So my adventures in the all-male (I’m yet to hear a female voice on this station) radio continue, and here’s what I’ve been wondering: what is the payoff of traditional masculinity? The whole thing seems so pointless.
Based on what I’m hearing on that radio station, traditional men reinforce their sense of masculinity by:
– being obsessed with farting;
– taking pride in their poor hygiene;
– avoiding medical checkups and being very cavalier about their ailments;
– making efforts to stink as much as possible;
– presenting themselves as stupid and goofy;
– being stoic and tolerating pain;
– never asking for help.
Obviously, people don’t engage in any activity consistently unless there is a payoff. So what is the payoff here? Other than an earlier death, I see nothing.
At least, with the traditional femininity there are obvious and valuable playoffs (which is why it’s so hard to defeat.)
Clarissa's Blog 
One large pay off the illusion that by engaging in traditional masculinity you are establishing that you are a “real man” and thus are better than those who don’t do those things.
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Yes, but why these things? This strange list is chosen for a reason, as opposed to any other variation.
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There are three things on this list that are notable.
– avoiding medical checkups and being very cavalier about their ailments;
– being stoic and tolerating pain;
– never asking for help.
Those three things are seen as verifying one’s masculinity and the other things you listed are seen as ways of keeping the wool over men’s eyes. There are things that target most groups that serve the purpose of keeping them so “happy” and “satisfied” while they get screwed over.
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Not doing anything around the house, not investing into looking good for the opposite sex, probably sucking at job as well… and still claiming to “wear the pants” in a relationship just because of biology.
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Look at the list I gave. It isn’t about any of these things. Why this self-defeating list, specifically?
If I heard the discourse of, “I don’t do any housework because that’s beneath me”, I wouldn’t have any questions because there is an obvious payoff. But this identity is a lot more oriented towards tolerating suffering, pain, illness and stench. There’s got to be a reason.
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Hmm.
They’re values I think of as traditional British values, the stereotypical stiff upper lip.
In older fiction there’s a class element as well as gender; references to hysterical maids screaming in a crisis while the men of the house remain calm. Or seen as masucline virtues for girls to aspire to; ‘She’s as good as any boy’ etc.
I suppose they would have been useful values to the upper classes shipped off to boarding school at a young age, but that doesn’t explain why they appeal to American men today.
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Could it not be that your list is ridiculous? Other than the usual masculine pride in stoicism, none are widely true.
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My list??? 🙂 🙂 I heard it on the radio and feel completely baffled by it.
In my culture, the traditional masculinity is radically different. Which is why I’m fascinated with how Americans define it.
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Could it be that they were laughing at themselves, that’s male humour. Masculine guys don’t take themselves too seriously, that’s one of the reasons that girls are attracted to them. Like I said the stoic traits which include courage, temperance, and emotional control are admired, the rest are not.
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“Could it be that they were laughing at themselves, that’s male humour.”
– Jokes are only funny when they speak to some shared basic ideas.
“Masculine guys don’t take themselves too seriously, that’s one of the reasons that girls are attracted to them.”
– Let’s avoid these boring generalizations. Some people are attracted to goof-balls, some aren’t.
“Like I said the stoic traits which include courage, temperance, and emotional control are admired”
– Avoid passive voice. Some people like masochists, some don’t. The ones who do are called sadists.
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Hmmm, you do understand that male and female humour can be very different at times? And I don’t know as I have met many(any?) women that didn’t need a male’s sense of humour as critical for attraction. You can be the first if you wish…unique so to speak ;-D
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“Hmmm, you do understand that male and female humour can be very different at times?”
– You know that these generalizations bore me.
“And I don’t know as I have met many(any?) women that didn’t need a male’s sense of humour as critical for attraction.”
– We only meet people we are prepared to meet. I have never liked men who entertain. For the simple reason that I’m the one who entertains. I don’t need a competing performer. I need a grateful audience. 🙂 My husband always thought that since he is quiet and shy nobody would want him. Until he met me and realized that there are women who detest “the life of the party” guys.
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LOL, okay, I suspect that we are tangled not just in chromosomes but also in language ;-D
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// If I heard the discourse of, “I don’t do any housework because that’s beneath me”
That’s discourse that will fly in more patriarchal societies. Today’s USA needs something more disguised and subtle. Not “I won’t”, but “I can’t”.
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Ok, that is interesting. That makes sense. You are very bright.
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Reminds me of the commercials that are basically, “Hey, ladies, your man can’t reheat some soup without burning the house down, but thankfully we can sell you this product that will help you do all the cooking and cleaning on your own.”
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I think you’re looking at this the wrong way around. Partly this is about distracting men with trivia so they don’t see how they’re getting screwed.
This is also about infantilization (not just for women anymore!) This is a way to recreate and maintain childhood trauma for those men whose families only paid attention to them when they were annoyed at them (true of a lot of men). The pay off is attention from their mommy-wives.
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“Partly this is about distracting men with trivia so they don’t see how they’re getting screwed.”
