A scary doubt just assaulted me. If people find it so hard to get it through their thick skulls that there are no innate differences (other than in the way their reproductive systems work) between men and women, do these same sorry excuses for human beings fail to realize that there are no differences but the very insignificant physiological ones between people if different races? Or has civilization conquered at least this bastion of barbarity?
By the way, I just read Ta-Nehisi Coates’s “The Case for Reparations” in The Atlantic and I highly recommend. Very well-written, very insightful. I’m an immigrant, so maybe everybody who’s from around here already knows all this stuff but for me it was a revelation. I now want to find out more.
Clarissa's Blog 
Stuart Hall had some great things to say about the formation of race and the way that it became (inaccurately) associated with one’s DNA and biology. I think you’d like his video lecture, Race: The Power of an Illusion.
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Woops, sorry, got the name wrong, it’s “Race: The Floating Signifier”. That other one is also a decent lecture on race and racism, but it’s not Stuart Hall’s. I need my coffee.
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I love Stuart Hall!
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I think conservatives generally adopt the posture that society allows them to get away with. They tend to be very, very sensitive to societal approval or disapproval. So they avoid making openly racist slurs, but they notice that they are permitted to condescend to women and treat them rather negatively.
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On the Reparations:
My ancestors fought for the North, the South (no he did not own slaves), and raided white people in Kansas (short story: they rode with Frank and Jesse James, the Cole brothers, and WIlliam Quantrill). Who do I reparate, or does this cancel out?
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I’m an immigrant, so this is obviously not my issue. Moreover, my ancestors were slaves back in Ukraine until 1861. But I’d gladly participate in paying reparations to the black people and the indigenous people of America because, in the end, this would benefit all of us.
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I’ll agree, if a credit is given for the fact a lot of these minorities are on the public dole (paid for by tax dollars from the producers).
I don’t mean to be glib, I just think at some point people need to take responsibility for their own life (and I say this as someone born with physical and mental dyslexia, and a mild form of Asperger’s) and cut out the victim mentality. Otherwise I’d be paying reparations to most of Europe (my ancestors were Goths, Vandals, and Vikings).
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I like you, you are funny. The bit about the Goths is brilliant.
I’m also a great believer in individual responsibility. Still, I’ve been to East St Louis and I’m thinking that whatever needs to be done to change it just needs to be done.
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Race can of course be constructed as being signified by a number of traits marking groups of common ancestry, immutable characteristics, and differentiated rights. Skin color is only one such trait.
http://jpohl.blogspot.com/2012/01/racial-discrimination-has-nothing-to-do.html
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Racism is alive and well in many areas of the world. Racism may be based on skin color, but on other dimensions as well. The historical conflict of Arabs and Jews dates from a conflict between different semitic tribes, does it not? Isn’t that a form of racism?
However, that raises the question of definition. What in fact is a race? Is pigmentation either adequate or of sufficient import to classify groups of humans? We certainly don’t put squirrels into different species based on color.
Certainly, there has been hatried — even wars — based on tribal membership, clan membership, and of course religion. Racism doesn’t seem apt for these kinds of conflicts, but we don’t have another word in English, and the underlying mechanics are really the same, aren’t they?
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10684179/Men-and-women-do-not-have-different-brains-claims-neuroscientist.html
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\\ do these same sorry excuses for human beings fail to realize that there are no differences but the very insignificant physiological ones between people if different races?
I would bet on “yes,” even if many are smart enough not to say so in public.
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Yes, my students at Cornell were shocked when I said all this in class. They looked like people who were experiencing an extreme degree of relief.
“No differences?” they kept asking. “Are you absolutely sure?”
I looked in their hope-filled eyes and said, “I’m absolutely sure.”
They were so happy. It was like they’d been waiting and hoping for this for years.
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They were so happy. It was like they’d been waiting and hoping for this for years.(Clarissa)
Its amazing the relief people feel when they dont have to think for themselves and they can just believe the “professional”. 😉
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Please try to control yourself, OK? I am a professional in the area of identity formation. When you get as many degrees and have as many publications as I do in the field, maybe I will consider you an interesting discussion partner on this subject. Until then, I recommend you chew more and speal less.
