Since we started discussing immigration in the comments, I want to place the discussion in a separate thread. As everybody can imagine, the topic of immigration is of a great interest to me, a two-time immigrant veteran.
Sweden* tried to lure in immigrants in a variety of inventive ways but ultimately failed. The reasons for the failure are mostly two: the language and the closed, snobby, supercilious culture. Sorry, Swedes, but I’m hearing you are very unwelcoming towards visitors.
Since normal immigrants refuse to come on these conditions, Sweden is forced to bring in “refugees”. The only way to attract them is through payouts. And the result is not pretty.
Sweden is a country I’d never consider emigrating to because of the hatefulness of the locals and the system that is specifically set up to prevent talented, resourceful people (as opposed to rich, lazy locals**) to succeed. I have no interest in working as a dog only to keep the locals in their ridiculous social handouts. And that is the only reason why Sweden even wants immigrants: to take and take and take from them to keep afloat a system that is not working.
Refugees are being brought in (into Sweden and other Western European countries) precisely so that the women would stay at home, wrapped in their burqas, never leave the house, and procreate, creating crowds of future taxpayers. The last thing Sweden needs is women who will go out into the workplace or anywhere else. It already has such women. Sweden is trying to solve the problem of falling birthrates. Immigrant women who see their own worth as anything but an incubator on legs are an anathema to the Swedes.
What an immigrant wants and cherishes is an opportunity to integrate. But such an opportunity doesn’t exist without the effort on the part of the locals. You will only see an immigrant who makes an enormous effort to integrate if there is a chance such an effort will be met with reciprocity from the locals. The US is such a great destination for immigrants precisely because the locals do make an effort and it is quite easy to get integrated into the new society.
Immigrants also need the kind of economy where they will be able to ascend fast on the strength of their hard work and motivation. Equalizing economies are not attractive to immigrants because they are not seeing the fruits of their labor if most of what they make goes towards the taxes.
This is the new liquid world, remember? The success of every economy will hinge, to a significant degree, on whether it manages to attract the best, the most mobile (I don’t mean just physically, obviously), productive, motivated immigrants. And to lure us in, you need to create an attractive environment.
* As much as I love Quebec, I have to say that, while not nearly as extreme as Sweden, it has many of the same tendencies that make it frustrating to an immigrant to be there.
** Rich and lazy from an immigrant’s perspective. To themselves, they might look poor and hard-working.
Clarissa's Blog 
what country wasn’t invaded because of resources, and what country forces anyone to visit, ?
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We are discussing immigration and not invasions or forced visits.
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it’s all resource driven
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The semester hasn’t started yet and I’m not ready to decipher vague statements starting with “it’s all.” What is this “it”? And what’s the “all”?
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have you ever tried new zealand?
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No, but I’d be very interested in hearing from those who have.
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Ghana is quite welcoming of foreigners compared to Europe and especially Central Asia. But, I am not sure how the economics of skilled migration will play out in the future. Right now it looks liked skilled immigrants from Asia (China in particular), Europe, and other places accounts for 2.5% of the population.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Ghana
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I was about to ask you to write about this. Thanks!
I can’t understand why these countries would choose to invite muslim immigrants over, say, Indians or other Asians. Asians coming to the US to pursue graduate studies and then staying over to work has been a success, just to give one example. Why have european countries not copied this model? Wouldn’t it be nice to have the equivalent of the silicon valley in Germany or Sweden?
In India, especially among the middle class, about 95% of people who leave the country, go to the US. These are doctors, engineers, and other highly qualified professionals. The rest go to the UK, and only because they’re relatives of soldiers who served under the British during the world wars. Going anywhere else is unthinkable because of the extremely restrictive immigration policies of the rest of Europe. Sweden? Forget about it.
Why?
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“Wouldn’t it be nice to have the equivalent of the silicon valley in Germany or Sweden?”
That would be the heaven for me, but it will never happen.
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Stockholm’s Kista Centrum might qualify …
It’s not very big, but it’s significant enough within Sweden.
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Why?
Because the locals do not want the competition in the upper half of the labor market. And this is not only about not willing to share the material resources. European countries (or for those who are familiar with Quebec – also Quebec) are much more into preserving ethnic/linguistic/cultural identity than the US. Essentially, the locals do not want any kind of influential elites to be diluted with the carriers of foreign culture and/or mentality. And by extension they do not want their middle class to be diluted either.
Anyway, the ideal immigrant for the Europeans is the one who would not just integrate, but change his identity as much as possible, maybe “become holier than the Pope” in this respect, but not aspire to middle or upper class positions. Out of respect towards superior N-th generation locals, of course.
