A student writes in an online discussion: “I, for one, feel very happy that the barbarians destroyed the Roman Empire because it was a total welfare state!”
I never know what to respond to students who abhor the welfare state while attending a state university and receiving federal grants.
Clarissa's Blog 
Somewhere I read that somewhere around half of Americans who have been the beneficiaries of a government program did not believe that had used a government social program.
In addition, it is drastic over-simplification to say that the Roman Empire “was destroyed”. Notably, the Eastern Roman Empire continued on just fine for another millennium.
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Here’s the paper you’re thinking of (link goes to a short popular-media digest of the study, with a table listing a bunch of different government programs — like Pell grants, Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, government-sponsored student loans, unemployment insurance, veterans’ programs, and various tax credits — alongside the proportion of people using that program who don’t believe they’ve ever used a government program.
There’s something of a pattern, in that some programs have higher proportions of people who deny they are receiving government aid, and those programs tend to be the ones most used by middle- and upper-class people. (The programs with more than 50% of people saying they don’t use government programs are mostly tax breaks for things like mortgage interest payments, child and dependent care, college costs and earned income, along with student loans and something called a 529 or Coverdell, both of which also seem to be college financing programs.)
Conversely, the programs that mostly help poor people, like food stamps, subsidized housing, Medicaid and welfare, have the lowest numbers of people denying they receive state aid! (Although this is still a surprisingly high number, between 25 and 30 percent for those programs.)
I conclude that class prejudice, and people’s investment in an upwardly mobile, middle-class identity, is involved.
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Yes, that’s the one I was thinking of.
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“I conclude that class prejudice, and people’s investment in an upwardly mobile, middle-class identity, is involved.”
– I’m not sure I can agree. Among my students, almost nobody has even seen middle-class from a distance, let alone managed to belong to it. Yet the hatred of the big bad government that keeps intervening with its federal education grants and all kinds of aid is enormous. When I give an assignment in Spanish 202 to make up sentences with the word “government”, I almost never get anything but “Government is bad” and “I hate government.” This is precisely the group of population that steadily votes Republican against every single economic interest of their own.
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There is a big difference between a tax break and even college grants, vs. food stamps and traditional “cash welfare” (I believe TANF is the current cash welfare program after clinton changed in in 1996 with welfare reform).
The simple fact remains is that there are a large number (but still VERY small % of the country) who are truly lazy and abuse the system and they generate more negative feelings toward govt. programs than all the benefits everyone else sees.
It probably comes as no shock that I favor a more conservative, lighter-social program agenda. However, where I think liberals/progressives mess up is they don’t really admit that there will be people who abuse the program, but the majority (70%, 90%? I’m not sure) benefit and make society better as a consequence. Liberals don’t want to say…”well sure of the 40 million people on food stamps 5 – 10 million are likely gaming the system. Would you rather have the other 30-35 million who are using the system as a stop gap to better their lives be denied benefits?”
That would be an honest statement, and PERHAPS I would maybe agree with it.. but as soon as liberals say these programs are for hard-working families who are donwn on their luck, and fail to mention that of course some are taking advantage of it, dissenters only need a few examples to trash the whole concept of the prgorm. I really think there is a lot of insight in what I am saying.. but i am curious from a more progressive/liberal viewpoint if you think my explanation both explins why so many “hate welfare”.. and if bein more honest about those who abuse the system would increase tolerance/support for the progrmas.
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“The simple fact remains is that there are a large number (but still VERY small % of the country) who are truly lazy and abuse the system and they generate more negative feelings toward govt. programs than all the benefits everyone else sees.”
– I know! Like all those billionaires we keep bailing out with our hard-earned money.
“but as soon as liberals say these programs are for hard-working families who are donwn on their luck, and fail to mention that of course some are taking advantage of it, dissenters only need a few examples to trash the whole concept of the prgorm.”
– Yes, like the hard-working Blankfein family that has already bilked the taxpayers to the tune of a few billion. We are constantly being told that they are simply down on their luck, poor mites. Can’t buy yet another yacht and suffer hugely.
“and if bein more honest about those who abuse the system would increase tolerance/support for the progrmas.”
