Am I missing something or is the following a suggestion that people should have sex when they don’t want to in order to please their partners and keep them around?
It’s not an obligation, to start with. It’s not necessarily about physical pleasure, per se. It doesn’t have to be a “release” or even a distraction. It doesn’t have to be AWESOME. It’s a thing you do with your partner because your partner likes it and you like your partner and it won’t do you any kind of harm to have some naked time. You do it because you see how it’s good for your long term happiness: your partner feels welcomed into your heart and mind, feels connected and accepted, may even feel all the pleasure, release, etc that sex is hyped to be. You do it because it’s Good For You. . .
Look, if you only exercised or ate vegetables or showered when you really WANTED to… well, I know I’d only do each one about once a week, most weeks.
Obviously, we all know that the people encouraged to force themselves to have sex as an investment in long-term happiness can only be women. It is much easier for an uncaring, nasty partner to pretend not to notice lack of female arousal than of a male erection.
The idea that female sexuality only exists to service the needs of others (men, the family, society) has been Within a patriarchal model, each woman needs to be claimed by some man as her own and proclaimed as valuable in society’s eyes by this act of ownership. A woman who is “not in a relationship” becomes a useless creature who hasn’t fulfilled her role of servicing the needs of others.
The especially passionate proponents of this sexual self-violation are women who have sacrificed their sexuality for the sake of this Holy Grail of a relationship. They know how much they lost when they chose to betray their sexuality. This is why the idea that there are women who don’t self-violate in the same manner drives them to distraction. Hence, the efforts to talk all women into following in their footsteps.
So here is an alternative piece of advice from a non-patriarchal woman:
Dear women! Do not violate your bodies and force yourselves to have sex when you don’t want to and with a partner you don’t desire. Rather than an investment in long-term happiness, you are investing in a host of physiological ailments and psychological problems. This self-violation will cost you very dearly. Every time you fake interest in sex, you remove the possibility of ever having happy, orgasmic, fulfilling sex even farther away from yourselves. If you need to have sex to “feel accepted” by your partner, that means you have a really crappy partner who doesn’t care two straws about you. Dump him today, he is a jerk. A normal man – I don’t even say a loving man, just a man who is reasonably healthy in his head – would be horrified at the suggestion of having sex with an unwilling partner. (And a woman, too, of course.) You don’t need to be “in a relationship” at all costs. Nobody does.
If you are past the age of 30 and you need to think of long-term happiness, investments, relationships or posts you read online to talk yourself into having sex, please know: you are with the wrong partner. He might be the best guy in the universe, but you do not desire him physically. You are exchanging your sexuality for societal validation. Just think about it.
Clarissa's Blog 
Obviously, we all know that the people encouraged to force themselves to have sex as an investment in long-term happiness can only be women.(Clarissa)
Obviously! Only a big bad man would do that, there is no way a woman would be that coercive or manipulative. 😉
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My friend, can you read? I said: “we all know that the people encouraged to force themselves to have sex as an investment in long-term happiness can only be women.” Themselves means that women do the forcing. Of themsleves. And their female selves are those of women. Jeez. How can anybody read this as blaming men for forcing women into sex?
Come on.
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What, you dont know any men who would do that? I have a couple of friends who have considerably lower drives than their female partner and feel the need to force themselves to have sex for the sake of the relationship. Human beings, not so one sided as you seem to think. Jeez.
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How can a man fake an erection, precisely? I’ve been asking around for years, and every man I asked tells me it is not physiologically possible. But I’m willing to accept that there are men who have found a way.
In this particular area, I can only go on what I’m being told, as you understand.
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The physiological aspect of having an erection does not indicate arousal specifically. If a woman has an orgasm while being raped(it has happened) does that mean she was turned on?
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I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you are saying. I’ve talked to many many many women who have faked interest in sex. I’ve been one of them myself. But I’m yet to meet a man who confessed to having successfully faked a sex act. Maybe I’m naive and uneducated, but I don’t understand how it can happen on a practical level.
As for rape, whether the male or female victim is aroused and / or has an orgasm, doesn’t make it any less of a crime. I’m sure we will have no disagreement here. I’d eave rape aside, for a moment because I want to discuss something completely different here. This is a very serious issue for multitudes of women.
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A man can get an erection and fake orgasm too. Im sure if the woman is aroused enough she wouldnt be sure if ejaculated or not.
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You are the first man who said something like that in my presence. This is a fascinating piece of news. What would motivate a man to do that since no man can achieve a complete social recognition by his peers JUST for being in a relationship?
