I have to say that I’m really puzzled by all these discussions as to whether Hugo Schwyzer should be forgiven for whatever it is he did in the past and whether his repentance is genuine. The only people who have the right to forgive or not forgive Hugo are the ones whom he hurt (I don’t know if he did or not, that’s his own private business.) If he (or any other blogger) shares a personal story that bothers me, I can say I feel repugnance, I can condemn the blogger’s actions, I can write passionate posts in response. But it isn’t my place to grant or withhold forgiveness from a total stranger.
It really bothers me that people identify so strongly with bloggers as to start seeing them in highly personal terms. We can all realize that this is unhealthy, right? I understand the temptation to spend a lot of time online. I succumb to this temptation too often myself. But the moment when you seriously start to consider whether you can forgive a complete stranger who has no personal relationship with you, I say you need to step away from the screen and go have a life.
Whenever I see those really scary news segments where some celebrity du jour apologizes to anonymous crowds for cheating on his or her spouse, I realize that this is a society where way too many people have no lives of their own and live vicariously through others.
The definition of “repentance” is:
Repentance (Greek: metanoia) is a change of thought to correct a wrong and gain forgiveness from a person who is wronged. In religious contexts it usually refers to confession to God, ceasing sin against God, and resolving to live according to religious law.
Got it? So unless you are either the person who has been wronged or God, you have no business expecting anybody’s repentance, believing or disbelieving it.
I hope to close the topic of Hugo Schwyzer on this blog for a long time to come. Before I do so, however, I want to say the following. I disagree with Hugo Schwyzer on a variety of issues. I’ve had some very heated discussions with him. I condemned his position on a host of subjects and have written about his views in very harsh terms.
However, the treatment he has been subjected to recently on Feministe is nothing short of disgraceful. What I find especially ridiculous is the strong religious vocabulary of “redemption,” “repentance,” “sin,” “reforming,” “redeem,” etc. used by many of the participants. (Just do the context search of the thread and you’ll see for yourself.) It feels like the entire Michele Bachmann camp of supporters has alighted on what is supposed to be a feminist website with no specific religious affiliation.
It’s funny how even the most progressive folks tend to slip into the preachy tones of the most annoying among Bible-thumpers whenever it suits them to do so.
Clarissa's Blog 
I’m reading those fun comments now. One lesson I’ve learned quite profoundly is never to bend over backwards to learn, or assimilate to, someone else’s world view. There are people who will never thank you for it, but will harshly criticize you wherever you fall short. I’ve had some of the weirdest ideas projected onto me just because I tried to adapt to something I wasn’t suited to and fell short. People tend never to forgive you for not accommodating their views 100 percent. For instance, you can’t be a partial Westerner or partial feminist. It seems to invite attack.
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This is what I mean about not bending over backwards for anyone if you don’t already fit all the stereotypes for a particular identity:
PhysioProf 12.17.2011 at 7:17 pm
I would suggest that he not profess about feminism to female students. How he might achieve that is not my fucken concern.
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I confess I’ve invested way too much emotion in Hugo Schwyzer. When I first started reading him, it was at the recommendation of other feminist bloggers telling me that he is a good resource for men learning about how to be male feminists. I found his columns irritating at moralizing, but I kept reading them because I thought there was something I missed.
Then he published his paternity-fraud essay. When I was young I had a series of traumatic experiences. These experiences left me with a special kind of hate for anyone that tries to shirk their parenthood responsibilities. I promised myself that I would never, EVER, be a deadbeat dad. When I read Hugo’s piece, I saw a deadbeat dad telling me that he has the right to leech off of responsible men like me. I felt personally insulted. When other feminists like Amanda Marcotte started defending Schwyzer, I couldn’t believe my eyes. The incident eroded most of the trust I had in the feminist movement.
So yeah, maybe I need to find a different pet interest.
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“Then he published his paternity-fraud essay. When I was young I had a series of traumatic experiences. These experiences left me with a special kind of hate for anyone that tries to shirk their parenthood responsibilities.”
– This is a topic that traumatizes me a lot, too. The reason why I hate people who deny the importance of fatherhood and conceal the information about someone’s paternity from them is that my relationship with my father and his side of the family has been absolutely crucial for my development as a human being. And if somebody had tried to steal all that from me, I can’t even imagine what that would be like. So I understand how you feel.
For some incomprehensible reason, many people equate feminism with the idea that a child is his or her mother’s property to do whatever she wishes with. And that’s just insane.
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I recall the paternity-fraud essay too and I tried to comment, but for some reason it wouldn’t allow me. Maybe it had to do with how many people did comment. I felt very bothered by that essay, along with others that demonstrated not only selfishness, but also lack of responsibility and disregard for the feelings of others.
