The idiots who run away to join ISIS were a bone of contention in the recent Canadian election. Quite a few of these fools discovered that ISIS was not as entertaining as they thought and decided to return to Canada. The question arose as to what to do with them.
The Conservatives suggested stripping them of Canadian citizenship. This seems extremely reasonable because people get stripped of citizenship all the time, and for things far less serious than participating in a terrorist organization that engages in crimes against humanity. If I, for instance, was stripped of my Ukrainian citizenship for joining the Canadian state, it doesn’t seem out of place to remove the citizenship of those who join the Islamic State.
This idea, however, seemed unacceptable to the Liberals, and the voters ultimately supported them. Once again, nobody stopped to think how it would impact the rights of Canadian women to have running around a bunch of crazed criminals who have been members of an organization notorious for its record of raping and torturing women. It seems like this entire Canadian election was one big “Fuck you, women.”
What say you, readers? Should people who go to great lengths to join ISIS and who engage in God knows what kind of horrible acts on its behalf be allowed to come back and resume the citizenship of the countries they abandoned in favor of ISIS?
Clarissa's Blog 
I’m sure joining a terrorist organization is a crime, even in Canada. Why aren’t they in jail?
I’m in favor of prosecuting them to the fullest extent of the law. I don’t think it’s right for these defectives to be offloaded to some other poor country. You raised them, you keep them!
It’s like the human version of all the hazardous waste sent by western countries to India and China under the guise of free trade. Fuck you Canada, deal with your own waste at home.
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\ You raised them, you keep them!
When I began thinking of raising and being raised, the first examples I thought of were American melting pot ideology and ideological school ‘education’ in FSU. “Raising somebody” and taking responsibility for the results is a thing of the past of strong nation states. In the beginning age of open borders and nation states’ destruction, nobody takes any responsibility, least of all the failed states and cultures from which immigrants (aka refugees) come.
\ I don’t think it’s right for these defectives to be offloaded to some other poor country. You raised them, you keep them!
It’s like the human version of all the hazardous waste sent by western countries to India and China …
SB, I don’t think you want to go in this direction of “keep your waste.” In today’s age of cowardness, nobody seems to publish statistics, but judging from their names in articles and the ways offered to deal with the situation, I think most of them are Muslims. Most likely, first born in Canada generation of immigrant parents. Why does it matter in my eyes? Since:
In London’s park I visited this summer there were only Muslim men and their women in hijabs. (And a few Russian-speaking tourists.) If somebody from their families joins ISIS, I don’t think it’s fair to say “England raised them.” Their parents (‘s culture) raised them. Sending those Muslim terrorists away is not offloading them since they were the ones offloaded to Canada in the first place.
Serious question to SB: how much of their culture should immigrants be let to keep, in your opinion?
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In Canada even serial rapists/ murderers are released in a few years after boozing it up and participating in any number of sexual orgies in jail. These people will be released into the population after, at most, 5 or 6 years. Especially since it’s impossible to collect evidence as to what they did while in ISIS.
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I have to agree–strip them of their citizenship and put them on trial on charges of joining and working for a terrorist organization. It’s just that simple. ISIS (or ISIL) is not the French Foreign Legion. They are a terrorist group, period.
Put it this way–these folks made their own beds–now let them sleep in them.
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“I have to agree–strip them of their citizenship”
I’ll say this again. Citizenship is a zero sum game. What authority does Canada have to dump these criminals to some other country? Australia, sadly, is not a destination anymore.
And why is that actual rapists and criminals are in canadian jails without any controversy, but these potential rapists have to be thrown out of the country? I don’t understand. Are you saying criminals should have their citizenship revoked?
“Put it this way–these folks made their own beds–now let them sleep in them.”
They are sleeping in those jail beds, I presume.
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“Are you saying criminals should have their citizenship revoked?”
People who shifted their allegiance to a different state are routinely stripped of citizenship. Like I was. Islamic State is a state. It doesn’t position itself as a criminal gang but as an actual state. So I don’t see how it makes sense here to talk of criminals rather than defectors.
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“Islamic state is a state.”
They can call themselves that but that doesn’t make it so. It can position itself in whatever way it likes to gain twitter followers.
“People who shifted their allegiance to a different state are routinely stripped of citizenship.”
