from your childhood experiences of communism where there was virtually no choice, dreadful ambience and disgusting service. So you should rejoice in the freedom that Americans have to make their choices – and not denigrate those who choose differently from yourself, whatever criteria drive such choices.
LikeLike
“So you should rejoice in the freedom that Americans have to make their choices – and not denigrate those who choose differently from yourself, whatever criteria drive such choices.”
What part of “Do not tell Clarissa what she SHOULD or SHOULD NOT do on her own blog” do you not get? I’ve lost count how many times she and other readers have told you that that prescriptive, condescending attitude is bad blogging manners.
LikeLike
I’m not a choice feminist. But it sounds like you are. 🙂
LikeLike
If people do not eat healthier food because they cannot afford it, or it is not sold within 50 miles, or whatever, there is no choice involved, and nothing to rejoice about. If people can afford healthier food but still choose to eat crap, one may rejoice about the presence of choice, on purely philosophical grounds, but… Believe me, no-one among those dreaming of western-style freedom was dreaming of eating crap…
LikeLike
It is absolutely not true that people can’t afford to eat healthy meals and that fast food is cheap. Maybe that was true years ago — like, in the 1970s — but a meal at a fast food restaurant will put you back anywhere from seven to ten dollars if you’re an adult, and the children’s meals aren’t really all that cheap (and you shouldn’t feed your kids that crap regularly anyway).
Believe me, I’ve never been rich, and have often been so broke I’ve gone hunting for stray pennies in the parking lot. I have done the math, and you can make yourself cheap, nutritious meals for only a few cents per day. However, you have to be willing to 1) go to the grocery store more than once a month, 2) not by the processed, pre-packaged garbage when you’re there (no frozen pizzas, mac ‘n’cheese mix, Hamburger Helper — none of that shit), and you have to be willing to try food out of your comfort range. That means vegetables and meat that isn’t breaded chicken boobs.
But you obviously missed where Clarissa described the reactions of her students, all I am sure from the Heartland of America where you can grow just about anything, to the idea of eating anything that wasn’t a pre-processed chicken part. Didn’t you read the part about the vomiting noises the kids made when she mentioned vegetables? (Quite frankly I don’t understand people who don’t like vegetables. I have always loved vegetables, with a few exceptions, and even those have become fewer as I discovered, for instance, that fresh beets and fresh asparagus is nothing like the canned versions.) American tastes have been ruined by the horrible diets fast food restaurants, boxed-meal manufacturers, and lazy parents have given them.
Anyway, getting back to the so-called “high cost” of fresh food: bullshit. Fresh vegetables are not expensive, except for certain items that only appear in season. Cooking a meal from fresh food does not have to take a lot of time — there are so many “meals in minutes” books and websites. People just don’t want to do it, they’re lazy, they’d rather sit sprawled on their couch while a food truck comes by and shovels garbage into their open mouths. I’m sick of it — sick of food that tastes like ass and vomit, sick of over-salted, over-cooked, fried processed crap being passed off as food, and of people apologizing for it with outright lies: “it’s too expensive and takes too much time!”
Anyway, Chick-Fil-A used to be pretty good — years ago. I think the last time I ate a Chick-Fil-A meal was in Orlando, which would make it a good three years ago. As I recall, I pulled the nasty, salty, slimy thing they’d passed off as a “Char-grill Deluxe” from my mouth, put it on the tray, and slid the whole meal into the garbage. Also I’m pretty sure the waffle fries were cold. Whatever, I haven’t been back since. I used to like Arby’s as well, but they’ve gone downhill in the past few years too. I made the mistake of eating at one in Virginia, and spent the rest of the night running to the bathroom. This may of course not hold true for these establishments in your part of the country, but they have so far in mine.
LikeLike
“Anyway, getting back to the so-called “high cost” of fresh food: bullshit. Fresh vegetables are not expensive, except for certain items that only appear in season. Cooking a meal from fresh food does not have to take a lot of time — there are so many “meals in minutes” books and websites. People just don’t want to do it, they’re lazy, they’d rather sit sprawled on their couch while a food truck comes by and shovels garbage into their open mouths. I’m sick of it — sick of food that tastes like ass and vomit, sick of over-salted, over-cooked, fried processed crap being passed off as food, and of people apologizing for it with outright lies: “it’s too expensive and takes too much time!””
– Exactly! I was in grad school for many years, both my husband and I have experienced unemployment, now we both work full time. Yet we always eat fresh produce and good meals made from scratch and we don’t use either TV dinners or fast food.
LikeLike
While in principle I agree with Clarissa and twisted on this I do point out that there are poor neighborhoods with weak public transportation and no fresh food for sale for miles (and no supermarkets). And precarious food storage and cooking possibilities in the houses. And Mom and Pop stores selling pork fried rice, fried chicken, crackers, and things like this. And residents of these neighborhoods who are still not really used to leaving because venturing into other parts of town was prohibited for so long (here in Austin, for instance, persons of color were apparently not allowed West of Congress St. until 1970). And you can eat for far less than $7-$10 at these Mom and Pops. This is where V really has a point…
LikeLike
“While in principle I agree with Clarissa and twisted on this I do point out that there are poor neighborhoods with weak public transportation and no fresh food for sale for miles (and no supermarkets). And precarious food storage and cooking possibilities in the houses. And Mom and Pop stores selling pork fried rice, fried chicken, crackers, and things like this.”
– These are not the same people, though, as the idiots who came to the CFA appreciation day. I understand that the people you describe often have no choice and I’d never criticize them. But the jerks who stormed to CFA looked like they could definitely afford something better than fast food in all the footage I’ve seen.
LikeLike
True, that. And/but I still think your point and twisted’s, that except in circumstances like those I describe, it is in fact laziness that leads people to say they do not have time to cook … and misinformation that tells them it is too expensive to do so, is really worth making.
LikeLike
“And/but I still think your point and twisted’s, that except in circumstances like those I describe, it is in fact laziness that leads people to say they do not have time to cook … and misinformation that tells them it is too expensive to do so, is really worth making.”
– Besides the laziness and the misinformation, I believe there is also this resistance to being overindulgent, to enjoying life, to treating one’s physiology with joy. I find this quite similar to the attitude to sex we have been discussing recently. When people say they eat over the kitchen sink because thy have no time, it makes no sense. How long does it take to sit down? I think they just like to be able to flaunt the martyrdom of being too busy to sit down to eat.
LikeLike
Oh, yes! My God, it all fits in with the time my friend called me decadent (it was a compliment). She was living at beach and stuck on dissertation, wanted me to come for the weekend, visit beach and discuss dissertation, so I did — on condition that I be the activity planner.
We: went to beach, chatted about dissertation and work while swimming and strolling; went to pleasant dinner and then film in gorgeous theatre with garden, taking a break in conversation from work; then went home and stayed up late, talking in focused way on dissertation, figuring it out and writing the outline. I was more or less being her blackboard, since it was on an author I didn’t know, in another language, so I was a useful mirror because I did know the period.
Then we were done. Slept late, got up and went to brunch by the beach to celebrate, feeling like victorious empowered people.
She called me “decadent” since I had caused us to go to the beach twice, go to 2 restaurants, and go out to that lovely theatre, all within the same 24 hours, but the point is that we also got a lot done; she wrote her prospectus the next week and the committee liked it. Decadence of this kind is good, but it seems to be un-American!!!
LikeLike
“She called me “decadent” since I had caused us to go to the beach twice, go to 2 restaurants, and go out to that lovely theatre, all within the same 24 hours, but the point is that we also got a lot done; she wrote her prospectus the next week and the committee liked it. Decadence of this kind is good, but it seems to be un-American!!!”
– I know exactly what you mean. 🙂 I tend to get the “decadent, indulgent, spoiled” comments all the time. 🙂
To other participants in the thread: do you see how easy it is to achieve important insights in a discussion when people think about each other’s comments and engage in a dialogue, instead of repeating the same old thing like a broken record?
LikeLike
Where did you miss the point I made that $7-$10 per meal is a lot of fucking money compared to buying food at the grocery store. And I need more evidence that the fact that no one could leave a neighborhood in 1970 means they are disinclined to do so in 2012. And so on.
Look. A lot of bad eating habits are just that: habits. And also a lot of people were raised on crap food so those are their tastes. But saying that “fast food helps poor people because it’s cheaper” is bullshit. It might be cheaper in the short run time wise — yes going to the grocery store is tiresome, I do find it so, and just buying a meal for the kids that’s already made so they’ll shut up at least gets you some quiet moments — but in the long run it’s costlier to your pocketbook and to your healthy. I have not just pulled these speculations out of my ass, I lived them.
LikeLike
Rabbit and duck, disgusting? Blasphemy! I had a French acquaintance who was vegetarian, and when she was taken out on a celebratory dinner with her colleagues to a French restaurant, she went off of her vegetarianism just to have the duck, and boldly declared that duck was a type of vegetable to justify it. 🙂
There are no Chik-Fil-A restaurants in Canada, and there were none in any of the states I lived in when I was in America, so I’ve been watching the drama bomb unfold from a safe distance. The only valuable thing I am getting out of it is two observations, one, is that it’s time we started thinking and talking more about money (and how you spend it) as a form of speech, and two, that it’s hilariously ironic that Americans who otherwise wouldn’t care one way or another about the civil rights of people like me are suddenly experts on the topic, because it relates tangentially to deep fried fast food.
LikeLike
I think it’s irresponsible of parents to feed shit to their children. If you can’t afford decent food (ie anything opposite of deep fried garbage), then either get another job or at the very least do not procreate.
LikeLike
When I was a kid my parents started serving duck instead of turkey at Thanksgiving because we were a small family and everyone was sick of all the leftover turkey. Also, I have not had the deliciousness that is Thai Crispy Duck in years because of pocketbook woes, but that may have to change soon.
As for rabbit, I only had it once, in a café in Geneva while my mother and I were waiting for a train. It was really tough, but it tasted good.
There is also quail. Oh, delicious little birds braised in some sort of sauce that is made of love and heaven, come to me.
LikeLike
“There is also quail. Oh, delicious little birds braised in some sort of sauce that is made of love and heaven, come to me.”
– Maybe I should share my bacon-wrapped quail recipe. 🙂
LikeLike
“The only valuable thing I am getting out of it is two observations, one, is that it’s time we started thinking and talking more about money (and how you spend it) as a form of speech, and two, that it’s hilariously ironic that Americans who otherwise wouldn’t care one way or another about the civil rights of people like me are suddenly experts on the topic, because it relates tangentially to deep fried fast food.”
– This is valuable. And very well put. 🙂
LikeLike
“Rabbit and duck, disgusting? Blasphemy! I had a French acquaintance who was vegetarian, and when she was taken out on a celebratory dinner with her colleagues to a French restaurant, she went off of her vegetarianism just to have the duck, and boldly declared that duck was a type of vegetable to justify it. ”
– 🙂 I offered to share with the students my stewed rabbit recipe but they refused. We have great tender rabbits sold for $11 which is a very good price given that I get a dinner for 2 for 3 nights out of it.