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In the US, it’s curious that Republicans are much more open and welcoming towards immigrants than the Democrats. It’s got to the point where I can easily guess how one votes based on how they react to me. It’s absolutely hilarious.
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Care to elaborate?
I haven’t really noticed a party breakdown in my personal interactions. I get weird condescension mixed with ignorance from people of all class levels. Of course, I get mistaken for all kinds of non-white ethnicities so that gets factored in. It’s funny to watch people dance from “you’re taking our jobs away” to “model minority” to “wait you know more than me?” in the same conversation. There’s a lot of mouthing the correct homilies but people’s groups tend to be closed off.
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I’ll publish a post on this tomorrow. This is a topic that is dear to my heart. 🙂
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“Anyway, the ideal immigrant for the Europeans is the one who would not just integrate, but change his identity as much as possible, maybe “become holier than the Pope” in this respect, but not aspire to middle or upper class positions. Out of respect towards superior N-th generation locals, of course.”
Yes, this is exactly what happens, and I agree with Clarissa that the so-called pc “liberals” are the worst. I call them Smiling Monkeys, and they just freak me out. I rarely meet such hypocrite, passive-aggressive people – and it was a complete shocker to me, as I held them in a really high esteem before. However as most immigrants are self-haters with low self-esteem and their hearts burn with the desire to cozy up to the “superior N-th generation locals” (almost) everybody finds what they need. The worst immigrant-haters (worse than the pc “liberals”) are the self-hating immigrants. They’re really unbelievable, and I think at least the 80% of Eastern European immigrants are like that. For example one of them told me in a disgusted voice that “Britain has become a country of immigrants” (so basically he was disgusted by himself). How can one be that stupid? Okay I know internalized oppression, but still…
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However as most immigrants are self-haters with low self-esteem and their hearts burn with the desire to cozy up to the “superior N-th generation locals” (almost) everybody finds what they need.
Hm. Unfortunately, I find myself within what you describe, which may be unnecessarily harsh. I am not an immigrant-hater, but being constantly reminded by the locals that i don’t belong is not helping my self-esteem.
I would say that if you really want to integrate, especially if you have kids, you cannot actually avoid dealing with Nth-generation locals. They most definitely give me a cold shoulder, but for my kids this is home, the only one they have, so if I want them to live like their friends, I have to interact with the friends’ parents, who most of the time wish I didn’t exist. (They are Smiling Monkeys indeed.) I tell myself that I have it better than most immigrants because I am white. My kid is swimming competitively and I really feel for the poor Indian and Chinese parents (only one family of each, among a sea of Caucasians) who are probably way more uncomfortable than I am.
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Sorry, if I was harsh. Usually I try to be less harsh and sometimes I just delete my very harsh comments on this blog before I post them, but I still have to improve (I grew up in a quite harsh background :-), and sometimes it’s hard to stop or even recognize). I didn’t intend to insult you, and I’m happy that you replied, because this way I can clarify that I didn’t talk about the same thing you mentioned in your comment.
When I mentioned “the desire to cozy up to the locals” I didn’t mean the direct interaction with them. I also have the subservient dumb immigrant face that I use when I find myself in a powerless situation – which doesn’t happen every day as I don’t have kids and I’m self-employed, so I’m in a lucky position from this aspect. We immigrants – as a power-deprived group – don’t have too much choice, and I wouldn’t mock anyone because of that including myself. That’s just natural self-defence in an unfortunate situation, and even I don’t like it, I don’t know anything better yet. Anyway, I’m aware that the whole subservient dumbness is just acting, sometimes when they leave I even make a curtsy as if I were in a stage.
I talked about how the self-hating immigrants communicate among each other. Most of them cozy up to the locals, and consider themselves inferior, when we are among ourselves and no locals are present and sometimes we don’t even talk in English. And it’s not about the kids, or the jobs, or anything like that, but about their complete denial and unrecognized cognitive dissonance and [from here I deleted a very harsh thing :-D]. If I dare mention anything I don’t like here or have problems with they just try to shut me up with phrases like “You have to adapt.” or “If you don’t like it go away.” or “You wanted to come here, so don’t complain.” (these were literal quotes not exaggerations). They are like an SS officer, even worse than the local fascists. Even very intelligent and educated people tend to do this. Heck, my own partner did this, and he still wants to do this, just doesn’t dare because he doesn’t want me to go mad. I also have a strong cognitive dissonance in connection with my immigrant status, but I’m aware of it. My “only” problem I can’t talk to anyone about it, because others in the same shoes behave as the whole thing wouldn’t even exist. So you are not self-hating at all, because the essential characteristic of self-haters is denial, and you have a strong self-awareness. If you were a real self-hater you’d have just silently downvoted me.