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I am a professional in the area of identity formation(Clarissa)
I thought you were a Spanish professor?
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I specialize in the mechanisms of identity formation and have published extensively on the subject.
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Is that a culturally based mechanism or just from the western perspective?
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@JT
Why is it so scary to believe that men and women are not ‘hard-wired’ differently? And where is your evidence for the ‘hard-wired’ bs? Castrated dogs don’t count!!!
Clarissa, I like your advice of travelling more for people who really cling to the ‘hard-wired’ line of thought. If you go to other countries you can see how profoundly culture influences belief and behavior.
For example, Americans tend to believe not enjoying sex much is a just a biological part of being female women, but there are many other cultures around the world where women are more sexual and sexually aggressive than men.
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I’ve paid a lot of reparations over the years. Eventually one gets cynical. Even I, with my capacity to generate new emotional resources, am not a bottomless pit — and honestly I am worse of than many whom I am supposed to have oppressed, who can at least rely on the charity of their extended families in their old age, whereas I cannot.
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Of course, this doesn’t work on the level of individuals, only on the level of societies. If even I, as an immigrant, am willing to say, “We all live here, we all are interested in making this society work, and if I need to take responsibility for the white slaveholders, then that’s what I will do so that the society begins to cure this wound”, I don’t see why everybody else can’t.
I’m sick and tired of nobody even being able to say the word “black”. I’m tired of my academic friends saying “the khm khm you know those people.” Fuck this shit, people. Enough already. I don’t know any “khm khm those people”. For shame!
Obviously, the rant is not aimed at musteryou who is in no way part of this problem.
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You can’t say “black” in the US anymore? That is strange because in Africa the term is used all the time. The most academic term for Black people in the US here is not African-American. Instead they are thought of as part of the Black Diaspora. But, I was told you can’t use the term mulatto in the US either unlike in Africa.
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My students keep referring to literary characters of medieval literature as African American because the word ‘black’ scares them so much.
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I would not be against people treating others as human beings at all, or against promoting a certain knowledge that one ought to assist those whom history has kicked in the teeth.
I have done that, done my role, as much as possible, and my thesis itself was a contribution to that sort of project.
But now people need to realize that history has also kicked me in the teeth. I can’t improve my social position and I have no prospect for financial improvement. This is in large part because people have given me very short thrift for being a white peson from Africa, which has during great lengths of time put an enormous strain on my mind and on my body.
Extortionists, whether of the left or right, do not stop, though, just because they have already achieved a great deal.
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It would be a great thing, I believe, if Australia started to discuss its bizarre attitudes to recent immigrants.
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I think there is little to discuss. Australia is a colonial country and therefore many people feel that they’ve been caught out on the wrong side of the politically correct fence. To deflect attention away from themselves whilst making themselves seem morally judicious, they attack white immigrants from Africa. It is nothing more or less complex than this.
I have a Facebook friend, who was always extremely liberal in his views. His father was condemned in South Africa for allowing his black workers to use mechanical tools, since that was considered to raise their status too much. His father had to escape political persecution by going back to Germany. Later Cedric (his son) migrated to Australia.
He said, “They thought I was a fascist because my hair had been cut very short when I was inducted into the South African mlitary.” He said it came really close to an all out brawl.
But never mind about the actual person, or their actual political views, some people see thing entirely in terms of national blocs and their interests. And they never stop seeing things in that way. There is an awesome level of superficiality.
So if you happen to have a very liberal personality, you do get attacked from all sides, by those who are “welcoming” you to your new abode and by those who hate you for betraying their original right-wing cause.
My siblings have all fared far better than I have, financially, because they have cooperated with the conservative agenda. Me, not so much.
But what is amazing is that the left itself has no qualms about making you continue to pay and pay.
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@ J. Otto and Clarissa
You can say black!
I say the words ‘black’ and ‘white’ comfortably and most people who have spent any time around people of races besides their own usually do. I learned that ‘black’ was OK from a Caribbean friend who obviously didn’t like being called ‘African American’ all the tine. People who are very insulated get more confused about these things though. For example, some people I work with use ‘Indian’ as a racial term for people who are ‘brown’ but from countries other than India.