What? Don’t you say, for example, that even the term ‘Israel-firsters’ is antisemitic? I think it’s perfectly fine for citizens of a particular state to care more about some other state. It’s their choice.
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“Don’t you say, for example, that even the term ‘Israel-firsters’ is antisemitic?”
I’ve never heard the term.
“I think it’s perfectly fine for citizens of a particular state to care more about some other state.”
The nation-state (which is the only state form that came up with the idea of citizenship) functions on the basis of the following principle: the state acts for the benefit of its citizens to the best of its ability, and in return, the citizens are emotionally attached to the state and are willing to give their lives for it if the need arises. That’s the bargain without which there is no nation-state. This is why Ukraine was perfectly justified, as a nation-state, in stripping me of my citizenship the moment it decided that I was not upholding my part of the bargain. And it’s also why I was perfectly justified in leaving Ukraine once I decided it wasn’t existing for my benefit the way I wanted it to.
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The term “Israel-firster” is a fairly recent term of disparagement used by some left-wing groups to refer to certain AMERICAN Jews (like Chuck Schumer and Joe Lieberman) who are accused of supporting the policies of Israel over the interests of their own country, the U.S.
The term doesn’t refer to citizens of Israel.
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\ What authority does Canada have to dump these criminals to some other country? Australia, sadly, is not a destination anymore.
A good question. Clarissa, do you know to where the Conservatives intended to send ISIS returnees? Or was it a case of empty rhetoric intended purely for attracting voters? If yes, it’s disappointing since there should be a serious discussion about the situation, giving place to different views.
\ The Conservatives suggested stripping them of Canadian citizenship. This seems extremely reasonable
Weren’t you against stripping Israeli Arab terrorists of Israeli citizenship? In our case, where to send them is not a question – PA is the suitable place. And one can’t say “You raised them, you keep them” in Israeli case. 🙂
\ What say you, readers?
I don’t think ISIS and/or Arab terrorists have some inherent right to keep citizenship.
Neither do I support “you raised, you keep” position, for reasons explained above.
However, I am still unsure stripping them of citizenship is the right approach. What if it leads to those criminals deciding “I can’t go back, thus will stay with ISIS” and committing more crimes? What if some of them may bring valuable information to Canadian intelligence services? Most importantly, Canada tries to persuade parents and community members to report potentially extremist youths in order to fight terrorism. Stripping of citizenship would make family and community members less willing to report, imo.
\ Once again, nobody stopped to think how it would impact the rights of Canadian women
I know you care a lot about women rights, but this is SO not about women. As if ISIS terrorists don’t kill men or don’t abuse children of both genders in all kinds of ways. A few terrorists won’t impact the rights of Canadian women. They may, however, impact everybody’s security by committing terrorist acts on Canadian soil. There have already been such cases, as I read in some article linked by SB.
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“Clarissa, do you know to where the Conservatives intended to send ISIS returnees?”
Everything is about women to me. Let somebody else worry about men if they are so inclined. The whole reason for ISIS to exist is to have large space where women can be brutalized and raped with impunity. That’s the whole motivation of these freaks. It’s convenient to many to pretend that isn’t so, but what do I care about their conveniences?
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“A few terrorists won’t impact the rights of Canadian women. ”
“Clarissa, do you know to where the Conservatives intended to send ISIS returnees?”
“Weren’t you against stripping Israeli Arab terrorists of Israeli citizenship?”
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\ But aren’t we talking about the ones who never went anywhere?
They are not hiding they’re fighting against Israel and for Palestinian state, and don’t see themselves Israeli citizens the way Jews or serving-in-IDF Druze are. If they join a war against me and for another state, which they pledge loyalty to / are patriots of, shouldn’t they be sent there?
As for going anyware, many of them think Jews should go ‘back to Europe’ and Tel-Aviv should become purely Arab city. From their pov, Palestine (the future state) is right where they stand, no need to go.
\ To jail, obviously, but without the protections of
Sounds great to me.
\ Going outside and wondering every single time if every man you see
Because of several men? Several ISIS criminals are not the real problem. Thousands of non-integrating immigrants and refugees – are, and they do truly impact women rights.
And I don’t live in such paranoia even in Israel, in which close to 20% of population (men, women and children) hate me. It’s not a gender thing where I live, of course.