– So true! And who, in fuck’s name, is downvoting this brilliant comment? Cliff is right, men are totally screwed by this form of masculinity.
Today, men need feminism a lot more than women. Because women have already won all the equal rights. It’s the equal responsibilities that are much less attractive. Men can only win when equal responsibilities catch up with equal rights.
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People who are competent at self care and self help don’t attract rescuers, Or rather a man who eats a proper diet with vegetables and roughage, knows how to dress and bathe himself properly, and reacts properly to pain and medical ailments has no need or attraction for a woman who practices traditional femininity. Traditional masculinity and femininity stunts people’s adulthood. It’s a very elaborate dance of pretending/showing incompetence at things to shore up other people’s gender identities. “I’ll pretend not to know how to feed myself, I’ll pretend that my skills evaporate at the threshold of the house door”
.
Being obsessed with farting, taking pride in poor hygiene, and making an effort to stink as much as possible are western concepts, sorry.
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“Traditional masculinity and femininity stunts people’s adulthood. It’s a very elaborate dance of pretending/showing incompetence at things to shore up other people’s gender identities.”
– Oh yes.
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Funny list. 🙂
I think all the poor hygiene, burping and farting is really about taking up space, because people smell and hear you from far away, which feels like dominance to people who are not dominant in real life. That is why very dominant men usually don’t burp or smell bad. And not going to the doctor has the benefit of getting to be in denial about death and illness a while longer, which on short term is a good feeling. I don’t see the benefit of being stoic, tolerating pain and not asking for help though.
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“I think all the poor hygiene, burping and farting is really about taking up space, because people smell and hear you from far away, which feels like dominance to people who are not dominant in real life.”
– Ah, interesting! I have the best readers ever because this is making a lot of sense to me.
” And not going to the doctor has the benefit of getting to be in denial about death and illness a while longer, which on short term is a good feeling. I don’t see the benefit of being stoic, tolerating pain and not asking for help though.”
– This is very central to my identity, so I can clarify. 🙂 I always did it for the sense of superiority that it afforded me. But now I’m moving away from that model.
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Is it really about being stoic or “I’ll pretend to be, but when I am ill my wife will serve me since every illness I show is serious by definition”?
What about a saying I heard from Russian culture that an ill man is served, while an ill woman must continue serving him and children? That everything is serious to a man, while a woman mustn’t be ill since nobody wants an ill wife.
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“What about a saying I heard from Russian culture that an ill man is served, while an ill woman must continue serving him and children? That everything is serious to a man, while a woman mustn’t be ill since nobody wants an ill wife.”
– Let’s leave the Russian-speaking culture aside, for the moment, because it formulates gender identities in the way that is the opposite of the American identities.
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// – Let’s leave the Russian-speaking culture aside, for the moment, because it formulates gender identities in the way that is the opposite of the American identities.
I think American women are also expected to serve kids and a husband, when they’re ill, while a husband is given more leeway. Isn’t it so? Let’s ask American commenters.
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No, in American traditional families the perennially sick is the woman.
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// And not going to the doctor has the benefit of getting to be in denial about death and illness a while longer, which on short term is a good feeling.
Not less, the benefit of continuing to smoke, drink, eat unhealthy food, etc. a lot longer.
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“Not less, the benefit of continuing to smoke, drink, eat unhealthy food, etc. a lot longer.”
– Good times. . . 🙂
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They’re trying to pretend there are no pay offs. Like if I said, “Look at me, I get paid a six figure salary at my job, but the things I really want you to focus on are my sadness at my early starts, the fact that I have dandruff, the unpleasant clatter of the elevator on my way up and the terrible sound of my secretary’s voice.”
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Those who get these big salaries can’t afford to stink and fart in public. 🙂
But what are the payoffs?
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The payoffs are to be treated as a person rather than as “emotion”.
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I’ve just finished the translation of an interview by a Ukrainian traitor who defected to Russia and is spreading lies about Ukraine. the note following the interview explains that, when he was answering, he was very emotional, which must mean he was telling the truth.
These are cultural differences for you. 🙂
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Yes, I also had a lot of troubles understanding how deeply pejorative the term, emotional, is, in Western Christian culture. It seems that if you express anything with any degree of emotion, you are no doubt trying to manipulate others whilst being unable to think clearly.
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I remember when I first moved to Canada, I was watching this TV show where the male protagonist really hurt the female protagonist’s feelings by telling her that she was very good in bed. To me, that was the greatest instance of cultural incomprehension ever.
I remember walking around the apartment and yelling (to nobody in particular because I was alone), “These people are crazy, crazy! They think being good in bed is shameful! Where he fuck am I????”
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Yeah, because of the sub text that she must have had more experience than a woman is supposed to have had. The biggest problems in cross-cultural relations involve an accurate reading of sub-texts, especially if the situation is a bit fraught or hostile. I’ve had tremendous difficulties with those.
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Maybe, just in being himself ;-D
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musteryou
Well, it does change the dance if the woman has more experience. It didn’t bother me much, but I wonder if there maybe ghosts in too many modern beds.
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