There was a movement in the US in the 90s to say ‘African american’ instead of black – I don’t know why. Some people I work with are so stupid they refer to a Nigerian immigrant as ‘African American’. Although he’s been in the US for a few years so maybe he actually fits the term exactly 🙂 !
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I think reparation is very hard to repay, if not impossible. So many people feel they deserve it. Even certain religions who are oppressed based on their belief and not their race. In the end we all need to remember that we are not different. Reparation can be paid forward in that. Although, there is probably another word for that and I count on you to tell me what that is.
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Reparations involve several issues: (1) Who’s responsible for payment? (2) Who’s entitled to receipt? (3) What about logical consistency? (4) What is the impact of reparations?
(1) A German today can justly say. “I had nothing to do with that. I was not born then. What was done is offensive to me. Why should I have to pay for that?”
(2) Who could receive payment isn’t obvious. Is it just direct descendents of people who were interned in the camps? All Jews? Due to intermarriage, you could have someone who is descended from an SS officer and a Jew getting money?
In the US, there has been discussion of reparations for Native Americans. However, in Oregon, there is a group claiming descent from a culture that preceeded the “Native Americans” and who say the Native Americans owe reparations to them.
(3) In trying to settle the Israeli-Palistinian mess, it seems to me that the argument is that we have to find a workable solution based on current realities, not history. The concept of reparations seems to say that history is what matters, not the current situation.
(4) Germany reparations after World War One are cited as abetting the financial turmoil that enabled Hitler to take power. With any public policy decision, we need to understand unintended effects/collateral damange. Has anyone considered this? I have seen nothing on this.
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// In trying to settle the Israeli-Palistinian mess, it seems to me that the argument is that we have to find a workable solution based on current realities, not history.
Yes and no. The current situation often includes festering wounds, which can be cleansed only by facing the past’s ugly sides. As an Israeli Jew, I can’t be for destruction of my own Jewish and democratic state by inviting all Palestinian refugees back. However, I do think it would’ve been fair, if Israel was asked to help the future Palestinian state to develop and not become another 3rd world country.
Unfortunately, I don’t think I will live to see this day. Instead, Palestinians (without a state or even with) will continue to shoot at us, we’ll shoot at them and invest all money in the army, instead of in the new and peaceful state of Palestine. Don’t know what can be done.
// Germany reparations after World War One are cited as abetting the financial turmoil that enabled Hitler to take power.
I read that hungry Germans saw all their produce going to the French. Nobody talks about “gutting” the society, which would do reparations.
// Who could receive payment isn’t obvious
Like in Germany-Jews case, the money for the most part (or even completely) should go to the community rather than be simply divided among individuals. Germany’s payments went to the state of Israel to make a state for all Jews (for the most part it went to the state, imo).
// A German today can justly say. “I had nothing to do with that. I was not born then.
An Israeli today could justly say: “I was not born then. Palestinian refugees aren’t my problem.” Yes or no?
Of course, an Israeli, unlike a German, can’t do it in practice. But the theoretical question still stands.
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Regarding history, prior to 1922 there were no nation-states in the region between what is now Turkey and Egypt. It’s not even clear that Afghanistan and Iraq qualify as nations in their current geographical configuration. There’s actually of choice of “histories” that could be used to inflame passions.
Helping the Palestinian state probably isn’t optional to achieve any kind of permanent ceasefire. If you believe that people do whatever they feel is in their best interest, if there is no hope, then a phantom reward in another world will seem superior to current existence. As long as that perception lasts, murder will continue.
Yes, young Israelis and new immigrants could deny any responsibility for the crisis, with justification. To me, that supports the notion that we have to deal with the current reality rather than a past we cannot change.
Finally, in most wars/revolutions, society is segmented into three parts: (1) those who want change, (2) those who are against change, and (3) those (usually a plurality or even a majority) who simply want the fighting to go elsewhere. I think that’s as true of both Israelis and Palestinians as of every other society in history. Unfortunately, only one of the three segments gets much PR. If/when the other two groups achieve a voice, then there can be peace.
