I took a short break from the blog and, after coming back, discovered that people want to talk about the developments in the Israeli-Palestinian crisis. Everywhere on the Internet, bunches of mentally disturbed people use the conflict to exhibit their own, completely unrelated pathologies. Compared to most online spaces I’m aware of, we are a haven of psychological health here. So if readers want to talk about Israel / Palestine here, I’m open to that.
Since most people in the world (and I’m being generous with “most”, I think it’s more than that) dislike either the Jews or the Arabs (or, even more frequently, both), the Israeli-Palestinian hostilities give everybody a way to act out these feelings in a socially and psychologically safe context. Observe how the Russia-Ukraine conflict never elicits the same intensely emotional response in anybody who is not Russian or Ukrainian. There are nuclear weapons present in both conflicts, but just ask yourself who is scarier to you personally, the enormous Russia with its anti-West hysteria of ridiculous proportions or the tiny Israel / helpless Hamas. If the answer is the latter (and you don’t live in the conflict zone in question), see above on the subject of pathologies.
The current eruption of the Israeli-Palestinian crisis is not being analyzed intelligently or insightfully anywhere. And I’ve read a lot of stuff on it, in a lot of very different places*. There is something going on that we don’t know, and all the mass hysteria is simply obscuring that fact. Both sides are trying harder than ever to ensure the hostilities don’t abate. By both sides I, of course, don’t mean the regular folks both in Israel and Palestine who just want to live their lives. But Hamas breaks the cease-fire almost as soon as it’s declared while Israelis shell a beach where kids are playing, as if bent on ensuring that Hamas retaliates even harder than it has been. And I believe I could have easily dropped the “as if” from the previous sentence.
We should all be collectively and massively grateful to Israelis and Palestinians for providing us with regular opportunities to expel the bile of racism, contempt and hatred while feeling self-righteous and moral. Every article and book I have ever read on the subject of the conflict screams, “I’m so better than these hopelessly vile creatures!” Of course, the only way in which anybody is “better” than Palestinians and Israelis is that one’s ancestors did the dirty work of nation-building a while ago, thereby allowing one to feel hugely superior to those whose progenitors were not as considerate.
In every class, there is an official trouble-maker whose unspoken duty is to come up with a prank at the time when everybody needs it. In every collective, there is an evil-doer, loser, bad-ass or trouble-maker whose “job” it is to embody the badness others can’t afford to practice. Any permanent role, any chronic situation exists because everybody involved – everybody, I repeat – needs it.
So let’s stop congratulating ourselves on being so much better than the direct participants in the conflict and ask ourselves, “Why do we need this conflict right now? What purpose is it serving for us at this particular moment?” I have a tentative answer that I will offer later but what really matters is that the discussion of the conflict starts to be reoriented away from “those bad, evil them” towards ourselves.
* For now, the most idiotic piece on the conflict I have seen is this one. Feel free to share the links that impressed you.
Clarissa's Blog 
This comment seems extremely insightful:
In every class, there is an official trouble-maker whose unspoken duty is to come up with a prank at the time when everybody needs it. In every collective, there is an evil-doer, loser, bad-ass or trouble-maker whose “job” it is to embody the badness others can’t afford to practice. Any permanent role, any chronic situation exists because everybody involved – everybody, I repeat – needs it.
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If only people in every workplace remembered this and turned to look at themselves every time they attack the group’s “bad apple.”
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Ah, yes, but from “bad apple” it isn’t far to a Rescue situation in the spirit of Eric Berne and Claude Steiner, is it?
One “bad apple” and the groups in therapy want to ditch the therapy, yes?
Two words come to mind: dishonest contracts.
Since I enjoy Modest Proposals and try to present them whenever possible, I present a Modest Proposal in this case: let those outside the conflict benefit the most from it, because nobody inside the conflict seems to be able to use their one-up potentialities for escape.
When any advantage from inside or outside the conflict has been exhausted, perhaps the therapy will work considerably better. After all, if the parties involved can’t one-up each other because they no longer can access the resources of others to do so, they might begin to seek forming valid contracts for help.
The really evil characters in this melodrama are, of course, the Pig Parents who simply want to have access to a seemingly endless flow of “bad apples” who will allow them to enjoy turns at various Persecutor and Victim games.
Look what that “bad apple” made us do!
Hey, let’s pull a fast one on Netanyahu!
You’ll be glad ya know me when you’re at the bargaining table, Ariel!
This conference is breaking down!
[both parties slam doors and go to their respective rooms]
TEAR DOWN THIS WALL
🙂
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The “yes, but” game that always happens whenever the issue is discussed is more of Berne’s purview. 🙂
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You assume that “we” do not really want this conflict to be resolved. I think that is an interesting angle. But I am just wondering: What would happen if “we” or say “the world leaders” suddenly really wanted this conflict to be resolved? Would this really mean that it would be resolved? How would they make that happen?
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No, no, the “we” here are we. All of us. This is not on any leaders.
The actual conflict could be resolved if we – the people who would suddenly stop needing it – were to welcome everybody from the conflict zone to come and live among us. I already asked this question (and got a deafening silence in response): among everybody who vociferates about how they care about Palestinians, how much money and time are they personally willing to invest to bring over, say, 500 Palestinian families to their town and make them welcome.
So far I have found exactly 1 person interested in this possibility, and that is me. But I keep hoping.
Of course, the collective unconscious will immediately find another scapegoat once this one leaves the house.
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// The actual conflict could be resolved if we – the people who would suddenly stop needing it – were to welcome everybody from the conflict zone to come and live among us.
“everybody” = “all Palestinians from Gaza and Palestinian Authority”, right? However, from wiki:
“The Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics (PCBS) estimated Palestinians at mid year 2009 as 10.7 million persons as follows: 3.9 million in the Palestinian Territory (36.6%), 1.2 million (11.5%) in Israel; 5.0 million in Arab countries (46.2%), 0.6 million in foreign countries (5.7%).”
I don’t think you are right here since West can’t accept everybody: Palestinians, Syrian refugees, hungry third world citizens in general, etc.
People in Western countries are human too, not angels, and don’t want too many foreighners among them. It’s also economically impossible. Btw, how does your desire to accept millions of Palestinians (why not all Syrian refugees too?) go with being against Western policy of inviting immigrants who, in your words, reproduce “like bunnies” and support women’s rights by wearing hijab?
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““everybody” = “all Palestinians from Gaza and Palestinian Authority”, right?”
– Everybody from the conflict zone.
“I don’t think you are right here since West can’t accept everybody: Palestinians, Syrian refugees, hungry third world citizens in general, etc.”
– I’m speaking of this specific conflict zone. The third world has nothing to do with it. Israel isn’t even part of it.
“Btw, how does your desire to accept millions of Palestinians (why not all Syrian refugees too?) go with being against Western policy of inviting immigrants who, in your words, reproduce “like bunnies” and support women’s rights by wearing hijab”
– This is a conflict that has been the biggest international issue for everybody for decades (unlike the short-lived and non-threatening to anybody outside the area Syrian conflict.) And I mention people locally investing time and money precisely so that the ghettoization and spread of barbarity can be offset by local civilizational efforts. If immigrants are integrated into local communities and not allowed to ghettoize, they dump all those burqas in a flash.
People are saying they are SO worried about Palestinians / Israelis. All I’m asking is for them to put their time and money where their mouths are. If it’s too expensive / hard, they can shut up about their impotent “caring.”
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And maybe the conflict between Ukraine and Russia would be resolved if we welcomed all Ukrainians to live among us, and just let Russia have Ukraine? You don’t think the Palestinians actually want to live in their home country? This is really your answer? Displacing people from their homes?
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I wonder about this. If there was a fund to which everyone who feels sorry for the Palestinians in Gaza strip could donate some money in order to relocate those Palestinians who would like to leave to other countries and give them a new start, don’t you think people would actually donate? But is this politically even possible, and would the Palestinians really want to leave, or do they want to get back their land? Would Israel allow them to leave?
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“If there was a fund to which everyone who feels sorry for the Palestinians in Gaza strip could donate some money in order to relocate those Palestinians who would like to leave to other countries and give them a new start, don’t you think people would actually donate”
– This doesn’t require guilt-money to be deposited somewhere far away. This solution requires bringing people from the conflict zone to live next to one’s own house.
“But is this politically even possible, and would the Palestinians really want to leave, or do they want to get back their land?”
– Let’s not demonize Palestinians. 🙂
“Would Israel allow them to leave?”
– Let’s not demonize Israelis. 🙂
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“You assume that “we” do not really want this conflict to be resolved”
Imagine what the situation would be like if people able to resolve the conflict (on all sides) did not want to resolve it but to prolong it as long as possible while occasionally paying lip service to the idea of finding a ‘peaceful solution’. Then compare that with what’s going on and solve for the differences (that is, zero).
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“Imagine what the situation would be like if people able to resolve the conflict (on all sides) did not want to resolve it but to prolong it as long as possible while occasionally paying lip service to the idea of finding a ‘peaceful solution’. Then compare that with what’s going on and solve for the differences (that is, zero).”