LikeLike
No, no, don’t discourage homophobes from eating Chick-Fil-A. The more they eat, the sooner they’ll all die of heart-attacks and we can be rid of them completely.
LikeLike
Good point. 🙂
LikeLike
Did I just notice a little bit of news speak?
Is “Traditional marriage” what the anti same sex marriage lobby are calling marriage to differentiate it without sounding negative?
A bit like the anti-abortionists calling themselves pro-lifers.
Why do they care who gets married?
LikeLike
“Good point???” Oh good heavens, So anyone who speaks out in favor of traditional marriage is homophobic, and anyone who engages in free speech that Benoni doesn’t agree with deserves to die? Is that what you considered to be the “good point,” or did I miss something?
LikeLike
You can chill out. This was just a joke. I was raised by very strict Confucian parents, so I don’t believe anybody deserves death.
If you speak out in favour of “traditional marriage”, you are necessarily speaking out AGAINST affording the same rights married partners enjoy to same-sex couples. Can you really, in all seriousness, say, “I’m not a homophobe, I just think gay people aren’t entitled to the same rights as me”?
Part of what freedom is, is having to accept the consequences of your actions when you choose to act on said freedom. Its certainly your right to speak out in favour of “traditional marriage”, but that also means you’ll have to endure the consequence of being thought of as a bigot by those of us who have an ounce of compassion in our bodies. The right to be heard does not include the right to be taken seriously.
LikeLike
“Oh good heavens, So anyone who speaks out in favor of traditional marriage is homophobic, and anyone who engages in free speech that Benoni doesn’t agree with deserves to die? Is that what you considered to be the “good point,” or did I miss something?”
– You missed the entire exchange, it seems. 🙂 If people want to eat garbage and cause damage to their health, it’s their right to do so. And it’s my right to laugh at their stupidity. Which part of this great point 🙂 do you disagree with?
LikeLike
Benoni,
“Its certainly your right to speak out in favour of “traditional marriage”, but that also means you’ll have to endure the consequence of being thought of as a bigot by those of us who have an ounce of compassion in our bodies.”
I’m glad you have an ounce of compassion in your body, you might now see if you can recognize nuances.
If you write a comment calling people homophobes and telling those who refer to traditional marriage that they have to bear the consequences, then you also have to bear the consequences of what you said. If you consider those who favor traditional marriage to be bigots, then you might do well to realize that it is not they who are the bigots.
Chik Fil A appreciation day was about responding to bullying by politicians.
Clarissa,
What’s not to understand? Your response was to Benoni. So when you said “good point”, I assumed you were agreeing with him.
LikeLike
“telling those who refer to traditional marriage that they have to bear the consequences”
– Refer what to traditional marriage?
“If you consider those who favor traditional marriage to be bigots, then you might do well to realize that it is not they who are the bigots.”
– Grammatically, this sentence makes zero sense. It’s bigoted to use the word bigot? That can hardly be what you wanted to say.
“Chik Fil A appreciation day was about responding to bullying by politicians.”
– If this is true, then people who participated are infantile in the extreme. Politicians couldn’t care less what kind of crap you choose to stuff in your body. The only productive and adult way to respond to politicians is by participating in the political process through:
a) voting;
b) running for office.
The use of the word “bullying” in this context betrays a very immature mentality that tries to explain the world of adults with the vocabulary of the playground.
LikeLike
I also feel bothered by this “traditional marriage” terminology. If by “traditional marriage” you refer to heterosexual marriage, then I feel very insulted. I’m in a heterosexual marriage but it is in no way “traditional.” I hate the word “traditional” and would never be caught dead in anything of the kind. I have a good, happy heterosexual marriage, not this pathetic, miserable traditional kind. Let’s not automatically assume that all heteros are miserable, pathetic freaks just because the owner of Chick-Fil-A is.
LikeLike
I think you are misunderstanding the bullying that was going on to Chick-Fil-A. If you mean bullying as in namecalling, then I agree wholeheartedly, people should grow up, but the mayors of Boston and Chicago were/are attempting to prevent any Chick-Fil-A’s from opening up in their cities because of the anti-gay views of the owner. Ideology aside, that is a very bad precedent to set. This is supposed to be a country that allows free speech, even hateful speech.
The market is the democracy for the production and distribution for goods and services. So just how if someone doesn’t like a politician’s views, they can vote them out, if someone doesn’t like a private company’s views, then they can refuse to buy that company’s product. But to start banning companies from opening in this area or that because one doesn’t like their views is opening up a Pandora’s box.
A lot of the support for Chick-Fil-A hasn’t been about people being supportive of their views as it is people being against the city governments trying to essentially outlaw a company based on their not liking its opinions. I’d say if anything, it’s those politicians who need to grow up. So the company’s owner hates gays. Then don’t eat there.
LikeLike
“If you consider those who favor traditional marriage to be bigots, then you might do well to realize that it is not they who are the bigots.”
The way you phrase it, you seem to understand the message of speaking out “in favour” of “traditional marriage” as a celebration of heterosexual love. It isn’t. The people who turned up Chick-Fil-A Appreciation Day were there to support the statement made Dan T. Cathy when he spoke out AGAINST same-sex marriage. Now, surely I don’t need to point out that you’re a bigot if you believe certain types of people are entitled to a civil liberty, while other types aren’t?
Don’t get me wrong, I think heterosexual marriage is swell too, when it’s between two compassionate people who love and respect each other. But in the same circumstances, why can’t same-sex marriage also be swell? You see, Dan Cathy treats his fellow human beings differently because of frivolous separations that mean absolutely nothing, and that’s what makes him (and his supporters) bigoted.
LikeLike
If I hear one more stupid, idiotic, pathetic patch of pond scum squealing like piglets at slaughter time about how they or Chik-Fil-A are being oh-so bullied by this campaign against them, I’m going to start hitting them over the head with a clue-by-four.
You want to know what bullying looks like? Try having powerful, moneyed groups advocating not only against your right to marry your partner, but also believing your very existence is criminal. Chik-Fil-A’s CEO gave bucketloads of money to the Family Research Council, who tried to stop Congress from passing a resolution condemning Uganda’s “Kill the Gays” bill, to the tune of thousands of dollars, and advocated in favour of criminal sanctions against “homosexual behaviour”.
Hate speech is not free speech, only people who are lucky enough to have never had their safety threatened believe such garbage. Hate speech kills people. People like me are kicked out of their homes, barred from shelters, denied housing and employment, threatened, bullied, physically assaulted, driven to suicide, and murdered on a daily basis. If you think that some douchebag’s right to use his money to support creating a literal underclass out of queer people, without being called out on what a monstrous act it is, is more horrific and more of a threat to civil liberties than our safety and lives being threatened and disregarded, then I sincerely hope you do choke on a chicken bone of false equivalency.
LikeLike
The problem is that “hate speech” can be a very arbitrary term, and if left up to certain people, can mean lots of non-hateful things being declared as hate speech because of someone’s ideology.
“If you think that some douchebag’s right to use his money to support creating a literal underclass out of queer people, without being called out on what a monstrous act it is, is more horrific and more of a threat to civil liberties than our safety and lives being threatened and disregarded, then I sincerely hope you do choke on a chicken bone of false equivalency.”
I don’t at all agree that people shouldn’t be allowed to call out the guy on his opinion. It is the attempts by certain big city mayors to literally ban the company from operating in their cities that constitutes the bullying. IMO, no company, no matter what their views, should be bullied in that sense. If people don’t like the company’s views, then don’t buy the product.
LikeLike
That’s called the Slippery Slope Fallacy, son, don’t get too comfortable with it.
And boo hoo hoo, the mayor’s telling them that they can’t open up shop there and use their city’s resources to promote inequality and hatred. I would do the same thing if I were mayor, it’s a matter of insuring the safety and well-being of the LGBT community in my city. If Chik-Fil-A had been donating to Stormfront, or the Ku Klux Klan, or the Creativity Movement, would you also be bellyaching about what an affront to freedom of speech it is? (Actually, don’t answer that, I know what it is, and I don’t need further confirmation that you’re a terrible person who doesn’t care if people with less power than you get hurt or killed)
Consider yourself fortunate that I took the time to explain why your position is so wrongheaded; if this were my blog, rather than Clarissa’s, I would have just commended you for being able to type so clearly with your thumb stuck up your bum.
LikeLike
“I would do the same thing if I were mayor, it’s a matter of insuring the safety and well-being of the LGBT community in my city.”
As someone who is very supportive and a member of the LGBTQ myself (a “queer” for lack of a better word), I just don’t see how allowing a Chick-Fil-A to open in a city hurts the LGBTQ people in the city.
“If Chik-Fil-A had been donating to Stormfront, or the Ku Klux Klan, or the Creativity Movement, would you also be bellyaching about what an affront to freedom of speech it is?”
Yes, because it creates a slippery slope.
“(Actually, don’t answer that, I know what it is, and I don’t need further confirmation that you’re a terrible person who doesn’t care if people with less power than you get hurt or killed)”
You know nothing about me, so please don’t make judgements just because you disagree with my opinion. Personally, I viscerally despise all the hatred and intolerance for LGBTQ people. But I also think that banning a business from opening somewhere because of the views held by the owner would set a bad precedent. Maybe I’m just ultra-libertarian in that sense.
LikeLike
“But I also think that banning a business from opening somewhere because of the views held by the owner would set a bad precedent.”
– From what I understand, it isn’t about the views, it’s about the way people were fired for all kinds of bigoted reasons.
LikeLike
By the way, anyone else think it’s funny that the fellow who is always squawking like a mentally unstable parrot about how the U.S needs to go abroad to force other countries to adapt the American way of doing things under the guise of freedom and civil liberties really doesn’t give a shit about the civil liberties of Americans who happen to be queer? Because I sure think it’s a laugh and a half.
LikeLike
Say what? Since when is advocating freedom the “American way of doing things?” If a country isn’t free, then it’s by its nature oppressive of others. Human freedom means people can live however they please. Countries that are not free mean that everyone cannot live how they please, they must adhere to the doctrine of the society or be persecuted.
I find it really amazing that you see advocating freedom for the peoples of non-free countries as somehow “forcing” something onto those countries. Tell that to all the LGBTQ and women who live in countries like Iran for example.
And I do not see how saying it’s a bad precedent to start outlawing Chick-Fil-A’s equates to being against the civil liberties of LGBTQ.
LikeLike
” If a country isn’t free, then it’s by its nature oppressive of others.”
– Of other countries?? So which other countries does Cuba oppress? Also, free from what, exactly? Are you aware that many people on this planet consider YOU to be the most “unfree” person in an extremely “unfree” country? Since it is a proven fact that your country oppresses others all over the place, should it be invaded?
“Countries that are not free mean that everyone cannot live how they please, they must adhere to the doctrine of the society or be persecuted.”