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Well, I am afraid there is an additional dimension to immigrants adapting the “You have to adapt.” or “If you don’t like it go away.” or “You wanted to come here, so don’t complain.”position. Sorry to be harsh, but particularly in the case of Eastern Europeans (I am simply not familiar enough with the inner workings of Chinese of Indian societies with respect to IMmigration) this position is emanating from knowledge, conscious or subconscious, that these same East Europeans expect exactly this particular attitude from the immigrants into their own countries. Heck, they expect it from non-immigrant national minorities… In my own country they are trying to accomplish a glorious feat of “integrating” the Russian minority using the recipes developed in Germany for integrating Turkish immigrants… (Yes, I am aware of the history. But this approach is still ridiculous. Imagine the Francophones of Quebec trying to “integrate” Anglophone population – also the “imperial heritage” and descendants of former oppressors – using these German recipes…)
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@valter
So do you think this adaptation-obsession is mainly possessed by Eastern European immigrants, and less by the others? In our case it’s really an obsession, because we don’t have problems with integration in Western-Europe, as we arrive from a very similar cultural background, basically we look and behave the same way as them (except for our accents). The differences are subtle, not something spectactular, an outsider probably wouldn’t even notice them. But the self-hating immigrants I talked about want to obliterate even those (both from their own identities and from everyone else’s who is from the same background). Yes, maybe that’s true that we arrive from a homogenizing culture, and that’s why most of us have the inner desire to make everyone be exactly the same.
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I don’t know, the immigrant community that I’m most familiar with – these are people who came from Ukraine, Russia, Moldova – are not trying to integrate at all and seem very proud of not even making a tiny little effort in that direction. I know people who never leave the ghetto at all and are very happy. My own mother still hasn’t learned a word of English or French after 16 years in Quebec. And she isn’t planning to do so. They don’t have any Canadian friends. The only exception is when an immigrant marries a Canadian. Then his (it’s always a man since there is a shortage of women in Quebec and they are picky) silent presence is tolerated.
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—So do you think this adaptation-obsession is mainly possessed by Eastern European immigrants, and less by the others?
I do not know. I would suspect that this is a problem for people from any society placing high value on homogeneity and uniformity. So I would think this is more of a problem for the Chinese than for the Indians, for example. But I can only speculate.
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“In my own country they are trying to accomplish a glorious feat of “integrating” the Russian minority using the recipes developed in Germany for integrating Turkish immigrants”
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Clarissa, I am not cryptic at all, you probably just cannot believe it because it is so ridiculous. See, when Estonia regained independence, they had to decide what to do with the Russians who migrated within the Soviet Empire and ended up in Estonia (hence the parallels with Quebec Anglophones migrating within the British Empire, with the latter also being formed by force). Deporting all of them was logistically impossible and would cause a civil war. Granting them proportional shareholder status in modern Estonia was also deemed impossible as that would negate Estonia as Estonian state (with clear parallels to Israel the Jewish state paradigm) and to accept historical injustice. The “compromise” was found – to “let” the Russians stay, but to consider them an analog of the Gastarbeiter of the Old Europe. I am not inventing anything here, and not citing Kremlin propaganda. I participated in enough discussions to experience first-hand that questions “why can’t we allow local Russians X” are met literally with “but the Turkish in Germany are not allowed X”. People professionally involved in “integration of the Russians” study how to do that mostly in/from Germany and are literally using German templates. As well as Dutch templates of integrating immigrants from the Dutch West Indies. I am not joking. But politically it was a very smart move. Nobody in Europe, even the right-wing pro-Putin folks, will question somebody just following superior “European customs”…
This explains why I am extremely skeptical of Ukrainian government allowing Baltic advisers* anywhere close to forming Ukraine’s policies towards anything Russian.
*Think of that famous scandal with Estonian foreign minister’s report from Ukraine to the EU being intercepted by the Russians and parts ripped from it used in propaganda war. Instead of asking who lied and how much, one can question who made Estonian foreign minister some kind of an expert on Ukrainian affairs? Ukrainians did, buy openly discussing stuff with the foreign minister of a country whom they in turn want to emulate…
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valter07, thanks, that makes a lot of sense.
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It’s an absolute mystery to me. I seriously don’t understand who wouldn’t want Indian immigrants. It’s the most unproblematic, easily adapting, peaceful, and productive community I have seen.