– Exactly. The game of “yes but” always begins the moment anybody tries to think of a solution.
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Of course, in a way Israel is the force of colonialism, which people who feel sensitive in the Western world desire to take steps to dissociate themselves from. One wants to identify overtly with the oppressed and downtrodden, so it is useful if they continue to suffer anguish and keep being oppressed and smashed. One can pulverize the feeling of one’s own Western conceit in that way and feel maschostically alleviated of one’s psychological burdens. It’s a terrible, terrible thing to be the benefactor of colonial power — which all Americans, British and Australians are, in a way. To purge oneself of that sense of guilt by suffering masochistically, alongside the pulverized (at least in the imagination) is therefore thought a boon. Otherwise one may be tempted to flip over and become like Israel, terrorising one’s own native peoples, and scaring away migrants. Therefore an external representation of the whip is always helpful. I’m sure you will all join me in suffering the trials and tribulations that are afflicted on the weak, in the spirit of Hamas, which really means well and embodies the meaning of human freedom and extreme purity. It really doesn’t matter what their ideology is. I, for one, identify with them as one of the smashed. And those who will not do so, represent only the flipside of me, because that is all that remains for them to represent!
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“One wants to identify overtly with the oppressed and downtrodden, so it is useful if they continue to suffer anguish and keep being oppressed and smashed. One can pulverize the feeling of one’s own Western conceit in that way and feel maschostically alleviated of one’s psychological burdens.”
– Exactly!
“Otherwise one may be tempted to flip over and become like Israel, terrorising one’s own native peoples, and scaring away migrants.”
– Because Israel is totally the only place that does this. 🙂
“Therefore an external representation of the whip is always helpful. I’m sure you will all join me in suffering the trials and tribulations that are afflicted on the weak, in the spirit of Hamas, which really means well and embodies the meaning of human freedom and extreme purity. It really doesn’t matter what their ideology is. I, for one, identify with them as one of the smashed. And those who will not do so, represent only the flipside of me, because that is all that remains for them to represent!”
– Absolutely. As a character in an old Soviet movie said, “Happiness is being understood.” 🙂
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// There is something going on that we don’t know, and all the mass hysteria is simply obscuring that fact.
I understand only a small part of it, here what I know about Hamas’s motives:
[from “Blockade of the Gaza Strip” in wiki] “In 2013-2014, Egypt’s military has destroyed most of the 1,200 tunnels which are used for smuggling food, weapons and other goods to Gaza.”
From articles:
“Egypt destroys 1370 Gaza smuggling tunnels”
“Egypt to Hamas: Smuggling tunnels will be shut entirely” – Feb 28, 2014
Article from Feb 19, 2013 but what it describes is also relevant today:
The Hamas government had come to rely heavily on the taxes and tariffs imposed on goods flowing through the crossings with Israel and the tunnels with Egypt to cover monthly costs and payments for governance, especially after the waning of international funding, especially from Iran.
The amount of goods entering Gaza through the tunnels had been equal to that coming in through the crossings with Israel. The Hamas government taxes the majority of the Egyptian products to raise revenue, while the taxes on the Israeli supplies, including basic goods, go to the government in Ramallah.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/07/hamas-financial-crisis-gaza-egypt-morsi.html##ixzz37k4C65IY
From what I read somewhere in Israeli press, Hamas was in a bad situation from numerous angles, which was what moved it to join Abbas in united Palestinian government in the 1st place. Kidnapping the three teens would’ve improved Hamas’s situation, but the bodies were found by Israel in time.
As for Israel, our leaders were extremely against formation of Palestinian unity government. I think they sincerely believe it would help Palestinians achieve their goal of creating a country without agreeing to peace with Israel. This escalation would hurt unity government’s and Hamas’s position in the world, if Israeli wins propaganda war.
Also, today’s government is very Right wing (Israeli governments have been (mostly?) Right for decades) and Netanyahu wouldn’t be able to sign any peace agreement w/o creating a very different government. Whether it would be possible at all is another question. I don’t think most Israelis today would believe to Palestinian promises, let alone support giving up something important (land, part of Jerusalem, etc.) for them.
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In addition to the colonization, Israel also serves to make people feel better (maybe less bad is a better term) about WWII and the holocaust.
Jews, it turns out, are not perpetual saintly victims but are in fact normal human beings who will react to agression with agression and violence in return, given the opportunity.
Similarly, in addition to the colonization narrative musteryou lays out (very accurately imo) there’s another flip side as ‘compassion’ for Palestinians usually comes with massive amounts of condescension (and doesn’t neccesarily survive close attention paid to Palestinian rhetoric and/or actions). The fecklessness and alien violence that Palestinians erupt in also serve as a kind of justification for imperialism – look at what they do when they’re left to their own devices!
(disclaimer – these aren’t my own opinions but more what I get from listening between the lines to the traditional rhetoric on different sides)
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“Similarly, in addition to the colonization narrative musteryou lays out (very accurately imo) there’s another flip side as ‘compassion’ for Palestinians usually comes with massive amounts of condescension (and doesn’t neccesarily survive close attention paid to Palestinian rhetoric and/or actions). The fecklessness and alien violence that Palestinians erupt in also serve as a kind of justification for imperialism – look at what they do when they’re left to their own devices!”
– I agree completely.
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As always, there’s so much to think about in your post. Thank you.
“Of course, the only way in which anybody is “better” than Palestinians and Israelis is that one’s ancestors did the dirty work of nation-building a while ago, thereby allowing one to feel hugely superior to those whose progenitors were not as considerate.”
This part, I do not get, though. As an analogy, can a slave-trading nation use the history of the United States as an excuse to continue the practice? ‘Hey, you guys did it too!’
You chide us for ‘feeling superior’ to Israel/Palestine but I see you (and musteryou) do the same, except you feel superior to anyone ‘taking sides’ in this conflict. That is all. The things you care about, it’s all ‘spread the word, sign this petition, tell your friends, etc.’, whereas the things you do not care about, you throw meaningless gauntlets (sponsor a palestinian family or shut the fuck up) or ask us to look deep inside us to understand why we care about X when there is bigger cause Y looming upon us (as an aside, given any issue, it’s trivially easy to construct a greater, more urgent issue).
‘will all join me in suffering the trials and tribulations that are afflicted on the weak, in the spirit of Hamas, which really means well and embodies the meaning of human freedom and extreme purity. It really doesn’t matter what their ideology is. I, for one, identify with them as one of the smashed.’
Wow, that was hot garbage. I bet you felt really superior constructing this strawman. Yeah, westerners who oppose Israeli actions really think that Hamas represents purity and freedom. Great analysis.
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“As an analogy, can a slave-trading nation use the history of the United States as an excuse to continue the practice? ‘Hey, you guys did it too!’”
– I’m always very bugged by Americans who vociferate against racism elsewhere while being very racist to their own neighbors.
“You chide us for ‘feeling superior’ to Israel/Palestine but I see you (and musteryou) do the same, except you feel superior to anyone ‘taking sides’ in this conflict.”
– I never said I had anything against feeling superior. I’m only against undeserved superiority. 🙂
“The things you care about, it’s all ‘spread the word, sign this petition, tell your friends, etc.’, whereas the things you do not care about, you throw meaningless gauntlets (sponsor a palestinian family or shut the fuck up) or ask us to look deep inside us to understand why we care about X when there is bigger cause Y looming upon us (as an aside, given any issue, it’s trivially easy to construct a greater, more urgent issue).”
– At least, I have actual suggestions. And I think these are good, practicable suggestions. Do you have any? Don’t shut the fuck up, share them. I’m interested.
“Yeah, westerners who oppose Israeli actions really think that Hamas represents purity and freedom.”
– I’ve met people who said this word for word, actually.
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A friend of mine used to say that the Israel/Palastine conflict would resolve itself if all outside intervention would be stopped for a year or so. And I think she was partly right. This conflict stretches much farther than just a fight for ground to build on. It is about moral superiority.
In this day and age, wars require a good and a bad party, and they don’t end until one of them managed to establish themselves as the good guys. Established in our eyes. That is, the rest of the world. Or at least those, whose opinion count.
And I don’t think all the money spend to defend Israel/Palestine elsewhere in the world does not help either.
I do think that we massively profit from this conflict, in that it keeps us tired of war. This conflict has been waging and waning for years and has dragged out into a cruel stallmate* with little hope of resolve. And we profit from it because we can look at it at any time as a convenient little reminder that conflict is not something to thrive for. It’s like one of those post-its on your fridge, reminding you to buy milk on your way home from work.
*Well, at least somewhat. The Israelis position is a lot stronger than the Palestines, but their situations isn’t less crap for that.
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“A friend of mine used to say that the Israel/Palastine conflict would resolve itself if all outside intervention would be stopped for a year or so.”
– I don’t see this possibility. If the Palestinians were massively and collectively removed to live happily ever after, say, in Southern Illinois, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Israel would soon find a new mortal foe to combat in the region. This is how nation-building works.
