I didn’t have time to blog about this discussion when it first happened but I figure that it’s better to do it late than never.
A debate – an actual long and intense debate – raged at Feministe website aimed at answering the question “Is it rape if you don’t mean for it to be rape?”
I was quite surprised that anybody still needed to argue about this issue, especially on a feminist website. I thought we all knew that the concept of statutory rape arose precisely in response to the oft-repeated claims by pedophiles that a child consented to a sex act of his or her own free will. Try telling a pedophile that s/he rapes children and see the outrage of an offended innocence.
And then there is the concept of spousal rape. Which also came to existence as a result of people believing that sexual violence within a marriage does not constitute rape and is generally not a big deal. I personally know two men who raped their wives. One did it once and the other one did it repeatedly over the course of twenty years. Do you think either of them intended to commit rape or sees himself as a rapist? Of course, not. I told one of them he was a rapist to his face and he had this look of complete confusion on his face. I think the guy’s shock at being called a rapist was completely genuine. He really had no idea that there was anything even remotely wrong about what he did to his wife. He actually hates rapists passionately and thinks they should all be castrated.
And, of course, there are all these situation where a victim of rape is coerced, threatened, and badgered into having sex. Do you think perpetrators of those rapes actually see themselves as rapists? Obviously not. They are convinced they are simply being persuasive and helping their victims to make up their minds.
All of these varieties of rape have been discussed by feminists ad nauseam. The idea that you need to seek enthusiastic consent before engaging in sex arose precisely as a response to situations where rapists sincerely and passionately argued that they had no idea they were raping anybody. This is why I was stunned when I read Feministe’s answer to the question “Is it rape if you don’t mean for it to be rape?”:
Obviously the word “rape” has a lot of baggage and by definition requires a level of guilty-mindedness (“mens rea” or intention to harm or knowledge that you might be causing harm or whatever you want to call it).
We can now let all of the child rapists, date rapists, spousal rapists, etc. get out of jails and go rape some more. They will all claim that they had no idea they were causing harm. Many will claim they were doing the exact opposite and trying to give pleasure to the victim. Many will be completely sincere.
The human psyche has many mechanisms of protecting itself from harm. One of the most harmful things for the psyche is a belief that one is bad. A bad, horrible, nasty human being. In order to remain mentally healthy, we need to believe in our essential goodness. The myth of one’s essential goodness is one of the organizing principles of our existence. This is why when we do anything that is likely to shatter this belief, our subconscious comes to the rescue and creates a series of convenient fictions aimed at convincing us that, deep inside, we are good people who are not to blame for what happened.
According to numerous accounts of people who knew him in person, even Stalin was completely convinced that he was a good, kind human being who never did any harm to anybody.
It’s been a while since this debate on Feministe took place but I’m still completely stunned that people discuss rape as if we were still living in the 1950s. I’m especially shocked that these people call themselves feminists.
Clarissa's Blog 
I’m still half convinced that debate was more “but….but….she’s a woman!” than, “is it really rape?”.
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Ok, but none of the examples you mention cover the situation described in the post. What is your opinion of that story?
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My point is precisely that we cannot have an opinion until we hear what the victim has to say. Because perpetrators are known for making self-serving statements.
But let’s assume things happened exactly as they are described. The chances of that are nil because the story is very obviously filled with lies. But let’s assume the victim tells us the exact same story.
What happened – as described – is very obviously an instance of spousal rape. Normal people don’t do such things to each other. The only reason I can fall asleep by my husband’s side is because I know he will never violate me in this way. Normal people seek enthusiastic consent instead of interpreting hand-waving gestures in the dark.
That woman is dangerous. And her string of lame excuses is disgusting.
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I’m especially shocked that these people call themselves feminists.(Clarissa)
I wouldnt be too shocked, afterall, many of these individuals are pretty mainstream feminists. Nor would I be too shocked what the reaction would have been had it been a male writing in that story.
Ooohhh, the mental contortions abound. 😦
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“Nor would I be too shocked what the reaction would have been had it been a male writing in that story.”
– Oh yes. I don’t even want to imagine that. When will these people liberate themselves form this “whatever happens a woman is always a victim” mindset? When? When???
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When? When? I dont think its happening in my lifetime. I think you might like this song Clarissa.