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I insistently recommend Ta-Nehisi Coates’s article. He explains that this isn’t about actual money being paid to anybody. What is crucial, he says and I agree completely, is to have a discussion, an acknowledgment, a public recognition. He explains this in detail and at length.
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As for Palestinians, I’m not sure what they are doing in the discussion. Reparations have to do with an abuse that happened in the past, not the kind that is on-going.
As an example, it makes no sense to discuss Russian reparations for invading Ukraine in February of this year. However, if 10 years ago there had been a national debate in Russia that acknowledged – with words, not money – the atrocities inflicted by Russian imperialism on many countries – the invasion of today would not be happening.
While a conflict is continuing, it’s useless to discuss reparations. So let’s not mix up these equally important but still very different issues.
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I certainly understand your point, although it is more straight forward to provide redress at the time of an event rather than 50 or 100 years later. For example, would we still have the tension between Pakistan and India if people who were displaced at the partition had felt properly treated? Same with the refugees of the creation of Israel. Would reparations now actually fix any of the problems resulting from the original arrogance and ineptitude? Doubt it.
I really think ladyleahjane is onto something. Reparations are designed to make someone feel good. They actually don’t fix anything. The funds involved are never enough to provide adequate compensation to victims or their families, and most of the money never reaches them anyway.
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We wouldn’t so easily dismiss “feeling good” as totally insignificant to our own lives, would we? To the contrary, we rarely see anything as more important as feeling good. Feeling good actually solves most of the problems while feeling bad creates them.
This is not about money. See the topic on Newark as it’s very related to the issue.
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“An Israeli today could justly say: “I was not born then. Palestinian refugees aren’t my problem.” Yes or no?
Of course, an Israeli, unlike a German, can’t do it in practice. But the theoretical question still stands.”
Well, the difference is that about 70 years ago, the Germans were made to stop, by force, what they were doing. Perhaps their younger generations have developed a historical distance from it.
Whereas, your state CURRENTLY engages in its shitty practices, quite proudly. So what the fuck are you talking about it ‘not being my problem’? You’re complicit in something that is happening right fucking now, jesus christ.
“As an Israeli Jew, I can’t be for destruction of my own Jewish and democratic state by inviting all Palestinian refugees back.”
I like how the mere existence of people different from you is cause for ‘destruction’ of your state. Imagine someone here saying ‘As a white woman, I can’t be for the destruction of my cultural heritage by having black and brown people in the country’. You know, in America, only klan members voice their racism so directly. Even tea partiers make some effort to cloak their racism.
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I haven’t written that it isn’t my problem. It is. I wouldn’t lie – most Israelis, me including, would love to live in an alternative reality, in which Palestinians would be as our problem as current Syrian refugees. The imagined reality of empty land waiting for Jews to return. I know it wasn’t so, and that while some Palestinians decided to leave themselves, others were forced to flee.
// I like how the mere existence of people different from you is cause for ‘destruction’ of your state.
Have you read the letter exchange I have recently linked to? Here it is:
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1400258684/
Would love to hear your honest position / response to those 2 letters. You talked a lot about the issue, but I honestly still don’t understand your position. Are you for immediate creation of the Palestinian state or for refugees returning to Israel’s territory? Or both: create a Palestinian state and let everybody who wants go to Israel?
// Imagine someone here saying ‘As a white woman, I can’t be for the destruction of my cultural heritage by having black and brown people in the country’.
The situation of African-Americans is so extremely different from the Middle East conflict that I don’t want to try and force comparisons. I understand that since Americans deal with the heritage of slavery, they may tend to project their reality into others. Lets better talk directly about the two letters from Middle East.
If you go to Uri’s site and read his most recent column, you may discover an Israeli Jew who cares and whom you may want to read. Seriously. Here it is:
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1400845261/
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I read the letters. Uri’s suggestions sound good to me as an outsider. Is there a shared support for these ideas?
