I hope that all of the people who keep expressing themselves on the subject of Israel realize that there are currently two options facing Jews:
1. Forget Jewishness, abandon it as a project that failed to succeed, and just move on completely.
2. Keep pressing for a mono-ethnic Jewish state (or a state where Jews are an absolute majority), no matter the cost to anybody.
That’s it, there are no other options. Only a completely deranged person would expect Jews happily to embrace the idea of being an ethnic minority everywhere they live after seeing how that plan turned out for them during the last 2,000 years. Since the Holocaust, there has been absolutely no possibility whatsoever that Jews would joyously accept putting themselves in a position where the Holocaust would happen again. One really should be a complete weirdo to say, “Yeah, well, whatever, let’s keep doing exactly what we were doing and hope it leads to an entirely different result this time around.” In order to achieve a different result, Jews had to abandon the 2,000-year old practice of being a permanent ethnic minority.
The 60% of Jews who currently reside in diaspora live in the condition of a temporary ethnic minority. Their co-existence with the host societies is made possible only by the knowledge that, at any moment, they can pick up and leave for a place where they will not be a minority. If you know any Jews in your country, you must be aware that they are donating enormous amounts of money to Israel. The point of doing that is precisely to guarantee their own status as a temporary ethnic minority in their host countries. They are donating the money to Israel “just in case.” And the case in question is the next Holocaust. If this surprises you in any way, do read something on historic memory and collective trauma.
We all know that out of the two options I listed at the beginning of this article I chose the first one for myself. What bothers me, however, is that nobody seems to want to discuss the actual costs of these options openly and honestly.
Option 1 means the destruction of an entire culture. It also requires Jews to carry out the goals of the Holocaust of their own volition.
Option 2 means constant and increasing loss of life, deaths of people, human beings, each of whom only has a single life to live.
There is a lot of stupid blabber going on and on about Israel, yet most of it is along the lines of “let everything be good and nothing be bad.” And that is simply not possible.
Clarissa's Blog 
Hi! I am not quite sure why you feel option 1 amounts to “carrying out the goals of the Holocaust of their own volition”. Holocaust involved physical extermination of Jews, without opt-out opportunity via agreeing to assimilate into non-Jewish culture. Second, do you really see a realistic chance of Jews in North America, for example, being ever subjected to anything remotely resembling Holocaust? If the situation here ever approaches this level, it will be far preceded by the US ceasing support of Israel, and then Israel would lose and Jews would have to evacuate from there anyway. There will be no Israel to run to if/when Holocaust-2 in North America would become a realistic prospect….
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“I am not quite sure why you feel option 1 amounts to “carrying out the goals of the Holocaust of their own volition”. Holocaust involved physical extermination of Jews, without opt-out opportunity via agreeing to assimilate into non-Jewish culture.”
– Ultimately, the result is the same: a world without Jews. This is why I said “the goals of the Holocaust”, not its practices.
“Second, do you really see a realistic chance of Jews in North America, for example, being ever subjected to anything remotely resembling Holocaust?”
– And this is precisely the kind of thinking that got Jews into trouble every single time. Even as the ovens on Oświęcim were on at full blast, nobody could make themselves believe that this was possible. I do not think one can ask people to believe that, this time around, it will be different just because. . . I don’t even know because of what.
“If the situation here ever approaches this level, it will be far preceded by the US ceasing support of Israel”
– Let’s not forget that “the support of the US to Israel” is, for the most part, the support of American Jews for Israel.
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“Even as the ovens on Oświęcim were on at full blast”
The ovens were in Auschwitz, the Nazi run death camp*. Oświęcim is the Polish town nearby (the degree to which its inhabitants knew or cared, given their own problems, what was going on in Auschwitz is debatable).
*I’ve read that one of the reasons Auschwitz is so well known is that it was …. not as awful as some of the other camps which simply killed all new arrivals (and so there are no survivors to make them well known).
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In our historic memory, it’s preserved with the Polish name. We don’t now the word Auschwitz and don’t recognize it.
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Cliff, Auschwitz had far more survivors than the Operation Rheinhard camps of Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka so you are right that is why it is better known. Auschwitz was a complex that had both two labor camps and a death camp. The survivors mostly came from those assigned to the labor camps. The Operation Rheinhard camps were built solely as extermination camps and the only inmate labor used was to destroy the corpses. These camps had very few survivors.
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“We don’t now the word Auschwitz”
Who’s “We”? In American English (including American Jews IME) the camp is Auschwitz and Oświęcim is gibberish.
I see that the Russian wikipedia is for Освенцим and the Ukrainian is for Аушвіц.
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We are the Russian-speaking Jews, of course.
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“Let’s not forget that “the support of the US to Israel” is, for the most part, the support of American Jews for Israel”
US Evangelical Christians are very big supporters of Israel. The most overt support for Israel I ever heard in the US was from evangelicals (far more unified that Jewish opinion, I’ve known some very pro-Palestinian American Jews).