– Many people believe that this is exactly what happens in the US and they have tons of examples of this.
“I find it really amazing that you see advocating freedom for the peoples of non-free countries as somehow “forcing” something onto those countries.”
– Advocating and dropping bombs are different things.
LikeLike
“Of other countries?? So which other countries does Cuba oppress? Also, free from what, exactly? Are you aware that many people on this planet consider YOU to be the most “unfree” person in an extremely “unfree” country? Since it is a proven fact that your country oppresses others all over the place, should it be invaded?”
I’m not talking about countries that oppress other countries, I mean where the population of the country itself is oppressed (though generally such countries tend to oppress other countries). Look at how Cuba oppresses its own population. Cuba can’t oppress any other countries because it is too small and lacks any real economic or military strength (and if it tried to oppress the other countries in its region, the United States could easily stop it). One can also look to a country like Iran, where the regime there rigged the last election and crushed the rebellion that occurred. A lot of people don’t want it in power there. Or North Korea. Even China. And so forth. The people there are not free.
The only people who consider the United States to be “unfree” are uneducated poor peoples in Third World countries who get lied to by people eager to whip them into a frenzy, and certain ideologues. What they think doesn’t mean it’s correct. Otherwise, the United States, being a generally very free country, is a haven which enormous amounts of people seek to immigrate to. So are all of the other liberal democracies: Canada, the developed European nations, Australia, South Korea, etc…
How does the United States oppress others all over the place? The United States underwrites the security of the free world as it is. The U.S. for example just got asked back into the Phillippines by their government because of China’s constant bullying of that country. The U.S. invaded Iraq and instead of turning it into a colony and monopolizing the oil extraction, it gave Iraq its own government to try and govern itself.
As for people being oppressed within the United States, well to an extent, we did have an invasion there: the North invaded the South via the Civil War and slavery was ended. The South then tried various means to continue the racial oppression such as Jim Crow laws and other means, but these were eventually undone as well. The U.S. at the moment I think needs to make more progress on LGBTQ issues (such as marriage), but it is coming along. LGBTQ people may not be well accepted in certain areas in the South, but they are pretty fine in the likes of California, New York, Illinois, etc…the major metropolitan and developed areas of the country. Even in Texas, there’s Austin which is considered the San Francisco of that state, and Houston, Texas in 2009 elected its first openly gay mayor. And if a company like Chick-Fil-A discriminates against LGBTQs, that is illegal.
“- Many people believe that this is exactly what happens in the US and they have tons of examples of this.”
There are always some exceptions. One can look at any free nation and find such examples I think. But for the most part, the U.S. and the other Westernized countries are incredibly free. Remember, what “many people believe” is not the same as what is true.
“- Advocating and dropping bombs are different things.”
Bombs these days, if used, are precision and only will knock out certain weapons and infrastructure of the ruling regime. Civilians are not bombed as those are the people the goal is to free. Iraq’s major cities for example were not reduced to rubble or anything during the invasion. Sometimes accidents happen, such as the civilians that were hit during the bombings in Serbia to stop the genocide from occurring, but it was a genocide.
LikeLike
“The only people who consider the United States to be “unfree” are uneducated poor peoples in Third World countries who get lied to by people eager to whip them into a frenzy, and certain ideologues.”
– You are wrong. People simply have a different definition of freedom than you do. Plus they are not brainwashed by the same silly claptrap. They have their own silly claptrap, of course, but as long as they are not bombing you to promote it, it’s their right to believe it.
“What they think doesn’t mean it’s correct. ”
– And what you think doesn’t mean you are correct. Have you ever considered that possibility?
“Otherwise, the United States, being a generally very free country, is a haven which enormous amounts of people seek to immigrate to. So are all of the other liberal democracies: Canada, the developed European nations, Australia, South Korea, etc…”
– Yet Canada doesn’t skip all over the world trying to impose its values on anybody. Neither does Norway, which, by every single criterion, has a much higher standard of living than the US. And nobody in the world hates them like they hate the US. I suggest we follow the example of these rich and enlightened countries and concentrate on our own freedoms or lack thereof. This will make everybody holding a US passport feel safer in the world.
“Remember, what “many people believe” is not the same as what is true.”
– What people believe is true for them. Because people tend to be different and have different values and beliefs. You, however, seem to think that everybody who doesn’t hold the same beliefs as you must necessarily be wrong. Can you accept that people might want different things from the ones that you do simply because they are different? Can you accept that they can fuck up their lives as much as they want to if that’s what they feel like? Or do you support people like Mayor Bloomberg who want to make people happy according to his standards by brute force? In this discussion, you consistently play the role of an ultra-aggressive Bloomberg who says, “You will stop drinking those dangerous sodas or I will murder your family.” Are you not seeing that?
LikeLike
“- You are wrong. People simply have a different definition of freedom than you do. Plus they are not brainwashed by the same silly claptrap. They have their own silly claptrap, of course, but as long as they are not bombing you to promote it, it’s their right to believe it.”
Except that they don’t believe it. I highly doubt that LGBTQ people being slaughtered, or women stoned to death for showing some skin, or people of religions not accepted persecuted, believe in any such thing. The people doing all the slaughtering and the killing are the ones who believe it. That’s why countries like North Korea and the Soviet Union had to build barricades to prevent people from trying to escape.
“- And what you think doesn’t mean you are correct. Have you ever considered that possibility?”
Sure. But you seem to have this idea that if a large number of people in the world think something, that is must be true or hold some credibility. That’s not what you should go by.
“- Yet Canada doesn’t skip all over the world trying to impose its values on anybody. Neither does Norway, which, by every single criterion, has a much higher standard of living than the US.”
Canada doesn’t have to because it lives under the security umbrella provided by the United States. It benefits from the U.S. keeping the sea lanes open and global trade flowing. Norway has a lower standard of living then the United States, as it has a higher cost of living. It has a slightly higher per capita GDP, but a significantly higher cost of living which erodes that. It also is one of the world’s largest exporters of oil (25% of its GDP is from oil!) and again is a country that lives under the security umbrella and stability provided by the U.S.
If you try to measure standard of living by something like the UN Human Development Index, which is more arbitrary (as you have bureaucrats deciding what should constitute a high standard of living as opposed to per capita GDP, i.e. money, which means the people can decide for themselves, as whoever makes the most money will generally have the highest living standards), then Norway out-does the U.S., but as I said, that’s arbitrary.
It is also a lot easier for a small country like Norway that is relatively homogenous to have a larger social welfare state and maintain it well, especially when they have the oil revenues they do. Take away the oil revenues, crank up the size of Norway’s population by about 30 times, add in a whole slew of additional cultures, races, ethnicities, languages, religions, etc…and you end up with a country as complex to govern as the United States.
“And nobody in the world hates them like they hate the US. I suggest we follow the example of these rich and enlightened countries and concentrate on our own freedoms or lack thereof. This will make everybody holding a US passport feel safer in the world.”
Everybody is always going to hate the country that’s the strongest and the one that actually has to flex its muscles to protect all the other countries that are supposedly peaceful. If the U.S. really decided to withdraw from the world stage, the rest of the countries would be left at the mercy of the thugs of the world and would either have to ally together and essentially take over the role played by the United States, or see themselves be bullied mercillessly.
“- What people believe is true for them. Because people tend to be different and have different values and beliefs. You, however, seem to think that everybody who doesn’t hold the same beliefs as you must necessarily be wrong. Can you accept that people might want different things from the ones that you do simply because they are different? Can you accept that they can fuck up their lives as much as they want to if that’s what they feel like?”
Where on Earth are you getting the idea that I want to dictate to others? Freedom is what I am all about. Letting people live their lives as they want. B people living under dictatorships are not free. They can’t live their lives as they want. Free peoples who think those things about the United States can think what they want, that’s their business as they are free.
If I was advocating invading Canada or France or something, already free countries, to “convert” them to the “American way” of freedom, then YEAH, I’d agree with you, that’s bad. Who the hell am I to tell a free people like the Canadians or the French how to live their lives and run their country? But dictatorial countries where the people are oppressed, they aren’t free, they’re oppressed. They have no say in how their countries are run.
“Or do you support people like Mayor Bloomberg who want to make people happy according to his standards by brute force? In this discussion, you consistently play the role of an ultra-aggressive Bloomberg who says, “You will stop drinking those dangerous sodas or I will murder your family.” Are you not seeing that?”
I am not playing any Michael Bloomberg. Nowhere have I advocated dictating to people in any ways like that. Bloomberg is one of those egomaniacal types who likes to micromanage people’s lives. I have no interest in forcing anyone to live in any way. Freedom is not forcing anyone to live in any particular fashion, it is allowing people to live however they please, so long as they aren’t harming others. You seem to be confusing the people being oppressed in dictatorial countries with being a free people choosing to live that way, who I would want to dictate to. They aren’t. They are forced to live how they are told. What I would want to do is make them free so that they can live however they want.
LikeLike
“If the U.S. really decided to withdraw from the world stage, the rest of the countries would be left at the mercy of the thugs of the world ”
– I can absolutely guarantee to you that if you start traveling and begin to ask people you meet in other countries who is the world’s biggest thug, they will all give you the same answer. Can you guess what that answer is? 🙂 Or do you think you know better than all these people whose countries you never even visited who it is that’s truly victimizing them?
“Freedom is what I am all about. Letting people live their lives as they want.”
– What if they want to live under Khomeini, Stalin, Castro, etc.?
“But dictatorial countries where the people are oppressed, they aren’t free, they’re oppressed. They have no say in how their countries are run.”
– The people of Iran chased away the progressive Shah in a revolution and put in place an oppressive Ayatollah. I don’t understand this choice or approve of it but I’m lucid enough to realize that it isn’t my place to impose my understanding of freedom upon them. The people of Cuba choose to chase away the dictator Batista and put dictator Castro in his place. I don’t get that but, once again, who the hell am I to impose my understanding of happiness on them? The people of Russia chose to trample on their democracy and make Putin their dictator, who am I. . . and so on.
“I am not playing any Michael Bloomberg. Nowhere have I advocated dictating to people in any ways like that. Bloomberg is one of those egomaniacal types who likes to micromanage people’s lives. I have no interest in forcing anyone to live in any way. Freedom is not forcing anyone to live in any particular fashion, it is allowing people to live however they please, so long as they aren’t harming others.”
– Bloomberg supporters do believe you are harming others by drinking supersized sodas and feeding your children the way you prefer, or haven’t you noticed? 🙂 Religious fanatics feel directly harmed by gay people getting married.
“They are forced to live how they are told. What I would want to do is make them free so that they can live however they want.”
– That’s paternalistic and offensive. What makes you think people in other countries can’t make themselves free if that’s what they want to do?
LikeLike
“- I can absolutely guarantee to you that if you start traveling and begin to ask people you meet in other countries who is the world’s biggest thug, they will all give you the same answer. Can you guess what that answer is? Or do you think you know better than all these people whose countries you never even visited who it is that’s truly victimizing them?”