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I’ve seen a fair number of Indian immigrants in southern Spain (round Malaga) where they presumably have branched out from Gibraltar and mostly run gold and jewelry stores largley catering to British tourists (I remember one was called ‘Don Lal’). I didn’t see them in Mallorca (much more German and Italian than British tourists).
I’m seeing more and more Indian (maybe Pakistanis) in Poland but I think a lot of them are marking time until they can skip further west and don’t want to put in the language effort needed to make a go of it here.
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I’m an immigrant who never wanted to emigrate in the first place. If that would have been my dream, I wouldn’t have emigrated at the age of 32, but much earlier. The two things I look for – and anyone who wants to attract me (if such a country exists at all) should consider: 1. let me live and work as a small business owner (which didn’t happen in my home country) 2. don’t use me as a scapegoat (which doesn’t happen in the country I live currently, however I’ve followed 100% of their rules). I don’t like Britain that much, but I like Scotland, so I’m currently okay with it, however I don’t want to remain here forever, because I won’t be able to get used to the role of the despised scapegoat on the long run. I’m still looking for a country where I can find these 2 things I mentioned above. Sweden will not be like that, and neither the other Scandinavian countries – with their taxation and welfare system they must be the hell for small business owners. I obviously won’t work my ass off to provide the kind of luxury I’ve never provided for myself or for any of my loved ones for middle-and upper class people who only see people like me as if we were disposable livestock.
My partner tries to persuade me for years about trying a Latin American country (he is in love with Latin America for a long time, and even worked there about half a year after he graduated from college), but I don’t know too much about it from a business point of view which is still important for me as that’s what I want to do (he says any of the LA countries would be okay to him, just choose one from them which is the best for the business and me). Maybe I should begin to educate myself about the region. Canada has currently a cool startup visa though which I most likely would get, but I’m not sure it would be so different to live there than in the UK, so I’m not sure it would be worth the hassle.
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Latin America is tricky. With my perfect Spanish and my profound understanding of the culture, I can spend two weeks in Latin America at most before needing psychiatric care. The sexism there is absolutely horrifying. I have no strategies of dealing with it on a long -term basis. It just isn’t something that an Eastern European woman can handle without growing rabid. Latin American women sincerely and passionately believe they are inferior and bask in the knowledge. And men humiliate women like they breathe. Yes, there are exceptions but they all emigrated. 🙂
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Nooooo. Until now I thought it could be a good solution for me. At home I always hear the glorification of the region. Are the more developed countries like Chile, Uruguay or Costa Rica also like that?
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” You will only see an immigrant who makes an enormous effort to integrate if there is a chance such an effort will be met with reciprocity from the locals. The US is such a great destination for immigrants precisely because the locals do make an effort ”
I think most USans treat immigrants (who are successfully integrating) a lot like converts to a new religion are treated by the faithful.
Conversely, Americans often don’t really know how to deal with visitors. A few years ago a student of mine did a work-travel thing in the states for the summer. Her employers were happy enough with her performance that they told her she “didn’t have to” go back to Poland that they’d help with the formalities of changing her visa (don’t know if that was possible).
She told them thanks but she wanted to go back home and relations got very frosty….
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Exactly the same thing happened to one of my friends about ten years ago. This must be a local custom :-).
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I don’t know about Sweden, but the situation in Switzerland seems to be very different. A large majority of the (substantial) immigration into Switzerland comes from the EU, refugees from overseas are only a relatively small contributor. These EU-nationals sometimes work in the service industry, like in tourism, but they also take on skilled jobs, in IT, medicine, science etc. So I would assume that if the Swedish economy needed skilled workers, they could easily get them from other countries like Italy, Germany etc. where wages are probably lower and social benefits are inferior, thanks to the free movement of people in the EU. Yes, if you are an immigrant who wants to start their own business Sweden is probably not the ideal place, but if you are a skilled worker from the EU, I don’t see what would stop people from moving there… so I am surprised that you say that Sweden has problems to attract skilled immigrants.
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Sweden doesn’t want skilled workers , is what I’m saying. Sweden wants people who will not work but will have lots and lots of children instead. Sweden especially doesn’t want skilled workers from the EU. How many children are they likely to have? One? Two? Maybe even none? How will that help with Sweden ‘ s problem?
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“Sweden wants people who will not work but will have lots and lots of children instead.”
Yeah, that’s true, but Sweden tries to solve its problem in a quite counterproductive way. One day in the future the Muslims – who are deliberately kept segregated, and therefore won’t adapt their values – will outnumber the local Swedish. And because Sweden is a democracy, the Muslims will vote for things they prefer. I hope the Swedes will enjoy the burqa and the new Islamic rules. Sweden doesn’t understand there’s no free lunch. Sooner or later they will pay the price of their lavish “Scandinavian state model” they want to keep so desperately.
