Dear friends,
If you share my belief that the traditional gender roles, gender stereotypes and the expectations of gendered society have blighted your life and the lives of countless other people, please heed the following suggestion: stop promoting the narrative of how members of your gender have been oppressed by members of the other gender.
“Gender wars” are the best friend and the most dedicated ally of traditional and rigid gender systems. Every time you promote the narrative of a 100% oppressive and 100% victimized gender, you add one more brick into the wall that separates us all from the beautiful era when none of us will be defined by the shape of the genitals we were born with.
Clarissa's Blog 
I tend to believe that everyone is oppressed by traditional gender roles, it just varies by gender, race, class, etc. I do think women’s oppression is more pervasive and more visible, but that’s not to say that they are oppressed by Men as a category. Almost everyone perpetuates oppression in some way.
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I think it important – “as a man” – to speak to other men suggesting Our need to work with each other – other men – Because we’ve got plenty of s**t to work on and because working with other men on our issues and being allies of other men, if done in loving,caring ways can help us be happier, healthier people who can relate better to both women and men (as well as children). (sorry – my sentence was so long) Our roles as men are oppressive and we need to work to change them. Thanks!
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“Our roles as men are oppressive” what ?
Like, I am traumatizing women by breathing or walking in their no creep zone (which has 20000 meter radius) ?
Seriously, stop joking. Jezebel is the place where I go to read something like that.
It’s like in that old joke :
Berlin, 1932
An old Jew enters NSDAP headquaters and asks : “Hey, is it true that Jews are ruling the world and oppressing everyone ?”
“You are goddamn right !” Hitler replies.
“Great ! Where’s my share ?” old Jew asks.
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“their no creep zone”
– Funny. 🙂
I also appreciate the compliment of how my blog is not Jezebel.
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Youre getting there, pretty soon you wont need that nasty patriarchal term anymore. Its nice to see people growing. 🙂
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I think you are getting too fixated on the word.
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Sorry its a gender thing. 😉
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Let’s not slander all men!
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Lol. 🙂 🙂
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There’s a very funny patriarchy joke I have up my sleeve, which I use to impress people are parties when there’s silence.
Once upon a time, I had been brought up as a postmodernist and I didn’t believe in Patriarchy. Perhaps I believed in “patriarchies”. (hahaha).
Then, I received some workplace bullying. (hahaha!)
It was quite intense, and when I tried to get people to acknowledge it, or any kind of advice or realistic support, they said, I was too sensitive. (hahahaha!)
So, I worked on not being sensitive at all. I developed an attitude that if anybody told me of their troubles, they were really telling me a joke, and that I shouldn’t take it too seriously.
Then…(and here is the punchline), men in particular started to say that I was trying to make myself into a man… that I was confused about my identity and that I wanted to hurt people.
HAHAHAHAHA! (That’s the punchline!)
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@muster
It must be tiring thinking there is a conspiracy against you just because you are a woman. 😦
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Is that the conclusion you drew from my joke?
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This is a blog of people with no sense of humor, starting with me. I might yet get the joke a week or so from now.
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It’s not a very funny joke, Clarissa. Sometimes life isn’t all that funny, but it is nonetheless true and I think fate has a lot of black humor. Have you ever heard the expression, “work makes free”? It’s another example of black humor.
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Arbeit macht frei. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbeit_macht_frei
If you work very hard at not being “sensitive”, then “patriarchy” will not bother you anymore. In fact, you will be free of it. Just keep working away. We promise, it’s the path to freedom.
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I’ve checked it again, and I definitely didn’t mention a conspiracy.
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So, what kind of conspiracy against me are you saying there was?
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Bullies usually don’t need a reason to bully you, only an opportunity, reason is irrelevant, it’s just an excuse. And how it looked like ? Some examples ?
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I’m finding Wirbelwind’s comment to be very persuasive in favor of randomness and no meaning.