Two things:
1) I would ask them to give specifics about their argument and then debate
2) What makes you think you need to visit countries to know if they’re being victimized by the U.S. or not? I wasn’t around for the French Revolution either, but I can find out about what went down then. Many of the people in the countries themselves may have a limited understanding of what’s going on as their governments control their media.
“- What if they want to live under Khomeini, Stalin, Castro, etc.?”
For people who truly want to live under them, fine, but what about all the other people who do not want to live under them? Those guys wouldn’t need to be dictators as they are/were if everyone willingly wanted them to be in power. The problem is that people under them have no choice or say in the matter. The people should have choices. The problem for dictators is that no one wants to live under a dictatorship.
Imagine if I wanted to start a country where everyone has to live exactly as I say, or else, and that’s that. I am the supreme boss, everything belongs to me, and everyone else works to serve me. But people have a choice in the matter! Think anyone would want to live there? 😀
“- The people of Iran chased away the progressive Shah in a revolution and put in place an oppressive Ayatollah. I don’t understand this choice or approve of it but I’m lucid enough to realize that it isn’t my place to impose my understanding of freedom upon them.”
If the whole entire population does that, that’s one thing, but the problem is the issue of tyranny of the majority. Just because more then 50% of people want one guy in power doesn’t mean the part of the population that is less then 50% want that guy in power, and those people will now have their freedoms infringed upon if it’s a dictatorship. A lot of times dictators come to power by lying to the people and making the people think they are something they aren’t. For example, do you think the Chinese who supported Mao would have done so if they knew what he REALLY stood for? These are not liberal democracies, which have safeguards in place so that if the wolves outnumber the sheep, the wolves cannot oppress the sheep.
“The people of Cuba choose to chase away the dictator Batista and put dictator Castro in his place. I don’t get that but, once again, who the hell am I to impose my understanding of happiness on them? The people of Russia chose to trample on their democracy and make Putin their dictator, who am I. . . and so on.”
Because as said, tyranny of the majority versus the dissenting minority, and the dictators oftentimes lie, and the fact that these again are not liberal democracies.
“- Bloomberg supporters do believe you are harming others by drinking supersized sodas and feeding your children the way you prefer, or haven’t you noticed? Religious fanatics feel directly harmed by gay people getting married.”
Yeah, that can get to be a gray area, but it’s one where common sense must be employed. If I am doing something in my home whereby I pour toxic waste out my door and it flows down into your garden, then yes the government can regulate that. If I am eating a beef sandwich and someone claims I am “harming” them because beef comes from cows, which fart methane into the atmosphere and thus contribute to global warming, and therefore my beef sandwich should be outlawed, that is taking it too far.
“- That’s paternalistic and offensive. What makes you think people in other countries can’t make themselves free if that’s what they want to do?”
How is it paternalistic and offensive? Saying that a people cannot govern themselves is paternalistic and offensive, but that is not at all what I’m claiming. On the contrary, self-governance is a primary component of freedom! But people can’t just make themselves free in those countries. Resisting a tyrannical regime requires organization, and usually the first signs of organization mean the organizers get killed or tortured. That’s why those regimes maintain secret police forces and all of that. Like how when you mentioned a guy in the Soviet Union got jailed for seven years just for talking to tourists.
If the people do somehow manage to organize a resistance, then they have a real war on their hands as the dictator will bring out the army, and hence machine guns, artillery, battle tanks, attack helicopters, bombs, and all of that. That’s what they’ve been doing in Syria.
Look at South Vietnam when the U.S. stopped giving it financial support. The North went in and took over and killed around one million people. Those people had no ability to resist. Or Korea, when the North invaded the South. Again, the South was defenseless on its own. Oppressed peoples who lack education in particular are in trouble as all they know is that they hate the regime in power, but they don’t know how or what to replace it with even if they could. Hence you can end up with a revolution where another dictatorship replaces the original.
LikeLike
“I would ask them to give specifics about their argument and then debate”
– Why should anybody be interested in debating anything with a completely uninformed person?
“2) What makes you think you need to visit countries to know if they’re being victimized by the U.S. or not? I wasn’t around for the French Revolution either, but I can find out about what went down then. Many of the people in the countries themselves may have a limited understanding of what’s going on as their governments control their media.”
– Because when we talk about victimization, ONLY the victim’s opinion counts. Are you saying you didn’t know that?
” If I am doing something in my home whereby I pour toxic waste out my door and it flows down into your garden, then yes the government can regulate that.”
– So if people in Cuba do things that don’t spill over into your garden, you should just butt out? Thank you. I rest my case.
“Like how when you mentioned a guy in the Soviet Union got jailed for seven years just for talking to tourists.”
– And if the US invaded the USSR to save him and us from all that, we would all collectively curse you and fight you to your deaths. The Nazis were very surprised when in response to their “We are here to liberate you from the Soviets!”, Ukrainians killed them and set them on fire.
“If the people do somehow manage to organize a resistance, then they have a real war on their hands as the dictator will bring out the army, and hence machine guns, artillery, battle tanks, attack helicopters, bombs, and all of that. That’s what they’ve been doing in Syria.”
– Are saying you are sorry that during the US Civil War nobody invaded the country to make all better and establish peace?
LikeLike
“- Why should anybody be interested in debating anything with a completely uninformed person?”
Uninformed about what? BTW, I would not visit a country that has suffered oppression and expect to debate anyone there without first gaining a very in-depth knowledge about that country.
“- Because when we talk about victimization, ONLY the victim’s opinion counts. Are you saying you didn’t know that?”
If the victim is completely misinformed about who has been doing the victimizing, their opinion cannot be the only one that counts.
“- So if people in Cuba do things that don’t spill over into your garden, you should just butt out? Thank you. I rest my case.”
Completely different situation. “The Cubans” don’t get any say in what they do because they live under a dictatorship. If Cuba was a free country, THEN, yes, so long as they aren’t doing things that “spill over into my garden,” I butt out of their business.
“- And if the US invaded the USSR to save him and us from all that, we would all collectively curse you and fight you to your deaths. The Nazis were very surprised when in response to their “We are here to liberate you from the Soviets!”, Ukrainians killed them and set them on fire.”
I don’t believe that at all. That would depend on numerous factors. When the Nazis rolled into Russia, they were initially greeted as liberators. The Russians turned on them when they saw that they were WORSE then Stalin’s henchmen. If the Ukrainian people believed the United States was invading for purposes of conquering them, then sure they’d fight. And if they were being subjected to a brutal dictatorship that they never had been before, they would probably welcome being liberated from it. Later-generation Soviets were a different breed as they were born into that system. It was all they knew. And the Soviet government did their best to keep it that way. They didn’t want the Soviet citizens to see just how good the West really had it.
“- Are saying you are sorry that during the US Civil War nobody invaded the country to make all better and establish peace?”
Nope, I am saying that when the U.S. had slavery, it essentially “invaded itself” for lack of a better description, in that the non-slavery North invaded the pro-slavery South. Now had the entire country been pro-slavery, another country invading it to free up the slaves and establish a liberal democracy that actually adhered to the Constitution I would not have had a problem with.
LikeLike
“I don’t believe that at all.”
– Are you suggesting that I’m lying to you? 🙂 🙂
“That would depend on numerous factors.”
– No, it would not. 🙂 This is getting too funny.
“When the Nazis rolled into Russia, they were initially greeted as liberators.”
– This is a disgusting and horrifying lie. You should be very careful before insulting people this way.
“The Russians turned on them when they saw that they were WORSE then Stalin’s henchmen.”
– You are so clueless, it’s just funny. Remember, you are talking to me about my country. I have no idea where you are getting all this, but it’s completely ridiculous. My Ukrainian grandfather enlisted in the Soviet Army at the age of 17 on June 22, 1941. Right after he heard that the bombs were falling on Kiev. I’m sure you don’t know what happened on June 22, 1941, so I’ll tell you: it was the first day of the Great Patriotic War. Please think carefully before you try to shit on the memory of people who fought bravely for their country and saved the world from Nazism.
“If the Ukrainian people believed the United States was invading for purposes of conquering them, then sure they’d fight. And if they were being subjected to a brutal dictatorship that they never had been before, they would probably welcome being liberated from it.”
– Here is a real life Ukrainian 🙂 telling you that you have no clue what you are talking about. Yet you keep insisting. This is just bizarre.
“Later-generation Soviets were a different breed as they were born into that system. It was all they knew. And the Soviet government did their best to keep it that way. They didn’t want the Soviet citizens to see just how good the West really had it.”
– The extent of your ignorance is horrifying. Are you seriously trying to explain to me that you know better than I how things were in the country where I was born and lived until there was no more such country? You have no idea what you are even talking about. This is why I don’t believe your assertions that you’d gain “in-depth knowledge” before debating people. Here you are, rolling out these egregiously uninformed things in a discussion with me with a completely unjustified aplomb. If you want to know what we knew about the rest of the world in the 1970s and 1980s and where this information came from, then I’d be happy to share this information. Why not just ask before making weird statements?
LikeLike
“- Are you suggesting that I’m lying to you?”
Nope, just that I think you are wrong there.
“- No, it would not. This is getting too funny.”
Yes it would. People don’t just automatically fight another country’s military that rolls into their own country. It depends.
“- This is a disgusting and horrifying lie. You should be very careful before insulting people this way.”
It is not a lie. Millions of people had already starved to death as a result of the forced collectivization of farms in the Soviet countries by the time the Nazis invaded, while millions of others had been murdered, sent away to concentration camps, tortured, and so forth. The famine during the 1921s in the UUkraine was so bad that there was even cannibalization of children by parents going on. Another famine occured in 1932 in Ukraine. Many Soviets thus welcomed the Nazis as liberators as they didn’t know just who they really were. In fact, it’s a testament to how horrible the Nazis were that the Soviet people began to fight for a regime that they detested.
“- You are so clueless, it’s just funny. Remember, you are talking to me about my country. I have no idea where you are getting all this, but it’s completely ridiculous.”
No it isn’t, it’s history. Read up on the Nazi invasions of the Soviet Union.
“My Ukrainian grandfather enlisted in the Soviet Army at the age of 17 on June 22, 1941. Right after he heard that the bombs were falling on Kiev. I’m sure you don’t know what happened on June 22, 1941, so I’ll tell you: it was the first day of the Great Patriotic War. Please think carefully before you try to shit on the memory of people who fought bravely for their country and saved the world from Nazism.”
Where am I crapping on the memory of anyone? It’s a historical fact that the Nazis were welcomed by many of the Soviet peoples initially. Key word is initially. Which wouldn’t be surprising, considering the persecution they had been undergoing due to Stalin.
“- Here is a real life Ukrainian telling you that you have no clue what you are talking about. Yet you keep insisting. This is just bizarre.”