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“They are not hiding they’re fighting against Israel and for Palestinian state”
There is no Palestinian state, though. When finally there is a Palestinian state and if there is no agreement on dual citizenship, then I’m sure that everybody who becomes a citizen of Palestine will lose Israeli citizenship.
“If they join a war against me and for another state”
You can’t have it both ways. Palestine is either a country or not. 🙂 But it can’t be a country when it’s convenient and not a country when it isn’t.
“Several ISIS criminals are not the real problem. Thousands of non-integrating immigrants and refugees – are, and they do truly impact women rights.”
There doesn’t need to be a single problem. There can be two or even three that exist simultaneously. 🙂
“And I don’t live in such paranoia even in Israel, in which close to 20% of population (men, women and children) hate me.”
I had no idea you had such a large circle of acquaintances. 20% of the population, and they all know you! That’s some sociability. 🙂
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\ There is no Palestinian state, though. […] You can’t have it both ways. Palestine is either a country or not. 🙂 But it can’t be a country when it’s convenient and not a country when it isn’t.
A state or not, Palestinians and Israel are two different communities in conflict. If a terrorist decides to kill members of my group for another community since s/he feels himself its member, I can send him to live with them, away from Israel.
You know Gazans and PA citizens are not Israeli citizens, right? Arabs from PA have PA id cards.
\ I had no idea you had such a large circle of acquaintances. 20% of the population, and they all know you! That’s some sociability.
Speaking seriously, each one of those 20% is a potential enemy. For instance, a current wave of terror acts committed by Israeli Arabs too proves the point. For instance, from university of Haifa study in 2011:
Over 62% of the Arab citizens of Israel believe Jews are a foreign imprint on the Middle East and are destined to be replaced by Palestinians, and a similar proportion believe that Israel has no right to exist as a Jewish state, according to a nationwide survey scheduled for release on Sunday.
http://www.jpost.com/National-News/625-percent-of-Israeli-Arabs-see-Jews-as-foreign-imprint
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Citizenship only exists in the framework of a state, not of a community. Communities have existed throughout history but citizenship only arose to accompany the nation-state.
And how on earth did we end up on the topic of Israel again? 🙂
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By the way, even for the high crimes of treason, at least in the US, the punishment does not include stripping of citizenship. Death, yes. Revoking your passport, no.
“Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.”
Why this special category of ‘returning criminals’ then? The law’s already in place to handle them. Why are we trying to introduce redundancy into the system?
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“By the way, even for the high crimes of treason, at least in the US, the punishment does not include stripping of citizenship. ”
I can only repeat: I committed no crime at all, and my passport was revoked. This happens every day all over the world. It is not an unusual occurrence. If it were, one could be a citizen of every country in the world simultaneously, and that doesn’t happen.
“Why this special category of ‘returning criminals’ then?”
They are only criminals after there’s been a trial. For now, they are simply immigrants. Who are stripped of citizenship all the time, and nobody seems to object. Why this sudden concern for this particular group?
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\ Why this sudden concern for this particular group?
Because they are Muslims and people in Europe and, I guess, Canada are afraid of drawing their ire.
Weremost of them Russians or Ukrainians, nobody would have cared.
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Wait, you’re saying had a Russian-Canadian joined ISIS, nobody would’ve care if their citizenship got revoked? We’ve discussed before how you’re brainwashed to the point where you’re unable to draw any meaningful inferences from the world around you. And, it’s sad. But jesus christ.
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\ Wait, you’re saying had a Russian-Canadian joined ISIS, nobody would’ve care if their citizenship got revoked?
A few people would care, but I think an average Canadian and Canada’s media are much more interested in and worried about Muslim-Canadians than about Russian-Canadians.
People would care less since ISIS doesn’t claim to represent Russians, there isn’t a wave of millions of Russian immigrants on European train stations, etc.
\ Canada doesn’t get to pretend they’re not citizens because they are horrible, vile, creatures.
But joining ISIS, like Israeli-Arab terrorism, is a declaration of “I am not a Canadian / Israeli citizen. I mentally see myself as a citizen of ISIS / Palestine.” If somebody takes this position, why shouldn’t a state agree with it?