“I do think that we massively profit from this conflict, in that it keeps us tired of war. This conflict has been waging and waning for years and has dragged out into a cruel stallmate* with little hope of resolve. And we profit from it because we can look at it at any time as a convenient little reminder that conflict is not something to thrive for. It’s like one of those post-its on your fridge, reminding you to buy milk on your way home from work.”
– Absolutely. This is one of the many secondary benefits everybody is deriving from the conflict.
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\\ “Would Israel allow them to leave?”
To USA and other countries? What a strange question. Israel would be very glad to allow them to leave, I think Israel would be ready to pay them to leave.
From 2013:
“Likud’s most far-right figure proposes paying each Palestinian family in West Bank $500,000 to move to West”
“Polls conducted in Gaza and Judea and Samaria show that 80% (of Palestinians) in Gaza and 65% (of Palestinians) in Judea and Samaria want to emmigrate. We have here the perfect solution. ”
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4327557,00.html
Meanwhile, ” IDF ground operation underway in Gaza ” and ” Egyptian FM: Hamas could have saved many lives by accepting our truce proposal. “
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Everybody is into pitying Palestinians at a distance but whenever I mention welcoming them here, I become the evil-doer who has no compassion.
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Everybody loves Zimbabweans too, but those that love them the best never Facebook friend them. After all, who could deal with such crudeness and third world manners?
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El, here is where my strange question comes from. I have read in the news about a Palestinian guy (I think an University professor) living with his family in the Gaza strip desperately wanting to leave, but not being able to, since (as I understood it) the borders in all directions are closed. Wouldn’t he have to be able to leave in order to be recognized as refugee in another country? It is the same with the Syrian refugees that are arriving in Italy in big numbers at the moment. Italy is not getting them out, they have to get out themselves, and then maybe they get refugee status. Of course, I don’t know if people from the Gaza strip would be classified as refugees in Europe. I think they should be, like the Syrians, and I would be in favour of my country taking in some of those refugees, as I imagine many other people in Europe reading about the conflict in the news are.
The idea of Israel paying Palestinians 500’000 dollars in order to start anew in a new country is certainly better than what they are trying now. Why is this not followed upon? I would assume that many countries wouldn’t mind taking in refugees that own 500’000 dollars to start with.
But anyway, I don’t really understand why it makes sense to end a war by removing one of its parties and bringing them to other countries. Why not finally agree to a two-state solution? What is the biggest obstacle to this? I don’t see how other countries are to blame for this, countless foreign politicians seem to have tried to make this happen but it always failed.
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Declaring a new phase in its operation, Israel’s military said it was entering the coastal strip to wipe out Hamas’s rocket capabilities and to dismantle what is believed to be an extensive network of tunnels used by the militants to infiltrate Israel.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/gaza-residents-scramble-to-make-most-of-five-hour-truce/2014/07/17/e5485fce-0d7e-11e4-8341-b8072b1e7348_story.html
// For now, the most idiotic piece on the conflict I have seen is this one.
I think reading some Israeli English news sites is a way to learn about what people in Israel think, could be done together with reading Palestinian / Arab sites. I learned from them about Hamas’s closed tunnels, f.e.
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There is now an entire conspiracy theory about Putin getting the Hamas to start this round of hostilities to distract attention from Ukraine. I think the theory is bunk, of course.
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“At least, I have actual suggestions. And I think these are good, practicable suggestions. Do you have any? Don’t shut the fuck up, share them. I’m interested. ”
Ok, here goes my suggestions. Apologies for copying them directly from you.
Listen up kids, write to your congressmen and congresswomen about these atrocities, sign petitions condemning Israel’s actions, and spread the word among your friends.
There. Now am I allowed to condemn Israel’s actions?
You’re such a passionate person with very strong positions on everything, so it’s very strange to read consistently weaksauce ‘mistakes have been made by both sides’ utterances from you. But hey, congratulations on being above it all. Nothing to see here, folks. Just some old-fashioned nation-building going on here. Move along.
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I don’t trade in sarcasm. It bores me, I never see the point people try to convey with it. Are you saying that condemnation will achieve something here that analysis will not? There’s been a lot of condemnation, oceans of condemnation but zero progress in any direction. Do you believe mistakes were not made by both sides? If so, I agree. There are no mistakes, just very calculated policies. Do you believe this is not nation-building? Or that there can be nation-building that works in a different way? Then why are there no recorded cases in human history?
For a very long time, I’ve been trying to find somebody who’d discuss Israel / Palestine with me. But such people don’t exist. There doesn’t seem to be a single person who wants to have any discussion of this beyond “let’s hate the bad guys and pity the good guys.” I’ve been trying not to read anything into this for many years. But I can’t refuse to see the obvious for much longer. And the obvious is: nobody cares.
Neither are you all that interested, it seems. All you want to hear is a condemnation, and after that it’s “nothing to see here, move along.”
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Let’s take an example from this post here: https://clarissasblog.com/2014/05/04/lets-help-ukraine/
To someone, who was (perhaps unnecessarily) critical of your post, you say this:
“Thank you for the support! I’m generally deeply disappointed with the reaction I got to this post. It’s OK not to sign the petition, it isn’t like I know who signed and who didn’t. But the complete incapacity of many people to understand that this is a deeply painful issue and that their “opinions” are not likely to be appreciated when my people are dying at the hands of invaders is very disappointing to me.”
Now, both you and I know, signing a petition condemning Putin would do absolutely nothing but there you were. I’m sure there was some psychological satisfaction you must’ve derived from calling Russia a terrorist state. I’m also sure the more people who signed that, the more happy you would be.
I’m curious as to why you would absolutely *shit upon* someone who dared to do the same in this case. In the end, we’re both indulging in impotent rage, as you like to call it.
I sympathized with how you felt in that post. Your people are being murdered, and here comes some callous asshole questioning the news accounts, minimizing the tragedy. I’d be pissed too if I heard more of ‘Hey clarissa, geopolitics is a brutal game, Russia is just pursuing its interests, shit happens, nation building, propaganda from both sides, who do we trust, blah blah.’
But you’re doing EXACTLY the same here. For instance, I’ve never seen you call the indiscriminate killings of Palestinian civilians ‘murder’. It’s always this sanitized language of ‘nation building, profoundly sad, painful, etc.’
I mean, come the fuck on!
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“Now, both you and I know, signing a petition condemning Putin would do absolutely nothing but there you were.”
– Of course. I said it at the time, and I keep saying it. And I was right, too. The petition gathered more signatures than it needed. The result was nil, just as I predicted.
“I’m sure there was some psychological satisfaction you must’ve derived from calling Russia a terrorist state.”
– Of course, there was. Why are we stating all these painfully obvious facts?
“I’m curious as to why you would absolutely *shit upon* someone who dared to do the same in this case.”
– All I did was say that petitions – both about Israel and about Ukraine – are completely and utterly useless in terms of doing anything other than bringing psychological benefits for those who sign. But of course, I wouldn’t go to the blogs of people who start any pro-Israel or pro-Palestine petitions to “educate” them about the uselessness of their actions.
“I’d be pissed too if I heard more of ‘Hey clarissa, geopolitics is a brutal game, Russia is just pursuing its interests, shit happens, nation building, propaganda from both sides, who do we trust, blah blah.’”
– I would be overjoyed if anybody discussed what is happening in Ukraine with me in terms of nation-building. I’m into the subject of nation-building. It interests me obsessively. But the discussion has to avoid the word “geopolitics” because that immediately bores me.
“For instance, I’ve never seen you call the indiscriminate killings of Palestinian civilians ‘murder’.”
– No, let’s be really honest here. You want me to call ONLY the indiscriminate killings of Palestinian civilians ‘murder’, without adding that indiscriminate killings of Jewish civilians are murder, too. Because if I don’t say that one set of murders is worse than the other, then the discussion of “bad guys vs good guys” isn’t happening. Of course, I will be very happy to be mistaken. Let’s try this. Israelis have committed horrible, inexcusable, vicious murders of Palestinians. Palestinians have committed horrible, inexcusable, vicious murders of Jews. Is that what you wanted to hear?
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“You want me to call ONLY the indiscriminate killings of Palestinian civilians ‘murder’, without adding that indiscriminate killings of Jewish civilians are murder, too.”
Nope. That is your projection.
“Let’s try this. Israelis have committed horrible, inexcusable, vicious murders of Palestinians. Palestinians have committed horrible, inexcusable, vicious murders of Jews.”
Any comment of proportionality of the crimes, perhaps?
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‘Nope. That is your projection.”
– I’m sincerely happy to hear that. Now that we have condemned these truly horrible crimes, I still hope we can discuss what could happen for these crimes to stop being committed. Otherwise, this will turn into one of the abundant “those savages will keep butchering each other anyway” discussions.
“Any comment of proportionality of the crimes, perhaps?”
– I don’t want to project again, so you will have to make the question clearer.
