The most hilarious headline I have read in months:
He requires them to volunteer and commands them to be spontaneous. Yes, that’s what volunteering is all about: being coerced into doing stuff under the threat of losing your job.
After you stop laughing, though, consider the implications of this approach:
Marcus Lemonis, host of CNBC’s The Profit, knows how important volunteering is. He values it so much, in fact, that he mandates every single one of his employees volunteer at least 32 hours every year.
Why? His response is simple. “Once you begin the process [of volunteering], you become addicted to it,” says Lemonis. “What I heard back from employees was: ‘You changed my marriage!’ ‘You saved my life!'”
Volunteering builds character. And for Lemonis, character is defined by three traits: “Humility, accessibility and transparency.”
This millionaire believes that he has the right to dispose of his employees’ free time. This is the time he isn’t paying them for but they are still obligated to spend it the way he considers cute. He is convinced that it is up to him to manage their marriages, organize their private lives, and mold their personalities. I have no doubt that he considers himself a very good person while he does this shit.
People who do this stuff – bosses, supervisors, employers, professors, etc. – need to be told that their behavior is disgusting. This is not a sign of them being highly evolved as human beings. It is a sign of them emptying the sewers of their diseased psyche onto their fellow human beings. And there is nothing cute about that.
We can all collectively do something about this unhealthy practice: when somebody proudly shares these or similar ideas with us, all we need to do is react with visible shock and disgust.
P.S. If anybody uses the words “serfdom” or “slavery” in the comments, I will ban them. It’s because of you, you melodramatic whiner, that nobody can have a serious discussion of anything any longer. Shit doesn’t have to be “just like the Holocaust” or “just like slavery” to stink.
P.P.S. I hope this post hasn’t messed with anybody’s holiday cheer. I’ve been making inhuman efforts not to write any angry posts for two weeks but my patience is wearing thin. I might not resist until New Year’s.
Clarissa's Blog 
If he paid them for ‘volunteering’ (that is declare X number of hours his employees are paid for must be spent at volunterring activities) that would be cool.
It might be a nightmare in terms of insurance though.
As it is, he’s just a self-righteous dick.
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“If he paid them for ‘volunteering’ (that is declare X number of hours his employees are paid for must be spent at volunterring activities) that would be cool.”
I feel like he is trying to impose his morality (“volunteering is good!”) onto other people. And that is not his place. Why not just donate this money to a charity without involving the employees at all?
Although, of course, paying for it is better than not paying for it.
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If it’s made clear to the potential employee that part of their job duties would include spending a few hours a month in a soup kitchen (or whatever) then a person who’s ideologically opposed can choose to not work there.
I would be against foisting this on employees who signed up without it, but I see no problem if they take the job knowing it will involve spending time in such …. ac.tivvv.iteeezz.
All employers try to impose their morality on employees to a greater or lesser degree.
But, this guy at present is still a real dick.
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“But, this guy at present is still a real dick.”
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Agree that it should be paid hours. However, if it is, why do you object to him imposing his morality? (now it is a matter of degree of course). In general, I think the best organizations stand for something (other than making money alone), and if you really believe in making the world a better place (or at a minimum just helping the community you are in), then that certainly is “your morality”. Why is that so objectionable clarissa? Now I agree shouldn’t be “religious volunteering” as that would be a bridge too far. Very curious actually because as I am growing my company / startup I intend or am at least very seriously considering 4-8 hours per month of something like this. would be a HUGE team moral / purpose builder.
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“However, if it is, why do you object to him imposing his morality?”
“Very curious actually because as I am growing my company / startup I intend or am at least very seriously considering 4-8 hours per month of something like this. would be a HUGE team moral / purpose builder.”
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“Very curious actually because as I am growing my company / startup I intend or am at least very seriously considering 4-8 hours per month of something like this. would be a HUGE team moral / purpose builder.”
In what form would that be a HUGE team moral / purpose builder? I’ve never known anyone whose morals were built by being openly degraded.
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“In what form would that be a HUGE team moral / purpose builder? I’ve never known anyone whose morals were built by being openly degraded.”
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“Back in the USSR, this created generations of the most cynical, disaffected, indifferent workers ever.”
Yes, that was also true in the satellite states, the generation of my parents was like that indeed.