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// I like how the mere existence of people different from you is cause for ‘destruction’ of your state. […] in America, only klan members voice their racism so directly
Nothing in USA’s self-definition prevents African-Americans from becoming The Quintessential American, except past and present racism. For instance, Obama is one (by definition as a president).
However, Europian states self-define as nation-states, and the usual situation is one nation per state. Examples to the contrary tend to lead to a state’s division. For instance, Czechoslovakia’s “peaceful dissolution into the Czech Republic and Slovakia on 1 January 1993.” [wiki]
A better example would be: Europian country X doubling its population by receiving people from country Y, and completely changing its self-definition from “nation of people X” to “country of X-Y.” Would you expect from France to receive 67 million (its current population) of Japanese / Muslims / etc, who would demand from the country to change its self-definition? If French people would object and say they want to continue having a state of their own, would you call it racism? Honestly?
In general, I think you often project on me some things you feel strongly about. You call me “racist,” and it’s your right to think so, but if you accuse me, I would love *you* to express your position. We could *both* express our views and honestly confront the results of our visions for the future. A question of intellectual honesty and could potentially create interesting discussion, instead of name-calling and mixing unconnected issues together. And insightful discussions are what we are here for, after all. 🙂 Who knows, we may be not as different as you think.
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// We could *both* express our views and honestly confront the results of our visions for the future.
It also could let you influence others on the blog. 🙂
May be, Clarissa will open a thread for that, so both of us won’t spam this one. 🙂
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“If people find it so hard to get it through their thick skulls that there are no innate differences (other than in the way their reproductive systems work) between men and women…”
Funny, because there are many other very obvious differences: just consider average height of men and women, or average muscle mass. But, “progressivism” is all about substituting fantasy for reality anyway, right?
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No, it isn’t. Feel free to explore what the word “progress” means by using a dictionary. Or were you sharing your fantasy?
As for height, for as long as humanity existed, men were fed better than women. We are only seeing the result of long-term social engineering.
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// As for height, for as long as humanity existed, men were fed better than women. We are only seeing the result of long-term social engineering.
Are you 100% sure? In many animal species males are larger a bit, despite feeding the same.
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I really prefer to leave the animal world out of the discussion because we don’t have a single person among us who is qualified to discuss it.
All I know as a layperson is that the goose who lives next to my office doesn’t eat until her male partner brings her something because she can’t get up and leave the eggs.
And a heavily pregnant animal is as miserable and clumsy as a heavily pregnant person. In the meanwhile, the pregnant animal is feeding the foetuses and then the litter with her body.
Although, the human beings have destroyed their links to the animal world, so none of that is even important.
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height is part of sexual dimorphism – no one is saying that women ( on average) have as much facial hair or testosterone as men. Behavior is what matters and humans have this cool ability to modulate their behavior and learn based on their surroundings and cultural norms.
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Although, the human beings have destroyed their links to the animal world, so none of that is even important.(Clarissa)
Lmao. Well, not completely. Some do still like it doggy style.
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I think a good example of how *not* to do the process of reparation can be found in Canada’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission regarding Indian Residential Schools. I was partially involved with the commissions in Victoria and Vancouver, and the feeling I got from it wasn’t so much that those involved were contrite about what happened, but they were demanding forgiveness from the survivors so they could feel better. I almost feel like it would have been better and more genuine if it had been initiated by the survivors instead of shoved down their throat by the feds.
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“it wasn’t so much that those involved were contrite about what happened, but they were demanding forgiveness from the survivors so they could feel better”
Yep.
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Which is precisely why I keep saying that the reparations are not even remotely as useful to the victims as to the perpetrators. It’s an act of kindness on the part of the victims to accept them.
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An act of mercy, really. Like any amount of money could ever right those wrongs.
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Im curious, were the ones involved actually responsible for what happened?
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// I read the letters. Uri’s suggestions sound good to me as an outsider. Is there a shared support for these ideas?
He is extremely Left in Israel, so I don’t see how a shared support can exist.
// My latest proposal is for the Israeli president to apologize…
I think it will happen one day in the future.