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Oh, the vast majority of people are sick and tired of this fucking conflict. Maybe this would stop if the terrorist State of Israel and the Zionist corporate lobbies stop to use the exaggerated amplitude of the so-called “Holocaust” (with the main crime weapon still unproven today) to justify their crimes and if the Occidental terrorists stop to support both the sionist terrorists and the islamic terrorists. With that, the islamo-fascist Hamas would have no legitimity and no credibility whatsoever.
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David, enough with this Holocaust-denialism, seriously.
“With that, the islamo-fascist Hamas would have no legitimity and no credibility whatsoever.”
– You can’t be that naive.
“Oh, the vast majority of people are sick and tired of this fucking conflict.”
– How convenient for them.
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// “Oh, the vast majority of people are sick and tired of this fucking conflict.”
– How convenient for them.
I am sick and tired too, but it isn’t convenient, unfortunately. 😦
Btw, RE Netanyahu, I think he is one of most moderate people in today’s Israeli ruling government (not including opposition). May be, he really didn’t want ground operation. I can’t be sure.
From http://www.ynetnews.com/
“An IDF soldier was killed in the early hours of Friday and five other soldiers sustained light to moderate wounds in separate incidents. Palestinian officials say that at least 24 Gazans have been killed since the ground operation began, including three children.”
“‘Abbas has embraced Netanyahu’s position on Gaza,’ Hamas spokesperson says after Palestinian president condemns Gaza op but urges calm.”
“Cabinet convenes to discuss Gaza operation; Netanyahu: IDF ordered to prepare for possibility of significantly widening ground operation.”
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‘I am sick and tired too, but it isn’t convenient, unfortunately.”
– You have the right to be sick and tired. David, who is sitting in a perfectly safe, beautiful, manicured area of the world, doesn’t.
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That’s what this post needed, David Gendron, being David Gendron.
I’m outta here, folks!
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No problem, coward!
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“Any comment of proportionality of the crimes, perhaps?”
– I don’t want to project again, so you will have to make the question clearer.
I think its about number of killed and injured not being approximately the same on both sides.
Also, if your basic assumption is “Jews had no right to come to Middle East”, everything bad that resulted is 100% Jews’ fault, no matter who kills whom.
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“I think its about number of killed and injured not being approximately the same on both sides. Also, if your basic assumption is “Jews had no right to come to Middle East”, everything bad that resulted is 100% Jews’ fault, no matter who kills whom.”
– Let’s not project on Stringer Bell but if Ukrainian terrorists start blowing up subway stations in Russia, I will have absolutely nothing but condemnation for them. I hope this is understood. I detest the Basque terrorism in Spain, although if anybody’s got a reason to be upset with Spain it’s the Basque people.
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// Do you believe mistakes were not made by both sides? If so, I agree. There are no mistakes, just very calculated policies.
How is it good for Palestinians? Badtux in a recent post predicted ethnic cleansing for them. That’s this frightening (to me) post I asked your opinion about in “Hilarious Links” post.
As the result of intifadas and terrorism, most Israeli Jews agree “there is no partner for peace” and there has been a move to Right: –> continuation of war and settlements, which Right wing supports as “answer to terror.” Where will Palestinian future state be, if all land is settled by Jews? How is it good for them? If Badtux is right, Palestinians’ current strategies are great for Jews, not for Palestinians.
Can you explain how Palestinians win here, long term?
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“How is it good for Palestinians?”
– None of this is good for Palestinians. Nobody cares about the Palestinians, that’s the entire problem. I recently talked to a Palestinian refugee, and nobody who is alive could feel anything but compassion for her and her family. They have survived really bad things. My idea that we should start bringing Palestinians over here is not really mine. I got it from these Palestinians I met. And I think there is a lot to it. “Nobody in the world cares about what happens to us” was what this Palestinian said. And I can’t disagree.
“Badtux in a recent post predicted ethnic cleansing for them.”
– I glanced at the post and it seemed like “ethnic cleansing” for him includes my idea of evacuating Palestinians from the conflict zone.
“Can you explain how Palestinians win here, long term?”
– Of course, they don’t. Hamas does. Everybody who finds a conflict in the region useful does. But regular people are suffering with no hope ahead of them.
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Those two pieces aren’t objective, but I think they’re worth loking at anyway.
1) Just found an opinion piece talking about proportion and because of SB comment decided to put it here. Didn’t know about that “little war” in Europe.
Proportion, we are told. Proportion. So let’s talk about proportion. Forget about Dresden, where the Allies’ bombings left tens of thousands of people dead within three days. About 10,000 dead a day. Let’s take a look at a slightly closer little war.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4545225,00.html
2) Innocent Gazan civilians are responsible for their fate too
Op-ed: Gazans who claim to be victims of their rulers should have rebelled against those building missile bases under their homes. Because they have failed to do so, they will have to pay a price.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4545198,00.html
The Hamas charter is a text expressing a frame of mind and creating a frame of mind which creates actions. If it has no importance, then neither have the “death to the Arabs” chants and the writings of rabbis recommending that many foreskins of Philistines be removed.
Those who play down the importance of the charter also argue that few Palestinians have read it. I suppose that’s true, but how many of us can quote the Israeli Declaration of Independence, have red Leo Pinsker’s “Auto-Emancipation,” have memorized Theodor Herzl’s “Der Judenstaat” and have heard about Ze’ev Jabotinsky’s “Iron Wall”?
The essence of pivotal writings infiltrates the spoken language, the educational systems, the language of the press, politicians’ speeches, religious clerics’ sermons, and sinks into the national consciousness. The Hamas charter is an important component in the consciousness of those who fire missiles at us, even if they haven’t bothered reading a single line of it.
…
Not all Jews support the occupation and settlement policy, and I am one of those who oppose it, but I do know very well that at the end of the day I will pay the price for this policy, and so will my children and grandchildren, and I would never think of claiming that I am not responsible for it.
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I just found this blog today. I am Israeli-American, and I have a few words to add.
Your observations are, for the most part, spot on. The participation of outsiders in this conflict overwhelmingly stems from the desire to vent deep-seated prejudices, especially antisemitism (which a lot of leftists like to pretend either doesn’t exist, especially in their own ranks, or is confined to the far right margins of society).
Lastly, an important correction needs to be made. This conflict isn’t about colonialism or oppression of natives, at least not in the way you were (judging by your comments) led to believe. Taking both the history of the region (and the Jewish and Palestinian peoples) and the most widely accepted criteria for indigenous status into account, it is actually the Jews who are indigenous to Israel/Palestine, not the Palestinians.
A First Nations leader in Idle No More wrote this about the conflict.
[To begin, let us acknowledge that there is no rule that a land can have only one indigenous people; it is not a zero sum game in which one group must be considered indigenous so that therefore another is not. However, there is a very clear guideline to being an indigenous people. It is somewhat complex but can be boiled down to the checklist below, as developed by anthropologist José R. Martínez-Cobo (former special rapporteur of the Sub-commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities for the United Nations).
This list was developed because indigenous rights are beginning to be respected across the planet. This recognition is incredibly important, so we as indigenous people cannot allow non-indigenous people to make false claims, which ultimately would harm our own rights. Israel is the world’s first modern indigenous state: the creation and declaration of the sovereign nation of Israel marks the first time in history that an indigenous people has managed to regain control of its ancestral lands and build a nation state. As such, this is incredibly important for indigenous people both to recognise and to support as a great example for our peoples to emulate.
The actual working definition of “indigenous people,” (not the Wikipedia version, nor Merriam Webster, both more suited to plants and animals) for purposes of this essay is that developed by aforementioned anthropologist José R. Martínez-Cobo. With this as my foundation, I will detail why Jews are indigenous to Israel, and why Palestinians are not.
Martinez-Cobo’s research suggests that indigenous communities, peoples and nations are those which, having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of the societies now prevailing on those territories, or parts of them. They form at present non-dominant sectors of society and are determined to preserve, develop and transmit to future generations their ancestral territories, and their ethnic identity, as the basis of their continued existence as peoples, in accordance with their own cultural patterns, social institutions and legal system.
This historical continuity may consist of the continuation, for an extended period reaching into the present of one or more of the following factors:
* Occupation of ancestral lands, or at least of part of them
* Common ancestry with the original occupants of these lands
* Culture in general, or in specific manifestations (such as religion, living under a tribal system, membership of an indigenous community, dress, means of livelihood, lifestyle, etc.)
* Language (whether used as the only language, as mother-tongue, as the habitual means of communication at home or in the family, or as the main, preferred, habitual, general or normal language)
* Residence in certain parts of the country, or in certain regions of the world
* Religion that places importance on spiritual ties to the ancestral lands
* Blood quantum – that is, the amount of blood you carry of a specific people to identify as that people. The concept was developed by colonialists in order to eventually breed out native peoples.
Let us now look quickly at the Jews. How do they fit this definition?
* Their lands were occupied, first by the Romans, then by the Arabs in the seventh century.
* They share common ancestry with previous occupants as determined by several genetic studies.