And, ironically enough, evangelicals have tthe most favorable opinion of Jews in the US (while being a least favorite religious group of Jews i the US)
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\\ You didn’t understand my post, not even remotely. … I’m not afraid of the Holocaust or trying to assimilate fast before it happens. I’ve broken the link with the label and the trauma doesn’t haunt me.
Can you clarify at least one thing, please? You commented
And this is precisely the kind of thinking that got Jews into trouble every single time. Even as the ovens on Oświęcim were on at full blast, nobody could make themselves believe that this was possible. I do not think one can ask people to believe that, this time around, it will be different just because. . . I don’t even know because of what.
From that I understood that you think persecutions and even second Holocaust can happen again, even in the West. Have I understood you wrong? Do you think Jews now can be a permanent ethnic minority in the West, but their collective trauma prevents them from that? And because of that trauma Jews choose one of two options in the post?
Have you broken the link with the label of a Jew, and don’t see yourself as part of Jewish people and their collective memories? Which label?
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I can try but I’m afraid it will be useless. Anything can happen, anything at all. However, the probability that I die due to the next Holocaust is enormously smaller than the probability that I won’t live until tomorrow because of a tromb, a drunk driver, slipping in the shower, falling of the stairs and breaking my neck, being hit by a stray billet, etc. I’m aware of this, just like everybody else is. But I’m not letting this knowledge impact my life strategy. I’m not refusing to leave the house because of these dangers, even though the percentage of people dying as a result of them is high. Not ten minutes ago, I was backing out of my driveway and a truck flew up the hill at a speed that is not allowed in the subdivision and flew past me. If I’d backed out the garage 30 seconds earlier, it’s probable that I wouldn’t be writing this comment now. But I didn’t return home, cowering and shaking in terror after this. I just chalked it up to luck and moved on.
To be continued in the next comment.
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Now, back to you. This constant need you experience to convince yourself that horrible things will happen to you the second you leave Israel, the thirst to find proof that only in Israel you can be safe, is very common among immigrants. It means one thing: you are not happy in emigration. Imagine if I posted an article a day saying, “Thank God N exists because if I hadn’t met him I’d be in danger of getting raped and killed and abused by other men who are not nearly as kind as he is.” After reading a hundred posts like this, what would you think about my relationship with N? That I’m happy with him or that I’m miserable and need to grasp at straws to convince myself that he’s the only option for me?” The answer is evident. You are not happy in Israel.
To be continued in the next comment.
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Now, as a two-time immigrant who was happy in emigration once and painfully miserable the second time, I can tell you that any instance of “unhappy in Israel” or “unhappy on New Haven” really means “unhappy inside myself.” There is something that makes you existentially unhappy. You are an intelligent person and you are capable of insight. I believe the time has come for you to see the truth. When you say you can’t travel because you fear anti-Semites, that’s not rational. And it isn’t about anti-Semites at all. You need to concentrate on finding what it really is that is causing this fear. There is something that causes you to fear annihilation, and that’s no way to live. You can start changing this right now because, believe me, this will only get worse with age. And if this existential terror hasn’t started impacting your academic, social and professional life yet, unfortunately it will. I care about you and want you to be happy, and that’s the only reason why I’m pointing this out. Your texts are those of a highly intelligent, very curious but also a very wounded person. We – the post-Soviets, the Jews and the Ukrainians – carry around tragic levels of trauma. And when that trauma locks into personal, individual traumas, the result is life- shattering anxiety.
We can’t remove the historic trauma but we can address the individual. For instance, I will never react to food in a way of people who don’t carry the legacy of the Holodomor. I will always be slightly abnormal around food. However, I got to a point where I don’t wake up with an overwhelming need to scarf down 6 kotlety at 2 am or have panic attacks when people see me eat. I have a housewarming party tomorrow and not only will I let 30 people inside my house – which would have been unthinkable to me even a year ago – but I will eat with them and it will be fun.
So here is my advice: you need to stop the Holocaust that is occurring inside you every day. Save an actual Jew – yourself – from destruction. If you don’t have the energy to do it for yourself, do it for the sake of the Jewish people. And I’m not being facetious. This can actually be good motivation.
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Part of the answer depends on how you define “Jew”
a) followers of a particular religion
b) carriers of a particular culture
c) carriers of particular genetic markers
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It doesn’t matter, really. Any and all definitions can be used.
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But I think the answers will be different for each case.
I don’t think that a) needs any special state (since I’m generally against theocracy)
b) is problematic given the wide diaspora (not to mention problems about defining ‘culture’
c) not clear to me what this would mean
If we’re talking about Israel, one of the things I always say is that I don’t much care about Israel as a “Jewish state” (given my lack of enthusiasm for any religious-based state) but I do care about it as an “Israeli state” that I’d rather continue to exist rather than be driven into the sea or demographically overwhelmed by Palestinians). The Israelis (by which I mean, roughly, sabra) are a unique linguistic and cultural group with nowhere to go (in that emigrating means losing their unique linguistic and cultural status).