“I had no idea Soviet methods of organizing labor would be so popular in the US.”
It’s interesting that you mention this, because I experience the same thing in Britain. I try to find the reasons, because it’s really hard for me to understand this. Is it possible that people who were never forced to live in communism build a very similar system on their own, voluntarily? I mean we used to learn that communism was superior to capitalism, and capitalism necessarily lead to communism. I’ve never thought that I would ever ask this question but what if it was really true? I don’t find it superior myself, but what if that is the system which is “organically” resulted from capitalism? (I still hope it can’t be true.)
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\ I intend or am at least very seriously considering 4-8 hours per month of something like this.
I have 4 questions:
// I think the best organizations stand for something (other than making money alone)
Can you give examples? I don’t know what FaceBook stands for, except spying on people and selling their private information. And it is one of the best companies since it makes tons of money, as intended. What about Google or Blogger, the site we are at now?
\ or at a minimum just helping the community you are in
After reading Clarissa’s posts on the nation state, I immediately thought: “Which community? Hasn’t the time of a company tied to a specific community already passed?”
For instance, if I work in a firm in one city / town, while living in another, where is “the local community,” except defining community as citizens of the same state? Even then people from other USA states may work there.
\ they will be too terrified to say it to your face but behind your back they will vilify you.
I agree with Clarissa. That’s what I would’ve felt.
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“I agree with Clarissa. That’s what I would’ve felt.”
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Ok. Replying to this comment, but I see that there are a BUNCH! First, I do appreciate all the responses. Its literally shocking to me (and I don’t mean that in an insulting way, I am genuinely taking this feedback as I consider my future plans).
A) They would be paid for these activities (which I guess to some degree you can question if that is volunteering. But I think it still classifies as that).
B) The rough overview of the program would be 1 or 2 times a month on either a Thursday or Friday (day could be open.. but I favor the end of the week), we would have 2-3 organizations that we would volunteer / support. The exact options would be selected by the team. Now I may select 4 or 5 options which I think are in line with what I define as my company’s values, but definitely would be feedback from the team. One example of a program that I support is Junior Achievement and similar iniiatives (they have community members talk about economic / financial lessons and issues with k-12 students). I very heavily favor education / knowledge based initiatives, in particularly disadvantaged areas, as it is my core belief that financial knowledge and economic opportunity are the single most important thing to addressing inequality in our world (it is a financial planning and guidance community and company I am launching).
C. I am not frankly aware of special insurance that would be needed, but if they were to somehow be injured workers comp and the like would likely attach and I am fine with that
D. In terms of my involvement I was involved in middle school going to an inner city school to help 2nd graders with reading. In college for two years I worked and tried to help stand up a group that focused on college preparation for a rural school with minimal students who had parents who had gone to college. During an investment banking internship I explicitly was able to reorganize my schedule to work in an inner city disadvantaged area to help provide basic financial education for 12 weeks and designed new curriculum material. These are some of the ways I have been involved. I am no mother Theresa and am not trying to appear as a do-gooder / showy type. My point being my passion to my core for education and particularly of the financial and business type is the reason I have left very high paying jobs to launch what I believe tto be a world changing company (every entrepreneur hopefully believes this.. I just hope to make it happen) 🙂
With a little more context behind what I have described I am curious if still near unanimous opposition to integrate ths as part of the job… a paid part with volunteerism at its core?
Thanks for any feedback.
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matt, I answered you below since when people continue to reply to the same comment, the lines of the text become shorter and shorter, and it’s hard to read.
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The dictionary defines the word “a volunteer” as ” a person who performs a service willinglyand without pay.”
Let’s stop playing games here and say honestly that you are not discussing volunteering at all. You are discussing ways of forcing people to do things they are neither qualified nor interested in doing. You’ve got agree that this plan sounds bizarre.