But one real-life Ukrainian is not representative of the entire Ukrainian population. Surely you realize that your opinion may not be the opinion of all of your countrymen. Also, I am not arguing about the Ukrainians of your generation, I’m talking about the ones of Stalin’s time, who were living under a regime that they despised outright. The ones of your generation were born into that system, many not knowing there was any alternative outside of it.
“- The extent of your ignorance is horrifying. Are you seriously trying to explain to me that you know better than I how things were in the country where I was born and lived until there was no more such country? You have no idea what you are even talking about. This is why I don’t believe your assertions that you’d gain “in-depth knowledge” before debating people. Here you are, rolling out these egregiously uninformed things in a discussion with me with a completely unjustified aplomb. If you want to know what we knew about the rest of the world in the 1970s and 1980s and where this information came from, then I’d be happy to share this information. Why not just ask before making weird statements?”
I know for a fact that certain Soviet citizens did not know what life was like outside the Soviet Union because portions of the Soviet leadership didn’t even know. For example, when Gorbachev visited the United Kingdom, he asked Margaret Thatcher, “How do you see to it that people get food?” When Boris Yeltsin visited a Houston supermarket in 1989, he was stunned. In his autobiography “Against the Grain,” he describes the experience as “shattering”:
“When I saw those shelves crammed with hundreds, thousands of cans, cartons, and goods of every possible sort, for the first time I felt quite frankly sick with despair for the Soviet people. That such a potentially super-rich country as ours has been brought to a state of such poverty! It is terrible to think of it.”
Accounts of Soviet students who visited America during the 1950s and 1960s are numerous about how stunned they were, many thinking that they were being
shown an idealized version of America that didn’t really exist.
So I would reason if even high-ranking Soviets didn’t know a whole lot about the outside, that a whole lot of ordinary Soviet citizens themselves didn’t know either. And part of that was because the Soviet government actively tried to keep the Soviet peoples from knowing about the outside world. When Soviet soldiers invaded Poland to “liberate” it, in addition to the shock from being pelted by the people who saw them as invaders, they were stunned at how much higher the standard of living was (which was why the people saw them as invaders). Many of those soldiers (most?) were re-assigned to serve near the Chinese border.
All that said, I would be very interested in knowing about what Soviets knew about the rest of the world in the 1970s and 1980s. Of course certain Soviets knew that Western living standards were better. For example, East Germans had known for years that West Germans had a higher standard of living.
LikeLike
““- Are you suggesting that I’m lying to you?”
Nope, just that I think you are wrong there.”
– And you base your thoughts on the basis of what kind of profound knowledge of my country, exactly?
“Yes it would. People don’t just automatically fight another country’s military that rolls into their own country. It depends.”
– Normal people absolutely do. My people absolutely would.
“Millions of people had already starved to death as a result of the forced collectivization of farms in the Soviet countries by the time the Nazis invaded, while millions of others had been murdered, sent away to concentration camps, tortured, and so forth. The famine during the 1921s in the UUkraine was so bad that there was even cannibalization of children by parents going on. Another famine occured in 1932 in Ukraine. Many Soviets thus welcomed the Nazis as liberators as they didn’t know just who they really were. In fact, it’s a testament to how horrible the Nazis were that the Soviet people began to fight for a regime that they detested.”
– Once again, I have to kindly ask you to spare me the recitation of your very limited knowledge. Kyle, you normally sound like an intelligent person. Do you really fail to realize that lecturing people on the history of their country makes you look ridiculous?
““- You are so clueless, it’s just funny. Remember, you are talking to me about my country. I have no idea where you are getting all this, but it’s completely ridiculous.”
No it isn’t, it’s history. Read up on the Nazi invasions of the Soviet Union.”
– Are you serious with this advice? Can you try to make a guess on how many years I spent studying the history of the GPW and talking to the people who fought in the war?
“It’s a historical fact that the Nazis were welcomed by many of the Soviet peoples initially. ”
– For the fifteenth time, the idiot who told you this, lied. We had a couple of traitors here or there and I won’t enumerate what was done to them by their own people in punishment because you wouldn’t be able to sleep after that.
“But one real-life Ukrainian is not representative of the entire Ukrainian population. ”
– You can’t even listen to one. And you are telling me that if I tomorrow bring fifty people to the blog who’ll all say the same thing that will change your rigid mind.
“Also, I am not arguing about the Ukrainians of your generation, I’m talking about the ones of Stalin’s time, who were living under a regime that they despised outright.”
– OK, how many have you spoken to? How many books written by them have you read? Want to guess how many I have spoken to and read?
“The ones of your generation were born into that system, many not knowing there was any alternative outside of it.”
– You seem to have poor reading skills. I already explained to you that you have no idea what my generation did or did not know. You probably don’t realize that this statement you made is also insulting. Can you hold a conversation with another human being without insulting them? Do you see how well I manage to talk to you without making you feel like I crapped on your entire family? You could learn to do that, too.
“I know for a fact that certain Soviet citizens did not know what life was like outside the Soviet Union because portions of the Soviet leadership didn’t even know. For example, when Gorbachev visited the United Kingdom, he asked Margaret Thatcher, “How do you see to it that people get food?” When Boris Yeltsin visited a Houston supermarket in 1989, he was stunned. In his autobiography “Against the Grain,” he describes the experience as “shattering”:”
– O God, I hate to break it to you, but you should not believe every word that politicians say. 🙂 🙂 You are such a naive person, seriously. 🙂 Gorbachev just tried to make a joke. Everybody in the USSR understood it. I guess the “genetically earnest Americans” don;t know what a sense of humor even is.
“Accounts of Soviet students who visited America during the 1950s and 1960s are numerous about how stunned they were, many thinking that they were being
shown an idealized version of America that didn’t really exist.”
– Whom did these students tell about how “stunned” they were? Seriously, I’d like to hear an answer. If you knew anything at all about the USSR, you’d know why your statement makes zero sense. Maybe you are suggesting they were interviewed by American newspapers? 🙂 🙂 Or maybe they published their accounts online. 🙂 🙂
Now a little joke that I hope you will now manage to understand in this context.
In 1998, two old party apparatchiks are talking.
“You know, comrade, it’s really tragic that everything that they told us about communism was a lie.”
“No, comrade, what’s really tragic is that everything they told us about capitalism was true.”
I’m sure you can analyze this and tell me what it means. 🙂 🙂
“So I would reason if even high-ranking Soviets didn’t know a whole lot about the outside, that a whole lot of ordinary Soviet citizens themselves didn’t know either”
– You see how you base a whole lot of assumptions on the simple fact that you failed to get Gorbachev’s joke?
” When Soviet soldiers invaded Poland to “liberate” it, in addition to the shock from being pelted by the people who saw them as invaders, they were stunned at how much higher the standard of living was”
– Once again, I have got to wonder where all these “stunned” experiences became known to you. 🙂 🙂
LikeLike
“When Boris Yeltsin visited a Houston supermarket in 1989, he was stunned. In his autobiography “Against the Grain,” he describes the experience as “shattering”:
“When I saw those shelves crammed with hundreds, thousands of cans, cartons, and goods of every possible sort, for the first time I felt quite frankly sick with despair for the Soviet people. That such a potentially super-rich country as ours has been brought to a state of such poverty! It is terrible to think of it.””
– If you don’t understand that a politician who is passionately hated within his own country for destroying the Soviet Union would say something like this to try to justify himself, then what else can I say?
Are you aware of how many people in the FSU think that the end of the USSR was a horrible tragedy even now, 20 years after they have seen all there is to see everywhere in the world? I think they are idiots but I also think they have the right to their idiocy.
LikeLike
“Of course certain Soviets knew that Western living standards were better. For example, East Germans had known for years that West Germans had a higher standard of living.”
– Higher standards of living mean different things to different people. Some folks might even think that owning your own housing, not owing a dime to anybody, having free healthcare and education implies a higher standard of living than shouldering a mountain of debt, being bogged down in a 30-year mortgage, and not being able to afford a dentist when you have a toothache.
LikeLike
“- And you base your thoughts on the basis of what kind of profound knowledge of my country, exactly?”
The fact that one person rarely represents the sentiments of a country with a population of roughly 46 million people.
“- Normal people absolutely do. My people absolutely would.”
If they saw them as invaders, sure. But what if they saw them as liberators? Again, it depends on the situation.
“- Once again, I have to kindly ask you to spare me the recitation of your very limited knowledge. Kyle, you normally sound like an intelligent person. Do you really fail to realize that lecturing people on the history of their country makes you look ridiculous?”
Not really, for two reasons:
1) There are plenty of people from other countries who could probably lecture the average American about the history of their own country 😀 I mean I’m not saying you don’t know the history of your own country, but just because someone is from a particular country doesn’t automatically mean they know the history of that country. It doesn’t mean someone from outside that country can’t know its history.
2) You say that it is not true that the Soviet peoples initially welcomed the Nazis. From what I have read of history however, that is not correct. It most certainly shouldn’t be surprising if they did, I mean they had been undergoing slaughter for decades at that point.
“- Are you serious with this advice? Can you try to make a guess on how many years I spent studying the history of the GPW and talking to the people who fought in the war?”
Very serious. Here is a book: http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Despair-Death-Ukraine-under/dp/0674013131
“- For the fifteenth time, the idiot who told you this, lied. We had a couple of traitors here or there and I won’t enumerate what was done to them by their own people in punishment because you wouldn’t be able to sleep after that.”
No one person told me this, it is something that has been pointed out in multiple books. And people INITIALLY welcoming the Nazis, as they couldn’t imagine that there were actually people worse then the regime that was starving and slaughtering them already, do not constitute traitors. Traitors would be those who, in the face of what the Nazis were doing, still sided with the Nazis (which some Soviets did).
“- You can’t even listen to one. And you are telling me that if I tomorrow bring fifty people to the blog who’ll all say the same thing that will change your rigid mind.”
No one person, or even fifty people, can claim that an entire country would just rise up and fight an invading force without having a reason to.
“- OK, how many have you spoken to? How many books written by them have you read? Want to guess how many I have spoken to and read?”
I haven’t spoken to any. I have just read different books. How many have you read? If you could name some of them, that would be very helpful as I could see better where I am going wrong. Also, why do you so resist the idea that a portion of the Soviets would have initially welcomed the Nazis? It’s not like Soviet life was great, then the Nazi oppressors roled in and were welcomed. They were welcomed at first by many because they thought the Nazis would free them from the regime in control.
“- You seem to have poor reading skills. I already explained to you that you have no idea what my generation did or did not know. You probably don’t realize that this statement you made is also insulting. Can you hold a conversation with another human being without insulting them? Do you see how well I manage to talk to you without making you feel like I crapped on your entire family? You could learn to do that, too.”
Not meaning to crap on anyone (seriously). And no offense, but actually you can come off as condescending at times, although I doubt you mean to. But you say that Soviets knew about the outside world. Sure, some did, but a lot of others did not, hence the many Soviet visitors who were stunned when they visited the West.