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// But I think the answers will be different for each case.
a) followers of a particular religion
b) carriers of a particular culture
c) carriers of particular genetic markers //
Cliff, in case of Jews and Judaism, all three definitions go together. In the long run, when Jews lose a) and marry non-Jews, b) and c) disappear too.
\\ b) is problematic given the wide diaspora (not to mention problems about defining ‘culture’
For 2000 years, Jews have been living *only*in the diaspora and still remained Jews.
Both in terms of religion and of genetic heritage / markers.
c) means that genetic tests find parts of DNA, which identify one as belonging to the Jewish people / nationality.
\\ I don’t much care about Israel as a “Jewish state” […] but I do care about it as an “Israeli state” […] The Israelis (by which I mean, roughly, sabra) are a unique linguistic and cultural group
Here we’ll probably agree to disagree, but this made me want to hit my head on a table. Many times.
In Hebrew “sabra” means “a Jew born in Israel.” It doesn’t refer to non-Jewish Israelis.
Those unique Israelis are simply Jews, who revived their ancient language (Hebrew) by putting it for everyday use, instead of continuing to only read holy texts in it. “Culture” is partly Jewish and partly Western. The unique component, which separates us from f.e. USA, is Jewish! Israelis are Zionists, meaning Jewish nationalism.
And, of course, there are plenty of Haredi sabra, who aren’t a part of secular Jewish culture. The same Jews from diaspora, only speaking in Hebrew too. Unlike secular Jews, they can also speak Yiddish. Following your logic, they aren’t members of “the Israelis” since they aren’t “unique” enough.
Definition of ISRAEL
1: jacob 2
2: the Jewish people
3: a people chosen by God
In my country Israel follows the second definition. “Jewish” can refer to nationality (genetics), faith (Judaism) or both. Lets apply your words to France:
” I don’t much care about France as a “state of French people” […] but I do care about it as a “French state” […] The French (those born in France) are a unique linguistic and cultural group ”
Sounds weird, right?
Last time: people, who founded this country, founded it for JEWS, not ‘Israelis’ or whatever. Unless by ‘Israelis’ one means ‘Jews in Israel.’
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\\ I chose the first one for myself […] Option 1 means the destruction of an entire culture. It also requires Jews to carry out the goals of the Holocaust of their own volition.
I am glad you acknowledged it directly and honestly. I remember you got very angry in “Israel is against me” post, but if the goal of Israel is preservation of Jewish people, isn’t it natural that my country would see assimilation as the greatest danger? I am myself only half-Jewish and have zero judgement of your family’s choice, but the way you described your choice yourself leaves no logical way to be angry at Zionism / Israel for opposing that.
\\ Option 2 means constant and increasing loss of life, deaths of people, human beings, each of whom only has a single life to live.
I disagree with “constant and increasing loss of life” part. The phrase describes life in diaspora, unfortunately. I am very sorry that it’s true on a personal level (unshared by most sabra, imo).
As for Israel, like all countries, after its building is complete, Israeli Jews will enjoy normal life. Countries in Europe also had numerous wars over borders. Long term, Jewish people will win from having their own state, both on national and personal levels. It does still require current and several future generations to pay a lot, you’re right about that.
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“I remember you got very angry in “Israel is against me” post, but if the goal of Israel is preservation of Jewish people, isn’t it natural that my country would see assimilation as the greatest danger? I am myself only half-Jewish and have zero judgement of your family’s choice, but the way you described your choice yourself leaves no logical way to be angry at Zionism / Israel for opposing that.”
– Putting labels above the interests of actual human beings is a deplorable practice. There is nothing logical or normal about it, not in the modern world. As I said, people only have one life to live, a single one. All group labels in the universe can go to hell in a basket if they stand in the way of my personal happiness even for one second. And yes, it makes me very angry when anybody claims that a label trumps a human life.
“I disagree with “constant and increasing loss of life” part.”
– How many people were killed in the last round of conflict between Israel and Palestine?
“It does still require current and several future generations to pay a lot, you’re right about that.”
– Let’s not beat around the bush here: it requires many, many people to die.
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\\ If you know any Jews in your country, you must be aware that they are donating enormous amounts of money to Israel. The point of doing that is precisely to guarantee their own status as a temporary ethnic minority in their host countries.
Haven’t understood it fully. Are they afraid Israel won’t let them come, if they don’t keep sending money? Their money isn’t necessary for Israel’s continued existence already.
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“Their money isn’t necessary for Israel’s continued existence already.”
– 🙂 🙂 🙂 Do you know the amount Israel gets from the US every year?
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\\ – Let’s not beat around the bush here: it requires many, many people to die.
Less than would die if Jews decided to remain w/o a state and waited for the second Holocaust. And then, if any survived, for the third.
\\ There is nothing logical or normal about it, not in the modern world.
Nationalism is still a powerful force, lets not exaggerate about how ‘modern’ our world is.
When nationalism weakens, tribalism often takes its place.
\\ Do you know the amount Israel gets from the US every year?