I turn on the tube and what do I see
A whole lotta people cryin’ “Don’t blame me”
They point their crooked little fingers at everybody else
Spend all their time feelin’ sorry for themselves
Victim of this, victim of that
Your momma’s too thin; your daddy’s too fat
Get over it
Get over it
All this whinin’ and cryin’ and pitchin’ a fit
Get over it, get over it
You say you haven’t been the same since you had your little crash
But you might feel better if they gave you some cash
The more I think about it, Old Billy was right
Let’s kill all the lawyers, kill ’em tonight
You don’t want to work; you want to live like a king
But the big, bad world doesn’t owe you a thing
Get over it
Get over it
If you don’t want to play, then you might as well split
Get over it, get over it
It’s like going to confession every time I hear you speak
You’re makin’ the most of your losin’ streak
Some call it sick, but I call it weak
You drag it around like a ball and chain
You wallow in the guilt; you wallow in the pain
You wave it like a flag, you wear it like a crown
Got your mind in the gutter, bringin’ everybody down
Complain about the present and blame it on the past
I’d like to find your inner child and kick its little ass
Get over it
Get over it
All this bitchin’ and moanin’ and pitchin’ a fit
Get over it, get over it
Get over it
Get over it
It’s gotta stop sometime, so why don’t you quit
Get over it, get over it
Get over it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H-Y7MAASkg
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“Get over it
Get over it
All this bitchin’ and moanin’ and pitchin’ a fit”
– If this is addressed to the man who was raped by the woman in the OP, I’d say this is very insensitive of you.
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No, its about your “victim mindset” you referred to.
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What is “a victim”? Merely someone who has had a negative experience that hasn’t, yet, happened to me.
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Mmm, I confess I read the post but skipped the comments because in a resigned sort of way I knew what they would contain, which is a certain number of people who get it, a certain number of people who really don’t get it with varying degrees of obnoxiousness, and a probable majority of people who sort of, kind of, get it but are falling all over their own inbuilt patriarchal societal conditioning while trying to wrap their heads around it being the exact same problem whatever the genital arrangements are of the people involved. My only solace is that slowly, the percentage of those merely tangled up in their own bias is increasing relative to the obnoxious, and I live in hope for the day when I will be able to say that for the clued up as opposed to the clueless.
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” it being the exact same problem whatever the genital arrangements are of the people involved”
– A beautiful phrase that sums up exactly what a normal approach should be to the issue.
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Wow, I honestly didn’t hear of this story until now. And now I’m going back and reading the original Dan Savage column, and I must admit: it’s taking my abject loathing of that man to a new and previously unplumbed depth.
“As for what you should do, well, I think you should dump the guilt-tripping, blame-shifting motherfucker. But if you want to keep seeing this guy, RAPIST, you need a simple way to determine whether he’s fully awake when he seems to be initiating sex in the middle of the night. Two or three hard slaps across the face might do the trick.”
Good god!
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The level of barbarity is just overpowering.
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News at five o’clock: Intent is now magic again for many feminists – well, at least it is for female rapist.
And if the Savage “advice” wasn’t bad enough we have Amanda Marcotte’s comment on the Feministe thread where she argues that it is more probable that the man was gaslighting the woman by faking his trauma.
It’s as if they think “mens rea” is a misspelling of “men’s rea”, since I don’t see that term pop up very often when the genders are reversed.
Feminists and other activists have done a big effort to get non-consentual sex recognized as rape. I am beginning to suspect that this is turning out to be a giant bait-n-switch as it dawns on them that it’s now possible they themselves could be rapists if/when they fail to get consent from their partner. They fall back on the same rationalization they’ve criticized male rapist and rape-apologists for making. Initially when I first saw feminists rationalize some male rape as not-quite-rape I was surprised – now I just find it depressingly predictable.
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Feminists and other activists have done a big effort to get non-consentual sex recognized as rape. I am beginning to suspect that this is turning out to be a giant bait-n-switch as it dawns on them that it’s now possible they themselves could be rapists if/when they fail to get consent from their partner.
Either that or they were intending to do a big effort to get non-consensual male/female sex recognized as male against female rape (not very gender neutral) but ended up with getting non-consentual sex recognized as rape (gender neutral).
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The quoted paragraph about mens rea was clumsily worded. It should have said “person intended to do harm or should have have known.
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