* Their culture can be traced directly to the Levant, where it developed into what is now known as “Jewish culture.” While different Jewish communities have slightly different traditions, they all share the same root culture, and it remains unchanged. They have resurrected their traditional language, and while many still speak Yiddish and Ladino, Hebrew has become the primary language again.
* They have spiritual ties to the land, which plays a large role in their traditions as a people.
Despite all the arguments about “European” Jews, they in fact meet all the criteria set forth by Martínez-Cobo. Even though Israel is the first modern indigenous state, it still has lands that are occupied by foreigners in Judea and Samaria. Those are ancestral lands and, many feel that they should be returned to the indigenous peoples for self-determination.
Now, for the flip side.
Palestinians have what are called “ rights of longstanding presence;” and although these are legitimate rights, they do not trump indigenous rights. The very nature of “longstanding presence” means that although they lived somewhere a long time, they do not have the right to occupy indigenous peoples and control them.
The argument that Palestinians are indigenous is incorrect for several reasons.
* Approximately 50% percent of Palestinian Arabs can track their ancestors back farther than their great-grandparents. Many are descended from Arabs brought to the Levant by the British to build infrastructure after World War I.
* The vast majority of Palestinians are Arabic speaking Muslims; the Arabic language is indigenous to the Arabian Peninsula, as is the Muslim religion. The Muslim religion’s holiest places are not in the Levant, but in the city of Mecca, located in the Arabian Peninsula. They have no specifically Palestinian culture that is completely Palestinian dating before the 1960s; in fact, prior to that, the majority identified as “greater Syrians.”
* Some Palestinians share common ancestry with indigenous peoples, but they neither follow indigenous traditions nor do they self-identify as those indigenous peoples. They share neither religion nor language with them. Blood quantum alone is insufficient to transmit indigenous status.
* The Arabs of the Middle East subsumed several indigenous populations, but no group can become indigenous through subsuming indigenous peoples. Rather, they conquered the entire region and spread their own language, customs, and religion. This is historical fact.
Now you might ask, why is this important? It is important to indigenous people because we cannot allow the argument that conquerors can become indigenous. If we, as other indigenous people, allow that argument to be made, then we are delegitimising our own rights.
If conquerors can become indigenous, then the white Europeans who came to my indigenous lands in North America could now claim to be indigenous. The white Europeans who went to Australia and New Zealand could now claim to be indigenous. If we, even once, allow that argument to be made, indigenous rights are suddenly devalued and meaningless. This is somewhat peculiar, as those who are arguing for Palestinian “indigenous rights” are usually those who have little grasp of the history, and no understanding of the truth behind indigenous rights.
If you should encounter the argument that conquerors may themselves become indigenous to a region by virtue of conquering, direct those who assert the argument to this article, and help them understand not only is the argument wrong – it is dangerous to Indigenous people everywhere.]
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“Taking both the history of the region (and the Jewish and Palestinian peoples) and the most widely accepted criteria for indigenous status into account, it is actually the Jews who are indigenous to Israel/Palestine, not the Palestinians.”
– Since you are new to the blog, I have to tell you that we do not discuss “whose land was this first” scenarios. I live in North America, and I can’t rely on a logic according to which we should all go away from the continent because none of us who is not 100% Native American was here first. In today’s world, discussing who is indigenous to where, and whose land belonged to whom initially is a losing proposition.
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Except nobody is suggesting the Palestinians should go away. At least I’m not. Indigenous rights, however, are important and should be respected by all. This does not entail kicking all non-indigenous peoples out. The passage I quoted even stated, explicitly, that Palestinians have rights of longstanding presence, just as you do in North America.
I typed that comment up primarily in response to the comments promoting that “Jews are European colonists” bull. They’re not.
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“I typed that comment up primarily in response to the comments promoting that “Jews are European colonists” bull. ”
– We don’t have such idiots on this blog. I hope.
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25 Israeli soldiers have been killed, 7 of them today. 4 out of today’s 7 were killed by terrorists, emerging from a tunnel, only ~200 meters from kibbutz. Without IDF soldiers there, ~10 terrorists would kill and kidnap entire kibbutz.
16 tunnels were discovered by IDF.
From what I understand, USA’s current attempts at ceasefire help Hamas and are bad for Israel’s interests. That’s opinion of numerous experts on TV.
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In Israeli press I found this about the hospital:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4547577,00.html
International media crews rushed to the scene to report the attack to the world. Hospital director Basman Elashi said he was unfamiliar with the IDF claims a rocket launcher was stashed in the building.
“The army’s leaning on bad information here,” he said. “I’ve never seen any installation of a rocket launcher near the hospital.”
He denied reports Hamas had demanded him not to evacuate the hospital, but other sources said Hamas sent people into the hospital to serve as human shields.
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// There does seem to be a scary similarity between Putin and the Israeli government: they don’t seem to care about the international image.
Don’t know, many Israelis would criticize our government for caring too much about the international image. On news sites one reads in comments “don’t stop right now, and let Hamas attack us with rockets and tunnels again very soon, probably fulfulling its goal of Israeli 9/11. Otherwise, sacrifice of our soldiers has been in vain.”
I, personally, view our PM as a politician, who cares about image (his image in Israel and Israel’s abroad) a great deal. He talked a lot about it in the press conference yesterday. Putin openly says he spits on everybody else, while our PM talks how important international support is.
During that conference yesterday was said that army needs 2-3 additional days to destroy the tunnels. So, we could have ceasefire tomorrow or the day after it.
More information and pictures of terror tunnels:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4546679,00.html
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“Putin openly says he spits on everybody else”
– Not everybody, not at all. Did you see his very recent triumphant tour of Latin America? He wants to be seen as the savior of the world from the evil Americans, and he does have that image in a lot of places around the world.
“So, we could have ceasefire tomorrow or the day after it.”
– Of course, there will be a ceasefire. For a short time. And then it will start all over again. I can only repeat how profoundly sorry I am that this war is going on.
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I just saw a friend who is Palestinian. He is completely shattered, shaking, it’s painful to look at him. Then, by a strange coincidence, I met an Israeli colleague. He says he feels profound shame, and he’s also gone completely black in the face. I felt like crawling in a hole and crying for an hour after meeting them. And I don’t even live in the region or have anybody close to me who does, except reader el.
What a horror.
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// Of course, there will be a ceasefire. For a short time. And then it will start all over again.
That’s why some people are against stopping now, till achieving the goal of destroying Hamas, demilitarization of Gaza and then Gaza’s economic development, providing better lives for its civilians, would be possible.
Netanyahu’s position, as far as I understood from half-sayings at the conference, is that destroying Hamas is a long process, but he believes he is on the right way: today’s Egypt is far less friendly to Hamas than before, people in the world seem to like Hamas less too, etc.
Btw, he has a facebook and tweeted (?) about the hospital:
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http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/why-israel-is-losing-the-american-media-war.html
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu complained to reporters, tersely, that Hamas uses “telegenically dead Palestinians for their cause.”
Clearly has peace as his highest priority. I’m sorry el, your ‘N’ sounds like a psychopath.
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“That’s why some people are against stopping now,”
Echoes of Vietnam. ‘We must destroy this village in order to save it’.
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// an Israeli colleague. He says he feels profound shame
Because of the hospital?
Clarissa, do you think Israel bombed the hospital thinking it had no rocket launches, nothing, 100% to “punish” civilians of Gaza? I find it hard to believe. On Israeli TV in Hebrew our politicians always repeat we don’t target civilians, are sorry for Gazan losses, but can’t let Hamas continue shooting rockets and wait till it succeeds to do a mega-terror attack via tunnels.
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“I find it hard to believe. On Israeli TV in Hebrew our politicians always repeat we don’t target civilians”
I need to ask you again. Exactly how old are you? Do you have any capacity for critical thought? If you’re older than, I dunno, 16, and still blindly believe what your politicians claim on TV, I cringe in embarrassment for you.
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I have no idea why the comment was stuck in moderation. I didn’t censor you, in case you were wondering. Sorry!
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// Echoes of Vietnam.
Americans could leave Vietnam and go to peaceful home.
I wish it was like far away Vietnam, which one can leave and never return.
// Clearly has peace as his highest priority.
He doesn’t believe there can be peace with Hamas in power. Even the uber-Left newspaper writes:
“Hamas, the mouse that roared
Caring nothing for the lives of Palestinian civilians and knowing Israel would go to great lengths to avoid harming civilians, Hamas judged that this moral asymmetry might outweigh its military asymmetry vis-a-vis Israel.
…
Here was their game plan: Embed the rocket launchers and the command and control centers among the civilian population in the Gaza Strip, launch barrages of rockets against Israel’s cities and infiltrate terrorists into Israel through the tunnels and provoke an Israeli response against Hamas targets, a response which is bound to result in civilian casualties. Raise a hue and cry that the IDF is killing civilians in the Gaza Strip and bring on protests against Israel throughout the world and calls for an immediate cease-fire. Once Israel agrees to a cease-fire, on the terms of Hamas, claim a Hamas victory over the IDF.