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Granted, I’m not a man, so if I’m totally off-base, feel free to tell me so.
I’m guessing that men can and do fake interest in sex. I mean, an erection doesn’t necessarily mean that a man wants to have sex. Heck, it could just be because he just woke up, y’know? I don’t know about “faking” an erection, but I bet a lot of men could feign desire, and then physical stimulation would take care of the erection. It doesn’t necessarily have to be related to whether or not the man WANTS sex on a conscious, emotional level.
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I don’t know, I’m not a man either. 🙂 But look at how many female prostitutes there are as opposed to male prostitutes. Isn’t that because it is physiologically impossible for most me to have sex without being aroused?
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They’d have to be physically aroused, but maybe not mentally. I’m guessing that physical stimulation will tend to lead to the physical response, whether or not the guy is actually into it.
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Do you believe, then, that with enough physical stimulation anybody can experience arousal with absolutely anybody else? So the sexual desire does not exist?
This is turning to be a fascinating conversation. I’m especially glad that I managed not to offend anybody. At least, not yet.
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I think it’s a little too sweeping to say anyone can experience arousal with anybody else, but I would say that physical arousal is probably possible for many people with or without real desire. Many men have an erection first thing in the morning, and it has nothing to do with sexual desire OR stimulation, for example.
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The reality, however, that there are crowds of women who sacrifice their sexuality “for the good of the relationship” and not nearly as many men who do that. Men might agree to go without sex or to fulfill their needs on the side. But a man who engages in a regular unwilling participation in sex with a woman he doesn’t desire is rare, indeed. I’ve met many many women who confessed to this but only know one man who tried doing it and drove himself to complete impotence at the age of 24 as a result. Women achieve the same results but it’s not as visible.
Oh, I forgot! I also knew a man who had sex with a prostitute on a bet and this act of self-violation messed his sex life up for a very long time. He didn’t have sex at all for almost 5 years after that.
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I agree with you completely that it’s probably much, much more common for women.
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I don’t know, while I wouldn’t give this as advice to anyone, I’ve definitely at times decided to have sex with my partner even though I didn’t really feel like it, because we were in a committed, long-term relationship and I was willing to compromise.
I don’t consider myself to have been coerced or brainwashed or made to subjugate my own desires. I saw it as no different from making an effort to be neater if you’re messy and your partner likes things clean, or from cooking a vegetarian dish that you and your vegetarian partner can share. Long-term relationships are about compromise, and I just don’t see sex as some sort of special area in which compromise should never ever ever happen.
But like I said, that’s just me. That’s something I feel completely comfortable doing. I would never tell someone else, female or otherwise, that this is something they “have” to do to maintain their relationship. But I also don’t think that doing this is necessarily terrible and wrong.
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” I saw it as no different from making an effort to be neater if you’re messy and your partner likes things clean, or from cooking a vegetarian dish that you and your vegetarian partner can share.”
– Sexuality is, indeed, very different from cleaning and cooking since it’s a physiological function. It’s more like being force-fed, if we need to draw a parallel with food. Children who are force-fed develop numerous eating disorders as a result, for example.
Any sex act done for any purpose other than for experiencing sexual pleasure is a deeply harmful one.
Would you like somebody to have sex with you as a compromise and not because they desire you?
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You know, I’m a pretty self-aware person, and when I say that I’m comfortable with something, I mean it.
You don’t have to do it. But it works for me.
And no, I don’t want them to do that. As I specifically said, I wouldn’t suggest or demand that anybody else do it.
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“And no, I don’t want them to do that. As I specifically said, I wouldn’t suggest or demand that anybody else do it.”
– I’m not talking about suggesting or demanding. I’m just asking how you would feel if you discover that your partner had sex with you not out of desire but out of a sense of obligation.
I’m simply curious, this is not a criticism of you of any kind.
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Well, if I were in that situation, I’d tell my partner that I don’t want him/her to have sex with me out of a sense of obligation. Ultimately, though, that’s their choice. I can neither read their mind nor force them not to have sex with me.
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“Any sex act done for any purpose other than for experiencing sexual pleasure is a deeply harmful one.”
What if a couple doesn’t enjoy sex, but wants to make a baby?
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gudenuf, how often do you think it happens? Except couples with infertility problems, whose sexual lives often horribly suffer because of needing to measure and have sex at date X and all the pressure, it’s very rare.
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I had no sex drive at all after having children. None. Gone. Goodbye. But I felt like I should probably still have sex with my husband, despite the fact that my hormones were completely out of whack, because once we got into it, I enjoyed it. I knew that if I allowed us to “get into it” that I would have fun and we could bond. But I did have to force myself to get into it for a long time until my sex drive came back.