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Yes, precisely, it’s an unsustainable model. And it’s not making anybody happy. They have very high suicide rates. Of course, the climate plays its role but it’s the way their society functions as well. It’s like a well-run, tightly organized and regulated, comfortable prison.
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A high-tech pink plush cage with invisible electric wires.
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Yeah, feminism is like that…nobody is happy.
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“Yeah, feminism is like that…nobody is happy.”
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“So I would assume that if the Swedish economy needed skilled workers …”
You would assume incorrectly.
There were plenty of refugees from various parts of the Middle East, with Iraqis being noticeable in parts of Stockholm. They weren’t doing skilled jobs — you’d run into some of them working as ticket takers on the Tunnelbana.
Sweden is not necessarily business friendly, especially to startups. A friend of mine in Stockholm wound up having to fight with the tax authorities because they wanted him simply to send in all the money he made with his startup, not a reasonably and legally defensible amount according to a tax schedule. He made the “mistake” of choosing to close a startup that was making less than he could make as a consultant for a multi-national consultancy.
Even Ikea was based in Luxembourg until the political climate changed to the point where it was worth repatriating portions of the company …
So actually, no. Jante Law seals the deal — it’s the law of the small town, and it affects everything from social relations to how crappy Swedish engineers and managers are to visiting professionals.
I wouldn’t want to start a company in Sweden. Perhaps Finland, perhaps Denmark, but not Sweden …
I definitely can think of some countries for IBCs that would be considerably nicer and friendlier to me and my bank accounts.
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“Sweden is not necessarily business friendly, especially to startups.”
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Yeah, a lot of countries have a weird racket going on, where not everything is as it might seem. Clarissa’s analysis is very, very good. The notion that the ideologues of the left and right like to maintain, that everything is just a mechanical or economic equation, misses out whole other dimensions that are socio-political or even psychological.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgxmVd3FgmY
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“The US is such a great destination for immigrants precisely because the locals do make an effort …”
This is not always true, and this has not always been true …
I’m reminded of the difference between the affluent Cubans who escaped to the United States and the stages that followed them, including the infamous “Marielitos”.
Sometimes you’re welcomed because you’re seen as having the “good Christian sense” of fleeing a wrecked society in the model of the flight from Gomorrah. Sometimes you’re welcomed because you’re bringing resources to the new country.
But much of the time, if the lumpen locals are thinking of you at all, they’re thinking that you “talk funny” …
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“But much of the time, if the lumpen locals are thinking of you at all, they’re thinking that you “talk funny” ”
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Here in the US people are even making efforts to ensure that I don’t feel lonely or left out of things during the local holidays that I don’t understand or celebrate.
Your locals sound different from my locals. Nobody gives a rat’s a$$ about including us in anything here. They are polite but ignore us.
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“Your locals sound different from my locals. Nobody gives a rat’s a$$ about including us in anything here. They are polite but ignore us.”
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Warning: boring wall of text.
Sweden used to both get and accept only productive immigrants, once upon a time. After WWII Sweden enjoyed a long economic boom and immigrants were working-class people from Finland, Yugoslavia, Italy and Greece, who were needed to do industrial jobs. A win-win situation.
Then came the 70’s oil shock, the boom ended, jobs were no longer plentiful, and immigration laws were tightened up. Swedish jobs were for Swedish workers. Refugees were not encouraged either, as late as 1989 undesirable asylum seekers were routinely shipped out as fast as they came.
But all began to change in the early 90’s. Sweden’s liberal People’s Party had made an extreme humanitarian asylum policy a central part of their platform, and in 1991 managed to get it adopted by the government, despite being a fairly minor party. (They had the swing votes in parliament, and other parties were willing to let them have their way because they had other priorities.) All successive governments have followed this policy, and it is now supported by the entire Swedish establishment. The policy has become a part of the Swedish self-image, they see themselves as a kind of humanitarian great power. Mere material concerns are less important than signalling your moral superiority: money is no object, failure is not an option.
The left can no longer accept any restrictions on asylum seekers because that would be racist. The right goes along, in part because they still have other priorities and in part because the Swedish welfare state will not survive this policy, and they were always bitterly opposed to it. It will not be possible to justify very heavy taxation, meant to provide social services, in a society that can no longer deliver those services because it will be overwhelmed by masses of unemployable people. The only opposition (the Sweden Democrats) is an unstable far-right populist party with nasty crypto-Nazis as their activist core.
So it goes.
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