But there were three things Hamas did not take into consideration: The Iron Dome missile interceptor system, Israel’s determination to defend its civilian population and Egyptian President Abdel-Fattah al-Sissi’s position: cease-fire first, negotiations later.
…
The aims of Hamas are clear. It wants to destroy the State of Israel, and it poses an imminent threat to Israel’s civilian population. Its rule in the Gaza Strip is a tragedy for the Palestinian population there. It is not a partner for negotiations. Israel’s civilian population should not have to live under the threat of rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip. Hamas has to be disarmed.”
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.606205
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Inside Israel:
“Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman urged Israelis to boycott the businesses of Arab citizens who are taking part in a general strike in protest of the Israel Defense Forces operation in the Gaza Strip and the deaths of Palestinian civilians.”
“Speaking during a Knesset press conference, Liberman said that Operation Protective Edge “should end with the IDF controlling all of Gaza.” The foreign minister said that such a move was the only way of properly dealing with Hamas and Islamic Jihad terror.
He said that even had Tuesday’s short-lived ceasefire succeeded in holding, it would only constitute a break until the next round of fighting. Such a break would allow Hamas to create more rockets and develop more tunnels for carrying out terror attacks, Liberman said.”
I think he is already preparing for next elections.
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// I need to ask you again. Exactly how old are you?
Let’s negotiate: if you say your age, I’ll say mine. Honestly.
// still blindly believe what your politicians claim on TV,
I don’t. But I also can’t blindly believe what other side claims. Of course, they will say there were no rockets and/or Hamas operatives in the hospital. For instance, today I saw a video on Israeli TV of Hamas fighters using an ambulance to travel in Gaza.
Here, for instance, use of school to store rockets:
A United Nations agency that last week found rockets in a Gaza school operating under its auspices has handed that weaponry over to Hamas, Israeli officials said Sunday, accusing the organization of actively helping the terrorist organization potentially attack Israeli civilians.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/un-agency-handed-rockets-back-to-hamas-israel-says/
So far, the official verson about the hospital is:
Exclusive: IDF source says investigation into Gaza hospital incident – not an attack
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Damage-to-Gaza-hospital-was-caused-by-attack-on-nearby-rocket-launcher-363629
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// I don’t. But I also can’t blindly believe what other side claims. Of course, they will say there were no rockets and/or Hamas operatives in the hospital.
I wrote it before reading the article I linked to (about IDF investigation).
The question still stands, but in a different way: why should I believe Israel bombed the hospital on purpose rather than by mistake? I understand the former is the narrative in pro-Palestinian community, but what good bombing peaceful hospital could do for Israel? To be ‘N’-cynical for a moment, how giving the world horrible pictures helps Israel? Seems to be the opposite.
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“The question still stands, but in a different way: why should I believe Israel bombed the hospital on purpose rather than by mistake? ”
– Does it really matter? The terrorists in Ukraine shot down a civilian airplane by mistake, but the tragedy is not in any way less horrifying.
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It does matter whether my country has connection to war crimes or not. In every war innocent people are killed and horrifying tragedies happen (as a rule), but there is still special definition of war crimes.
I hope you don’t compare terrorists in Ukraine to Israeli soldiers and prefer not to compare those extremely different situations at all.
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“I hope you don’t compare terrorists in Ukraine to Israeli soldiers and prefer not to compare those extremely different situations at all.”
– See my long and angry comment about this comparison https://clarissasblog.com/2014/07/21/how-russia-sees-the-tragedy-of-flight-mh17/#comment-176969
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“I understand the former is the narrative in pro-Palestinian community, but what good bombing peaceful hospital could do for Israel? ”
To break the will of the palestinian people.
I don’t know, el. Why would they do anything they do if they really cared about their ‘image’. Why would anyone say ‘We’ll put them on a diet’, restricting food supplies into Gaza to the bare minimum. Just enough so they wouldn’t die of hunger.
You’re making a huge assumption here that the Israeli government really cares about its image. Perhaps people like you who claim to be somewhat liberal/educated, who interact with other people online or in real life, maybe you care, but the Israeli government absolutely doesn’t, as long as it knows the US supports its actions.
I would even go as far as saying the more criticism Israel faces, the stronger its resolve becomes because then it is very easy to frame all criticism in the form of ‘They hate us so we have to be stronger for ourselves, they’re anti-semites, etc. etc.). This is no different from the rants of Iraq war supporters in the US. ‘They hate us for our freedom, what do pussy liberals know about war, etc’. Even in pop culture, when people like Jon Stewart and Colbert made fun of these war-mongering idiots, Fox news would label them as effete coastal elites, out of touch with *real* redblooded americans who care about freedom, the american way of life, and apple pie.
For a certain kind of person, criticism works in exactly the opposite direction. It makes them do even worse things. And it makes them stronger.
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I’m sure Clarissa can elaborate but isn’t this exactly how identity is formed in certain countries? Paranoia is a defining characteristic of the state of Israel, so any criticism of their actions actually bolsters their national identity (“See? Didn’t I tell you that Westerners/Europeans/Latin Americans hate you? Will you listen to me now??!!”).
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“I’m sure Clarissa can elaborate but isn’t this exactly how identity is formed in certain countries? Paranoia is a defining characteristic of the state of Israel, so any criticism of their actions actually bolsters their national identity”
– All true. I didn’t want to do my nation-building spiel all over again because I know everybody is tired to death of it, so thank you for doing it for me. 🙂 There is always a feared and hated “external Other.” The weaker national identity is, the greater are the efforts to magnify the power of the external Other. Sometimes the external Other is a single country (for Ukraine it’s Russia, for instance.) But sometimes, the external Other is the entire world.
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“I would even go as far as saying the more criticism Israel faces, the stronger its resolve becomes because then it is very easy to frame all criticism in the form of ‘They hate us so we have to be stronger for ourselves, they’re anti-semites, etc. etc.).”
– Exactly. And I think I know why this is happening. If people in Israel are convinced that there are enemies everywhere, the world behind the borders is teeming with anti-semites, there is danger everywhere outside of Israel, they will not be tempted to leave. It is very easy for Israelis to emigrate, they are wanted everywhere, there are huge immigrant communities supporting them and facilitating emigration. The only way to make people stay put is to terrify them senseless of what might happen to them if they do leave.
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That is very interesting.
I wonder about the psychology of people who leave their cushy lives in the US to become settlers over there. That’s a whole new level of crazy right there.
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“Cushy” is the operative word here. Here is an example. I’m currently going nuts over my new house. I feel like a total movie star living in it, driving my car out of the garage, looking out of the windows. But my enjoyment is so intense because this is the kind of house I had never even seen on the inside before. What I dig is the sense of achievement, knowing where I come from and what it took. This isn’t really about the house at all.
And now let’s imagine that I have children. And they grow up in this house. They work hard, make enormous efforts but all they can hope to achieve is the same kind of house and the same kind of life that they already had to begin with. There is no way they will be as transfixed by the house (and I’m talking symbolically, of course) as I am.
Human beings need a sense of achievement, of something heroic even. Plus there is always a need to define oneself in terms that are the opposite of one’s parents. So if I were to have children, I’d have to expect them to go settling in Israel or something equally obnoxious in my eyes.
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// To break the will of the palestinian people.
I think we (Israel) want to weaken Hamas, and break its will, not of “person on the street”. Besides, attempting to “break the will of the people” by bombing hospitals is both insanely cruel and very stupid, it’s simply counterproductive.
// Perhaps people like you who claim to be somewhat liberal/educated, who interact with other people online or in real life, maybe you care
I don’t care for ‘image’ for the sake of image. I do care about innocent people killed on the Palestinian side and hope my government tries to minimize their number (for its own reasons). There is a huge difference between caring about ‘image’ vs about people there.
However, I also care about long-term solutions and Israeli interests, which include not being shot at and not being killed by terrorists infiltrating the country via tunnels. And, of course, I care about our soldiers (already 28 dead).
I do want a long-term solution, which would include improving the lives of Gazans a great deal, but without endangering my life as the result.
// I would even go as far as saying the more criticism Israel faces, the stronger its resolve becomes
Absolutely true. That’s why using “you are all soulless child killers” is counterproductive. I got the feeling you don’t see even me as a person. And that’s on this blog in a friendly environment, and I am Center politically, with some views as Left. Either I am cold-blooded child murderer or stupid. I am neither.
I understand it’s a personal and painful topic for you, even though you chose not to reveal your personal connection to the conflict when I asked. It’s personal for me too. What are the hopes of solving anything, if even we can’t talk? I hope our relationship improves (not saying I am glad of civilians dying or, may be, am advanced enough to care about ‘image’. I say, to hell with image, lets care about real people from both sides.)
Btw, I’ve been thinking about what’s going on in France. The more French Muslims attempt to have a pogrom there, the more French Jews will immigrate to Israel and (part of them) settle in the settlements. If you asked the attackers whether they want much more Jews in Israel, needing more land, they would say “no”. However, their actions point otherwise. It’s ironic in a sad, mad way.
