King says on a date — unless a woman says otherwise — the gentleman opens the door, offers to pay, suggests good options on the dinner menu, asks his date what she’d like and places her order. She’s been getting more requests from young people eager to bring back that kind of old-fashioned civility. “I am so excited; I don’t think there’s a better time in history to model being a lady and a gentleman,” she says.
Suggests good options and places her order? Because there are so many illiterate women running around, or what?
Freaks.
Clarissa's Blog 
I’d only suggest good options if I’d been there before and if my date asked. I think the old version of this involved the man deciding what the woman would eat. Unless I’m unable to speak, I don’t much see the point in the man ordering for everyone at the table. It only makes the server happy because it makes taking the order go more quickly.
Chivalry is all about showy gestures to the right kind of women you want to court or impress. This is why I get men holding the door for me when I’m completely unencumbered but completely ignored when I’m hauling 50 lb of anything. :p
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Chivalry (the part about relationships between men and women, especially those not in an intimate relationship) is an exchange. The man offers protection (walking closer to traffic, being beneath the woman on stairs) and consideration (opening doors, standing until she is seated, paying her way) and in return the woman is supposed to offer deference (letting him deal with decisions and service personnel) and admiration (listening to him as if whatever he’s saying is just the most fascinating thing ever).
If adults who understand that system want to behave that way then who am I to stop them? It’s not how I want to live, but I have no real desire to micro-manage other people’s relationships. But both sides need to be aware of the exchange. It’s very unbecoming for either men or women to want the nicer parts for themselves without keeping up their end of the social bargain.
Within an established relationship, the more both partners enjoying being nice to and doing nice things for the other generally the better.
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Also it occurs to me that maybe this is a result of smothering parenting styles. Millenials seem to often have problems dealing with people who aren’t their parents and traditional etiquette might offer models that can reduced their anxiety about having to deal with unfamiliar people.
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That’s a very good insight. Interesting.
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Wha-a-a-at??? I was recently describing that “man orders for his date” custom tomy daughters, and they were aghast. I was only ever in that situation once, when an old friend took me out for dinner at an old-school Italian place where he was a regular. The waiter clearly expected him to do all the ordering, and I didn’t mind playing along–it seemed of a piece with the checked tablecloth and accordion music. My friend was really embarrassed though, and apologized while we waited for our food.
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If someone did that to me automatically, I would be out the door before they ordered their own food. As soon as they offered unsolicited suggestions, even. Chances are, they’re not going to know me well enough to offer good choices on their own.
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I saw this on TV once but never in real life. Waiters bring menus for everybody at the table. Does the man in this model wrestle the menu out of the woman’s hands? The mechanics of the whole thing is not clear.
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“Does the man in this model wrestle the menu out of the woman’s hands?”
Time to show my tremendous age again… You young people have no idea what it was like in the olden days, no idea!
Of course the woman has her own menu, the man mentions various items on the menu to give her an idea of the price range he’s comfortable paying for (since it’s been established that he’s paying and before credit cards he had to have the cash on hand). She uses that as a basis to choose what to order, conveys that to him and then he tells the waiter what she wants.
Alternately the woman may mention several items (of different prices) and then indicate her trust in his judgement by saying “I’ll let you decide”. She uses his selection to judge his interest in and/or intentions toward her.
It’s a comprehensive system and looking at parts in isolation doesn’t really work.
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Ah! Now I get it! It’s a Marxist thing. Thank you for sharing your old-folks wisdom, Cliff. 🙂 This is exactly how I feel when I share with students the stories of life without cell phones.
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I believe the woman was given a menu without prices. And the man had a menu with prices. Or at least, this still happens at some fancier places.
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I’ve only been to the fancy places where nothing like this took place. Which is a good thing for everybody involved.
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“I believe the woman was given a menu without prices”
All the more reason for the man to … prompt about what he was able to pay for. Although if the restaurant was fancy enough (and the man’s status high enough) he didn’t have to pay for it that night.
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My sister is in an organization for Canada’s most successful entrepreneurs. They go on trips to different countries together and are encouraged to bring their spouses. My sister asked if there were activities scheduled for spouses and was informed that there was always a really great activity with a manicurist and another one with a cooking class.
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@Cliff
That’s pretty interesting since I remember people having easy access to credit cards my entire life. I hear of men signalling their intentions by the restaurant which they choose (pizza joint v mid price v five star Michelin restaurant), but this kind of entree signalling breaks down because I’m vegetarian and I don’t really drink much. Therefore as a rule, my entrees tend to be cheaper and I would not be comfortable with somebody randomly picking something for me as there’s usually about two things on the menu. I wonder if I’m signalling negative things because of this. I suspect Millennials and Xers who don’t have dietary quirks would object because they’ve grown up around so many people on different types of diets and this kind of control by one person (ordering for everyone) would create more faux pas than it avoids. The other kinds of restaurant signalling like how my date behaves with the service staff and tipping make sense to me.
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I have heard that there are restaurants where the women’s menus do not have prices printed, whereas the men’s menus do.