“- O God, I hate to break it to you, but you should not believe every word that politicians say. You are such a naive person, seriously. Gorbachev just tried to make a joke. Everybody in the USSR understood it. I guess the “genetically earnest Americans” don;t know what a sense of humor even is.”
If he was trying to make a joke, then it was a bad one, as he was coming from a system in which food production is centrally-planned, and in which the system managed to kill a lot of people through starvation as a result for awhile. So his asking about food would naturally be assumed by a Western person to be a literal question.
And what benefit would Yeltsin have gained by lying? He saw the Western supermarkets, and realized how backwards the Soviet system was, and that change was needed.
“- Whom did these students tell about how “stunned” they were? Seriously, I’d like to hear an answer. If you knew anything at all about the USSR, you’d know why your statement makes zero sense. Maybe you are suggesting they were interviewed by American newspapers? Or maybe they published their accounts online.”
The accounts of how stunned they were come from the Americans who were tasked with showing them around America.
Here is an article on it: http://whirledview.typepad.com/whirledview/cultural.html
Here is another article which features the quote by Yeltsin: http://bcm.bc.edu/issues/winter_2004/ll_ussr.html
“Now a little joke that I hope you will now manage to understand in this context.
In 1998, two old party apparatchiks are talking.
“You know, comrade, it’s really tragic that everything that they told us about communism was a lie.”
“No, comrade, what’s really tragic is that everything they told us about capitalism was true.”
I’m sure you can analyze this and tell me what it means.”
That market capitalism doesn’t mean a utopia? Market capitalism has all the facets of communism in terms of corruption, greed, etc…but out of the two, it is the version that functions the least badly.
“- You see how you base a whole lot of assumptions on the simple fact that you failed to get Gorbachev’s joke?”
If it was a joke, then it was bad, and it wasn’t just Gorbachev, I was also referring to Yeltsin, along with other members of the Soviet Union who visited the U.S.
“- Once again, I have got to wonder where all these “stunned” experiences became known to you.”
I may be remembering wrong, but I believe it was in this book that I read about that: http://www.amazon.com/Lenin-Stalin-Hitler-Catastrophe-Vintage/dp/140003213X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1344326002&sr=1-1&keywords=lenin+stalin+hitler
LikeLike
““- And you base your thoughts on the basis of what kind of profound knowledge of my country, exactly?”
The fact that one person rarely represents the sentiments of a country with a population of roughly 46 million people.”
– Try to concentrate on the question and answer it. I know you can do it.
“If they saw them as invaders, sure. But what if they saw them as liberators? Again, it depends on the situation.”
– I have already answered this many times. Look at human history and show me where foreign invaders are not hated when they invade a peaceful country.
“You say that it is not true that the Soviet peoples initially welcomed the Nazis. From what I have read of history however, that is not correct. ”
– I have also answered this three times. I don;t know what Aryan Brotherhood rubbish you’ve been reading but it’s a bunch of stupid lies.
“No one person told me this, it is something that has been pointed out in multiple books. And people INITIALLY welcoming the Nazis, as they couldn’t imagine that there were actually people worse then the regime that was starving and slaughtering them already, do not constitute traitors. Traitors would be those who, in the face of what the Nazis were doing, still sided with the Nazis (which some Soviets did).”
– You are like a broken record. This is a bunch of vicious and stupid lies. You are insulting me with this crap. I’m asking you to stop spreading these lies on my blog. Now stop, and reread the last 4 sentences. Now reread them again. Try to absorb the information.
“And no offense, but actually you can come off as condescending at times, although I doubt you mean to.”
– Once again, you show an amazing incapacity to understand people and read their texts. I absolutely mean to be extremely condescending. I have pointed it out on this blog dozens of times. This is completely irrelevant to the discussion, but you can stop doubting and live in certainty. You see how much better it would have been if you just asked?
“I’m sure you can analyze this and tell me what it means.”
That market capitalism doesn’t mean a utopia? Market capitalism has all the facets of communism in terms of corruption, greed, etc…but out of the two, it is the version that functions the least badly.”
– Jesus. You start sounding hopeless. Within the context of this discussion, the joke was meant to show that people had information about capitalism. Often, they didn’t want to believe it, though.
“If he was trying to make a joke, then it was a bad one, as he was coming from a system in which food production is centrally-planned, and in which the system managed to kill a lot of people through starvation as a result for awhile. So his asking about food would naturally be assumed by a Western person to be a literal question.”
– Don’t insult the intelligence of Western people. Most have a good sense of humor. You are just projecting your own incapacity to read and understand texts onto others.
To resume the discussion because it started to get boring and repetitive: Kyle, there is such a thing as “the culture of discussion.” You severely lack it. I’m not saying this because I want to offend you but out of a genuine desire to help. I have written a special post on the culture of discussion for you. Here it is: https://clarissasblog.com/2012/08/07/the-culture-of-discussion/
I’m confident that you can become better at this very soon. Good luck!!
LikeLike
“- If you don’t understand that a politician who is passionately hated within his own country for destroying the Soviet Union would say something like this to try to justify himself, then what else can I say?”
Yeltsin didn’t “destroy” the Soviet Union, the collapse of the Soviet system was due to numerous factors. One of the main drivers were the reforms from Gorbachev.
“Are you aware of how many people in the FSU think that the end of the USSR was a horrible tragedy even now, 20 years after they have seen all there is to see everywhere in the world? I think they are idiots but I also think they have the right to their idiocy.”
Yes. But that is partially the result of idiots from the West who told them that now that the Soviet system was gone, then overnight life in the former Soviet countries could become just like it is in the Western countries. This was monumental idiocy as you can’t just take a communist system, “end” it, and then overnight turn the whole thing into the equivalent of a modernized Western nation. Instead, not surpisingly, chaos ensued, and things actually got worse for many peoples in those countries.
During the Soviet times, even though things were bad, there was still a system and law and order. It was an inefficient system and not good law or order, but they were there. Without them, however, utter chaos ensued, which was even worse. So now many people look back to the “good old days” of the Soviet times, when their countries were respected as an international world superpower as opposed to being regarded as second-rate and even third-world countries as they are now.
“- Higher standards of living mean different things to different people. Some folks might even think that owning your own housing, not owing a dime to anybody, having free healthcare and education implies a higher standard of living than shouldering a mountain of debt, being bogged down in a 30-year mortgage, and not being able to afford a dentist when you have a toothache.”
Free healthcare doesn’t exist. You will either pay for it in the form of waiting times and taxes, or you can pay via the price system, or some combination of the two (which is best to ensure everyone has some base form of healthcare). The reason why healthcare in the United States costs what it does is because the system is not free-market. Far from it.
The reason why college education costs so much is because the U.S. government has been subsidizing it for many decades now, which has driven up the cost. Housing underwent a bubble due to bad policy and lax regulation. The idea that you can only get healthcare and education without extreme financial burden if the government pays for it all is not true. In an appropriate free-market system, both will be affordable, just as the free-market makes most other things affordable. The United States made both expensive due to bad policy.
LikeLike
“Yeltsin didn’t “destroy” the Soviet Union, the collapse of the Soviet system was due to numerous factors. One of the main drivers were the reforms from Gorbachev.”
– Your incapacity even to try to read the text that is directed at you is astounding. I’m explaining to you how many people in Russia see Yeltsin. Whether Kyle agrees with them or not, is of no interest to them. That’s how they see things.
” But that is partially the result of idiots from the West who told them that now that the Soviet system was gone, then overnight life in the former Soviet countries could become just like it is in the Western countries.”
– And again, you pontificate without any knowledge of the facts. You’ve got to stop doing this because you are getting boring. remember, I lived in the USSR when it collapsed. No Western idiots told us anything of the kind.
“During the Soviet times, even though things were bad, there was still a system and law and order. It was an inefficient system and not good law or order, but they were there. Without them, however, utter chaos ensued, which was even worse. So now many people look back to the “good old days” of the Soviet times, when their countries were respected as an international world superpower as opposed to being regarded as second-rate and even third-world countries as they are now.”
– This is a very childish and silly explanation that I have no interest in. Please, try to keep your ignorant outpourings to yourself and attempt to understand that you have demonstrated such utter ignorance about the Soviet Union that nobody here cares about your uninformed opinions.
“Free healthcare doesn’t exist. You will either pay for it in the form of waiting times and taxes, or you can pay via the price system, or some combination of the two (which is best to ensure everyone has some base form of healthcare). The reason why healthcare in the United States costs what it does is because the system is not free-market. Far from it.”
– I’ve never encountered a person who is as deaf to other people as you are. I;m trying to have a discussion with you, yet yu don’t even seem to read what I say. You just see a word and roll out some memorized bit that is vaguely related to that word. Kyle, you need to work on your culture of discussion. Try to read the text that is addressed to you and COMPREHEND IT before writing your response. Most of your comments sound like you are talking to yourself. Try to learn engaging in a dialogue.
LikeLike
“- Try to concentrate on the question and answer it. I know you can do it.”
I did. I’m not dismissing your response as untrue, I’m saying that just becasue you say this or that about Ukrainians with regards to resisting another military doesn’t necessarilly make it true because of how large the country is population-wise. I am “from” America, but I would never think I could speak this way or that way for all Americans for example.
“- I have already answered this many times. Look at human history and show me where foreign invaders are not hated when they invade a peaceful country.”
But that’s just it. Ukraine was not exactly a peaceful country. It was a country in which the people were being slaughtered and starved, first under Lenin, then Stalin. It would be perfectly natural for a people to fight if they saw an invading army there to kill them, and that is what the Soviet peoples did do with the Nazis, but INITIALLY many welcomed them (at least from what I have read) as they thought they were there to free them.
“- I have also answered this three times. I don;t know what Aryan Brotherhood rubbish you’ve been reading but it’s a bunch of stupid lies.”
I listed you some books and articles. Point is I am not making anything up. At most, it would mean the books are wrong. Also, I would appreciate if you could list some of the books you yourself have read on the subject so as to expand my knowledge base more.
And again, there’s nothing unusual about a people undergoing mass starvation and slaughter initially welcoming an invader because they think the invader is there to free them. You make it sound like I’m saying they all knew who the Nazis were and still welcomed them, which is not true.
“- You are like a broken record. This is a bunch of vicious and stupid lies. You are insulting me with this crap. I’m asking you to stop spreading these lies on my blog. Now stop, and reread the last 4 sentences. Now reread them again. Try to absorb the information.”
You may not realize it, but you yourself keep saying the same things as well, i.e. “They’re lies!” But that’s not really an answer. IMO, it would also be a rather stupid form of lie as it doesn’t change the fact that the Soviets started fighting the Nazis when they saw how terrible they were.
“- Jesus. You start sounding hopeless. Within the context of this discussion, the joke was meant to show that people had information about capitalism. Often, they didn’t want to believe it, though.”
Coolbeans.
“- Don’t insult the intelligence of Western people. Most have a good sense of humor. You are just projecting your own incapacity to read and understand texts onto others.”