Do you think we would disappear w/o it? And I meant private Jews sending money, not USA government helping us to buy its weapons. USA helps other states too, if it suits American interest. W/o any connection to American Jews.
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\\ All group labels in the universe can go to hell in a basket if they stand in the way of my personal happiness even for one second.
I understand your point. However, Jews, who persued personal happiness in Germany in the 30ies, found that not having a “group label” of “nation state” cost them their lives. Choosing your way doesn’t guarantee safety or happiness. People can’t always escape to another place in time, if their place becomes horribly antisemitic again.
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I’m not talking about the 1930s or 1492. I’m talking about today. What happened since then is that individualism has won the day in developed societies.
“People can’t always escape to another place in time, if their place becomes horribly antisemitic again.”
– Have you read my post at all? 🙂 🙂
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\\ I’m not talking about the 1930s or 1492. I’m talking about today. What happened since then is that individualism has won the day in developed societies.
I don’t fully understand how the last statement goes together with you agreeing that Jews as a permanent ethnic minority in the West would get second Holocaust.
And Europe is still extremely antisemitic, despite individualism.
\\ – Have you read my post at all?
Yes. I thought about Klubnikis and her children. 1/4 Jews were killed too.
I understand that you trust your family will completely assimilate till the new bad times for Jews come.
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You didn’t understand my post, not even remotely. Which is strange because you are usually very sharp. I’m not afraid of the Holocaust or trying to assimilate fast before it happens. I’ve broken the link with the label and the trauma doesn’t haunt me. But you are showing how badly it haunts you if you interpret my post in this way.
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\\ Keep pressing for … a state where Jews are an absolute majority
Is it different for European nation states? There too to have a nation state, one must be a majority. I suppose the difference is that their immigrants can become a part of f.e. French culture, but immigrants to Israel would have to convert to Judaism to become part of our culture?
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\\ If this surprises you in any way, do read something on historic memory and collective trauma.
Do you have a good article to recommend?
I don’t like the terms “historic memory” and “collective trauma” since they probably imply to most people “something not reflecting today’s reality.”
“historic” = belonging to history, resigned to old dusty history books
“trauma” = because of past trauma, you don’t judge reality well. You’re paranoid. This time, in today’s world, Jews will be safe forever abroad.
That’s what I keep seeing on the net, including in your blog’s comments. 😦
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“I don’t like the terms “historic memory” and “collective trauma” since they probably imply to most people “something not reflecting today’s reality.””
– I don’t write for idiots. I write for people who are at least marginally educated. The phenomenon of historic memory has been studied at length. This is a good place to begin: http://culturalstudiesnow.blogspot.com/2012/03/maurice-halbwachs-historical-memory-and.html
But there is a mountain of literature on this.
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“If the situation here ever approaches this level, it will be far preceded by the US ceasing support of Israel”
– Let’s not forget that “the support of the US to Israel” is, for the most part, the support of American Jews for Israel.
—
I think valter’s point was that in the nightmare scenario, and it is truly the stuff of nightmares, that the entire world somehow made another Holocaust their mission, and even US (or whatever country is supporting Israel at that moment) stopped giving any support to Israel, then it really wouldn’t matter if the Jews were living in Israel or not. Are we seriously claiming that Jews would be safe in Israel in this scenario?
I’m not sure killing other people and denying them human rights in the name of processing historic trauma is justified.
Can’t recommend this article highly enough:
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“Are we seriously claiming that Jews would be safe in Israel in this scenario?”
– Obviously safer than elsewhere.
“I’m not sure killing other people and denying them human rights in the name of processing historic trauma is justified.”
– I am not seeing an alternative to the 2 options I listed. Is anybody in this discussion seeing it? Relying on the US? Don’t make me die of laughter, especially since today’s events in Ukraine which did and still does rely on the US. We are on the brink of not having any Ukraine at all, but the great news is that Obama is about to say something on the subject of how preoccupied he is with the situation. Yippee.
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SB, if Israel threatens to bomb any attacker threatening its existence with nuclear weapons… And the entire world wouldn’t make it their mission at once, a few countries is much more likely. That is how it has been during all Jewish history. I like that you are forced to resort to insane scenarios to examplify how my country would fail to protect me.
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Yes, this is what I meant. Holocaust-2 will not happen all of a sudden. If it ever happens (which I find extremely unlikely, and obviously do not hope for), it will be preceded by gradual diminishing of the support for Israel. Before Western public opinion shifts enough to physically go after Jews, it will go through the stages of “if Israel wants to build a nation-state of one ethnic/religious group on a territory populated by several groups, it should fend for itself and bear full responsibility for its actions alone”, “our historic debt is paid, we do not owe them anything any more”, etc. The state military aid (not only by the US; Germany sells submarines to Israel at very discount prices) will gradually dwindle. Adversaries of Israel will be emboldened, the clashes will get bloodier. Life in Israel will become even less safe. The US may some day decide not to exercise its veto power over anti-Israeli resolutions at the UN… Growing anti-Semitic attitudes in the West (if this scenario ever materializes) will first result in various socio-economic discrimination of Jews, long before it gets physical. Thus, private Jewish citizens of the West will be less in a position to support Israel financially, or to lobby for any pro-Israeli causes.