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@Muster
You do realize that it is you that needs to be free from your so called patriarchy. Afterall, it is you who thinks that you are oppressed by it. Im thinking I just need to be free to call out the ones who whine about how oppressed they are. You made me think of this funny comic, just change the word god for patriarchy. 😉
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@ muster
I just realized it must be the same feeling as when I hear the term Patriarchy. My condolences, I understand now. 😉
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You are the one who keeps repeating it, though. 🙂 What is it, a form of masochism? 🙂
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You keep posting it and I will keep referring to it. 🙂
You know, being that I am a masochist. 😉
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So, yes, in general, I hold that categories of identity ought to be challenged, undermined and ultimately destroyed. But weird behavior that employs categories of thinking, like the one that would assert “This is a woman believes in patriarchy, so let’s make her feel sorry for that,” should also be challenged, undermined (etc.) Ultimately all forms of psychological projection that push someone into an essentialist category should be targeted.
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Ultimately all forms of psychological projection that push someone into an essentialist category should be targeted.(muster)
Exactly the reason I target individuals who use gendered terms to talk about their oppression when it would be more beneficial to use non gendered terms.
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Why should other people trust your judgment on what is beneficial to them? What have you done to make yourself such an authority to them?
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@ Tit for Tat. you have been harping on the term “patriarchy” for as long as I have been reading Clarissa’s blog. You seem to not understand the term. Patriarchy essentially suggests a system that grants/ naturalizes male access to economic and political power. Look at world leaders, CEO’s, wielders of economic power, those in charge of investment and banking etc etc. By and large, the wealthy and politically powerful are (generally white) men. The very fact that women still persist in changing their last names suggests that women exist as items of economic exchange. (And of course there are some men that change their last names. But those men are few and far between and hardly count as a significant population.)
You can certainly argue that men are hurt by this hyper-naturalized connection between themselves and economic/political power. (I for one think that the social taboo against men showing emotion is connected to this.) You can argue that this system benefits women in some ways (for instance, women’s relegation to the private sphere has naturalized the connection between women and motherhood which translates in to women winning most custody battles.) And of course there are very wealthy women and very poor men. But it is a fact–not an opinion– that we live in a system in which men largely wield political and economic clout. And that system is called patriarchy.
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Can anybody answer the following questions without using the word patriarchy:
Why hasn’t a single president or vise-president of this country been a woman? The law of probability provides no answer.
Why is every wife of every president badgered into taking his name, like she has no identity of her own?
Why does every wife of every president have to be a housewife?
Why did the panel on female contraception consist of ugly old men and not a single woman?
Why does my 20 year old student write on the discussion board, “Since time immemorial, women did not work. Only men worked and provided for women and children”?
Why does the rest of the students become so stunned when I point out that women always worked?
Why did the threads on women changing their names when getting married provoke so much outrage?
Why does President Obama announce how he plans to control his daughters’ sexuality while his wife narrates how she controls their food intake and everybody finds that cute?
I have answered all of these questions very well with my post on the definition of the patriarchy. If people have an alternative system of beliefs that will answer them, feel free to share. But disagreement on this issue without providing some answers of your own is meaningless.
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But it is a fact–not an opinion– that we live in a system in which men largely wield political and economic clout. And that system is called patriarchy.(Evelina)
Certain men do have control. The term patriarchy inherently implies that all men control. The fact of the matter is that most dont. The fact is that there are certain women who have more control than most men in both those areas. My issue is the broad based way the term patriarchy is applied. It is sexist and outdated. The problem with that way of thinking is that it doesnt get to the root of power and how it is applied. Continue to genderize it and you do a disservice to both genders, the ones in power and the ones who are not.
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“The term patriarchy inherently implies that all men control”
– Yes, and the word “capitalism” implies that everybody in a capitalist country has capital.
“The fact is that there are certain women who have more control than most men in both those areas.”
– And their husbands and children bear their names? What is the percentage of those women, exactly?
“My issue is the broad based way the term patriarchy is applied.”
– Avoid the passive voice.
“The problem with that way of thinking is that it doesnt get to the root of power and how it is applied.”
– More passive voice. Tsk, tsk, tsk. 🙂 What is applied to whom?