– Then let’s finally be honest about the ultra progressive president Bush giving billions of taxpayers’ money to his hard-working but unlucky billionaire buddies in winter of 2007-8.
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Clarissa… I am nothing if not an honest conservative. I have on multiple occasions ridiculed the bankers and the bailouts. So now that we agree on that… can’t you comment on my actual point?
I think I made a very reasonable statement.. i am granting that only a minority (perhaps 10-30%) really abuse the statement.. and I am trying to offer the best explanation on why people focus on that minority… hope I can get your opinion on my actual point now that you got your daily dose of snark in 🙂
still love you clarissa!
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Oh, that’s so nice! I hope you never leave my blog, Matt, because you always manage to brighten up my day. 🙂
You have to realize, though, that whenever I can say anything nasty about Blankfein and Co, I will do so.
As for the subject of food stamp cheaters, I will write a separate post on it.
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It’s also an oversimplification to say that it was destroyed *by barbarians.*
The barbarians, for the most part, were just exploiting the internal weaknesses of the empire which had been growing for centuries.
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This is a course on Hispanic Civilization that has to cover the development of the entire Spanish-speaking world from the Roman Empire until today in one semester. Obviously, things have to be simplified.
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I don’t know if I could really call the Roman client system “welfare” per se. Is that what this fellow is referring to?
The closest thing that the Romans had to welfare was probably charity administered by the early Christians (the church having become, for all intents and purposes a part of the state by the end of the empire).
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I have absolutely no idea where this even came from.
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I googled “Roman Empire Welfare State” just now: all I could find were a bunch of articles from right wing think tanks trying to blame every misfortune in the history of the world on “excessive government.”
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Unfortunately, for many of my students, this is their regular (and only) intellectual fare. 😦
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The student was probably thinking of bread and circuses for the masses to keep them pacified. That was before television.
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OT but of interest and relevant, in its way, since it is about hypocrisy: http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/13126-focus-the-wests-hypocrisy-over-pussy-riot-is-breathtaking-
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Finally, an intelligent article on the subject!! Thank you for the link!
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Here is Twisty on it: http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2012/08/23/spinster-aunt-is-informed-that-pussy-riots-carpet-doesnt-match-drapes/
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I liked Twisty’s article, which is rare with me. 🙂
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It is a pretty conservative piece and not always consistent. Twisty’s piece is *much* more interesting as a critique.
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I find it amusing that said student reckons Rome and the Roman Empire had (by any modern standards) a ‘Welfare State’
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This reminds me of a student who said that a black character from a 1554 Spanish novel was an “African-American.” 🙂
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Everyone knows that Rome was an empire that was trashed because it didn’t allow women access to alcohol. Along came the barbarians who gave them alcohol. Things have been alright ever since.
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Except in the US where nobody got any alcohol for a while. 🙂
You see, on rare occasions even I understand humor. 🙂
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Alcohol was subsequently denied to Americans by liberals who “hate America”.
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Probably there is a pastor who says Rome was a welfare state. It arrested Jesus, so it is bad, so it must be a welfare state, because those are bad.
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I’m tired of this argument.
There is nothing hypocritical about benefiting from a policy you oppose. In fact, being able to look beyond your narrow self-interests to see a policies wider effects is an important skill.
For example, I got a $1000 check in the mail as part of Obama’s stimulus. I don’t think I the government should have given me that check. They should have kept that money to pay the bills. But did I cash that check? Of course! I’m not going to turn down $1000 just to make a political point. I guess I’m selfish like that. But even if I’m selfish, I’m still smart enough to know the difference between cashing a the stimulus check because I support the stimulus, and cashing the check because I wanted the $1000.
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In my culture, we call your position “Wanting to sit with one ass on two chairs.” I have no respect for people who don’t have the courage of their convictions. Blabbing is easy. Doing something to prove you are serious about your beliefs is harder.
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here is a good one:
friend of mine a conservative republic hates anything to do with welfare and the recipients has a special needs grandchild. He sees no problem of milking any financial aid he can get his hands on even so money or the lack of his not one of his problems.
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I prefer the Welfare State to the Conser-fascist State. Freedom is not only a fiscal concept!
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“Freedom is not only a fiscal concept!”
– GOOD point!!
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