By the way, it looks to me like Israel behaves as if it assumes that the above things could never happen. I mean not the Holocaust-2 here, but the West simply taking indifferent stance on Israel one day, and letting it fend for itself alone…
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The West is already not even just indifferent but actually hostile to Israel. The ones who help Israel in the West are non-Israeli Jews. Period. That’s it. There is no other help. The bleatings of US Evangelicals are not help, just like Obama’s speeches on Ukraine are of no actual help.
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And by the way, Holocaust 1 was perceived as extremely sudden by everybody at the time. It took forever for a collective agreement that it even happened.
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\\ The West is already not even just indifferent but actually hostile to Israel.
Everybody and I do mean everybody in Israel knows that. It has been like that since forever already. It’s like valter07 and me live on different planets. I don’t intend to hurt you, valter07, but your comment sounds *so* strange.
If West let us fend for ourselves, it would be a huge improvement from the present situation.
Clarissa, I will email you in the future. Right now I don’t have enough energy to concentrate as needed for that. Thank you for agreeing to talk.
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\\ The West […] US Evangelicals are not help, just like Obama’s speeches on Ukraine are of no actual help.
A title of a news article: “Obama says does not yet have military strategy for Islamic State.”
Another title:
In Israel, concern as Qaeda-linked rebels seize Syrian side of border
In a meeting with a delegation of the Armed Services Committee of the House of Representatives, Netanyahu said that ‘just now an extension of al-Qaeda in the Golan Heights has kidnapped dozens of UN forces. We must take a joint position in order to defeat them.’
That’s what we have at our border and what UN forces are worth. Remember it when the West will offer to use them as part of Israel’s future agreement with Palestinians.
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How about googling the amount of US military aid to Israel? I stress – aid by the US as a state, not by private Jewish citizens. (German submarines are minor issue compared to that.)
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The US as a state only gives this aid to Israel because if the Jewish millionaires don’t give money to the politicians’ electoral campaigns, these politicians will not feel as good. The way this works: private Jewish citizens donate money to Obama, Obama shits his pants, promises to send aid to Israel. And I know you know this but for some reason need me to say it aloud. 🙂
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\\ How about googling the amount of US military aid to Israel? I stress – aid by the US as a state, not by private Jewish citizens.
By “the West”, I meant “Europe”, not USA. Thus, when you said “Before Western public opinion shifts enough … ” – in Europe and even among younger Americans it has already shifted.
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—I don’t intend to hurt you, valter07, but your comment sounds *so* strange.
Why should it hurt me? Or is it the code for “in my opinion in the fair world valter07 should hurt because of his views”? 🙂 Besides, we are even on that “strangeness” issue.
I really would like to know what exactly you mean by “hostile” in this context. What particular behavior of the West towards Israel is hostile? Is that behavior more hostile than towards somebody else in similar circumstances? Are Jews in the US or Canada more at risk of race/ethnicity/religion-based violence than people of African descent? More at risk than Muslims? If you were to make a rating of to which countries the US is more hostile and to which it is less hostile – where would you put Israel in that rating?
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“What particular behavior of the West towards Israel is hostile? Is that behavior more hostile than towards somebody else in similar circumstances?”
– YES. Obviously so. Where are the boycotts and the demonstrations and the public outrage over what Russia is doing in Ukraine today??? Obama gave another speech and didn’t even manage to squeeze the word “invasion” out of himself. There are troops of the regular army of the Russian federation fighting the Ukrainian army on the territory of Ukraine, and all we hear anywhere is “Ukrainian rebels and pro-Russian separatists.” And can you please point me in the direction of a single Facebook thread or a boycotting initiative started by non-Ukrainians and non-Russians and opposing the aggression of Russia against Ukraine? A single one.
And mind you, Palestine is not a separate, sovereign state whose sovereignty was guaranteed on an international level. Yet everybody is up in arms, everybody militates on its behalf. And it’s good that people are doing that. But those same people have fuck all to say about the invasion of an actual, internationally recognized country by a neighboring country. Try comparing the number of comments I get in my posts about Ukraine and in my posts about Israel.
This fact alone proves, utterly and completely, that the Facebooking Palestine-supporters don’t care about Palestine, sovereignty, nation-state, independence of peoples, etc. Just as I’ve been saying forever.
Gosh, el, you should be happy because even hatred is better than this utter indifference Ukraine merits from the world. At least, people know you exist. That’s something already.
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Clarissa: —The US as a state only gives this aid to Israel because if the Jewish millionaires don’t give money to the politicians’ electoral campaigns, these politicians will not feel as good. The way this works: private Jewish citizens donate money to Obama, Obama shits his pants, promises to send aid to Israel. And I know you know this but for some reason need me to say it aloud. And I know you know this but for some reason need me to say it aloud.