// Israel should organize the return of 50,000 refugees every year for ten years. (I am almost alone in Israel in demanding this number. Most peace groups would reduce that to 100,000 altogether.)
Don’t think this will ever happen. Instead of allowing anybody to return, there are 2 different mainstream discourses:
1 – Right wing: Application of Israeli Sovereignty Over Judea and Samaria
http://www.janglo.net/index.php?option=com_adsmanager&page=display&catid=87&tid=257874
2 – The “triangle” plan, which seems to be Israeli mainstream:
Israel has raised the idea of transferring parts of the territory in “the triangle” southeast of Haifa — along with the hundreds of thousands of Israeli-Arab citizens who live there — to a future Palestinian state in return for annexing West Bank territory including settlement blocs, Maariv reported on Wednesday.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-reportedly-offering-land-and-its-300000-residents-to-palestinians/
The entire above article is informative and worth reading, imo.
Of course, I suppose nobody will ask the Arabs of the “triangle” whether they want to wake up as a part of Palestine.
// All the other refugees should receive compensation on the lines of the compensation paid by Germany to the Jewish victims. (No comparison, of course.)
I don’t see it as happening either.
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// In the not too distant future, when the two states, Israel and Palestine, shall be finally living side by side, with open borders and with their capitals in Jerusalem, perhaps within a region-wide framework, the problem will lose its sting.
That’s my dream too, and of many Israelis. Dream of peace.
Two opinion surveys conducted by different Israeli pollsters in December show that most Likud-Beiteinu and the further-right Habayit Hayehudi voters would support a peace agreement establishing a demilitarized Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders, Israel’s retention of major settlement blocs and a division of Jerusalem. The two polls also revealed that two thirds of all Israelis support such an agreement.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/poll-most-rightist-israelis-would-support-palestinian-state-dividing-jerusalem.premium-1.490926
Uri, as usual, is too optimistic. “a region-wide framework”? Look at Syria and at other failed states, dictatorships, around us.
I hope Stringer Bell will respond to letters. If he challenges my position, even if not always understanding me correctly, I would love to understand what *he* thinks should be done in practice.
May be, if you posted the link to letters and a reference to my explanation of Israel’s position (as far as I understand it, I am not an expert) in a separate post, more people would discuss?
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// Of course, I suppose nobody will ask the Arabs of the “triangle” whether they want to wake up as a part of Palestine.
Now I googled and found:
Afif Abu-Much, a high tech specialist, 32, a resident of Baqa al-Gharbiyye reacts to the idea:
http://www.talschneider.com/2014/01/07/afifenglish/
A good article about the “triangle” plan, which deals extensively with the above letter and gives more information about Israeli Arab discourse:
Liberman’s skilled, cynical ‘Triangle’ maneuver
http://www.timesofisrael.com/libermans-skilled-cynical-triangle-maneuver/
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// // All the other refugees should receive compensation on the lines of the compensation paid by Germany to the Jewish victims. (No comparison, of course.)
//I don’t see it as happening either.
I do see compensation being paid to the Arabs of the “triangle” to convince them to agree to stay in their houses and join a Palestinian state.
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I see that idiots on another site are commenting that the raging 22-year old’s problems stem from “cultural marxism”. What nonsense. Do they suppose that if women were kept under very traditional circumstances, say in a harem, that a 22 year old would be permitted to have sex?
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Yes, his millionaire daddy was a total Marxist.
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It’s amazing how people rant against their interests. Like “restore the nature order, restore the natural order!” But even in their own views, the natural order is that ten percent of the men — the so-called alpha males — use up all of the women. So, well, that IS the natural order, then. NO point yelling about restoring it.
But what about a modified social order? Can’t have that either. That would be “cultural marxism”.
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The really hilarious thing is that these fantasies about “alpha males” always come from skinny, diminutive, nerdy weakling dudes.
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and all their attempted solutions make sure that they are doomed. They tend to demand that extreme conservatism be imposed, but the evidence shows that when this happens women are referred to as “useless things” and the men go prowling for little street urchin boys. See the situation in Pakistan.
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Very true. But maybe their secret fantasy is to be found and devoured by a big alpha male.
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