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Matt, your intentions are clearly good, but the method you want to achieve your goal is a little bit… hmmm… okay I don’t want to insult you as you really seem to be a compassionate and caring person, but it’s a little bit stinky. As a fellow startup owner let me explain this a little bit better:
For me, healthy lifestyle has (almost) always been very important. I (almost) never eat junk food, I do sports, I’ve never been overweight, my blood pressure has always been low etc. I genuinely believe that someone who leads a healthy lifestyle is also more successful professionally, and let’s say I want to include this view into my company’s culture, as I think being healthy also improves the morals of the whole team, and sports are also team-building activities, etc. So is it okay if:
Would you like to work for me? For exapmle if you were an excellent and hardworking professional, but also an overweight smoker who can’t even walk 5 miles? Would you find the compulsory jogging team building? (Sorry if I was rude, I just wanted to cast light on the question from a different aspect.)
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No not rude at all. I appreciate the perspective. I guess there are a few things which come to mind. First, I think you have every right to do that, but as you say I probably / might not want to work for you. Second, I guess I feel like my supposed volunteering requirement is less invasive. You are getting paid, and its not really requiring lifestyle changes. Now I get that all work to some degree is fungible, and vast majority of my employees will be non-hourly, so obviously I would have to make a concerted effort that these “paid volunteer” hours don’t just become extra work. I appreciate the perspectives.
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Yes. I would hate this too Matt. I think El is asking great questions. I have a couple more for you:
1) How does coerced volunteering build a team?
2) What is the importance of team building? As long as everyone shows up to work and does their job, why should you care about they feel about one another?
For what it’s worth, I honestly can’t think of any team building exercise that I have ever enjoyed or that accomplished much of anything. The way to build a good team? Have great working conditions: good benefits, good salary, generous vacation/leave time. If employees are healthy, well-rested, well-compensated and feel like their time and expertise is valued, then they will in turn be more loyal to the company, to the brand, and to one another.
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“For what it’s worth, I honestly can’t think of any team building exercise that I have ever enjoyed or that accomplished much of anything.”
“Have great working conditions: good benefits, good salary, generous vacation/leave time. If employees are healthy, well-rested, well-compensated and feel like their time and expertise is valued, then they will in turn be more loyal to the company, to the brand, and to one another.”
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Matt: my belief in making the world a better place is satisfied by investing my money, time and effort in causes of my choosing. This volunteering-as-job thing, even if paid, and even if one gets to choose the thing one volunteers for, messes with that. Perhaps I live in a high-income Western country and have a well-paying job and consider that the best way to improve the world is invest money in anti-malaria efforts in Africa, for example. In comparison with the lives I can save thusly, a few hours a month of local volunteering would be pointless busywork. If said pointless busywork is dictated by my boss, then yes, it would hugely improve my cohesion with the rest of the team since no matter how little we had in common, we’d still hate his guts over this. You don’t get to volunteer other people, even if you pay them.
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“Matt: my belief in making the world a better place is satisfied by investing my money, time and effort in causes of my choosing.”
“If said pointless busywork is dictated by my boss, then yes, it would hugely improve my cohesion with the rest of the team since no matter how little we had in common, we’d still hate his guts over this. You don’t get to volunteer other people, even if you pay them.”
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Sort of relevant: Why volunteering is not always the best use of time
Our mission while at the orphanage was to build a library. Turns out that we, a group of highly educated private boarding school students were so bad at the most basic construction work that each night the men had to take down the structurally unsound bricks we had laid and rebuild the structure so that, when we woke up in the morning, we would be unaware of our failure. It is likely that this was a daily ritual. Us mixing cement and laying bricks for 6+ hours, them undoing our work after the sun set, re-laying the bricks, and then acting as if nothing had happened so that the cycle could continue.
Basically, we failed at the sole purpose of our being there. It would have been more cost effective, stimulative of the local economy, and efficient for the orphanage to take our money and hire locals to do the work, but there we were trying to build straight walls without a level.
A similar inefficiency can be expected of local efforts because the entire exercise is about “team cohesion” and “the CEO’s image” rather than helping people.
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“Basically, we failed at the sole purpose of our being there. It would have been more cost effective, stimulative of the local economy, and efficient for the orphanage to take our money and hire locals to do the work, but there we were trying to build straight walls without a level.”
“each night the men had to take down the structurally unsound bricks we had laid and rebuild the structure so that, when we woke up in the morning, we would be unaware of our failure. It is likely that this was a daily ritual. Us mixing cement and laying bricks for 6+ hours, them undoing our work after the sun set, re-laying the bricks, and then acting as if nothing had happened so that the cycle could continue”
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And don’t hold back on the angry posts…. unless you’re chicken…. cluck cluck cluck cluck!