And you also know that when Jews speak of Jewish lobby it is much more acceptable than when non-Jews speak of it. 🙂 🙂 The former is at worst self-criticism, the latter – anti-Semitism.
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“And you also know that when Jews speak of Jewish lobby it is much more acceptable than when non-Jews speak of it. 🙂 🙂 The former is at worst self-criticism, the latter – anti-Semitism.”
– I have no idea what you are trying to say. That might be because I’m not feeling well today but, honestly, I’m lost. Are you saying it’s a mystery to anybody on this planet that private citizens in the US are allowed by law to make political contributions? And even non-citizens are allowed. I have made political contributions. Where is self-criticism or anti-Semitism in this extremely well-known fact?
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\\ Yes, this is what I meant. Holocaust-2 will not happen all of a sudden.
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Clarissa, I am not implying that US citizens of any descent should not lobby for whichever political causes they deem worthy, or should not give money for those causes. I have no problem whatsoever with Jewish US citizens in particular lobbying in favor of Israel. I wish Ukrainian US citizens were as successful lobbying for Ukraine. (But if I am not taking sides, I also should wish that Palestinian US citizens were successfully lobbying for Palestine.) I am merely saying that it is not always appropriate for an outsider.to point out this lobbying and fundraising. This is universal, not specific to Jewish people. Most groups of people have different perception when the same social phenomenon pertaining to their group is mentioned by people from within the group and from outside the group. Did you read “Barny’s version” by Mordechai Richter? What he writes about fundraisers in Montreal Jewish community? He can do it, because he himself is a Jew. From someone else same words would sound different. Thus, yes, I did want someone Jewish (not necessary you) to say what you’ve said. So it has been said, but I, a non-Jew, did not have to say it and risk being suspected of anti-Semitism 🙂
And speaking of Ukraine vs Israel comparison, one can turn it any way one wants. One can also argue that since Israel gets US military aid and Ukraine does not get it (despite Russia being bigger threat by virtue of having actual army with sophisticated heavy weapons), Israel is being treated better than Ukraine.
I do not see why the issue of who has nation-state and who does not is used as justification for giving preferences to any side of any conflict or to one conflict over another. Why the right of anyone to nation-state (too often interpreted as a license to discriminate non-majority groups, relegating them to guests, or pests, in host/guest dichotomy) is holier than all other rights, and not subject to limitations via general principle “my rights end where other human beings’ rights begin”? Besides, then Palestinians also have the right to their nation-state where they will be discriminating Jews. This is obviously ridiculous…
As for the majority of Israel -boycotters – I do not think they are particularly anti-Semitic per se. They are people suffering from what some call “liberal guilt”, who want to feel they are doing something good (protecting somebody) without thinking about all the implications, or having any responsibility for their actions. Israel just currently occupies certain place in this picture of the world. Not because it is populated by Jews, but because of what role it plays. IMHO It could be substituted by more suitable “oppressor”; very few of them will remember that Israel exists once more suitable villain is found.
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But isn’t Russia a very suitable oppressor? Why is nobody rallying against it? Why is everybody here so pro- Russian? I honestly don’t get it. I have no other answer than Jews are easier to hate because they are Jews.
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And this is not a new thing. Russians slaughtered the Chechens for years. Then they slaughtered Georgians. Now they are slaughtering Ukrainians. They persecute women, persecute gays, say horrible racist things about Obama, falsify elections, imprison and beat peaceful protesters – yet the Western Liberals adore them. What sense is this making? Where is a single boycott of American academics? Where is a single condemning peep out of them? The fuck is going on?
The longer this continues, the more convinced I get that I was wrong this entire time and there is nothing, nothing behind this so-called support for Palestinians than good old Jew-hatred.
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What would the political and social change look like if the Israelis stopped engaging its internal enemies with military forces and started engaging them with police forces?
For a start, Israel would stop dealing with Hamas as anything other than a criminal terrorist organisation that needs to be rounded up and imprisoned, and they’d stop making cease-fire arrangements with Hamas.
It seems that Israel has the option of behaving in a way that’s consistent with these regions in conflict being properly part of the state of Israel, rather than as settlements that they can shell and bomb as if there were no political or social repercussions.
The Israeli state in acting this way demonstrates that it is ineffective at being a “state qua state”, so to speak, and that it occupies territory, rather than administering it …
Generally the Americans had the decency not to send military troops into cities, such as Detroit and New Orleans, for instance, and aside from one brief moment in Philadelphia where the powers that be decided they could go rogue on a certain organisation, generally local governments don’t get into the unilateral militarised attack game as well.
Of course, at least the Americans generally aren’t guilty of war crimes on their own soil, and that the American government is at least moderately competent at the task of administering its states and territories.
Still, this is about Israel, rather than the United States …
I believe there are plenty of ways to profit from the people involved being relatively incompetent at arranging their own future peace, and that draining resources from the region may be the only way to force the combatants to the negotiating table. In fact, I would advocate an acceleration of this process — perhaps the poorer sons and daughters of Israel (and Palestine), having lost both their protected and pariah status in the world, would be more sensible negotiators.