Hubby is frequently more interested in sex than I am because I have always had a lower sex drive than him. When I tell him no, he is fine with not having sex. Sometimes I say yes when I’m not interested, though, because I know I will be interested in about ten minutes.
I agree with Miriam that long-term commitments are about compromise. Sometimes that compromise includes sex — at least for me.
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“I agree with Miriam that long-term commitments are about compromise. ”
– Leaving sex aside, I do not understand this at all. I have tried thinking of whether I have made any compromises with my husband and can’t think of a single one. He will be back from work soon and I’ll ask him.
Once again, I sincerely hope that nobody takes this discussion of a sensitive issue as a personal criticism of them and their lives!
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I’m not taking it personally. In an ideal world, no one would ever have sex if they weren’t totally turned on, and in that same ideal world, no one would ever have sex with someone that they found (at the moment) unattractive (for whatever reason — he needs a shower, he needs to shave, he needs to get rid of those hideous pants that he loves so much). But the world is so far from ideal that not being turned on at the right moment all the time seems like a very minor detail in the grand scheme of things.
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” In an ideal world, no one would ever have sex if they weren’t totally turned on, and in that same ideal world, no one would ever have sex with someone that they found (at the moment) unattractive ”
– But why should it be hard? Why not have sex only with people one finds powerfully attractive when the desire strikes one? I understand your situation after childbirth and that obviously was a complex and a very special situation. But here in the original post we have a woman who doesn’t feel very sexual because she is stressed over buying a house. What’s the big deal with telling her partner, “Nah, I don’t feel like sex today”? Isn’t this basic dishonesty of not saying this truth going to erode not only her health but the relationship, too?
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I think it definitely can lead to resentment. In her case, I’d just say no. In my case, I didn’t have a sex drive for at least two years. Can you imagine a wife saying no for two years? I don’t think my husband would have cheated on me because he’s not that kind of guy, but I do think that he would have felt rejected enough to maybe threaten to leave me. Even the Catholic church allows annulments for spousal sexual abandonment.
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Yes, this was obviously a special situation that we shouldn’t touch upon in this discussion. ou obviously had serious things going on. But something as trivial as packing up for a move? Why not just say no?
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Why “past the age of 30?”
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Female sexuality only begins to come into its full force after 30. Women who are under 30 and who worry that their libido is low, should stop worrying immediately. 🙂 It’s completely normal and time will take care of it.
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Female sexuality only begins to come into its full force after 30.(Clarissa)
It is surprising some of the things you come up with. Its almost like you are reading Cosmo or something like it. 😉
There are many women who Cum into much sooner than that. 🙂
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“It is surprising some of the things you come up with.”
– Yes, please, share with us all about how your female sexuality developed.
It’s sad that people should be so ignorant of the basic facts of human physiology that they react with teenage giggling whenever something is mentioned in a serious discussion.
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Related: do you think there are really asexual people, or just people who for whatever reason are experiencing a drop in desire and/or lack of actual attraction to putative partner?
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Jesus, woman, are you trying to get me into the whole asexuality discussion once again? 🙂 🙂
For those who are not aware, a thread on asexuality made my blog very famous in the first month of its existence. Before that thread, I was a little, unknown blogger. After it, fame came to me. 🙂 Sorry, I’m in a wonderful mood, so I’m being playful.
I will still cautiously answer your question: for myself – not for other people but just for me – I do not believe in any labels that are related to sexuality. If I – I, me, myself – found myself experiencing asexuality, I would do all I could to figure out why that is and where it came from.
As we all know, I practice heterosexual sex. However, I believe, according to my worldview, that everybody is, by nature, bisexual. So I have analyzed my sexuality, why it has been stunted in the direction of heterosexuality, what caused it., etc. I know why I am this way and it makes me feel good to have explored this part of me. People who say “I’m asexual and I refuse to figure out why” are as incomprehensible to me as people who refuse to figure out any part of their reality and substitute it with identity labels. It is their right to do so, of course. But it is my right to wonder.
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“What if a couple doesn’t enjoy sex, but wants to make a baby?”
– They should think twice before bringing this poor baby into such kind of a relationship. Children of sexually unsatisfied couples suffer horribly! Believe me, I should know. Parents use them to satisfy their tactile needs, and there is no escaping from them. The hysteria, the constant fighting. . . You have to be a really cold, indifferent, mean person to bring a child into this horrible environment. And why? because you need a toy? Because you think everybody needs to have children, irrespective of what kind of grievous problems they have.