” Continue to genderize it and you do a disservice to both genders, the ones in power and the ones who are not.”
– On a serious note, this discussion makes no sense until you define the term “power.”
Say, do you have a problem with the word “fatherhood”? Because it’s completely “genderized” AND has the same root as the word “patriarchy.”
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I can’t agree with the view that the way patriarchy is applied is always sexist and outdated. Sometimes it is applied in an educated way, and not as a slur. Indeed, the academic origins of this term are rigorous. Some people may use the term in an emotional way, but I am certain that when I present my views and they are dismissed without consideration for what I have said, the person who does not take into account my views and experiences is not avoiding doing so in order to be more rigorous. Rather they have emotional reasons for adopting their stance.
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Yes, and the word “capitalism” implies that everybody in a capitalist country has capital.
-And this means what? Patriarchy implies one gender is in control. Capitalism means we all have access.
And their husbands and children bear their names? What is the percentage of those women, exactly?
-In the democratic society in which we live this is the choice of the couple to decide. Hence the reason there are many who choose hyphenated names or just the mothers.
-Avoid the passive voice.
If you avoid the shrill. 😉
-More passive voice. Tsk, tsk, tsk. What is applied to whom?
Not again, shrill. 🙂 Control to the controlled.
-On a serious note, this discussion makes no sense until you define the term “power.”
Power as I see i,t is when there is an imbalance in a relationship where one individual or group makes the bulk of the decisions without input from others. Considering most of our power based groups have both male and females making those decisions a more appropriate term would be Kyriarchy. Patriarchy is incomplete and outdated, it also is offensive and sexist for many individuals.
-Say, do you have a problem with the word “fatherhood”? Because it’s completely “genderized” AND has the same root as the word “patriarchy.”
Fatherhood like Motherhood does not imply control or power. It is just a description of a relationship.
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“Patriarchy implies one gender is in control. ”
– In control of what? Let’s be done with these vague pronouncements and start talking more concretely.
“-In the democratic society in which we live this is the choice of the couple to decide. ”
– Do you have an explanation why, against the law of probabilities, the choice in almost every case is to ditch the woman’s name and adopt the man’s. I have an answer. It’s called patriarchy. Do you? Once again, I’d like a concrete response. How do you explain this phenomenon? Coincidence? Conspiracy of green-eyed aliens? There has to be some explanation, right?
“If you avoid the shrill.”
– I don’t understand this sentence. The excessive usage of the passive voice makes for weak, unconvincing writing. Please avoid it.
“Power as I see i,t is when there is an imbalance in a relationship where one individual or group makes the bulk of the decisions without input from others.”
– You don realize that this is the strangest definition of power ever? You are probably the only person in the world who equates power with making decision without input.
“Fatherhood like Motherhood does not imply control or power.”
– You are not serious?? Imagine a newborn. You are saying the mother and the father of that newborn are not ultra-powerful in his or her life? According to your own definition, they don;t get to make decisions about what that newborn will wear, where it will sleep, etc. without any input whatsoever from the newborn? Your own definition of power failed as soon as you offered it.
“Patriarchy is incomplete and outdated, it also is offensive and sexist for many individuals.”
– As for it being offensive, other people’s emotions are not my problem. As for the rest, you have not been able to prove it. Try again.
We are not kids on a playground. “Weeeee, this hurts my feelings” doesn’t work any longer. You need to be able to prove your point logically and reasonably. There are still 30+% of housewives in this country. There is still the absolute majority of women who consider themselves to be male property that passes hands from one man to another. Where is the patriarchy outdated? Compared to what, if LESS women work today than did hundreds of years ago.
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Rather they have emotional reasons for adopting their stance.(Muster)
All our views have an emotional aspect to them. We cannot disconnect the two.
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You know, if I really hated people, and heaven knows sometimes I do, I would say, “Yeah, sure. Go ahead and call it Kyriarchy.” Why should I be the one to care if you don’t get to the bottom of the problem? If your relationships break down because you don’t realize you are treating someone like a gender stereotype, that is perfectly fine by me. A nebulous and inoffensive term should be very useful in side-stepping the real issue.