I don’t understand why this has to be anyone’s fight but Israel’s, and why world governments have to continue to countenance both Israel’s continued war crimes and Hamas’s continued trans-border criminality, let alone Palestine’s complicit guilt in allowing the present state of affairs to continue.
In short, I don’t believe this is a problem that needs to be solved right now, simply because there are other preparations that can be made to force the relevant parties to the negotiating table.
Both of your solutions are premature — there’s a third solution in the works, and it may be considerably more effective because it leaves all of the relevant parties with no other choices.
[promises not to wear the Machiavellian World Elite hat for the next posting] 🙂
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Jones, isn’t your third solution simply a way to ensure two states, 2nd solution in Clarissa’s post? I don’t understand the importance you assign to part of Israel or not, police vs ‘military police’? Should Israel send police to Gaza when they begin shooting or what? “their own soil” – Gazans would want to kill you for that. 🙂
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You cannot compare Israel with the US today because they are in completely different stages of their nation-building process. Israel should be compared with the US in the early XIXth century. And when we do that, we will see that sending troops against part of the country was very much acceptable until 1860s even.
Nation-building is a very special process that is always conducted in the same way, according to the same mechanisms, using the same principles. Comparing nations in different stages of this process is a waste of time.
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Good article. I particularly agree with the closing statement “There is a lot of stupid blabber going on and on about Israel, yet most of it is along the lines of “let everything be good and nothing be bad.” And that is simply not possible.”
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\\ If you don’t have the energy to do it for yourself, do it for the sake of the Jewish people.
I am not a person who would really think “I am doing it for the sake of the Jewish people…” For instance, I can see myself living abroad and marrying a non-Jew, like you.
\\ Your texts are those of … a very wounded person.
Only when I talk about Israel?
Thank you for comments.
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No, it’s not just Israel. Do you remember how we talked about dating a while ago? And all you did was list your fears of the bad thing that can happen on a date. And obviously, bad thing or even horrible things do happen on dates. And there are anti-Semites everywhere. But some people still date, travel, and have fun. Even in the world where bad things happen, you can still be happy and have everything you ever wanted.
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\\ There is something that makes you existentially unhappy.
I can think about a few things, but (if you want) they are suitable only for email.
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If that helps, then sure, let’s do email. I saw you have a pretty profound reaction to the issue of being an unwanted – or not the most wanted – child. This might be an area to dig in. Of course, I’m not denying the possibility that I’m seeing a profound reaction as a form of my own projection. Only you know what speaks to you.
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I now watched TV, a weekly program discussing news, which invites politicians, various experts, etc. Two things caught my attention:
1) UKRAINE — Avigdor Lieberman, our Minister of Foreign Affairs, said that even though USA and the West pressure Israel to join them against Russia, we won’t join them since “the distance between USA and Russia is huge, but between Israel and Syria … “. (We share a border, if somebody doesn’t know.) He said we try to preserve normal relations both with Russia and with USA.
Clarissa, you’ll probably disagree, but I support him here. Israel has too many enemies already, the last thing we need is to fight Syrian terrorists too. It won’t help Ukraine anyway, only put me in bigger physical danger.
2) American Help & Dead in Gaza — people, who support Palestinians or are indifferent, say USA should stop supporting Israel. They claim it would help Gazans, among other things.
The program included an interview with Moshe “Bogie” Ya’alon, a former Chief of Staff of the Israel Defense Forces and current Defense Minister, who together with Netanyahu and Chief of General Staff (Rav Aluf Benny Gantz) took leading role in this operation. Remember that “Netanyahu decided to accept a ceasefire without consulting with members of his government or Security Cabinet,” which further increases the influence of Ya’alon.
He said that without an Iron Dome, Israel would have had to occupy the entire Gaza since living under such amount of rockets would’ve been impossible. It would’ve led to hundreds of Israeli dead (instead of 71) and much much more Palestinian dead, “not all of which would’ve been terrorists.” That’s his words. He also said “if Israel went 2 km into Gaza and got such numbers of dead, think what would’ve happened as the result of entering deeply.” Naturally, it’s true for both sides.
2 km ~ 2000 Palestinian dead
2a km … do the math
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“It would’ve led to hundreds of Israeli dead (instead of 71) and much much more Palestinian dead, “not all of which would’ve been terrorists.” ”
– And who was telling me yesterday that there is no constant death in Israel?
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\\ – And who was telling me yesterday that there is no constant death in Israel?
I don’t think that living in the West without Israel would lead to less dead Jews long term.
And sometimes ‘long term’ may be pretty short.
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I’m talking about people who are actually already dead. And you are talking about imaginary deaths. There is a difference.