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“Wait, you’re saying had a Russian-Canadian joined ISIS, nobody would’ve care if their citizenship got revoked?”
I don’t know any of the returnees stories, but they can easily turn out to be former Russians or Spaniards or Australians.
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“Because they are Muslims and people in Europe and, I guess, Canada are afraid of drawing their ire.”
The woman arrested in Spain yesterday was only “Muslim” inasmuch as she put on a niqab and bought a copy of the Koran in Spanish. This kind of a ritual would be enough to make you consider yourself as Protestant but other religions have stricter requirements. 🙂
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“I can only repeat: I committed no crime at all, and my passport was revoked.”
That is only because you had acquired another passport at the time. I doubt the Ukraine government would’ve rendered you stateless.
“For now, they are simply immigrants.”
Citizens, like it or not. Not immigrants. Canada doesn’t get to pretend they’re not citizens because they are horrible, vile, creatures.
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But why aren’t they immigrants? They left to join another state, which calls itself a state and has every trapping of a state. From what I hear, it seems very crucial to ISIS that they are a state, with a place on a map, with a specific territory. This couldn’t be more different from a criminal gang that is not trying to mark itself as a state and has no interest in maps.
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My preference would be for lengthy prison sentences. Joining ISIS is a de facto act of treason and as long as western governments pretend that it isn’t then that just strengthens ISIS.
Letting them know that once they make that choice there’s no coming back without spending time behind bars might help convince some of the freaks that find ISIS appealing that it’s not worth it (and I could care less if they end up dead in ISIS-stan).
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I couldn’t agree more.
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Naturalized citizens who originally came from a foreign country can easily be stripped of U.S. citizenship and deported back to their country of origin. The U.S. has done this with some regularity to naturalized citizens from Germany who were later found to have lied about connections to a Nazi past. It’s also been applied to immigrants from Sicily after they started criminal Mafia activity in the U.S.
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Great point. But underlying this is the notion that you can’t do this unilaterally. You have to enter into a diplomatic agreement with the states of Germany and Italy to do so. There are formal procedures about these things. Where is the state of ISIS? Who has recognized it? Where are its embassies? Its representative in the UN?
Also, you’re talking about naturalized citizens. What about Canadian born citizens? How do you send them ‘back’? There is no ‘back’ for them.
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I’m addressing the laws of the U.S. — not familiar with Canadian law. I’m assuming that natural-born Canadians would have to be kept in Canada and punished there after returning from the Middle East.
Obviously, you can’t deport anybody to a generic “ISIS” nation, since none exists. But if these ISIS members were originally citizens from friendly Middle Eastern countries like Jordan or Saudi Arabia, those governments will take their own citizens back.
ISIS members arriving in the U.S. or Canada who are citizens of Syria or Libya would probably just have to be kept in the U.S. or Canada and punished there as non-citizens.
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Several remarks. As someone who acquired Canadian citizenship via naturalization, I know for sure that Canada does not require people abandoning their old citizenship when they get Canadian one. If you got your Ukrainian citizenship taken away by the Ukrainian authorities – this is very regrettable, but has nothing to do with how Canada should treat anybody, ISIS or no ISIS.
If there are provisions in the laws about taking Canadian citizenship away for certain crimes – these provisions could be followed. And obviously rapists have to be prosecuted as well. Former members of ISIS have to be prosecuted for being members of a terrorist organization (if some more specific crimes were not proven). But all those arguments about “potential rapists” are too slippery slope for me. Not because I do not believe they are, but because it creates bad precedents. How about all people with Slavic last names being proclaimed “potentially treasonous” one day? There is wide body of scholarly work describing how these people were indoctrinated in their schools, army, state institutions, etc.
And since someone mentioned divided loyalties in general… I do not think this has to be somehow punished. But it should be discussed, and discouraged on ethical grounds. I mean – if one is a very proud and patriotic citizen of country X, and one is intending to place the interests of country X above the interests of one’s new country (by the way, what one is doing in the new country if one is so patriotic?), then perhaps it would be honest and ethical not to apply for the citizenship of the new country.