Or just going by how many a Westerner would respond to a guy from a centrally-planned system asking how do they get food to people the way they do.
“To resume the discussion because it started to get boring and repetitive: Kyle, there is such a thing as “the culture of discussion.” You severely lack it. I’m not saying this because I want to offend you but out of a genuine desire to help. I have written a special post on the culture of discussion for you. Here it is: https://clarissasblog.com/2012/08/07/the-culture-of-discussion/
I’m confident that you can become better at this very soon. Good luck!!”
Okay.
“- Your incapacity even to try to read the text that is directed at you is astounding. I’m explaining to you how many people in Russia see Yeltsin. Whether Kyle agrees with them or not, is of no interest to them. That’s how they see things.”
I can see what you mean here, I was in a hurry when typin that and thought YOU were also saying Yeltsin destroyed the Soviet Union.
“- And again, you pontificate without any knowledge of the facts. You’ve got to stop doing this because you are getting boring. remember, I lived in the USSR when it collapsed. No Western idiots told us anything of the kind.”
Well maybe not the vast number of Soviet peoples, so I see your point there, but the Soviet government, they most definitely told them this. A book that talks about it is here: http://www.amazon.com/The-White-Mans-Burden-Efforts/dp/1594200378
“- This is a very childish and silly explanation that I have no interest in. Please, try to keep your ignorant outpourings to yourself and attempt to understand that you have demonstrated such utter ignorance about the Soviet Union that nobody here cares about your uninformed opinions.”
What is incorrect about what I’ve written?
“- I’ve never encountered a person who is as deaf to other people as you are. I;m trying to have a discussion with you, yet yu don’t even seem to read what I say. You just see a word and roll out some memorized bit that is vaguely related to that word. Kyle, you need to work on your culture of discussion. Try to read the text that is addressed to you and COMPREHEND IT before writing your response. Most of your comments sound like you are talking to yourself. Try to learn engaging in a dialogue.”
You mentioned about “free healthcare” which America doesn’t have right now, and how many people would consider that a feature of a higher standard of living. I was just pointing that there is no such thing.
LikeLike
Kyle, I wrote an entire post on the culture of discussion for you. Try to acquaint yourself with in and then look at your own comments critically in the light of what the post says, ok? Especially the point that repeating the same thing dozens of times in a slightly different way doesn’t constitute a new argument. No, actually all of the points would help you.
Good luck!
LikeLike
Yes, I agree on some of your points from your post applying to me. On the repetition part however, I think we have both repeated the same arguments there. I have made my argument about some Soviet peoples initially welcoming the Nazis and you have said they are lies. I then make the same argument to try to re-emphasize the point and you say they are lies. And repeat. If you can think of some off the top of your head, I would really appreciate some books that counter that view.
LikeLike
“If you can think of some off the top of your head, I would really appreciate some books that counter that view.”
– Respectable researchers don;t dedicate books to debating vicious lies by Nazi followers. I now address you to pp. 5 and 7 of the culture of discussion post. 🙂 🙂
LikeLike
Except it’s not a vicious lie. That’s the problem. A vicious lie would be to simplify it to saying that the Soviets welcomed the Nazis. If a lie, it becomes undone when pointed out that this was only done initially.
LikeLike
“Except it’s not a vicious lie. That’s the problem. A vicious lie would be to simplify it to saying that the Soviets welcomed the Nazis. If a lie, it becomes undone when pointed out that this was only done initially.”
– “No, it isn’t, no it isn’t! Mooooooommmyyyyyy, I said it isn’t and she says it is. Why is she mean, Mooooommmyyyyy?” 🙂
LikeLike
BTW, I pointed you to a book by a respectable researcher that makes just that claim. It is by Karel C. Berkhoff, associate professor at the Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies in Amsterdam. He is also a member of the American Association for Ukrainian Studies.
LikeLike
“BTW, I pointed you to a book by a respectable researcher that makes just that claim. It is by Karel C. Berkhoff, associate professor at the Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies in Amsterdam. He is also a member of the American Association for Ukrainian Studies.”
– Go stick the Nazi bastard up your ass. Have I made myself clear now? Since you don’t seem to understand normal language. YOU ARE INSULTING ME AND MY PEOPLE HERE, YOU WEIRDO.
LikeLike
I don’t see why you’d find that insulting for the reasons I stated. As for the sources, I am sure that if not true, there are some other sources that refute the claim because there would be some other historians that would be very adamant about pointing it out.
LikeLike
“I don’t see why you’d find that insulting for the reasons I stated.”
– Your lack of human compassion and empathy is your problem. You don’t need to “see” why people are insulted. You just nee to learn to hear when a person tells you five times in a row that what your said is insulting to them.
“there are some other sources that refute the claim because there would be some other historians that would be very adamant about pointing it out”
– Respectable researchers don’t dedicate books to refuting lies by Nazi followers.
LikeLike
I am sorry that what I have said offends you. I am not out to insult anyone. But your getting insulted doesn’t mean you are correct on the issue.
LikeLike
“I am sorry that what I have said offends you. I am not out to insult anyone.”
– Good, finally! I knew you were not hopeless! 🙂 Yay, I achieved breakthrough here.
“But your getting insulted doesn’t mean you are correct on the issue.”
– And two plus two make four, imagine that. 🙂 Also, now is August and tomorrow is Wednesday. 🙂 Why go and spoil a good comment with a platitude that just falls flat?
LikeLike
Im curious, if the company CEO broke no laws and the company itself adhere’s to all the by-laws then how is it legal to ban it from any city? That seems to me would be the start of a slippery slope.
LikeLike
Discriminatory hiring and firing practices do break the law.
LikeLike
Has it been proven that this was actually done?
LikeLike
“Has it been proven that this was actually done?
http://www.salon.com/2012/08/03/chick_fil_a_too_sinful_to_fry_chicken/
” But while seeking employees without sin, Chick-fil-A has come under fire from workers who allege it broke the law. Forbes reported that U.S. District Court records showed at least a dozen employment discrimination lawsuits against Chick-fil-A between 1988 and 2007.”
LikeLike
@Leah
Ok, there are allegations. Now have they been proven guilty in a court of law?
LikeLike
“Ok, there are allegations. Now have they been proven guilty in a court of law?”
– Neither Chick-Fil-A nor the employees have yet taken their cases to the courts, as far as I know. I hope they all do just that. This would be a far more appropriate and productive way of addressing these issues than a bunch of idiots stuffing their faces with junk.
LikeLike
Well then, until that happens the mayor who has banned the company from opening a restaurant is wrong.
LikeLike
What I find really hilarious in this entire Chick-Fil-A brouhaha is how poor as dirt idiots who can’t even afford a normal healthy meal identify with the ultra-rich owner of the chain who makes millions feeding them garbage and humiliating them in the workplace for the simple reason that they don’t have a choice and have to work for him for a pittance.
The rights of these poor idiots are being trampled upon all over the place. They are being robbed to ensure that this chain’s owner pays as little in taxes as possible. Yet, instead of protesting against that, they believe the silly sob story about a beleaguered millionaire.
Chick-Fil-A’s owner can hire an army of lawyers and defend his rights extremely successfully in court. Hugely rich people have remedies we can only dream about. Yet, these fools need to believe the lie about “my friend the rich guy is being persecuted by the bad, mean government and he needs my help in defending his rights.” You’ve got to be all kinds of stupid to organize protests defending the rights of millionaires instead of your own rights.
LikeLike
@Kyle have you ever been abroad? Do you speak any foreign languages?
LikeLike
That’s exactly what I wanted to ask Kyle. 🙂 Great minds. . . 🙂
LikeLike
Well Clarissa, I almost agree with you but I cant. Though I will say I prefer my nation to your adopted one. 😉
LikeLike
“Well Clarissa, I almost agree with you but I cant. Though I will say I prefer my nation to your adopted one.”
– Which one is the greatest in your opinion, then? 🙂
LikeLike
I dont think there is a greatest.
LikeLike
“I dont think there is a greatest.”
– I hope we can at least agree that there is the greatest blogger of all times and we all know who she is. 🙂 🙂
LikeLike
I have been to a few other countries, Canada and France (and Canada one could maybe argue doesn’t really count), but haven’t had much chance to travel. I am planning to learn some additional languages, but at the moment, no I am not multilingual.
LikeLike
” I am planning to learn some additional languages, but at the moment, no I am not multilingual.”
– That’s a good project. You’ve got to remember, though, that it is impossible to acquire fluency in a language until you open your mind to the very different way of being practiced by people who speak that language. You have to become one of them somewhat. From your comments, I anticipate that you might have some trouble with that. It’s OK, it happens to everybody. I’m here to give advice on how to break through the psychological barrier when learning a language.
Maybe I should even write a post about it.
LikeLike
Yes, I have read that. Don’t misunderstand my comments to mean I disapprove of other cultures, far from it! I disapprove of dictators preventing people from being free is all.
LikeLike
@Kyle and other Americans
You might find this a little illuminating. 🙂
LikeLike
Well, we all know that Canada is the greatest country in the world, so what are we even arguing about? 🙂
LikeLike
He makes some decent points but he also makes some outright idiotic ones I think. America “used to be” the greatest country in the world? So back when Jim Crow existed, women didn’t have equal rights, industry could pollute way above and beyond what it can today, and so forth, the country was the greatest? Plus he makes it sound like the whole “exploration of the universe” was done for the sake of greatness. That’s a crock. The space program was solely because the Soviet Union launched Sputnik and thus was about making sure the U.S. maintained a technological edge over the Soviets. That had ramifications for the entire Cold War because nations had to decide whether they were going to ally themselves with the Soviets or the United States. It most certainly was not about space exploration for the sake of space exploration. Sure, for the scientists and engineers involved, it was, but once the Moon was reached, the funding was completely scaled back.
The life expectancy statistic is inaccurate, the reality is actually the U.S. ranks very highly in life expectancy. What skews the statistic is the number of homicides and car accidents, but when those are removed, the U.S. ranks very high in life expectancy. He also is over-simplifying the issue of median household income. He’s wrong in exports, as the U.S. only follows the European Union, which is not a country, and China (so really the U.S. is number two on that). And he’s horrendously overly-simplistic in his list of three things the U.S. “leads” in. In terms of literal things the U.S. really is a leader in, it leads the world in the following:
Manufacturing output (China is 19.8% while the U.S. 19.4%, but the U.S. does it with about 11 million workers whereas the Chinese use 100 million).
Number of elite educational institutions
Number of academic papers published
Research and development output
Large-scale economic freedom
In terms of his overall point of, “What exactly makes the U.S. the so-called ‘Greatest Nation?'” well I agree there, that is something overdone.
LikeLike
“America “used to be” the greatest country in the world? So back when Jim Crow existed, women didn’t have equal rights, industry could pollute way above and beyond what it can today, and so forth, the country was the greatest? ”
– Ah, finally, Kyle and I agree on something.