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🙂 🙂 🙂
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\ my patience is wearing thin. I might not resist until New Year’s.
I don’t mind angry stuff now, but wanted to ask whether you will post some sunny things in the period 30-2.1.15, and not angry posts? Otherwise, your blog will observe Christmas but not our Soviet Tradition (with a capital “T”) of The New Year. 🙂
\ “What I heard back from employees was: ‘You changed my marriage!’ ‘You saved my life!’”
How many of those employees are lying through their teeth out of fear and desire to please the boss? If he feels free to force his employees to work for free, he probably feels free to be a hard boss in other ways and hates being contradicted. I bet any employee who would refuse “volunteering” would find himself fired pretty fast.
// And for Lemonis, character is defined by three traits: “Humility, accessibility and transparency.”
Those are traits he wants to see in his employees. And, ironically, doesn’t have himself.
“Humility” = “Know who is the boss and behave in a somewhat obsequious manner.”
By servile I mean подобострастный; льстивый. (Wanted to clarify since it has other meanings too).
Strengthens my feeling that he doesn’t take any disagreement well and would fire anybody “too selfish to volunteer” in a heartbeat. Can’t let “bad” people hurt the morality of the firm … or allow insubordination.
“transparency” — To whom and about what?
“accessibility” — The same question as in “transparency.” At the job and regarding issues connected to the job, yes. But after the job? What if I don’t want to be accessible to everybody?
\ If anybody uses the words “serfdom” or “slavery” in the comments, I will ban them.
Can I say that it reminded me of Soviet “volunteering” and of your discussions of the collapse of the nation state? In the FSU, the state ruled over people’s lives (it does NOT equal slavery, obviously).
Now, with the collapse of the safety net of a nation state, private companies, not the state, seem to be the most powerful agents and they feel free to demand from employees much more than before in return for salary. (I talk only about the first world states here.)
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“I don’t mind angry stuff now, but wanted to ask whether you will post some sunny things in the period 30-2.1.15, and not angry posts? Otherwise, your blog will observe Christmas but not our Soviet Tradition (with a capital “T”) of The New Year. ”
“Now, with the collapse of the safety net of a nation state, private companies, not the state, seem to be the most powerful agents and they feel free to demand from employees much more than before in return for salary. (I talk only about the first world states here.)”
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\ You are right! I cannot betray my culture! Smiley, cutesy posts from now on!
No, not from now on! 🙂 I asked only about the dates 30-2.1.15.
Right now angry posts are great too, from my pov.
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// It might be a nightmare in terms of insurance though.
I haven’t thought about that, but if he is that moral person, his company should pay to provide insurance for workers during their ‘volunteering’ hours. Otherwise, it’s glaring hypocrisy, which wouldn’t be surprising. Pity the toothless journalist hasn’t asked this question. Or any other hard questions.
When I was at school, we visited a huge high-tech company and what I heard frightened me away from high-tech for good: “we are like family, our employees and their families go on organized trips in their free time.”
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“When I was at school, we visited a huge high-tech company and what I heard frightened me away from high-tech for good: “we are like family, our employees and their families go on organized trips in their free time.””
And I also know a company where the entire team sat in a hot tub together half-naked to promote the company spirit (wink, wink*.) But these were all very young people and they were into the activity.
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This was really common at my old job, it wasn’t in a “volunteering is good for you” spirit, just that we were always assumed to have free time/nothing better to do when one of our sister organizations needed unpaid labour for larger events. We were all students, so that wasn’t true, but try telling that to the boss. I was so glad when I left it behind and stopped letting myself be talked into doing these stints because they “needed” me.
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Luckily you could easily get rid of your voluntary work addiction :-).
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Reader Aglaonika, voluntary commenter of Clarissasblog.com, knows how important volunteering is. She values it so much, in fact, that she offers Marcus Lemonis the generous opportunity to volunteer in her flat at least 32 hours every year. Mr Lemonis can even choose from different challenging tasks like toilet-cleaning, shoe-polishing, floor-mopping, carpet-hoovering and bathtub-scrubbing.