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And by the way, as someone well-educated in feminist theory, you surely know that according to some branches of feminism, all males are “potential rapists”…
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We’ve started going in circles. My Ukrainian citizenship was not revoke (by Ukraine, obviously, who else?) because of any crimes. It was revoked because I pledged allegiance to another, albeit a very friendly state. My argument is that the same position can easily be taken regarding people who leave Canada and pledge allegiance to another state. It could be used if there were political will to do so but there is no such will, as we are seeing. The question that interests me is why.
The answer I’m seeing for now is that at this particular moment in time it is extremely inconvenient for everybody to remember that the compact between a citizen and a nation-state is conditional. Neither the nation-state nor the citizens want to be reminded of their obligations to each other. Yet each party is convinced that the other will absolutely keep up its end of the bargain.
The reason why people get so passionate about the need to preserve the citizenship of these ISIS runners doesn’t have much to do with ISIS. It has to do with their need to know that “their” nation-state will for certain take care of them, no matter what. Even though they are no longer interested in doing anything whatsoever for it.
But it won’t. It has already revoked our symbolic citizenship right after we symbolically repudiated it .
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I have no problem with someone who persistently and consistently applies the rule of one citizenship at a time, so to speak. But so far Canada as a state did not go this way. And this is what some people like about Canada. Should Canada stop behaving this way, my allegiance to it would be reduced (not to the point of joining ISIS or Putin, obviously). And this begs a question: should Canada piss off people like me in the name of a bit of additional punishing of ISIS members who are punished anyway?
Apart from the dual citizenship issue – some people also oppose the whole idea of tweaking the laws too frequently to address some issues of the moment, especially if the crimes in question are actually already punishable. Do not waste money on that tweaking, do not give anyone ground to earn some political capital, do not create precedents that can backfire, etc.
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I have a friend who was born Canadian, then came to the US to work, eventually got an American citizenship, and now doesn’t have Canadian citizenship any longer. I believe she could try to recover it but it would be somewhat of a process. In order not to lose Canadian citizenship while residing as a citizen somewhere else, you apparently need to undergo regular bureaucratic procedures, pay fees, etc. I don’t know the details but I will probably find myself in this situation eventually.
The point I’m making is that completely law-abiding and inoffensive people don’t find it all that easy to hold a dozen different passports and use them whenever the fancy takes them.
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Well, yes, I also have to go to Ottawa to renew my Estonian passport, nobody brings it home to me. You want to preserve meaningful connection to a different country – you make some effort.
But this is very far from the subject of the original post – “Conservatives good, Liberals bad”. 🙂 The way I see it – Conservatives tried to get some extra votes by pedaling an issue that is well-regulated already, but it backfired since people saw it as unethical political move, attempting to simultaneously abuse fear, xenophobia and feminist rhetoric (the last one i would not even notice if not for you).
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I can’t have yet another round of a discussion about evil politicians who want votes. 🙂 🙂 All politicians want votes. Do you think Trudeau was tweeting the photo with the shrouded because he has a profound personal interest to them? No, of course not. He’s using the poor fools to score points and get more votes. How is it any more or any less “unethical” than what any other politician does to get votes is a mystery to me.
All politicians pander with the goal of getting votes. That’s their job. I, however, reserve the right to support those who pander to me than those who pander to my ideological enemies.
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Wanting votes per se does not an evil politician make ((c) Master Yoda). The question is – to what sentiments the politician is appealing? Is s/he appealing to the better in people or to the worse in people? Is he (ab)using people’s ignorance? Etc.
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So what sentiments is Trudeau appealing to with his photo with shrouded women? I obviously consider them bad Others, I’m sure, might consider them good. Try explaining to them that my preference not to see women marked as pieces of property is better than their passionate need to imagine women as pieces of property.
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Just fly them back to Syria/Iraq and hand them to the nearest ISIS group. I am sure they know how to deal with deserters.
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I can fly anybody anywhere because I’m not the government of Canada. So I don’t know who is the addressee of this order.
I’ve got to say, you’ve been acting very weirdly lately.
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I thought we where discussing what to do with people trying to return to the west after joining ISIS.
My position is that these people have voluntarily accepted ISIS as being an entity of which they wish to be a “citizen” and they should take the consequences of making such a decision. Given the opportunity I am sure ISIS will not treat them kindly for leaving. So why not return the returnees to their newly adopted “state” as a form of punishment and deter others from following them?
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Now, this makes much more sense, thank you.
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