Yes, I agree that feminism tends to be equated with the idea that a child is the property of the mother. I think a lot of women who comment there seem to have and share that viewpoint. As I recall only one commenter talked about narcissism as it related to mothers, but I don’t know who this women is/was and if she wrote her own blog about it either. After that essay, I really haven’t been back to read or to comment.
I agree with you about the importance of fatherhood for all the reasons you cite above. I don’t tend to find alternative writers (feminist) who write otherwise. I also don’t frequent Feministe either since from what I’ve gleaned I don’t really share those expressed viewpoints–which seem extreme.
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//The reason why I hate people who deny the importance of fatherhood and conceal the information about someone’s paternity from them is that my relationship with my father and his side of the family has been absolutely crucial for my development as a human being.//
As somebody with a different experience (btw, I had a relationship with him and some of relatives, but it had been not connected to *any* development, I would have been just as well without ever seeing him) I want to say that you had, what I call, a real father, just as I had a real grandmother from mother’s side, who had been absolutely crucial for my development as a human being. (She died in my 20ies, so I was lucky to know her that long as a human being, unlike mother’s father, who died when I was 5 and whom I only remember loving and weeping at the funeral). Real relatives are crucial, but fathers, who don’t care much for their children, who don’t love them, aren’t necessary at all. If your father left & doesn’t love you, and then you know or not his face, so what? I wouldn’t care not to know and don’t think it’s doing evil to a child not to tell them, if the father isn’t really a father, but a biological inseminator only. I view being a relative to a child as something earned, not “he’s a biological father, of course, he’s crucial to child’s development regardless of his character and desires”. Imo, if a father doesn’t seek to take responsibility for a child, a child won’t miss not knowing him. Of course, I don’t talk of children in orphanages , but of children with some real relatives.
In Hugo’s case it’s paternity fraud, which is another matter entirely, and I do think it’s horrible.
I see that we each judge from our own experience, which isn’t surprising, but surprised me here. 🙂
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“eal relatives are crucial, but fathers, who don’t care much for their children, who don’t love them, aren’t necessary at all.”
– 50% of you comes from this person. 50%. So I don’t understand how the word “necessary” even applies here. You are 50% your father. His genes, his history, his family, his background. Denying him, calling him an “inseminator” is denying half of yourself.
“Imo, if a father doesn’t seek to take responsibility for a child, a child won’t miss not knowing him. ”
– A child won’t miss knowing half of him or herself? How does that even make sense?
” I view being a relative to a child as something earned”
– What are you doing to earn the right to be your father’s daughter? I mean, this “earning each other” should go both ways, right? You are an adult and can be in charge of this relationship now.
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My father died several years ago in Ukraine, btw, and the next describes my general approach to life, not my personal life necessary:
50% of genes, yes. What significance one gives to it is very personal. You see not finding out much as denying half of yourself (is knowing name, face and a bit of history enough?), but others may define what “yourself” is differently. I honestly don’t feel any halfs missing. Yes, I know I am biologically half-Russian, I knew him, but I don’t think not being personally acquainted would make me a different person in any big way. May be not even in a very little way. So it seems.
What are you doing to earn the right to be your father’s daughter? I mean, this “earning each other” should go both ways, right?
In case of parents for a relationship to be what I call real it doesn’t work this way. I love and respect my mother and felt thus about my grandmother, but was very indifferent to my father all the time. You can’t force yourself feel or see somebody as a parent beyond biological facts. I didn’t feel any need to be in charge of any relationships. If there is a relationship, it is. If there isn’t, there isn’t a real relationship. Why should left children run after parents, who left them? Or feel something about them at all? Why don’t you see that others, like me, with real relatives, could be indifferent to not real ones?
I know very little about his relatives and don’t feel need to know more. Instead self-definition is relatives I have (real) and countries I live/d in (so far), my abilities and limits, etc.
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“Why should left children run after parents, who left them? Or feel something about them at all? ”
– What makes you think it was you he left? Did he personally tell you that? Did he say, “I’m leaving you, el”?
” You can’t force yourself feel or see somebody as a parent beyond biological facts. I didn’t feel any need to be in charge of any relationships. If there is a relationship, it is. If there isn’t, there isn’t a real relationship. ”
– Something tells me that you inherited this attitude straight from your father. The last sentence I quoted especially.
‘I don’t think not being personally acquainted would make me a different person in any big way. May be not even in a very little way. So it seems.”
– While everybody is alive, it is never late to find out and restore your entire history to yourself. He might just have a story to tell that you don’t even suspect exists.