Why? her response is simple. “Once you begin the process [of volunteering], you become addicted to it,” says Aglaonika. “What I’d like to hear back from Mr Lemonis is: ‘You changed my marriage!’ ‘You saved my life!’”
Volunteering builds character. Humility, accessibility and transparency. Reader Aglaonika is so generous that she offers to publish accessible photos about the humble millionaire’s cheerful voluntary work to make his selfless act transparent to the whole world.
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“Reader Aglaonika, voluntary commenter of Clarissasblog.com, knows how important volunteering is. She values it so much, in fact, that she offers Marcus Lemonis the generous opportunity to volunteer in her flat at least 32 hours every year. Mr Lemonis can even choose from different challenging tasks like toilet-cleaning, shoe-polishing, floor-mopping, carpet-hoovering and bathtub-scrubbing.”
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If he does a good job in my flat, maybe I can outsource him to you and to other readers so you can also help him build his humble and accessible character.
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“If he does a good job in my flat, maybe I can outsource him to you and to other readers so you can also help him build his humble and accessible character.”
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“I’m sure many of his employees detest him – and the idiot doesn’t even realize it.”
Yeah, me too. Many of them would betray him for a very small amount of money (or even for free) at the first opportunity. And he thinks his employees “agree” with him because they like his generous personality. “You saved my life”… blah blah blah… how can someone be that stupid?
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Would a Randian find mandatory volunteering abhorrent because free labor is abhorrent (although in this case, Lemonis says his employees can volunteer during work hours and be paid), or applaud a superior man’s* structuring of his company’s time (He’s the boss and creative spark therefore what he values all of his workers must value)? :p
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Haven’t you seen in the video how disgustingly he shamed his audience? The small business owners who can’t necessarily afford to “donate” their stuff’s voluntary work to organizations? He lectured them in a way that made me want to puke. Haven’t you heard how he talked about the people who worked for him? As if they were unimportant toys who can be easily thrown away (he said “I can fire you at any time.” – how disgusting is that?). This is power abuse (which is not something that a person with at least a bit of character affords to himself or herself), and also not really good for employee-engagement. He has the right to “structure his company’s time”. He doesn’t have the right to structure his employees’ personalities and value systems. Stalin also found out the concept of Gulag (where people also worked “voluntarily”) to shape his subordinates’ personalities and value systems. That’s something that dictators and oppressors do.
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Okay, finally I realized your comment was irony. It seems I ate too many Christmas cakes, and lost my ability to understand nuances.
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“Stalin also found out the concept of Gulag (where people also worked “voluntarily”) to shape his subordinates’ personalities and value systems. ”
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Even long after Stalin there were still Subbotniki.
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“Even long after Stalin there were still Subbotniki.”
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They are still used by employers in Kyrgyzstan to get free labor as well.
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Problems I have with mandatory volunteering:
1) If I decide to volunteer, why should my boss benefit from the halo effect of my volunteerism?
2) The boss decides what’s worthy of being called volunteerism. Am I not giving back to the community when I volunteer at a cultural organization of my choice? Why is it that people who volunteer through their church get to be considered good citizens by all and sundry but if I volunteer through my temple I am not? Or what if my boss thinks Susan G. Komen is awesome and Planned Parenthood is immoral and I want to volunteer at Planned Parenthood (or vice versa)?
All of these alleged spiritual benefits disappear once volunteering is transactional. My high school had mandatory volunteer requirements and the great majority of people exceeded them (as did I), but I do not feel that I became a better person for it. I did not become addicted to volunteering. If I volunteer for an organization so I can build contacts and job skills (which many job advice columnists recommend), I’m still hoping to get something out of it.
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“Volunteering” is always transactional in some way, that’s why the word itself is an oxymoron, and can be only used in a satirical context.
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In the same vein as PJ O’Rourke’s infamous observation that empowerment comes from the barrel of a gun, being “spontaneous” in a workplace along similar lines might make for an extreme team-bonding exercise in which the survivors are happy they’re still alive.
“Oh look, Crazy Charlie brought his M16 to work … I wonder what he’s going to do with THAT.”
[ahem]
If you’re ideologically opposed to volunteering, why not volunteer to undermine the organisation you’re supposed to be volunteering for?