As I said many times before, the best thing parents can do for their children is get a life and find sexual fulfillment AWAY FROM CHILDREN.
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“gudenuf, how often do you think it happens? Except couples with infertility problems, whose sexual lives often horribly suffer because of needing to measure and have sex at date X and all the pressure, it’s very rare.”
– Are you serious? Are you aware of the percentage of women suffering from anorgasmy? How much do yout think a healthy man enjoys sex with an anorgasmic woman?
Talk to your female friends. Especially if they are under 30-35. You’ll hear things that will surprise you. And not in a good way. On the positive side, women begin to awaken to the fact that sex is good and necessary after the age of 35 (by 45, certainly.) On the negative side, men of their age start losing their sex drive gradually at about that age.
I know a woman who discovered orgasms at 53. Of course, after decades of miserable sex with an anorgasmic woman, her husband had severe erectile issues. Obviously, she left him.
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Btw, why do you think it happens? Physiologically it doesn’t make sense NOT to want sex while young & very suitable to have the 1st child. I mean from evolutionary pov.
Imo, shaming women for sex culture plays a central role in that. Even if somebody says “Oh, I am OK”, the subconsciousness plays a role and for most women it’s conscious anyway. F.e. have sex after drinking to “ease inhibitions”. Or being ashamed of XYZ. Or… Don’t know how it’s possible to get rid of this notion. Thoughts?
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“Physiologically it doesn’t make sense NOT to want sex while young & very suitable to have the 1st child.”
– Human beings have long overcome any purely physiological motivations. Human sexuality is completely divorced from being centered exclusively on reproduction.
“Imo, shaming women for sex culture plays a central role in that.”
– And the ease of exchanging one’s sexuality for the only true social recognition a woman needs (a relationship).
“F.e. have sex after drinking to “ease inhibitions”. ”
– Not a bad way for an anorgasmic woman to start addressing the issue. Speaking from experience here. 🙂 If it hadn’t been for those 4 whiskies, I’d probably still be frigid as a door knob. 🙂
“Don’t know how it’s possible to get rid of this notion. ”
– The usual way: what words did your parents use to talk to you about sexuality? What ideas about sex did you acquire in your childhood? How did you first learn about sex? Who taught you to think of sex as something shameful and how did they do it? (“You” here doesn’t mean you personally, of course.)
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//The usual way: what words did your parents use to talk to you about sexuality?
What if it isn’t parents, but peers and culture in general (books, TV)?
When I say books, I don’t mean yellow lit or chick lit, many classical authors are horribly misogynist.
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“What if it isn’t parents, but peers and culture in general (books, TV)?”
– We learn the sexual patterns of our behavior from parents. This is a crucial question that anybody who wonders about their sexuality should answer.
“When I say books, I don’t mean yellow lit or chick lit, many classical authors are horribly misogynist.”
– The entire XIXth century was about novels where women awaken to their sexual needs and rebel against sexually unfulfilled marriages: Madame Bovary, La Regenta, The Awakening, Anna Karenina. And the XXth century literature really puts the female sexuality on a pedestal as one of the central aspects of female life and development. As for the earlier, Medieval literature, it’s filled to the brim with happily lascivious women. So let’s not slander world literature! 🙂 🙂
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I think you should branch out more and talk to more people about this stuff because I have heard it from a lot of my friends that their boyfriend doesn’t want sex as much as they do. They all say, “aren’t guys suppose to be the ones who want sex all the time” because that is what we’re told forever and that girls don’t want sex but instead it’s something we do to please our partner (kind of like the author of the article you posted) I’ve experienced this myself and I believe I have a healthy libido. The only difference is when a guy has a higher libido than his gf/wife or wants sex when the gf/wife isn’t in the mood, she feels like she has to have sex with him because for years they’ve gotten the same advice that was given in the article you posted. Guys on the other hand, mostly wont have sex unless they want to and instead they shame women for it. Me and many of my girlfriends have had this happen. The guys will tell us we’re sex addicts, nympho, all we care about is sex, and just don’t think it’s important for them to take care of our sexual needs because we’re taught men’s sexual needs are much more important than that of women’s. More people will sympthize with a man who cheats on his SO because his sexual needs weren’t met but if a woman does the same then she’s a slut/whore.
That doesn’t mean some guys don’t have sex with their S/O just to please their partner or have sex because of other pressure.