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What makes you think it was you he left? Did he personally tell you that? Did he say, “I’m leaving you, el”?
Clarissa, there is a great proverb in Russian about somebody who tells it’s dew, when you spit him in the eye. Don’t you think actions speak louder than words? Actually, yes, I know he left me too and even if you don’t “know”, you can judge by behavior, the best way there is. Why do you take this situation to be the only one, where behavior isn’t enough? If a friend f.e. did a low thing to you, would you say “I don’t know, may be s/he is a great person”?
Something tells me that you inherited this attitude straight from your father. The last sentence I quoted especially.
I don’t think I understand. I am not going to leave my children. Didn’t understand what you meant about the last sentence.
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“What makes you think it was you he left? Did he personally tell you that? Did he say, “I’m leaving you, el”?
Clarissa, there is a great proverb in Russian about somebody who tells it’s dew, when you spit him in the eye. Don’t you think actions speak louder than words? Actually, yes, I know he left me too and even if you don’t “know”, you can judge by behavior, the best way there is. Why do you take this situation to be the only one, where behavior isn’t enough? If a friend f.e. did a low thing to you, would you say “I don’t know, may be s/he is a great person”?”
– I asked a simple “yes or no” question: Did he personally tell you that? Did he say, “I’m leaving you, el”?
‘I don’t think I understand. I am not going to leave my children. Didn’t understand what you meant about the last sentence.”
– If the relationship happens on its own, that’s fine. If it doesn’t happen, that’s also fine. Doesn’t it sound like the attitude your father has taken to his relationship with you?
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I meant in the last sentence that I personally am not able to really view somebody as a parent figure, if he didn’t raise me. That’s all. No amount of delving into family history (from father’s side) will give a real father, if he decided to opt out when you were a newborn. Give some curious info? Yes. Make you know yourself better? May be for you, for me it would make me know this side of family history, but not turn into a different person.
I hope you agree at least that there is a profound difference between those blood relatives, who raise you, and those who opted out of this hard job and then you know them a bit or not, whatever.
I talked about not pretending any deep relationship exists, if it isn’t. From my side. To tell that I agree with you about halfs would be a lie to me.
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That’s quite a resistance, really. El, this discussion makes absolutely no sense until you answer the following simple question: Did he or did he not tell you personally, ‘El, I decided to opt out of this hard job of raising you when you were a newborn’? In case he didn’t, who did? Who said these words about him opting out of hardship when you were little?
Don’t answer me if you don’t feel like it. But I honestly don’t understand how anybody can hope to become an adult without answering such questions to themselves.
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If the relationship happens on its own, that’s fine. If it doesn’t happen, that’s also fine. Doesn’t it sound like the attitude your father has taken to his relationship with you?
No. I didn’t talk about parent-child relationship *from parent’s side*. If I have children (hopefully, in the future), it will be my responsibility to take care of them and love naturally grows out of it. (For women I believe there is a biological component too).
Explanation in the previous comment too.
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Love grows out of responsibility? That’s something new. 🙂
“If the relationship happens on its own, that’s fine. If it doesn’t happen, that’s also fine. Doesn’t it sound like the attitude your father has taken to his relationship with you?
No. I didn’t talk about parent-child relationship *from parent’s side*. ”
– This is completely unimportant. You and he seem to have the exact same attitude towards the relationship between you. I’m just pointing out that you seem to share a lot more than you think even to a cursory glance.
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I’m just pointing out that you seem to share a lot more than you think even to a cursory glance.
I know we share some character traits, it isn’t new, so what? I know *my* character, why is it important to pinpoint which trait is from whom? Btw, some traits are hard to sort this way and, I believe, each of us is more than a sum of our biological parents’ traits. I agree that we share something, but I don’t give it some magical (from my pov) influence of knowing half of oneself. I know myself from knowing *myself*, not him. Do you agree others may experience the world differently? I believe you described your feelings, why don’t you believe I honestly described mine?
As for love growing out of responsibility, in case of children it may. F.e. adopting parents, who start really deeply loving the kids. With adults we don’t build our relationships this way.
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” I believe you described your feelings, why don’t you believe I honestly described mine?”
– It’s very hard to have a rational discussion when people aren’t careful about addressing you and address something or somebody else instead. Please show me the quote from ME where I say that “I don’t believe you honestly described.” When did I mention magic? When did I accuse you of dishonesty? I understand that this is a painful topic and I don’t insist on continuing the discussion. However, in case you do want to continue it, I’d rather we discussed what I actually said.
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Just wanted to add, that in case of having to raise a child now I believe most chances are that I’ll end loving him or her. Not so with adult men. 🙂
F.e. in one program I heard of village people asked to take for a while children from an orphanage in Russia because the building had some problems. Nobody returned a child.