I’m all for it.
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@Muster
I dont hate, sometimes I dislike but hate is a waste of energy. What I dislike is the fact that I live in a world(culture) that has many various forms of oppression. In my lifetime and experience those oppressions have been perpetrated by both typical genders that I outwardly see. Most people are not academics, so, when they hear the term Patriarchy they automatically assume male. Wouldnt it be better to have a term that has them asking what that means, as in Kyriarchy, then maybe you will get discourse on how we can make the world better by showing that everyone has a piece in it rather than just academics who like the term patriarchy and how they apply it. My issue is you expect me to understand your term as you see and apply it and yet you disregard how it does offend me and others. Call me sensitive if you like but I dislike gendered terms to describe a system that no longer fits the term. The only side stepping I see arent from my feet.
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” Most people are not academics, so, when they hear the term Patriarchy they automatically assume male.”
– Male what?
“Call me sensitive if you like but I dislike gendered terms to describe a system that no longer fits the term. ”
– For the 15th time, does not a significant percentage of men keep housewives and is not the entire society (in Canada, specifically) rigged towards the easy purchase of these housewives and the persecution of successful, working women. Before you respond, I remind you about the story of my sister as a business owner not entitled to a maternity leave. Tell me that this is not a direct effort by the government of Quebec to punish successful women. Tell me that this is not extremely discriminatory. Mind you, nobody deprives of male business owners from, say, medical care. Also, please respond if the system where the absolute majority of married women place themselves on their husband’s last name. I’d like specific answers, not vague rantings about how upset you are. If you say that the patriarchy does not exist any more, you need to be able to prove that with facts.
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I’ve spent about ten years, probably more, trying to communicate with Americans on the Internet, and I am resigned to the fact that there cultural reference points are just so different from mine as to make any effective communication impossible in most instances.
Of course there is “oppression”. But you will never get rid of it if you consider oppression to be nebulous. There must be some content to it. Also not all misfortunes are “oppression” — unfortunate, but true.
The issue of patriarchy is that of people treating each other as gender stereotypes. If that has never been your experience, then you don’t have an issue with patriarchy. There is also a high degree of possibility, due to the way patriarchy is systematized, that if you don’t have a problem with patriarchy, it is likely you are not one of patriarchy’s targets for oppression. You have power. You also have to conform to gender stereotyping. But, the upside is, you have power — therefore “patriarchy” isn’t an issue for you, some other form of oppression is.
Anyway, it’s not my calling in life to cater to anybody. It’s not my job to make people who aren’t “academics” (I’m not one myself) feel comfortable in the world. I’ve never been to America and I don’t intend to go there. Why it is my responsibility to make sure you are happy?
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Im Canadian.
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I’ve had a lot of interactions with misogynist Canadians. Aren’t they America’s poor cousins? Many of them seem to have nothing to do during the colder months but harass women with their truisms.
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And it begins…………………. 😦
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What begins? It “began” for me a long time ago — very long. I sense it is difficult for you to understand the content of what I am saying. I don’t know why. What I refer to has reality in objective time. I’m not sure what the problem is.
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You lost me at the “poor cousins” bit.
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(Gender is a social construction and has very little to do with genitalia.)
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@Clarissa
In a free democratic society if you are allowing yourself to be property then maybe they need to grow a spine, like you. 🙂
You want more female leaders, then you need to tell the majority sex to vote differently. Its 2012, I dont buy your patriarchy theory, especially considering you have the ability to vote it away if it is actually as bad as you make out. Fatherhood, last names, maternity leave, housewives………..these are major concerns. Suicide, education, alcoholism, homeless(on the streets), work related deaths, now if you were to talk about those things, well, oops, you cant, those are male issues. 😉
By the way your sister doesnt get maternity leave because she is self employed. As I am also I dont get paternity leave either. 😦
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“In a free democratic society if you are allowing yourself to be property then maybe they need to grow a spine, like you.
You want more female leaders, then you need to tell the majority sex to vote differently.”