I do care about it since it pains me to imagine Jew-free Europe, which is the cradle of culture and a place to adore in my eyes. I see it as symbolic in a way that USA isn’t, since USA itself is an offshoot of Europe, even if it likes to pretend o/w for nation-building purposes. Some Israelis say “they are all antisemits, Europe is a Jewish graveyard after Holocaust, all Europian Jews should come to Israel.” May be, also since I was born in Europe (kind of, not “real” Western Europe), I don’t feel any happiness at this prospect. I want Israel to become even better than it’s now, but don’t want all Jews *forced* to come here. If anybody wants, welcome! O/w, it’s sad and supports the view of some historians of Europians and Americans supporting Israel as a kind of ghetto (pre-WW2 meaning) for unwanted Jews.
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“The more French Muslims attempt to have a pogrom there, the more French Jews will immigrate to Israel and (part of them) settle in the settlements. If you asked the attackers whether they want much more Jews in Israel, needing more land, they would say “no”. However, their actions point otherwise.”
– Because, as I said before, nobody gives a damn about Palestinians.
France has degenerated to the point where I don’t think anything will bring it back now. It would be interesting to hear from people who study contemporary French culture why this is happening. I hope that Spain will now try to step into the void left by the former intellectual center of Europe.
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// France has degenerated to the point where I don’t think anything will bring it back now.
It’s not limited to France:
Exclaiming ‘Allahu Akbar,’ crowds in Berlin have reportedly yelled ‘Death to Israel’ and chanted ‘Zionists are fascists, killing children and civilians’ in recent string of pro-Palestinian demonstrations.
…
A Berlin imam has openly called for the annihilation of Zionist Jews, asking Allah to “kill them to the very last one.”
The president of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, Dieter Graumann:
“Jews are once again openly threatened in Germany and sometimes attacked, synagogues are being defaced and declared as targets,” he said.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4548059,00.html
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There is a fringe that consists of freaks and losers everywhere. In France, however, there doesn’t seem anything left but the fringe. Intellectuals, scholars, academics have been leaving France in droves.
Besides, Germany hasn’t been an intellectual leader of the West for over a century. France was, until very recently. Degeneration has been rapid and very sad.
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I liked that opinion piece:
Why Israel should accept Hamas’ terms
Op-ed: In order to win public opinion, Israel must adopt all of Islamic organization’s conditions for ceasefire and add sections benefitting Gaza’s residents – in exchange for Strip’s demilitarization by an international force.
We are witnessing unnecessary and irritating bloodshed. It could have ended long ago. It can be ended, maybe, just maybe, as soon as tomorrow.
The conditions were already written almost a decade ago – the Quartet conditions. No to violence, yes to recognizing Israel and past agreements. These conditions would have obligated Hamas to work solely on the political track, and would have obligated Israel to lift the siege.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4548219,00.html
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Via Technology as Nature blog I found this post:
http://www.ginandtacos.com/2014/07/20/own-it/
I link it since one of responders – LK – is an Israeli too and left several comments, presenting her take on the situation.
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Today’s news (translated from Hebrew)
Hamas’s war room: IDF attacked Wafa hospital for the first time.
The massive bombing in Gaza: for the first time since the beginning of the operation, IDF attacked terror targets in the hospital grounds. IDF Spokesperson said that the fire from the place continued for days, including anti-tank fire, “it was used to run a war room and command of Hamas and Islamic Jihad ”
Link in Hebrew:
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4548741,00.html
I watched Israeli TV and heard the same. About rockets stored there and fire on our soldiers from the roof. After evacuating patients, the building will be probably bombed from air. Isn’t it Hamas’s responsibility too?
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Another article on Wafa with later news says people were warned and all patients left the hospital building several days ago, turning it into war center alone. Today several “terror centers” in the building were attacked.
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Today I heard about a group of IDF pilots complaining on Israeli channel (?) that numerous prohibitions of air strikes on Palestinian terrorists because of humanitarian reasons (closeness to civilian population) endanger our soldiers on the ground in Gaza. Most Israelis feel we should care more about safety of our soldiers and less about ‘image.’
Another interesting thing from TV: Hamas member (forgot who, but somebody important) talked about plans to gain control in PA, instead of Abu Mazen, and shoot Israeli civilian planes with “rogatka.” If Hamas gained control in PA, a simple RPG missile would be enough to take a plane down because of closeness to airport. Another reason Israel worries about negotiations: if Palestinians get a country and Hamas decides to shoot planes and use chemical weapons, what then?
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“Rockets hit south – 1 wounded
After night of relative calm, rockets continued to fall on southern Israel throughout day.”
Austria: Turkish nationals behind attack on Maccabi Haifa players
After pro-Palestinian activists stormed pitch and attacked Maccabi Haifa players in a freindly match in Austria, local authorities vow to investigate.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4549557,00.html
Israelis may not be ready for a cease-fire in Gaza
Jerusalem afraid of public scorn should it accept a truce with Hamas before achieving enough in Gaza fighting to justify IDF losses, continuous rocket fire.
…
Israel also can’t rule out the possibility that Hezbollah will try to build similar attack tunnels under the Lebanese border, although the ground there is harder to tunnel through.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.606711
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Btw, Haaretz now has “Ukraine” tag:
http://www.haaretz.com/misc/tags/Ukraine-1.575856
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1/ Is it really “Israel” vs. Hamas? What about the rest of Israel-Palestine?
2/ Part of reason for US interest is the close alliance with Israel / the amount of funding / etc.
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// 1/ Is it really “Israel” vs. Hamas? What about the rest of Israel-Palestine?
I don’t understand what you mean by “the rest”. Except other Muslim countries, some of which are eager to get involved for their own purposes. Probably that’s why “we need Israel / Palestine” as a multi-player game, not of two players. On Israeli TV I heard that now Israel gets support of (even if not outwardly) and is in league with moderate Islamic countries vs/against radical Islamic camp (Iran, Hizballah, Hamas, etc).
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There are other people besides Hamas and the Netanyahu types.
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They are standing by, wringing their hands. Until they manage to prevent the extremists on both sides from waging war, it is as if they didn’t exist.
The overwhelming majority of people in Donetsk also don’t want the war. But until they do something about it, the war will continue.
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A wonderful article explaining what is going on in the Middle East now:
When Strategies Collide
Many wars are fought over accidents and misunderstandings. This is not one of those times. With key interests at stake, the conflict in Gaza is likely to continue.
http://www.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2014/07/25/the-gaza-war-when-strategies-collide/
Somebody offers a plan for solving the Israeli / Palestinian conflict, with some information about the history of Gaza:
http://www.the-american-interest.com/garfinkle/2012/11/20/shock-the-casbah/
From his another article, the summary of his plan:
“You can go back and read the whole argument if you like, but in a nutshell: Israel and the Palestinian Authority negotiate a secret peace deal, complete with security arrangements, borders, quit-claim clauses, and the whole business—and yes, if the incentives are attractive enough compared to the plummeting trajectory of the status quo, they can do this; Israel invades and occupies Gaza, extirpating Hamas; Israel and the PA simultaneously reveal their deal, to be unfurled in phases over five years, to the world; the PA is given control of Gaza, with the assistance of Arab League-endorsed Egyptian and Jordanian armed forces, as the IDF withdraws. Additionally, the United States and the European Union endorse and support the deal, and bring Israel into the Western alliance system as an associate member, even as Palestine is brought within the cocoon of an empowered (via Egyptian and Jordanian on-site power) Arab League led by Saudi Arabia. The sovereignty of both sides of a two-state solution needs to be enmeshed at least temporarily in larger associations as both endorsement and protection of the new order from those on both sides who will reject and try to overturn it.
The purpose of the “shock the casbah” idea is to get at the core problem, which is that the Palestinians have never had their Altalena moment. They lack one gun and one voice, and until they have both no peace process can get far enough to matter. (The objection that the Palestinians are all rejectionists who don’t want a just peace is, in its typical categorical form, unfalsifiable so long as there is not peace, which renders the attitude self-paralyzing and self-defeating. The same objection, let’s remember, used to be pinned on Egyptians and Jordanians.) The Palestinians can’t seem to pull off this reckoning by themselves, so the Israelis need to help them; they are the only ones who can, and it is in Israel’s long-term interest to do so. The world will be too shocked by the peace deal to complain about the next, hopefully last big Israeli incursion into Gaza.”
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Abu Mazen’s son attacks IDF: “IDF is a Nazi military that commits crimes”
Abbas also addressed the Israeli prime minister and said: “I turn to Netanyahu that wants to solve the Palestinian issue, only after the first generation of refugees dies out – so we will forget the refugee problem. It does not matter to when he postponed this problem, our demands will remain the same. The first generation of the Nakba will die, but the Palestinian people will never forget its identity”.
According to Abbas the boy, the Palestinians aspire to create only one Palestinian state. Unlike his father that strives for a two state solution and dividing Jerusalem: “We will save all of Palestine. In the future Jerusalem will remain united under Palestinian control”, he declared.
http://www.jerusalemonline.com/news/middle-east/israeli-palestinian-relations/abu-mazen-son-says-idf-are-nazis-6707
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http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html
“When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. “Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay,” he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region.