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It’s funny.
I actually patently hated the guy’s guts before this whole incident occurred (something about his religion seriously rubbed me the wrong way) – and now after, seeing how he got attacked and torn to shreds by the feministe community, I feel a strange urge to defend him.
Whether that is the contrarian in me, I don’t know. I think it has to do with my spidey-sense that the hatred and vitriol has more to do with feministe’s flavor of the month outrage than the man’s actions. It doesn’t help that one of the talking points is that he’s a “man” lecturing “young impressionable women” about the world. Is male professorship truly a crime as grave as murder-suicide?
I honestly think that they would hate him more if he had a squeaky clean past – that way it would be harder for them to tear him to shreds over the “crime” they find truly egregious – being a male feminist. Well, at least a crime in the eyes of some of the bridge-trolls of the feministe commenting community.
That’s all for now, I’m sure there will be other gold nuggets gleaned from that shit-pile of a conversation.
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“I actually patently hated the guy’s guts before this whole incident occurred (something about his religion seriously rubbed me the wrong way) – and now after, seeing how he got attacked and torn to shreds by the feministe community, I feel a strange urge to defend him.”
– That’s how I feel, too. 🙂
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I actually patently hated the guy’s guts before this whole incident occurred (something about his religion seriously rubbed me the wrong way) – and now after, seeing how he got attacked and torn to shreds by the feministe community, I feel a strange urge to defend him.
I feel a bit of an urge to at least not pile on him full force at least.
But that still doesn’t change the fact that he simultaneously claimed that its not about the DNA but how the child is raised that makes a father and that its okay to hide the paternity from the child and from the biological father. If the DNA doesn’t matter then why lie about it in the first place? I’ve asked that question several times and I’m still waiting on an answer.
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” If the DNA doesn’t matter then why lie about it in the first place? I’ve asked that question several times and I’m still waiting on an answer.”
– I think the answer is that it makes the mother’s life easier. Which it obviously does. She doesn’t have to confess the truth either to the man she’s been duping or to the child she’s been lying to. She is spared the inconvenience of explaining the entire thing to relatives and friends. So who cares if the kid is deprived of knowing basic facts of his own existence if the mother can be spared all this inconvenience?
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It’s funny how even the most progressive folks tend to slip into the preachy tones of the most annoying among Bible-thumpers whenever it suits them to do so.(Clarissa)
Interesting, I thought Hugo was one of those Bible thumpers. Didnt he go from humping his students to thumping his bible? Im sure he will be alright though, afterall, he now has God in his corner. 😉
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Yes I vaguely remember that he is some kind of a preacher now.
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“Interesting, I thought Hugo was one of those Bible thumpers. Didnt he go from humping his students to thumping his bible? Im sure he will be alright though, afterall, he now has God in his corner.”
I recall this too and I didn’t always like the tone. I linked on the thread above and read some of the comments and I wondered why, given the article, that the comments were about forgiveness and then I remembered that so much of what he writes seems to be about his previous behaviors and the changes he has made, etc. The Christianity theme of forgiveness is central to that, and that subject is one that gets all muddled too.
I never hated him. I could feel irritated at him and see evidence of hypocrisy (which we all suffer from at times), and I most often feel angered by the lack of empathy that he seemed to demonstrate towards male victims. I could actually add a lot more to the list of as well, but will not.
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“It really bothers me that people identify so strongly with bloggers as to start seeing them in highly personal terms.”
A good many people behave this way even with people who they have basically very superficial knowledge of–like coworkers, being one example. They project. I feel this behavior is quite common. They may just identify with how he writes or particular subjects, but everything else has to do with them.
I didn’t hate Hugo’s guts, but I did read his blog and commented, even when I disagreed, and I also noticed that other commenters didn’t like my dissenting opinions. Oh well! I also thought that the group there tended to be quite judgemental too.
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“Got it? So unless you are either the person who has been wronged or God, you have no business expecting anybody’s repentance, believing or disbelieving it.”
But what if we are God? I mean while God apparently made rules how you should act, this individual is not here to teach us and punish us if we stray. Both is achieved through god-proxies (priest/preacher/whatever), random people who picked up the mantle of preacherhood. So if they can hand out judgement in the name of God, why can’t I?
I mean if God is in every one of us, does that not mean that I am, at least partly, God, too?
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He tried to KILL someone. My god, liberal feminism is fucking strange these days.
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1. You don’t know that. It is important to separate the writing from the person doing it.
2. Even if you were a juror at his trial, forgiving him or not wouldn’t be up to you.
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