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“Avigdor Lieberman, our Minister of Foreign Affairs, said that even though USA and the West pressure Israel to join them against Russia, we won’t join them since “the distance between USA and Russia is huge, but between Israel and Syria”
– First of all, nobody in the West is “against Russia.” You berate valter01 for blindness on the issue of the supposedly pro-Israeli West and then fall into the same fallacy two seconds later on the subject of the West and Ukraine. What’s up with that? Second, there is nothing whatsoever that Israel could do to help Ukraine at this point. There is also nothing Israel can do to prevent Russia from being very anti-Israel. The only thing that Israel could do that would be of help is extradite all of the Russian criminals back to Russia today. But that would be of more help to Israel proper than to anybody else.
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\\ First of all, nobody in the West is “against Russia.” You berate valter01 … and then fall into the same fallacy
I don’t fall anywhere. That’s what Lieberman said, as I remember it. I reported parts of the program to you.
\\ The only thing that Israel could do that would be of help is extradite all of the Russian criminals back to Russia today.
Do we have many of them? I suppose, you mean a few rich people.
“Russian criminals” = Russian Jews who are also criminals?
Frankly, we have more than enough really serious problems, and I don’t think extraditing a few Russians would make any difference. I more worry about extraditing terrorists.
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“I don’t fall anywhere. That’s what Lieberman said, as I remember it. I reported parts of the program to you.”
– And then you said you support his position.
“Do we have many of them? I suppose, you mean a few rich people.
“Russian criminals” = Russian Jews who are also criminals?”
– Nevzlin is the very first one that comes to mind.
“Frankly, we have more than enough really serious problems, and I don’t think extraditing a few Russians would make any difference.”
– What, like it would be so complicated just to show this vicious gangster the door? I find this relaxed approach to crime very disturbing.
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Regarding historical traumas, I liked this article about today’s Germany:
Are Today’s Germans Morally Responsible for the Holocaust?
Yascha Mounk’s (a 31-year-old German Jew who’s a doctoral candidate at Harvard) new book on Jewish identity leaves readers with a question: Are people destined to see themselves as the descendants of victims or oppressors?
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/01/are-todays-germans-morally-responsible-for-the-holocaust/283243/
Another article I lately read is kind of funny. It’s about the book “I Sleep in Hitler’s Room.” Jewish bestselling author Tuvia Tenenbom is obsessed with the German obsession with Jews. Here is his interview:
http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/i-slept-in-hitlers-room-and-germany-went-ballistic/2013/07/08/0/
What I found interesting was
But the head of the publishing company, who comes of Germany’s top families, went into a rage.
…
If there was a line in the book about people not liking “Jews,” he demanded that I change the word to “Israel.”
…
He didn’t stop there. He went really low, at one point calling me a “hysterical Jew.” And then he broke our contract.
Strengthens my point that people nowadays often use “Israel” or “Zionist”, while thinking “a Jew.” But, when they’re pushed, the mask slips and a “hysterical Jew” comes out.
Clarissa, may be, you’ll be interested to write about the issue. From what Yascha Mounk has written, I have an impression that today’s Germans do have some problems. How can both peoples move into the future, without defining “themselves as the descendants of victims or oppressors”?
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Here – results of a poll among Americans about Israell-Gazan conflict:
Older Americans were much likelier to say Israel’s actions were justified: 55 percent of those over 65, 53 percent of those between 50 and 64, 36 percent of those 30-49 and just 25 percent of those 18-29.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.607224
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\\ The US as a state only gives this aid to Israel because if the Jewish millionaires don’t give money to the politicians’ electoral campaigns, these politicians will not feel as good.
What about USA strategic interests in the Middle East? It helps other countries too, w/o rich Jews. How is what you say different from “powerful Israeli lobby” theory, which you disagreed with on this blog before?
Just seen on Israeli news site an article about Nipsters – new, ‘cool,’ environmentalist and vegan … German neo-Nazis.
hip, vegan neo-Nazis … attempt to slide into debates where young people wouldn’t expect them, and then sell their politics as a palatable outlet. “They use subjects like globalization and animal protection as entry points, and then offer a very simple worldview that makes complex subjects very easy to understand,” says Rafael. “Of course, in the end, it’s always about racism and anti-Semitism and nationalism.” The danger … is that extreme-right positions might quietly shift into the mainstream.
http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/heil-hipster-the-young-neo-nazis-trying-to-put-a-stylish-face-on-hate-20140623
A long, curious article.
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“How is what you say different from “powerful Israeli lobby” theory”
– I feel like people are being willfully obtuse in this thread and I don’t know why. How is it not clear from what I said that I am talking about citizens of the US, not citizens of Israel giving political contributions???
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Clarissa, previously you’ve written
There Is No Israel Lobby
Do you think a few rich Jews would prevent America from leaving Israel, if we stopped helping real American interests? Or if American public’s opinion changed?
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I insist that there is no Israel lobby. I also insist that there is a well-known and completely legitimate practice of a country’s citizens participating in the political process within their own country.
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“Do you think a few rich Jews would prevent America from leaving Israel, if we stopped helping real American interests? Or if American public’s opinion changed?”
– This is not even remotely relevant to what is being discussed. The Jewish donors in questions will then simply send their money directly to Israel. Which is their unassailable right because it’s their money.
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