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Ew.
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Funny you should mention this! I went on a date with a guy who did this just a few days ago, including steering me towards what to order. He also, throughout dinner, showcased that he was a Holocaust denier, told me that he considered oral sex on men to be a mandatory part of sex but oral sex on women to be “a waste of time”, and asked me what my ethnicity was because “Most of you looks white, but then you have ch*nky eyes”.
He was very clearly a fan of old-fashioned thinking, in all areas of life. 🙂
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Will there be a second date?
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Nope. I managed to get my revenge on him at the end of the date, then walked out the door while saying “By the way, I’m Jewish”. I’m satisfied with how it went.
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“Funny you should mention this! I went on a date with a guy who did this just a few days ago, including steering me towards what to order. He also, throughout dinner, showcased that he was a Holocaust denier, told me that he considered oral sex on men to be a mandatory part of sex but oral sex on women to be “a waste of time”, and asked me what my ethnicity was because “Most of you looks white, but then you have ch*nky eyes”.
He was very clearly a fan of old-fashioned thinking, in all areas of life. ”
– Creepy because I think I had a date with this same guy, too, about 10 years ago. No wonder he is still so lonely. 🙂
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The one thing I can say in his favour then is that he tends to ask out excellent women. 🙂 Too bad he has no idea how to actually make them stay in his company for more than an hour without wanting to dump their wine glass on his head.
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I’m in favor of good manners. I like the ladies and gentlemen concept. In social dance classes, instructors usually refer to the students as “ladies” and “gents.” Or sometimes as “leads” and “follows.”
I’m definitely of the old school as far as opening the door. And whenever you’re dining with another person, of either gender, it’s always a nice gesture to reach for the check, unless they do it first. If they wish to pay the check or split it, the subject can be discussed, but not debated. Accommodation should be made graciously by all.
I would never presume to order for another person. And I make a menu suggestion only if I’ve been at the restaurant before and they ask me. Life need not be complicated.
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I’m in favour of good manners, but if “good manners” is predicated on me happily accepting being treated like a toddler trapped in an adult body, I’ll just have to say “No, thank you”.
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” Or sometimes as “leads” and “follows.””
– I hope that “leads” and “follows” are not defined by gender.
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You lead while dancing? LOL, that must be a total shambles ;-D
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Latin American dancing that I enjoy doesn’t have any leading or following. It is based on collaboration between two people who are trying to create something beautiful instead of enacting medieval stereotypes.
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“I hope that “leads” and “follows” are not defined by gender.”
Since John Hayden was discussing this in terms of a dance class, I assume that to some extent these roles/titles ARE defined by gender. In most (Western) traditional couple dances, the man leads (waltz, tango, foxtrot.) I think these dances are all quite beautiful and so I can personally live with the inevitable chauvinism of it. But it is there.
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A woman with half a brain and even the teensiest bit of personality needs to break herself in half and stomp out any identity out of herself to learn to dance tango. I know that for a fact because I tried. Since that experience, I feel nothing but nausea when I see it on TV or wherever.
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What about same sex tangos? There are several on youtube with two men or two women. I tend to think they look better than the traditional m-f tango (which I’ve always just looked kind of ridiculously melodramatic).
Another interesting dance form is the Carolina shag which reverses the sexes of some traditional dance forms – the woman is there to show off the man as he performs tricks (lots of intricate and odd foot movements – it looks weird but makes sense when you know the origins).
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Yes, leading and following are basic to couples dancing. Dance instructors routinely joke about it. For example, a female dance instructor might say: “My husband is a good leader. If fact, he became so good at leading in the foxtrot, he asked if he could take the lead in balancing our checkbook as well. I told him No.” The joke can be told in infinite variations by a teacher or dancer of either gender.
Counterintuitively, the concept of “leads” and “follows” can actually be freeing. On many occasions, obviously, the number of men and women in a room is not equal. So it’s routine for two women to dance together in any social or folk dance situation, from the waltz to contra or square dancing. Usually the dance involves leading and following, so one party takes the lead role, and the other the follow.
Men tend to be a little standoffish about dancing with other men. However, where REAL, SERIOUS dancers gather, men often dance unselfconsciously together, for the joy of the dance. People who have been dancing for years, men and women, often lose all self-consciousness about dancing with a partner of the same gender. Nearly all accomplished dance instructors are adept at teaching and demonstrating both the male and female — lead and follow — parts of the dance.
The close cooperation of two people in graceful movement to music is part of the thrill of dancing. Leading and following each require a degree of skill and attention. It’s more fascinating than most forms of cooperation because it’s usually completely nonverbal.
Clarissa, I agree the tango is a demanding, athletic dance. I’ve always been intimidated by it. The extreme, performance of style of tango requires great muscle control and agility for all involved.
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Clarissa needs to enjoy The Masochism Tango:
Tom Lehrer — “The Masochism Tango”:
“You can raise welts, like nobody else, as we dance to The Masochism Tango …”
🙂 🙂
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