“Plus he makes it sound like the whole “exploration of the universe” was done for the sake of greatness. That’s a crock. The space program was solely because the Soviet Union launched Sputnik and thus was about making sure the U.S. maintained a technological edge over the Soviets. . . It most certainly was not about space exploration for the sake of space exploration.”
– And again I agree with Kyle. What is happening here?
“In terms of literal things the U.S. really is a leader in, it leads the world in the following . . . Number of elite educational institutions Number of academic papers published Research and development output”
– All true. I guess if you dig long enough, even Kyle and I can agree on stuff, eh? 🙂
LikeLike
@Kyle, how would you define free? Did Canada and France seem unfree to you? How do you feel about the Patriot and NDAA, which have massively curtailed the meaning of “freedom” for the US? How do you feel about Guantánamo, extraordinary renditions, the prison industrial complex, the legalization of torture, and the CIA “black sites” (prisons) around the world, paid for in part by taxpayers’ money and in part, apparently, by revenue from the drug trade?
LikeLike
Free in terms of social freedom to me means you can live however the hell you want so long as you aren’t harming anyone else. In terms of economic freedom, it means you are free to start and grow a business without being regulated and taxed into oblivion. From what I understand, Canada is very free in both social and economic freedom. In terms of economic freedom, France is a bit quasi-socialist (it is rather difficult to start and grow a business there), but otherwise they are a very socially-free nation.
The Patriot Act, as I’ve said before, had some flaws, but it has been revised, some parts removed, other parts changed, some parts continued. It hasn’t turned America into any police state. In terms of the parts of it that legitimately infringed on personal freedoms, I agree that those should be removed. The NDAA I am not very favorable to at all.
Gitmo is an imperfect solution to an intractable problem. I am sure if it could be closed, they would have closed it by now. Remember when Obama became president, he said he’d close it by the end of the year, and yet even with a Democratically-controlled House and Senate, it is still open. I am certain if he could close it, he would have. Extraordinary rendition I am not sure about and the prison-industrial complex I tend to be against. Torture I view like bombing, you only use it if you absolutely must. In the case of waterboarding, if considered as torture, it was used on the three terrorists who had masterminded 9/11 to get the information to prevent any further 9/11s from occurring. I am not in favor of black sites.
LikeLike
I meant, *Patriot Act
LikeLike
…examples: freedom of corporations to buy elections … freedom of individuals to buy unlimited amounts of ammunition … freedom as understood by some consumers, to choose between a large number of brands … freedom as in Zapata’s cry tierra y libertad … ?
(Side note: something I wish more Americans realized is what it feels like to be a non white American and have the eye of the police on you all the time. Persons of color have to watch out in the same ways one has to watch out in dictatorships.)
LikeLike
Random, anyone – what else besides what W. Clark has said is known about the alleged 2001 plan to take over 7 countries in 5 years, and how much of this plan is still in place or vigente, is this known? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0RTeMCGL8w
That is of course a good question for the Iran thread but my rhetorical point here is: if it is or was real, I truly doubt that the reason for it is/was the happiness of the citizenry in the 7 countries (although that will of course be the reason given the public).
LikeLike
If true, I’d think it would be for freeing the countries, but it would be delusional because no one in their right mind should think you can just invade seven countries in five years and free them all up. I doubt it would be for purposes of colonialization as the American people would never stand for any of that.
LikeLike
@Kyle
You should give this a read.
LikeLike
“I doubt it would be for purposes of colonization as the American people would never stand for any of that.”
?
They have supported colonialist and imperialist wars again and again, and believed it when told that these were actually good for those against whom said wars were made.
LikeLike
I can predict that in response you will receive the sentence “I doubt it would be for purposes of colonization as the American people would never stand for any of that” repeated over 6 times with slight variations. 🙂
We can start a small betting parlor here. 🙂
LikeLike
So it seems! 😉
LikeLike
“They have supported colonialist and imperialist wars again and again, and believed it when told that these were actually good for those against whom said wars were made.”
Which ones? And how were they colonialist or imperialist? Because I don’t know of the United States establishing any colonies anywhere in the world. The U.S. did, for a short while, get into some imperialist ways during the 19th century, but that was pretty much it. Throughout the 20th century, pretty much every single war the United States had influence in, from direct involvement to just supporting, was to counter the literal imperialist ambitions of the Soviet empire.
LikeLike
“Which ones? And how were they colonialist or imperialist? Because I don’t know of the United States establishing any colonies anywhere in the world. The U.S. did, for a short while, get into some imperialist ways during the 19th century, but that was pretty much it. Throughout the 20th century, pretty much every single war the United States had influence in, from direct involvement to just supporting, was to counter the literal imperialist ambitions of the Soviet empire.”
– I win the bet!!! He did respond with repeating his previous statement in a slightly different form.
The only problem is that nobody believed that Kyle wouldn’t do it and bet against me. 🙂 🙂
LikeLike
Read the book Kyle, it might enlighten you a little bit. 😉
LikeLike
I second Titfortat’s suggestion. 🙂
LikeLike
“- I win the bet!!! He did respond with repeating his previous statement in a slightly different form.”
Nope, I responded differently. I never said that such colonization didn’t exist, or that the American people wouldn’t support it, I said that I didn’t know of where any such colonies exist.
If you guys are going to make arguments about America “colonizing” places, you need to give some specific examples.
LikeLike
“If you guys are going to make arguments about America “colonizing” places, you need to give some specific examples.”
– These examples have been given dozens of times in discussions with you. But, unfortunately, you don’t hear anybody but yourself.
How is your personal life going? I have got to wonder at this point. 🙂
LikeLike
Personal life is just fine 😀
The “examples” that have been given dozens of times in other discussions (which I have read very well and always make sure to respond to each point) either did not constitute “colonizing,” or not in the way that is being implied (i.e. imperialism). For example, the Soviets set up colonies by funding communist dictatorships around the world. The U.S. also, to counter this, funded anti-communist dictators. But that’s a case of going with the lesser evil, in order to resist a greater evil (i.e. the Soviets) then with trying to engage in literal imperialism. One of the great historical anamolies of the United States was that it was in a perfect position to create a real empire after WWII as it was the only nation unscathed, and instead it not only helped re-build Western Europe, but established troops there to protect it from the Soviets.
LikeLike
“Personal life is just fine ”
– You are lying.
LikeLike
Meant great historical anamolies about the United States.
LikeLike
“You are lying.”
Not at all. A disagreement in point-of-view does not mean someone’s life is out of order.
LikeLike
Nobody is going to tolerate a person with such a scary incapacity to engage in a dialogue unless you pay them very big amounts of money. But you don’t sound rich. As a result, you are destined to see people run away from you and wonder why all your life.
LikeLike
My capacity to engage in dialogue is just fine. You just disagree with me is the issue. I think maybe one problem is that I am as strongly opinionated as you on certain things.
LikeLike
“My capacity to engage in dialogue is just fine.”
– I have dedicated an entire post to this issue. I know you like to repeat yourself, but I don’t.
“I think maybe one problem is that I am as strongly opinionated as you on certain things.”
– This has nothing to do with being “opinionated on things” whatever that means. I have never lectured you on your lived experience based on some badly digested internet reviews of some psycho’s outpourings. You had an opportunity here to learn about how people from another culture perceive their reality and what that reality was. You missed that opportunity because it’s more important to you to regurgitate the same boring sentence that you read somewhere and that stuck in your mind. This makes you very limited intellectually.
You don’t get to “have an opinion” on the USSR, buddy. You have demonstrated incredible ignorance about it and a complete incapacity to learn. I suggest that you abstain from all further discussions on the subject.
LikeLike
“- This has nothing to do with being “opinionated on things” whatever that means.”
It means you have very strongly-held views about things.
“I have never lectured you on your lived experience based on some badly digested internet reviews of some psycho’s outpourings.”
And I haven’t lectured you on your own life in the Soviet Union (to the contrary, I have asked you questions about it!).
“You had an opportunity here to learn about how people from another culture perceive their reality and what that reality was. You missed that opportunity because it’s more important to you to regurgitate the same boring sentence that you read somewhere and that stuck in your mind. This makes you very limited intellectually.”
I take in how people from other cultures perceive their reality. That doesn’t make it correct. As for WWII-era Soviet Union, a person from that region of the world is no more qualified really to talk about that issue then a person of America can discuss WWII-era America, unless they are elderly people who were literally alive at the time.
“You don’t get to “have an opinion” on the USSR, buddy. You have demonstrated incredible ignorance about it and a complete incapacity to learn. I suggest that you abstain from all further discussions on the subject.”
Considering the threat posed by the USSR for so many years and how many people it killed, not to mention how many Americans it got killed for resisting its imperialist efforts around the world, I very much can have an opinion on it. Regarding learning, for my points, you have just called them lies or said I don’t know what I am talking about. Well fine, but you need to back up your assertions. You shouldn’t expect someone to just read the phrase, “They’re lies,” and reason, “Clarissa says they’re lies, so therefore it must be so.”
LikeLike
¨Where did you miss the point I made that $7-$10 per meal is a lot of fucking money compared to buying food at the grocery store. And I need more evidence that the fact that no one could leave a neighborhood in 1970 means they are disinclined to do so in 2012. And so on.
“Look. A lot of bad eating habits are just that: habits. And also a lot of people were raised on crap food so those are their tastes. But saying that “fast food helps poor people because it’s cheaper” is bullshit. It might be cheaper in the short run time wise — yes going to the grocery store is tiresome, I do find it so, and just buying a meal for the kids that’s already made so they’ll shut up at least gets you some quiet moments — but in the long run it’s costlier to your pocketbook and to your healthy. I have not just pulled these speculations out of my ass, I lived them.”
You sound upset. I am sorry! Please realize that I was agreeing with almost everything you said. And I never said what you ascribe to me.
Neighborhoods, bus fare, lack of familiarity, long time discomfort, family stories, and also gaps in experience in town if you have spent time in jail and things like that. Look at all the self segregation that still goes on (there are a lot of neighborhoods I would definitely not go as a Black person, for instance; I *know* people would call the police). And because of the prison work I do I have a lot of contact with daily lives of the quite-quite poor and I see these reactions. I wouldn’t call them lazy/uneducated … look back at V’s comment, which I think is quite a fair one.
LikeLike
@Kyle, I went to elementary school in the sixties, that is, during the Cold War. We had air raid drills, for when the USSR dropped the Bomb on us, and so on. The history and social science books, written for elementary school children, were Cold War propaganda. You are trotting out that level of discourse and a large part of that worldview. It’s boring because one has sat through those speeches before.
LikeLike
I am not familiar with what elementary school history and social science books mentioned during the Cold War. If you mean they presented some Apple pie, sugary-sweet history of America, I’d agree they were propaganda. But that doesn’t change the fact of the evils of the Soviet Union nor does it back up the (what are also old and boring) claims about America “colonizing” the world.
LikeLike