Think of the joy you can bring into the world by undermining social justice warriors, for instance … 🙂
Remember, insecure management wants you to drink the Kool-Aid along with everyone else, but that doesn’t mean you can’t dump it out when nobody’s looking and substitute your own fruit juice …
“But you were supposed to be helping them!”
“I did — I helped their organisation cease to exist.”
“I’m going to fix you — I’m going to send you over to the Boy Scouts for volunteering!”
Six weeks later, the entire troop has their Improvised Munitions badge. 🙂
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Yeah, I agree with that analysis. There’s a certain point at which you have to stop adapting to the world and make it adapt to you.
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KEEP CALM
AND
TAKE CONTROL OF EVENTS
🙂
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If I just behave naturally, things seem to change around me.
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“What we call natural is just a system of artifice that predates ours” . – Rafael Chirbes.
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But our terms of reference are not the same…
I did not mean “behave according to nature”, but rather “behave unselfconsciously”.
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I watched Marcus Lemonis’s talk and he made an impression of a very unpleasant person. Also, when he asked employers to share with employees whether company is making or losing money to promote employees’ loyalty, I haven’t understood the logic. My first thought was “great, if workers see the company is consistently losing money, it will be a sign for them to start searching for a job elsewhere before they are fired.”
Not sure if I have a wrong disloyal approach, but in my defence: a company can fire one at any time, it’s not a family or anything, if it isn’t loyal to me – why should I be loyal to it? Isn’t workers’ (one sided) loyalty against the logic of capitalism?
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“My first thought was “great, if workers see the company is consistently losing money, it will be a sign for them to start searching for a job elsewhere before they are fired.””
That’s a good first thought :-). Only a complete idiot would share confidential financial information like that with employees.
“Isn’t workers’ (one sided) loyalty against the logic of capitalism?”
You are right, loyalty only works until it’s mutual. Employee engagement is even more important than customer engagement. Successful employee engagement -> successful customer engagement. It only works that way. Genuinely engaged employees are the key of a successful business (and I don’t talk about coerced voluntary work here :-), or moral lecturing of adults).
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\ Genuinely engaged employees are the key of a successful business (and I don’t talk about coerced voluntary work here :-), or moral lecturing of adults).
Are there any tips on how to achieve this, except good work conditions (= both money and respectful treatment)?
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matt, but what makes you think your workers will be good at working with teens / children, if their jobs will not be connected to this professional field? Being a school teacher (and I have many in my family 🙂 ) is a job with a special set of skills. This is not “take a broom and sweep this floor” type of thing, which everybody, who is healthy, may do. Talking with students done by disinterested workers who have no knowledge about “economic / financial lessons and issues” or no capacity / desire to transmit this knowledge may even be damaging to the teens. Btw, won’t teens understand the workers are forced to volunteer and react to this in some way?
// I very heavily favor education / knowledge based initiatives, in particularly disadvantaged areas, as it is my core belief
If your real goal is to do X good for the community, what about hiring a person for the specific job of working with teens at risk or something? Hiring one professional is better than forcing unwilling amateurs and won’t cost more.
What about donating money to local programs you support, instead of spending it on forcing workers to volunteer?
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“Talking with students done by disinterested workers who have no knowledge about “economic / financial lessons and issues” or no capacity / desire to transmit this knowledge may even be damaging to the teens.”
Yeah, and on the long term many paid teachers and youth workers will lose their jobs, because they were replaced by the coerced “volunteers” hired by moralistic employers.
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Good point, aglaonika! Why not just let everybody do what they are qualified to do? If all of us just do our own job as best as we can do and try to grow as professionals, this will already be a great contribution to society. I remember how my university tried to coerce me to go to the cemetery to pick up the needles left there by drug addicts. I have no idea why this should be a better use of my time ad an academic than if I stay home and read another book. Obviously, I didn’t go.
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As with others who have commented, I really appreciate the responses. I am scratching my head here pretty hard core and at least reconsidering this part of my company culture and plan. I actually thought most people would love it (and many of my friends / former co-workers have in passing thought it was in interesting idea). You could be right that people would be disinterested, but I really think that any of my employees that want to embark on the difficulty of a high-growth venture startup have to have a passion in their core for finance and the ability to translate these skills to actionable plans that our paying (adult customers) will want. If that premise is correct, I thought / still think many or most of them will love the ability to have the creative outlet of getting to do it in situations where the current economics of it will not work (either schools or disadvantaged communities).