But now, officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas’s handiwork after all. ”
Oops! Killing a thousand civilians in fake-revenge was fun, though, amirite?
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From SB’s article:
“Israeli police MickeyRosenfeld tells me men who killed 3 Israeli teens def lone cell, hamas affiliated but not operating under leadership”
Rami Igra, former head of Mossad MIA unit, questions PM’s Hamas abduction claim
…
“Most abductions are not made by big [Palestinian terrorist] organizations, but by small, extreme Islamic fragment groups who attempt to sell or move captives to a larger Palestinian entity.”
Igra contended that the Israeli government has maintained a dangerous and unsustainable precedent by agreeing to mass Palestinian prisoner releases for individual Israelis.
http://www.jpost.com/Pillar-of-Defense/Rami-Igra-former-head-of-Mossad-MIA-unit-questions-PMs-Hamas-abduction-claim-359565
Btw, Gilead Shalit was kidnapped via one of Hamas’s attack tunnels.
On another article, I read an interesting comment regarding Rami Igra:
“I wholly concur. Times of Israel reported a security official saying kidnapping such as these tend to be done by splinter or small autonomous groups who later sell their victims to larger organizations like Hamas. In the present case, I believe the motivation is mostly refusal of the unity deal. Abbas is seen as a collaborator, so Hamas’ unity rapprochement becomes collaboration as well. The kidnappings were an attempt to induce exactly the response Israel now employs, bringing Hamas back into the refusal fold. The power thereby given to small groups of such ideology is enormous. I have found, repeatedly, that Israel in its reactions is quite often the best ally these groups may have. I recall an old South American Marxist guerrilla manual which advised to retreat into a densely populated poor area after an action, luring the police/soldiers therein to handle the populace roughly, thereby showing this populace what the government is really like, creating, at least, fellow travelers for the movement.
At bare minimum–and I do mean bare–the Hamas hierarchy should have refused this kidnapping as either violation of their authority or incompatible with their present unity stance. That this has not happened suggest to me that internal opposition to unity is significant; that, and such refusal would be a shift in militant ideology towards a political party stance (compare Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland) many are unwilling to make. The IDF bombing in Gaza, with civilian casualties, make such a shift even more difficult.
The State broadening of the kidnapping search into a greater assault on WB Hamas is quite consistent with Bibi’s earlier refusal to deal with a unity government, Bibi going so far as to say that Hamas candidates would not be allowed to participate in any future WB elections. Bibi and these kidnappers are both well understand the power of active refusal. Nuance is in neither’s vocabulary–only coarse grain labeling lives therein. Short term, a most effective way of changing things. Long term–well, others will pay the price, not the speaker of labels.”
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New column of Uri:
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1406281947
Israel extended Gaza truce until Sunday (toll midnight) despite Hamas rocket fire. Previously,
“Security Cabinet convenes at discuss additional ceasefire, Hamas rejects extended four-hour humanitarian lull until midnight [me: of today, which ended an hour ago]; source claims Israel likely to extend ceasefire by additional day.”
Some people react “have our soldiers died in vain”, “Bibi = coward”. I am almost sure (based on his interviews) he knows what game he is playing. During ceasefires, destruction of tunnels continues and IDF stays put where it was before. Probably, there is no need for our soldiers to go deeper into Gaza, so
1) Israel gets additional international credit for ceasefires
2) while doing all that’s needed, with our soldiers being relatively safe
3) if Hamas shoots, it is “the bad side”
4) IDF doesn’t continue moving, while not looking weak
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Israel offered medical aid to Gazans, but the PA refused to accept it
Health Ministry prepared millions of shekels worth of medicine, chemotherapy and medical equipment for Gaza; MDA offered blood donations.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4550862,00.html
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Last year, a BBC World Service global survey found that Israel was the fourth most ‘negatively viewed’ nation in the world, after Iran, Pakistan and North Korea. In only one western country — America — did a majority express favourable views of Israel, and even there it was only 51 per cent; so much for the US being in the back pocket of some creepy Israel lobby.
…
‘The lesson many in the West took from the Holocaust is that nationalism is bad; the message Jews took from it is that nationalism is necessary.’
This cuts to the heart of today’s fashionable disdain for little Israel. What many Westerners seem to find most nauseating is that Israel is cocky, confident and committed to preserving its national sovereign rights against all-comers. In short, it’s a lot like we used to be before relativism and anti-modernism. I think that Israel reminds us of our older selves, our pre-EU, pre-green days, when we, too, believed in borders, sovereignty, progress, growth.
Now that it’s de rigueur in the right-thinking sections of western society to be post–nationalist and multicultural, to be fashionably uncertain about one’s national identity, the sight of a border-fortifying state offends and outrages us. In the words of George Gilder, author of The Israel Test, Israel is now hated more for its virtues than for its political or militaristic vices. It’s hated for remaining devoted to ‘freedom and capitalism’ when we’re all supposed to be snooty about such things.
If Israel is unofficially being made into a pariah state, it isn’t because of its foreignness, or even necessarily its Jewishness, but rather because it is too western for our liking. We loathe it because we loathe ourselves.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9157741/israelis-dont-care-that-we-hate-them-but-theyd-like-to-know-why/
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Could have been written in Russia if you substitute “Israel” for “Russia.” 🙂
One can cling to outdated systems but it’s a road to nowhere. Time cannot be stopped, the past cannot be recovered. And ultimately, that’s not a bad thing at al.
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\\ One can cling to outdated systems but it’s a road to nowhere.
How is it connected to Israel? Should we invite numerous non-Jewish immigrants or what? I don’t understand.
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I don’t think the piece has to do with Israel at all. The author is upset that the nation-state is dying away. We can sit here feeling upset but that won’t change anything.
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\\ I don’t think the piece has to do with Israel at all. The author is upset that the nation-state is dying away.
Where is it dying away? I guess, the talk is about Europe only.
Countries around us never reached the state (as in ‘level’) of a true, strong nation state, and we see attempts of Kurds f.e. to achieve that. Meanwhile, w/o nation states, different tribes are slaughtering each other horribly.
Naturally, I am interested whether you see “nation-state dying away” as having any connection to Israel. I don’t see Israel as welcoming f.e. open borders and Jew/non Jew marriage in this century. There is much talk of demographics, whether Israel will remain with Jewish majority in various scenarios, etc.
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It’s a globalized world. Americans can send drones anywhere the want and move their corporations anywhere they want, so what anybody has or hasn’t achieved and does or doesn’t want in terms of preserving the nation-state is irrelevant.
This happened with all models: feudal, early capitalist, early modern, etc. their time ran out, people resisted, went to wars over it, etc but it was all in vain. The agony of these outdated forms of society was prolonged for 2 seconds at the enormous human cost. What a bloody waste, pun intended.
In terms of Israel, the only thing that can prolong the outdated dream of a mono-ethnic state is serious bloodshed and a severe rollback of all individual and democratic freedoms. The result will be, as I said, putting off the inevitable for 2 seconds. Is it worth it? To me personally, obviously not. I understand and am deeply sympathetic to the Jewish dream of a monoethnic state. If anybody is entitled to this dream, it’s the Jews. But I also believe that the dream is unsustainable and the sooner it is abandoned, the better. The future belongs to individual rights tramping collective concerns majorly in every single way.
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\\ In terms of Israel, the only thing that can prolong the outdated dream of a mono-ethnic state is serious bloodshed and a severe rollback of all individual and democratic freedoms. The result will be, as I said, putting off the inevitable for 2 seconds.
My question is: what is this “inevitable”? Using your words, suppose this dream ends in Israel (without or after bloodshed), what will change then in my country? Will it mean accepting all Palestinians somehow or what?
I understand that in Europe new age means EU, open borders, etc.
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The best way to adapt to the new reality is to let go of attachments to “countries”, treat the passports, residencies and citizenships as minor bureaucratic inconveniences, go wherever one feels more comfortable or wherever best suits one’s purposes, abandon geographical attachments, learn to adapt in new environments, dump any collective identifications and, of course, make money to make all the above-mentioned possible. 🙂
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// dump any collective identifications
Any, like being Jewish?
// go wherever one feels more comfortable or wherever best suits one’s purposes
As a professor, you can do that. What about school teachers, secretaries, etc.? Immigration to a country, whose language one doesn’t know, is extremely hard and costy. Switching countries at whim is beyond most people’s reach.
Besides, for Jews there is also a problem of antisemitism. Or will it resolve itself somehow?
// of course, make money to make all the above-mentioned possible
I remember you talked about a growing class of permanently unemployed. This new world seems to be of moving elites vs. 90+ % being unable to move to a near town.
// let go of attachments to “countries”, treat the passports, residencies and citizenships as minor bureaucratic inconveniences
Will Israel still exist as a Jewish country in it?
Would *love* to hear your view of Israel 100-200 years in the future, after all those changes. That’s my main question.
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