Also the thing about women being more horny when they’re in their 30s might have to do with the fact that they are more mature and more in harmony with who they naturally are, don’t have to worry about being called a slut for liking sex anymore and their kids are old enough to take care of themselves and help around the house. Now with more people being accepting of women as sexual beings I think more women will/are more open about their sexuality.
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“Also the thing about women being more horny when they’re in their 30s might have to do with the fact that they are more mature and more in harmony with who they naturally are,”
– This is a physiological issue, not cultural or social.
“don’t have to worry about being called a slut for liking sex anymore and their kids are old enough to take care of themselves and help around”
– 🙂 🙂 What about women who don’t have any children before 30, then? Is sexual fulfillment barred to us? 🙂 🙂
“I think you should branch out more and talk to more people about this stuff because I have heard it from a lot of my friends that their boyfriend doesn’t want sex as much as they do. They all say, “aren’t guys suppose to be the ones who want sex all the time””
– You are right, men in puritanical cultures talk about sex a lot more than they actually engage in it.
” Guys on the other hand, mostly wont have sex unless they want to”
– Because they are physiologically incapable. 🙂
“The guys will tell us we’re sex addicts, nympho, all we care about is sex”
– FINALLY, a fellow sufferer!!! Yay! I’m SO glad you came by this blog. I kept hearing for years, “You just want one thing”, “Why don’t we just cuddle instead?”, “You only care about sex.” Finally, I’m not alone on this issue.
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– This is a physiological issue, not cultural or social.
There’s no evidence to this. I’m 21 and i’m just as horny if not more horny than most 18 year old boys. I really refuse to believe this.
– 🙂 🙂 What about women who don’t have any children before 30, then? Is sexual fulfillment barred to us?
The studies that say women are hornier when they reach their 30s/40s are older and women then and mostly still have kids way before they hit their 30s.
– Because they are physiologically incapable.
No. Just like I can get wet even if i don’t want to have sex with someone.
A quick google search will help you find cases where men were forced into sex
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4288330/Nympho-kept-victim-captive-for-36-hour-forced-sex-session.html
http://www.zimdiaspora.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8005:man-forced-to-have-sex-with-three-women&catid=38:travel-tips&Itemid=18
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“There’s no evidence to this. I’m 21 and i’m just as horny if not more horny than most 18 year old boys. I really refuse to believe this.”
– Then imagine the joys that await you at 41. 🙂
“The studies that say women are hornier when they reach their 30s/40s are older and women then and mostly still have kids way before they hit their 30s.”
– Actually, in the developed countries things are changing in that respect. Since childless women report the exact same increase in their libido as women with children, then it isn’t anything that has to do with the age of children. Let’s escape from the trap of reducing female sexuality to childbearing, OK? By the way, do you notice that your second statement contradicts you first one? 🙂
Look, this is all good news. Whether you choose to have children or not, your sex life will only improve. Yippee! 🙂
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It’s not about having kids its about men not helping women with house work around the house. So when they’re taking care of young children and doing all the house work and possibly working outside the home too, they’re going to feel too tired to have sex. When the children are grown they can help their mom with work around the house and they don’t require as much attention from the mother either. Women in the past and still most women even today had kids way before they were in their 30s.
There’s no other reason for why this would happen other than women not being completely comfortable with their sexuality when they’re young and/or because of the reason above. Nor are there any good scientific studies that prove it.
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“It’s not about having kids its about men not helping women with house work around the house.”
– Erm. what do you mean by “helping”??? Like it’s a woman’s job to take care of a grown man? Jeez. . .I thought at last the today’s 18-year-olds are past this scary model.
“So when they’re taking care of young children and doing all the house work and possibly working outside the home too, they’re going to feel too tired to have sex.”
– Actually, sex is a way to gain extra energy, not vice versa.
“When the children are grown they can help their mom with work around the house and they don’t require as much attention from the mother either. ”
– It’s still a complete mystery why any woman should be such a complete idiot as to live with a man who doesn’t do half of all housework and child-minding.
“There’s no other reason for why this would happen other than women not being completely comfortable with their sexuality when they’re young and/or because of the reason above. Nor are there any good scientific studies that prove it.”
– Talk to you gynecologist. Or to older women. They will tell you many new and interesting things. 🙂 As a 36-year-old woman with no children, I can tell you that female sexuality does become more intense with every year. Every single woman my age and up to the age of 65, whether childless or not, I have discussed this with confirms this. I never discussed this with women older than that, but may be I should.
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I wonder why the idea that your sexuality will become even more active with age is so unpleasant to you. Normally, that’s all people want to hear. This is the first time I see anybody who is so unhappy about the idea.
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