In regards to the teacher / school angle, my sister and one of my best friends are teachers and I have insane respect for the profession. I would never hope or try to replace teachers on core pedagogy and subjects, but few teachers are masters of finance topics (and even though we would be going over more basic concepts, being a finance master makes it much easier to do so). This is a highly complimentary activity, which I can’t see how it would possibly replace teachers jobs as other commenters have said, because this would entail probably 2 1 hour sessions per month (allowing one person to help perhaps up to 4 class for a total of 8 hours) per month.
Last thought / question. What if the option was for an employee to spend 8 of their hours per month on this, or spend the 8 hours just doing normal work duties? How would you and the others respond to that? I feel like that would still be in the spirit of which I am hoping / imagining of doing it, but wouldn’t force those who really say aren’t comfortable around kids etc.?
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““Now, with the collapse of the safety net of a nation state, private companies, not the state, seem to be the most powerful agents and they feel free to demand from employees much more than before in return for salary.”
That’s the single most insightful comment on this thread (maybe of the week). It’s not a new idea (I first encountered the idea of private companies taking over state functions back in the early 1970s). But it’s applied in a relevant situation where I had not applied it.
Now I’m thinking…. since phasing out the nation state means retrenchments in welfare and social benefits (like publicly funded universities) traditionally provided by nation states maybe this guy is just ahead of the curve and people here are caught up in applying old-fashioned models (like subbotniki) that aren’t relevant here.
There’s only a certain degree that the state can withdraw from social welfare functions without some really nasty stuff happening (see any third world country where the state does not provide social services). Social services as part of a privately employed person’s workload might be the only way for them to still be provided.
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Yes cliff, that’s an idea I’ve been also considering for a while. But I prefer the idea of social enterprises, not compulsory volunteering for other organizations. I would choose that route if I had the financial opportunities. In fact, that is a long term goal of mine, however I’m still quite far of the accomplishment.
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The future is being formed today, by us. We can very easily collectively shame such people into complete submission. It can very easily be done. This is an important time because new patterns are being set. And they are being set by us. The good news is that we can all participate in molding these new patterns.
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Cliff. Yep. I think that is partially what Leonis is doing and a little of the idea I hold. Perhaps that is bad, and I certainly get that it can come across as “demanding” or “imposing morals” on others. I think as long as sufficient feedback from employees is genuinely allowed then the downside is limited. 100% get if you don’t support a specific cause etc., but if you are paid to have a wide variety of outlets to support charity / social initiatives and choose not to then I do feel that says something about your values and without trying to be arrogant isn’t that a business owner’s right to not to work with those people? Just like it is 100% their right to not work for mine / other companies. And aglaonika, while I do like the idea of social enterprises in theory, what often has occurred to many that I am aware of is they end up not generating enough economic activity to support a robust operation. If you can say make $70k for an operation that has “mandatory” volunteerism or a social enterpirse and make $35k and struggle to afford your lifestyle I think many (perhaps most?) would choose the former. And by allowing those to choose that option to have a meaningful pathway to help others is a net good I believe.
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“I think as long as sufficient feedback from employees is genuinely allowed then the downside is limited. 100% get if you don’t support a specific cause etc., but if you are paid to have a wide variety of outlets to support charity / social initiatives and choose not to then I do feel that says something about your values and without trying to be arrogant isn’t that a business owner’s right to not to work with those people?”
“If you can say make $70k for an operation that has “mandatory” volunteerism”
“And by allowing those to choose that option to have a meaningful pathway to help others is a net good I believe.”
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Matt, I admit that currently I’m not a big expert of social economy, mainly because I don’t have enough time to educate myself about it, but I see more and more economic (marketing, PR, sales, innovation etc.) potential in social enterprises – especially in the knowledge-based industries. There are very interesting studies on the subject from the best research universities, I hope I will have enough time soon to read more about it.
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\ Social services as part of a privately employed person’s workload might be the only way for them to still be provided.
Why would business owners pay their workers to provide social services? A few may, like matt, but I doubt most would be ready to spend money on that.