– Note that you left my question as to why this happens unanswered.
” As I am also I dont get paternity leave either. ”
– I have an explanation for that: the patriarchal mentality. Do you?
“Suicide, education, alcoholism, homeless(on the streets), work related deaths, now if you were to talk about those things, well, oops, you cant, those are male issues.”
– I don’t understand what this means. If you know anybody who writes more about education than I do, please let me know. i think that’s hardly possible. As for suicide, I’ve been wanting to write about it for a while but I still haven;t found the courage. Something tells me I will be crucified for my opinions.
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As for suicide, I’ve been wanting to write about it for a while but I still haven;t found the courage. Something tells me I will be crucified for my opinions(Clarissa)
Tread lightly, some of us have had family members do it(successfully).
– Note that you left my question as to why this happens unanswered.
I didnt, look up, grow a spine. In this day and age with freedom to vote you have NO reason, plain and simple.
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” In this day and age with freedom to vote you have NO reason, plain and simple.”
– Yet people keep doing it. Do you suggest they are all irrational?
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Or unwilling to grow up and be responsible for their OWN actions. You know that, afterall you did.
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“Or unwilling to grow up and be responsible for their OWN actions.”
– Good, now we are getting somewhere. So why do so many women willingly infantilize themselves and what do we call a society that encourages female self-infantilization while punishing it in men?
As one of my students wrote yesterday, ‘In our society, men have most of the responsibilities and most of the respect.” What do we call such a system?
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As one of my students wrote yesterday, ‘In our society, men have most of the responsibilities and most of the respect.” What do we call such a system?
I dont agree or believe her. In my world that is not the case. Nor is it the case in my daughter’s world.
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” In my world that is not the case. Nor is it the case in my daughter’s world.”
– A father speaking for his daughter. . . Hmm, what do we call that? 🙂
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Lmao, fatherhood…………… 🙂 🙂 🙂
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Let’s not slander fatherhood.
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I would have emphatically agreed with you if it was the 1920’s, you probably still could have had me in the 1960’s. Stretching it a little further I would have given you the benefit of the doubt in the 1980’s, but, sorry, it is now 2012 and the excuses are over.
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Though I definately understand the plight of Afghani women under the repressively patriarchal rule of the Taliban.
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“Suicide, education, alcoholism, homeless(on the streets), work related deaths, now if you were to talk about those things, well, oops, you cant, those are male issues.”
Sure you can talk about them. There is a whole new emerging field of masculinity studies that talks about those things. However, those who study masculinity/masculine constructions and/or focus on the problems men face still acknowledge the problem of patriarchy. The things you list above are the results of a patriarchal society. And actually it’s feminists and gender theorists who are on the forefront of examining/acknowledging those problems.
“Power as I see it is when there is an imbalance in a relationship where one individual or group makes the bulk of the decisions without input from others. Considering most of our power based groups have both male and females making those decisions.”
Sure. I accept your definition of power. But where do you see women involved in this process in anything resembling an equal way? Every center of political and economic power is populated by men. There are some women in there sometimes…..but not many. Again think of presidents/prime ministers/ governors/, Wall St, the United Nations, the World Bank, presidents of finanical institutions, CEO’s of Fortune 500 companies, heads of majors Churches, etc etc etc: every single one of those major institutions are populated by men. Men who are making decisions that effect women.
Overall, I agree with Muster…..your refusal to see that men hold political and economic power indicates that you must be benefitting from patriarchy in a fundamental way and are unwilling to surrender that power. Again, patriarchy hurts men in some ways. But men hold political and economic authority in the West and throughout most of the world.
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your refusal to see that men hold political and economic power (Evelina)
Some men, not all men. Patriarchy implies that all men benefit. Your unwillingness to let go of outdated modes of thinking show me that you must benefit from the “patriarchal” idea much more than I. Hopefully you wont be calling me the poor cousin like Muster.
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@Evelina
This woman blogger details it so much better than I.
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What a lying jerk your woman blogger is. When exactly have I demonized “men” and complained of objectification and male gaze?