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Because if the state isn’t going to provide services then sooner or later you’re going to have a lot more homeless and/or hungry people around and an uptick in the sort of activities that desperate people engage in like gangs and lots of other things.
Privatising things like welfare and public sanitation might be the only way to keep them going and governments might start mandating such programs as they divest themselves of them.
It’s similar to how passport control has largely been privatized in Schengen. If you fly from Munich to Warsaw you still have to show a passport or id. But instead of a state employee, a representative of the airline or an airport employee or two see them or you don’t get on the plane. There are still state workers around the edges for problem cases but the bulk of non-problematic passenger control has been handed over to private hands.
Learning what documents are necessary and how to spot potential problems are presumably part of the training ticket people get now.
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Still usually cheaper for govt to pick up the burden than a privatised corp.
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A great comment, save for the homeless and the hungry. Nobody goes hungry in developed societies. Marginalization will not have this Dickensian flavor in the new state – form.
But yes, complete privatization of everything.
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Because it’s entertaining, plus it makes them feel self-righteous. Throwing crumbs to beggars has always been a popular pastime.
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Now, with the collapse of the safety net of a nation state, private companies, not the state, seem to be the most powerful agents and they feel free to demand from employees much more than before in return for salary.
Minus the nation state, people have been bemoaning this since the 1980s. This is an extension of the company* trend of retracting real tangible benefits (like pensions and health insurance) while phasing in measures designed to improve “morale” and “team spirit” in its place. For the most part it doesn’t work: Reviews of Lemonis’ company
*It’s an American trend, AFAIK, since the same companies don’t provide health insurance in other countries.
**Health insurance and pensions are science fiction for lower and middle tier workers under 30 and 401(k)s are becoming that too. These people get propagandized the most during their working hours. (Walmart is a great example of this.)
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“Minus the nation state, people have been bemoaning this since the 1980s. ”
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\ Because it’s entertaining, plus it makes them feel self-righteous. Throwing crumbs to beggars has always been a popular pastime.
The thing is that beggars have remained beggars and lived poorly, with their children usually inheriting the parents’ (lack of) status / class. F.e. in Victorian England.
I don’t get why you are so sure that a few self-righteous rich will give enough to let poor people live normally. A few religious fanatics say “the state shouldn’t help the poor, the Church will help to the deserving.” In your interpretation, businessmen will help and help sufficiently to let everybody be happy. I can’t believe that. Seems like it would lead to a lot of suffering.
Also, which % of the population will be the mobile rich? Most people don’t work in high-tech. Looks like somebody like me won’t have this chance. 😦
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“In your interpretation, businessmen will help and help sufficiently to let everybody be happy. I can’t believe that.”
Businesses still need consumers, and consumers will need money to spend money.
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Businesspeople are already doing it. Who do you think pays the taxes?
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“The thing is that beggars have remained beggars and lived poorly, with their children usually inheriting the parents’ (lack of) status / class. F.e. in Victorian England.”
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\ The parents’ status or class is of zero concern to anybody today, so let’s move on.
All this talk of “down with the compulsory education for children” and “poor students should study in their cars, real universities are for the rich” may lead somewhere, no?
If only children of the rich will be able to go to normal universities and get normal education, the parents’ (lack of) money may mean more than before. Especially, if even normal schools stop being free / accessible to a part of population.
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Money can get you there but can’t make you derive any benefit from it. Among the rich kids I went to high school with, the most successful one is wife number 3 to some nasty old guy in a Middle Eastern country. The rest are doing worse.
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\ Money can get you there but can’t make you derive any benefit from it.
But what if you don’t get there because parents lack money and a state stopped investing in education?
Also, you went to a weird school. 🙂
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I was made to “volunteer” during nursing school (they called it “service learning”) and that was bad enough.
We had our pick of different placements and hours. I did mine at a nursing home that would allow me to also bring my kids as volunteers (they were preteens). We fed elderly people who were unable to feed themselves.
I will never forget my older child trying to spoon feed a tiny elderly lady who was cursing like a sailor and trying to (very slowly) escape by backing away in her wheelchair, and my kid concentrating really hard on following her while trying not to spill the food from the spoon. Oddly enough, that kid has followed me into this crazy profession.
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