It’s horrible to be slandered in this way.
Please tell me what the difference between “some feminists do this ergo all feminists do” and “some men rape ergo all men are rapists” is.
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@ Clarissa
Um, I think you should re read this part.
If you are a feminist but do not subscribe to any of these assumptions/beliefs, then let me know. But I expect there is not one feminist who doesn’t broadly speaking accept these tenets:
Do you not suscribe to ANY of the beliefs she listed or just the objectification part??
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I disagree with every single word, yet I’m a feminist. The only part I agree with is: “Feminists are able to look with contempt and/or pity on non-feminist women.” I do contempt really well and I reserve my right to despise absolutely anybody I want. 🙂
I blogged about this specific post before but I can’t find a link right now.
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This blog (and the comments) have left me a lot to think about…I almost don’t want to comment! I have seen some people go round and round though and felt like throwing a few things into the mix. I should point out, I’m not an expert (I like words, that’s all); I am just observing. I have nothing in psychology or cultural theory or whatnot.
I think people get very upset over these topics (patriarchy, power). I do. I have started to try to understand the feelings rather than just logic them away.
That having been said…
Patriarchy can mean a lot of things. I saw the word shift as different people wielded it. Sometimes they started a comment with a historical comment and ended with a more academic view. Patriarchy as “a system in which most of the power is held by males” is not really the same term as patriarchy as “men must be made to feel remorse and right wrongs which are done to women.” I won’t go into the various shades of meaning the term has taken, but if someone got angry right below your post, you probably used a different definition.
I see titfortat’s view. I also see musteryou’s view. In calling the system a “patriarchy”, it subtly (or not so subtly) demands that men answer the question, “and what do you have to say for yourself?” To deny that power exists in the hands of males is naive. To leap from the one viewpoint to the other automatically seems…hasty. I can see that males feel irked at being blamed; females feel angry for lacking power. I’m sure there are lots of other feelings I’m leaving out. I would ask men to understand that women have real feelings here (and points) and will not be talked out of them by rhetoric. Women, I would ask you to understand that sometimes your language makes it sound like you are blaming all men (some feminists do — I have actually been told to “go take a class in feminism”…if I told them to “go take a class in logic” would that have been misogyny?). I think taking a step back from blaming and discussing between genders is good.
I think the view that “men who disagree with me profit from the system; that’s why they perpetuate it” is…well, naive. That is saying that EVERY man who does not accept your view of “what must be done” tries to keep men in power? A convenient theory. I don’t buy it. (The main reason I don’t is because I do not want to “keep men in power”, but often find myself disagreeing with these statements; ergo, the view is not universally true.)
Finally, to give a thought on Clarissa’s original statement — “Why do women keep changing names/why to men mostly represent in government/etc.” (forgive me for abbreviating — this comment is too long already) — one possibility is “cultural inertia”. Our culture (I mean in America) IS changing; but change happens slowly. Some of the education from 50 years ago kept women out of certain fields…now they are getting better education in (say) math and science, but it doesn’t happen overnight. A lot of women I know change their name because “that’s just how it is done”…I don’t really sense a huge conspiracy here but rather the vestiges of an old system. Some people think “marriage” itself is the vestige of an old system, yet we keep it. Am I suggesting that everything is perfect? Of course not. I know plenty of men who think women are not as qualified in certain fields or to do certain things. I find fewer and fewer of those types of men every year. I think our culture IS changing.
Of course, I think we are replacing those old prejudices with new ones…but that is another story altogether.
I am sorry this is so long. I also said “I think” a lot…I could be 100% wrong.
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“I don’t really sense a huge conspiracy”
– Neither do I. 🙂 There was a thread about name-changing on this blog, and the amount of rage that women displayed when I criticized name-changing was stunning. It isn’t just inertia. This is a way of identity-building and its also an issue of financial entitlement.
” I know plenty of men who think women are not as qualified in certain fields or to do certain things.”
– And vice versa.
“I am sorry this is so long. ”
– Not a problem. We have a lot of space here. 🙂
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